The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

[Patches]

One question that’s burning in my mind with regard to Iraq (okay, one of many, but this one keeps bounding to the forefront) is, why now? Iraq threw UN weapons inspectors out of the country in 1998 – that was a _long_ time ago. I won’t buy the argument that the “mistake” of allowing this defiance of UN Resolutions on disarmament is being corrected now. Diplomacy is the way to settle disputes, the use of force only when necessary and only after a good long hard thunk at every possible alternative, and maybe not even then. Bombing Iraq back to the Stone Age is not the answer, and unilateral action of the countries involved cannot be justified.



What scares me most about this conflict is the breakdown of international unity and the failure of the participating nations to work on accord before action. I had a bunch more thoughts on this, but basically I’ll end up echoing what’s already been said.



Lisa, I just read your post, and that’s exactly where I was heading with this. What also troubles me deeply is the knee-jerk reaction to dissenters. It’s not limited to the US either. At the Summit held in Ottawa, Canada (my nation’s capital) last year, the government erected fences around the conference building and brought out armed guards who used tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse the crowd gathered to _peacefully_ protest. What the hell happened to the right to peaceful assembly and the right to disagree with our governments’ actions, without fear of reprisal. These are sad and troubling times when those who speak out are labelled traitor. This, above all the rhetoric tears a hole in my gut, we’re (being the collective ‘forward thinking’ west) supposed to be ‘fighting’ to prove the worth of our way of life (freedom and democracy) and at the same time we’re tearing it asunder. I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg.



I feel the stir of Orwellian rhetoric shifting through the sands of time surrounding us. Do we not remember that the majority of those responsible for the terrible acts carried out against the US, were Saudi nationals. Can someone please draw a line between September 11th and Iraq, I don’t seem to be able to connect the dots – I’ve gotten lost in the hyperbole. We’ve lost so much history, most of it recent. Forgotten are the days the collective “we” armed Iraq against Iran. Here’s something to mull over(from New Internationalist) – Iraq The Facts, Issue 316 – September, 1999: “Sales of weapons to Iraq - Many of Iraq’s weapons were sold to it by the West, even during the period after the Kurdish massacre in 1988. Before the Gulf War, Iraq was supplied by a number of countries including Russia, France, Brazil, the US and Britain. German companies sold components for purifying uranium as well as materials for Iraq’s mustard and nerve gas.”



The other thing is, a lot of the suffering of the Iraqi people in the past 12 years is a result of UN sanctions. Infant mortality rates have tripled, maternal death rates doubled, and everyday approximately 250 people (mostly children under 5) die. Before the Gulf war, Iraq was a thriving nation; it had a strong economy and a relatively decent standard of living for its people – they were our ‘friends’. Unlike Iran (who used to be the bad guys) the Iraqi people thrived. Also, unless I’m mistaken – entirely possible as I’m relying on memories from 13 years ago – Iraq was exercising its rights under international law in claiming Kuwait as an historic protectorate.



I guess the argument is if SH had backed down and followed the conditions of the peace, much of the troubles the Iraqi people have endured would not have happened. Before anyone’s blood boils too quickly, I don’t like the politics or actions of SH, I think they’re deplorable, but I fail to see how this action, outside the blanket of the UN, is going to solve anything. All I see is it creating more trouble, in more places, with and for more people.



Many believe as I do, and many do not. In all this, I hope we all remember, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Evelyn Beatrice Hall Friends of Voltair, 1906. I don’t think these words could ever have held more meaning than they do now.



Be safe everyone.



Patti



ETA. Sorry I couldn't get the html link to go to the site. If you want to read the whole article, go to site and use the search function, type ‘Iraq facts’ which should bring you to the article, http://www.newint.org/

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Edited by: Patches at: 3/21/03 1:06:47 pm

[daddykat]

May ruffle some feathers.

The whole build-up was preposterous. I'm sure Saddam was willing to sell to al-Qaeda, but I doubt if he had anything they couldn't pick up easier elsewhere.

The fact is, whatever gets put inplace in Baghdad after this can't be worse than waht's there now. And the UN embargo will end. Saddam and his cronies used it as an excuse, the Iraqi people didn't have to suffer the way they have, it was mainly due to the leaders skimming off what COULD come in, but still it was one of the main grievances groups like al-Qaeda held against not just the Us but the entire West. (and are these results worth the people being killed to bring them about?; no way, in my opinion.)

Saying it's "about oil" is, I feel, too simplistically Marxist for this day and age. Oil is valuable but not all that rare yet and there's no real economic purpose to waging an expensive war just to control one producing country.

As to "fatally weakening the UN" I'm just not convinced that the UN really accomplishes that much on the big political issues anymore, or that it ever can. The obvious example is Sudan, where slavery and slave-trading are open and major parts of the economy, sitting on the UN Human Rights Commission. WHO and soem of the UNESCO programs and some other things work well and I think they cna continue even if the political arm declines.

The rhetoric about "treason" btohers me a lot, but it's not really worse than partisan rhetoric has always been in this country. During Monica's War, which conveniently started after the House and Senate investiagtions had already begun, several letters to the editor accused Congress fo "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" by investiagting the president during a time of hostilities. Eventually fashions and moods change and the rhetoric of the day always shifts to soemthing else. And Senator Byrd's speech I'd also call rhetoric.

The arrests, some of them, bother me greatly, but remember that the laws in this country aren't settled by who gets picked up by the police or for what, or by juries, or even by legislation. Ultimately, the courts determine what is allowed under the Constitution, and most of these cases are very new. Generally, the courts are only allowing the government to radically expand its powers in cases which can be convincingly placed under martial law categories. We'll see how this plays out and I am concerned about the eventual details. But an arrest is just that, an arrest, and it doesn't actually change any legal principles.

[Kieli]

Of COURSE, Bush not the first leader to start a war abroad. Hitler is just a mere example, I could name others if you like but Hitler just seems to be the most recent example to choose. I don't mind if you care not to listen to me, that is your perogative. True what makes Hitler a monster is more than that. But we aren't examining Hitler the man but Hitler the politician. I find it interesting that Americans should bristle so at the comparison considering we are as much at fault at allowing him get as bad as he was as all the other nations who steadfastly did not want to get involved when the slaughtering was going on. Maybe it's an attempt to assuage a collective guilty conscience when something could have been done and wasn't. But that's neither here nor there. People may tune me out for various reason, how can you know? I maintain that the comparisons are very strong but maybe it's your patriotism that will not allow you to view it as a simple dissection of methodology rather than as an obscene reference to a sitting President. If you tuned out after seeing the words "Hitler" and "Bush" in the same sentence then maybe you don't want as open a dialogue as you suggest.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Garner]

I am not in a position for a long post, but I would just like to say that I do support the Bush administration and the U.S. actions. I believe this war to be both necessary and right at the moment. I am somewhat offended by the Bush-Hitler comparisons. SH is much closer to Hitler than Bush. SH has used nerve and mustard gas on Iranians and his own civilians, mostly Kurds. SH is an evil and repressive leader. Our actions in Kosovo were predicated solely on humanitarian reasosns. Did you all support that, or were you against the actions there as well? The U.S. has launched its share of aggressive wars, and of justified wars, I happen to believe this one falls in to the latter, but only time will really tell.



I do think that it is good that we have a country where people can be skeptical, critical, and question what the government and our leaders are doing. I have no problems with peaceful anti-war demonstrations, though people that lay across bridges and disrupt traffic do deserve to be arrested. It is only when anyone who expressed discontent or opposing viewpoints is arrested that I will start to worry.



War is regrettable and should not be entered into lightly. However, diplomacy cannot solve all problems. We have 45 other countries behind us, we do not act alone. Sometimes doing nothing is worse than going to war.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

Kieli, I didn't say that I wouldn't listen to you, nor that I am offended by the comparison; I was just trying to give you some advice on helping your words be more widely heard. Hitler's name carries much more weight than any other politician or warmonger you could name. He's generally used as the icon of ultimate evil. The comparison was ridiculous when Saddam was compared to Hitler, and it's at least as poor a match for Bush.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/21/03 1:53:55 pm

[Kieli]

One question....who is to say that the claims of the Middle East nations of our evilness aren't just as valid? The problem comes when we try to bend other nations to our belief system. While I've no doubt that Saddam is as evil as they come, we can't lob stones. Our history is just as chequered and I am SO sure there are ton of things our government has done that are just as hideous that we will never know about. Our actions in Kosovo weren't very helpful. People still died by the scores and the UN efforts weren't nearly as strong as they needed to be. The US did not do that alone. We acted in conjunction with the rest of the world. I think the only reason we have 45 other nations behind us is that they're all afraid that they might be next. That's no way to have relations. As far as US justified wars, well, I didn't think Vietnam was justified either. Too many good men died and no one even knew what the hell for. Greed, perhaps? It wouldn't be surprising.



ETA: Thanks DMW, for the advice but I do believe it is unnecessary. People will read or believe what they want to, that much is obvious even by your statement. Even with a logical outlay of comparisons those who are unwilling to see the pattern won't. That's their choice but it's sad to think that NO one could ever be another Hitler. It's very shortsighted and a rude awakening will ensue when it does happen again.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

Edited by: Kieli at: 3/21/03 1:57:31 pm

[sparrow]

While I do have questions regarding the the timing of this action I believe it is completely unfair for these comparrisions between Pres. Bush and Hitler. Wild accustations and name calling never do any good and are childish. This is a serious time and we have valuable personal in harms way and no matter what has gone on to initiate this military action the full campaign has begun and all we can ask for is a swift and complete finale. That our personal come home safe to their families and that we are allowed to finish our task this time so that we do not have to return in another 12 years. Semper Fi.

And yet, I just can't seem to care
Buffy as you know it is over

Edited by: sparrow  at: 3/21/03 2:21:56 pm

[Kieli]

Sparrow, I don't remember calling any names whatsoever. I simply made comparisons that people took issue to. Big difference. I'm sorry if they feel that I've offended them. Different POVs tend to do that sometimes.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[sparrow]

My statement was made to those who have made these accusations and not directed specifically to you Kieli.

And yet, I just can't seem to care
Buffy as you know it is over

[darkmagicwillow]

Why is saying that it's about oil a Marxist position? I'm hardly a Marxist, and my interest in economic history and causes comes from a family of capitalist accountants. Does it make economic sense for the U.S. as a whole to invade Iraq? Probably not, but why do you think that a war would be waged to benefit the U.S. as a whole?



Certain people and corporations stand to gain huge amounts of money from controlling Iraq's oil industry, just as Unocol is gaining now by building the trans-Afghan pipeline that the Taliban refused to allow. Many military contractors stand to gain tremendously from any war. In an effort that's difficult to attribute to coincidence, hundreds of millions of dollars was spent to get Bush elected, coming to a much larger degree from those sources than support for Al Gore did. If you think that political contributors don't get anything for their money, if only by the greater access that congressmen and presidents have admitted that they give them so that their voices are heard far more often and strongly than non-contributors, you're being dangerously naive. It's worth pointing out also that Bush is strongly connected through family and friends to the American oil industry.



The flow of money has always been one of the ways to see how power flows throughout history, and I think, if anything, it's a more important indicator of power in our age than it has been in the past. The U.S. has intervened in other countries throughout the 20th century for economic reasons, generally ones that benefitted a small number of people or corporations instead of the nation as a whole, such as in the 1954 overthrow of the Guatemalan government for UFC. Even when there is a clear moral reason for a war, which I don't see in this case, it's worth looking at the flows of money to understand more deeply why it is being fought.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 7/14/03 4:58 pm

[Kieli]

Sparrow: Ah. My apologies for jumping the gun. I think I need less caffeine.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Grimaldi]

i really hope that when this war is over, somebody in his administration teaches Bush how to handle diplomacy better, because regardless of the outcome, the US is going to need our allies in helping to rebuild Iraq, and to deal with North Korea and possibly Iran

You can't just go declaring shenanigans on innocent people, that's how wars get started!
I'm not stealing, I'm just taking things without paying for them. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?

[maudmac]

We should all be careful, in pointing out what we consider to be the flaws of other people's views, not to attach a label those views, saying those views are, for example, "ridiculous" or "naive" or "ill-informed." It should be enough to simply say that you disagree and explain why.

---

i know there is strength
in the differences between us
and i know there is comfort
where we overlap

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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My opinion is, no one wants war, no one likes war...I seriously doubt Bush woke up one morning and said hey ill think ill invade Iraq so i can piss off the world...He had information and he made a decision based on that information...

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Well none of the people I know that are thoroughly opposed to this war assume that he did any such thing. He had information and he made a decision based on that information, but who's to say that decision was the right one?



That said, people who are against this war or who question it are not per definition anti-american, or pro-saddam or communists etc. I am quite sure I am none of these, but I am opposed to this course of action. Now that there is no turning back I do hope the US will be victorious soon. The only way I can see that happen without a great loss of life on either side is if Saddam's toadies turn around and stab him in the back (literally if need be) and surrender. I'm sure that has happened once or twice in history, and I hope they do it before he takes his entire country with him, and that has happened more than once or twice as well.

Quote:

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The very freedom we have in this country allows us the opportunity to come to this board and say how we feel, without fear of retribution..How many political prisoners are there around the world because they spoke out against their government..



We are not imprisoned because we are gay while in other countries people are..There are people from other countries who would give their right arm to be living in the United States right now regardless of this war...

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The fact that the US is a better place to live in than many other countries in this world does not really relate to the politics being discussed here, like whether the reasons for starting this war are justifiable or not. What we said in the first post is that there are many people here from many different countries and none of our countries are perfect. When you point out that your country is better than others it can become tempting to others to point out the ways in which your country might be not be better than others. That's not what we want.



This board exists because Xita and Zelda created it, this is an internet community where people from every race, gender, age group, sexual preference and country you can think of post. There are limits to the topics that can be discussed and the way we discuss them (like cursing each other senseless isn't allowed, though it could be considered freedom of speech). The freedom we have on the internet is to go where we please and to stay away from places that don't suit us. Too bad the world can't be like that. Many people are bound by lines on a map, they can't choose where they can go.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 3/21/03 4:06:08 pm

[lauriebear]

Daddycat wrote:

"The fact is, whatever gets put inplace in Baghdad after this can't be worse than waht's there now."



I have to disagree with this. In fact, I think we have to be very vigilant after the war to make sure someone worse doesn't come into power.

Is SH bad? yes of course, but once he is removed there will be a power vacum, and there are for more fanatical people out there then SH. This is one of the many reasons why the Arab govs. are against this war.

I would argue that the Taliban was far worse than Saddam. SH is a pirrah no doubt, but someone worse...oh yeah, just look at his sons!



Someone was commenting on what the U.S. teaches in schools. And you are right. There is this book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and it is about how history is portrayed today in America's school. Iconism. Leaving out the bad parts. Very interesting read. There are fundamental problems in all of our text books.(To me anyway..if I wasn't teaching music, I'd be teaching history)



Is American a nice place to live? sure. Are there problem here?absolutely. But what right do we have to tell other people how to live. Democracy works here because it came from the people. Britain did not decide that for us. WE did and fought for it. So I see many problems with democracy working for Iraq primarly for that very reason.



I miss Clinton

[Patches]

Garner, I’m certain if I knew you personally, I’d love you to pieces, but I really have to disagree with your post. Consider this a counter from the Far Left.

Quote:

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SH is much closer to Hitler than Bush. SH has used nerve and mustard gas on Iranians and his own civilians, mostly Kurds. SH is an evil and repressive leader.

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Two thoughts. First, SH has these capabilities because he was given them by the allies to use against Iran. Nothing done about SH in the 1980’s and later, when all this was happening – why, because nobody cared, SH was one of the good guys. Why was nothing done in 1989 after the Kurdish Massacres? You can’t expect us to believe that the administration wasn’t aware of the _kind_ of leader and man SH was when multi-millions of dollars worth of arms and aid were being delivered after he took power. So now he’s an evil and repressive, but he was supported and funded when it suited America’s purposes. As for inhumane weapons – thermobaric bombs work by sending out a powerfully concussive force that sucks the air and the life out of anything or anyone in its path. Unlike conventional bombs, the pressure waves from the secondary explosion are sent out at supersonic speed and can actually turn corners, so there’s no where to hide. Can you please explain to me what the difference is between these devices (or cluster bombs) and nerve or mustard gas (besides who has their finger on the trigger). Second, SH doesn’t hold a candle to Idi Amin, the butcher of Uganda – remember him, he slaughtered over 300,000 people, most of them for sport, in eight years. Remember also that his bloody coupe was heralded in the west because president Obote was unpopular. This was twenty five years ago. The last article (1999) I read stated he was living in all-expense-paid luxury in Saudi Arabia (Jiddah). Why is nothing being done to bring him to justice – it’s not like there isn’t anyone in Saudi Arabia who couldn’t take him out to stand trial for crimes against humanity. Fine, this is the past. Let’s look at the present, in places that aren’t sopping with oil. If you want to talk about repressive regimes, tyranny, and slaughter, take a look at Sierra Leone, where the life expectancy of the population is 26 years of age. Take a look at what’s happening in other African nations, the bloody wars and the brutal wholesale slaughter of civilians, whole villages wiped out in the name of ethnic cleansing. People starved (and are still starving) to death because of corrupt administration, the dictators who murder opponents and overthrow democratically elected governments. I haven’t seen much of that on CNN – why are there no troops massed on the African shores to restore democracy to these countries, oh, ya – no oil.

Quote:

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Our actions in Kosovo were predicated solely on humanitarian reasosns. Did you all support that, or were you against the actions there as well? The U.S. has launched its share of aggressive wars, and of justified wars, I happen to believe this one falls in to the latter, but only time will really tell.

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No, actually, I didn’t support the action. But I tend not to favour any kind of conflict and certainly not one where the combatants have anything other than swords and shields. And it wasn’t an action of the United States anyway. Kosovo was a NATO operation, done with the support of the NATO Allies. The action against Iraq carries neither the support of NATO nor the UN. It doesn’t compare.

Quote:

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I do think that it is good that we have a country where people can be sceptical, critical, and question what the government and our leaders are doing. I have no problems with peaceful anti-war demonstrations, though people that lay across bridges and disrupt traffic do deserve to be arrested.

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Yes, I’m certain that’s exactly how the British felt in at the Boston Tea Party. Damn those colonists for clogging up the harbour. Good god, that one of the most famous protest against government in history. I guess the British should have sent more troops to arrest the demonstrators. You’ll have to pardon the heavy sarcasm here, but please – think about what you said. You don’t mind demonstration, as long as it doesn’t get in the way – good lord, that’s what protest is about. It’s not convenient; it’s not supposed to be convenient. The purpose of demonstrating is to make people stop and take notice of what’s happening.

Quote:

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It is only when anyone who expressed discontent or opposing viewpoints is arrested that I will start to worry.

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You should be worried, because that’s what’s happening. The rhetoric has started, anyone who dissents is being labelled a traitor – and treason is the worst crime a citizen can commit. Peaceful demonstrators are being touted as criminals.



War is regrettable and should not be entered into lightly. However, diplomacy cannot solve all problems. We have 45 other countries behind us, we do not act alone. Sometimes doing nothing is worse than going to war.



Yes, war is always regrettable. How would anyone know about diplomacy, it’s hasn’t been tried. There wasn’t a diplomatic solution offered, there was an ultimatum. The German inspectors pleaded for more time, they said the inspections were working. I think this is where the heart of the problem. There are 45 countries backing this action, but there are 195 countries in the UN – it’s not exactly like an overwhelming mandate for action.



Garner, I realize that I am about as likely to change your mind on this subject as you are to change mine – fair enough. However, I’d really like to hear more of your thoughts on why you think the war is justified. I know you said you didn’t have a lot of time when you composed the original post, so if/when you find the time, please continue and expand your point of view.



Cheers!!

Patti

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

[TemperedCynic]

War is never an attractive method to resolve conflict. At one time almost 50 years ago, America prided itself on its learned diplomats. Today, Americans find themselves divided on almost every grouping - religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, political party. Not to mention every topic - war, abortion, rights (be it civil, women's or GLBT).



There is no longer the need to find compromise and consensus with the other side. In politics, just vote your side into office and steamroll your agenda through. Religion has always used power to move their agenda.



And so, we're divided. And after 9/11, we're also scared. For Kittens in other countries, this fear of terror/unknown has been present for decades. America hasn't healed psychologically, yet. That's why war rhetoric seems the plausible way to move forward. This also leads to other conservative agendas that are less palatable, like individual rights. Yet, the left hasn't shown stellar insight, either. Stopping traffic throughout the world will not necessary endear you to the people your cause needs to convince.



America hasn't had to deal, before 9/11. And we're at war, the reasons for going are irrelevant. So, if you dislike the war, lower the rhetoric and volunteer for something worthwhile. Something you believe in. It helps, believe me. And if you support the incursion, great. But understand that just because someone disagrees with your position, it doesn't make them your sworn enemy.



Using Hitler in any discussion will send the discussion spiraling out of control. Kittens should not be divided. There is a place for everyone on this rock.

---

More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

Edited by: maudmac at: 3/21/03 6:43:21 pm

[reyjawk]

First off a few historical facts:

The UN was not formed until after WWII. Prior to WWII was the League of Nations. Woodrow Wilson helped form the League of Nations. Which the US never joined! It collapsed on the eve of WWII.



I do think comparisons of Bush to Hitler are off. But I will say that the legislation that Ashcroft has been pushing thru since 9/11 scares me. And they should scare every person in this country. Now hearing the heat that the Dixie Chicks are taking just confirms my fear.



What really kills me about this whole thing of people burning the Chicks CDs and calling people who disagree with the president unpatriotic is that our founding fathers did far worse things. They didnt just burn flags they burned people in effigy!!! Most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be held for a military tribunal if they were alive today. I believe a true patriot is one who challenges their country. I am not saying be destructive. I am saying analyze what you are told. Ask yourself, why is this suddenly and issue? Why are we doing this? Who really has to gain....



This country was founded on ideals. We were not founded on heredity or religion but an Idea! Now through out our history we have often fallen far short of those ideals. After all we are a nation made up of human beings. Very fallible human beings. But the difference I have always thought between the USA and the rest of the world is that we TRIED to be better. We were in a constant struggle to be a democratic light in the world. To be a place of oppurtunity and equality.



Yes the US has been involved in many "little" conflicts were we could be termed the aggressors. We wont even discuss the American-Indian wars, but the difference is we have never on such a massive scale invaded another country without provocation.



Yes SH is evil but the thing is PRECEDENCE! Pre-emptive strike...Who is next? Are we going to go after Iran? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? What about North Korea? I mean they are over there threatening us right now...And what if a democratic government forms in Iraq and they are hostile to us. What then? Will we invade again? War should always be the last option.



We are undermining the UN when we need an organization like it the most. You have to love this logic:

We are going to defy the UN to enforce its mandates...ok...



I really do think we could of gotten the rest of the world with us if we hadnt been so arrogant in the beginning. We have a president who is openly hostile to the international community. He has pulled us out of treaties right and left since he was sworn in. He has squandered what good will there was towards us after 9/11.



Does anyone else think it is ironic that he kept us from joining the world court?



I am worried for the world. I think the current administration is doing eveything in its power to undermind the UN when we need it the most. The world's armies are too powerful not to have an over reaching organization to enforce rules and laws. I had such hopes for the world. It seemed as though we were moving towards an international justice system. Which in my mind brought us closer to a truly global society. I have always thought that a terran government would be the outcome of evolution. But I believe all the progress that has been made in forming a global community is being torn asunder by fanatics, dictators, and egos.



Sorry this rant was a confusing mess but there are soooooo many issues going on here. I do not think you can say this is good and this is bad. Because the world is so full of grays right now....



Oh and is anyone else sick of CNN? You can tell they are upset that things arent going worse. So far the only news organizations I can handle are the BBC and NPR. They just tell the story and let me form my own opinion.



The other, other Toni

"Take this cup away, for I dont want to drink its poison..." JC Superstar

Edited by: maudmac at: 3/21/03 7:40:05 pm

[dekalog]

I'll prefix my post with I'm firmly against this war, and do believe that the media is cheerleading. I think that perhaps if all those reporters who are following the army around spent some time living with ordinary families in Iraq they would perhaps see that answers are not so simple.



Really though I wanted to address the idea that I've heard that there is nothing I, as an ordinary person can do.



"Nobody made a greater mistake than they who did

nothing because they thought they could only do a little."

- Edmund Burke



This is a very pertinant quote that should motivate everyone to do whatever they can to stop this war if they believe it is wrong.



I found the following site very informative and inspiring:



"101 Ways to Stop the War on Iraq"

www.earthfuture.com



It contains all the email and letter-writing addresses, peace movement contacts, and everything that anyone could need to stop the US governments attempt to force the world into a war that many average citizens of the world do not want.



Also if I might - to my fellow CAnadains who do not want to see our government cave to pressure and abandon their principals - One of the easiest and probably most effective things we can do as Canadians

is: I can't believe I'm saying this - Thank Chretien



Please call the Iraq desk in Ottawa 1-866-880-4378 to thank Chrétien for his refusal to join Bush's war. Tell them you are proud to be Canadian as a result of the PM's firm stand. They faithfully take your comments and convey them to Chrétien's office.



I think it is important that as many supporters of peace as possible send plaudits to Prime Minister Jean Chretien in order to let him and his government know that we fully support his honourable stand on the Iraq situation....



If you feel inclined to send him your comments, he can be reached in the following ways:



Mailing Address:

The Right Hon. Jean Joseph Jacques Chretien, P.C., M.P.

Room 309-S, Centre Block

House of Commons

Ottawa, Ontario

K1A 0A6

Telephone: (613) 992-4211

Fax: (613) 941-6900

E-Mail: pm@pm.gc.ca



Please call! (Sorry about the the length and the Canadain Content)



Peace, Love and All Good Stuff,

dekalog

[xita]

Yes I think people can make their point without resorting to using Hitler, right or wrong. It sort of diverts the issues.



I am always amazed that when people use their freedom of speech to criticize the government , the criticism begins. You should be happy here because you have the right to say what you want. But if you don't exercise it, what good is it?



I know well perhaps more than most how much worse things can be for someone in war torn countries, and that is precisely why I criticize the American government. I like it here, I am happy here, I want my nieces and nephews to grow up and have it at least as good as I have it now. I fear recent actions will change that. In fact I am fairly certain that things already have and there may be no easy fix. If we don't speak up now, we could lose the freedoms we enjoy. You only have to listen to the coverage of the war to understand how marginalized criticism has become. Leaders in position to do so are afraid of being classified as Un-American and have essentially been silenced. It is the most American thing to do to expect more to criticize. It makes me so angry when it is suggested that people shouldn't gather to protest because they give a terrorists a good target for attack. That is the lamest excuse ever used to silence the opposition.

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

[Kieli]

I disagree very firmly that the Hitler "comparison" diverts the issues. But I'll leave it at that since I am obviously of the minority on that matter. I could examine it in detail but why bother? because even many of the arguments here support my "comparison". Ah well, that's what opinions are for. They're like assholes and everyone's got one including me. I'm done discussing it. This stuff is all over my TV screen like bad chop socky movies. I'm gonna turn it off and go to bed for a week. Maybe by then all of this madness will be over.



Have fun, Kittens. Bed calleth.



T.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[friskylez]

Dr G i wasnt saying that this country is better than any other, i fully realize that there are kittens from all over the world on this board..I was simply stating that there are worse places to live and we have it pretty good for the most part..Thats it..



Kieli, I know there are sodomy laws, i have many gay male friends..None that i know of have ever been arrested because of those laws..That is not to say it couldnt happen, but we are more free to be ourselves than those in other countrys...



I have no idea why the protesors were arrested, i wasnt there were you? Perhaps they broke the law, i dont know..If they didnt and they were wrongfully arrested, the charges will be dropped...



I was arrested during the Rodney King protests and i wasnt doing a damn thing wrong..The charges were dropped...Was i happy to have spent 8 hours in jail, nope, pissed me the fuck off...



As for we brought 9/11 on ourselves, i really have to say that one stuns me.....Whatever..



Just so ya know, i havent said anyone who is against this war is "anti American/un American" nor have i meant to imply that..



Conversely the fact that im proud to be an American and support our troops doesnt mean im pro war or even pro Bush...I didnt even vote for the man..



I dont think ill be back to this thread...It has been interesting to say the least, reading everyones opinions

"Life is what happens while waiting for your ship to come in"

[urnofosiris]

I didn't read it that way when I read the post I was quoting, the way you phrase it now might have prevented some of the responses you are quoting. I did not mean to say that you accused anyone of being unamerican for disagreeing btw, my statement was a general one and I tried to separate it from my reply to your post. I should have phrased that more clearly seeing as I said it in between two quotes from your posts. Phrasing can be tricky in these kinds of discussions.

Quote:

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posted by verdant



I ask this in all sincerity to any Germans out there. How did your parents/grandparents deal with the shame of having been part of a country that perpetrated such acts?

---

I am not German, but my grandmother was and her father was murdered by the Nazis in Buchenwald, he was just a German man who spoke out against Hitler. My mother had to suffer for being half German and growing up in the Netherlands. I don't think anyone has to be ashamed of the country they live in, I don't think anyone should judge an entire nation or it's people because of the acts of a government or a (small) group of people from that nation, even if that government was elected and not a dictatorship.

About another point you made, the US is being promoted as the big evil again by some countries or groups, and I fear that this will result in new terrorist attacks on US civilian targets, but to me nothing, ever excuses that, and nothing the US has done or is doing right now can make me understand why someone might go out there and blow up innocent men women and children, I know it happens, but I can never understand it, and that is why I feel no country ever 'deserves' it, if that makes sense. The only ones responsible for terrorism are terrorists. That doesn't mean I don't think we should be critical of our countries or governments and voice that criticism.

Quote:

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posted by xita

It makes me so angry when it is suggested that people shouldn't gather to protest because they give a terrorists a good target for attack. That is the lamest excuse ever used to silence the opposition.

---

Someone actually said that??? That is so ridiculous and whoever said that would not be to happy if someone else said 9/11 had to happen because those big buildings were just begging to be flown into. Bah.



I think continued criticism is a good thing, even now the war is under way, and even if you support this course of action, any war that gets fought should be looked at very closely and critically, because after all that has happened in history the same mistakes are still being made, maybe because reading about it on paper isn't as impressive as seeing it happen before your eyes, so maybe now that history can be recorded it with something other than a pen it won't be rewritten too much by the victor to make it seem prettier than it was. I know a lot of spinning is still being done, but that is where critical examination can be very useful.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 3/22/03 2:21:05 am

[cassiopeia191]

Kieli, I think we basically agree on this and I share your opinion that we need to be careful and actually learn from our past. I am German and every Nazi reference makes me nervous -- here in Germany, calling someone a nazi means that you've run out of arguments and desperately want to hurt the other person. At school we spend an enormous amount of time on 1933-45 and the background history and like it's been said before, only in a few countries do people learn exactly how gory and horrifying their history was and this certainly one of them. This supports the thesis that history is written by winners since I couldn't see this kind of self-criticism concerning American involvement in wars anywhere in US schools. I think this a point that lauriebear has raised before.

This is another thing that bothers me immensely: how the US can judge every country but not direct this criticism towards itself. In my opinion, that's hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance, all blended together.

OK, I think we can stop this discussion now, I just wanted to say that while I might agree with you, the education I've received here and the feelings most German have about their country's past make me balk at Hitler comparisons. (added: a member of our government, Minister of Justice Herta Däubler-Gmelin, had to resign after such a comparison between Bush and Hitler).



I saw the pictures of the bombardment of Baghdad last night and it seemed almost obscene to watch a war in which people are killed live via TV...it looked like the millenium fireworks gone horribly wrong, bringing destruction to a city that used to be one of the most striking ones in the Arab world. It seems like 200 civilians died last night. Bush must be so happy.



Verdant, you said:

Quote:

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I ask now -- is there any half-way intelligent American who still wonders why 9/11 happened? I'll say it again -- As awful as that event was, America brought it on itself.

---

I see how people don't want to hear this, after all this is quite a provocative statement, there is truth to it. Terrorism is a reaction to something (ironically enough, usually it is a reaction to war) and the US foreign policy is crafted in such a way that aggressions were predestined. Before Sept.11, Americans could tend the thought that the world loved them --not true, unfortunately. And really, I can see why people oppose to the States that much...it is a sentiment that has been growing stronger here in Germany as well for the past months. Did I already mention the arrogance/ignorance-mixture that makes it so hard to like this country, at least politics-wise? Of course, I'd never say or think that the attacks were deserved and like Garfield said, only the terrorists can be held responsible for it. What I intended to say was: Sept.11 was not as surprising as one would think first and America has acted in a way that produced aggressions -- but this doesn't mean anyone is justified to go around and kill innocent people, no matter where in this world.

Quote:

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I ask this in all sincerity to any Germans out there. How did your parents/grandparents deal with the shame of having been part of a country that perpetrated such acts? Americans are going to need your support and insight in the coming months/years/decades -- however long this drags on. National shame is a very weird feeling to be a part of.

---

For my grandfather, those years were maybe the happiest of his life or at least the ones that influenced him the most (he was born in 1921). He firmly believes that the Wehrmacht consisted only of soldiers who revered honor (another similarity to this war?) and would never do anything immoral. Yet, he admits that the German government was a gang of bastards that led the German people into misery (quite a lot of them followed them voluntarily, though). Funny thing is that although he was supposed to see them as inferior, he just about fell in love with the Russians and the Balts and still sings their praise.



It is not easy to have a history like we do as Germans but I am glad that we seemingly learned from it, it made us critical and it is talked about. We dont just say 'Nah, that's no fun, it makes us uncomfortable, let's stop talking about it.', there is such at thing as public awareness.

This time now might be the first time of my life that I feel something like pride for my country and my political leader's decisions because it shows that we have indeed "learned our lesson".





The UN consists of 191 countries so in my opinion it's crap when the US talks about how so many 'friends' are with them and support them. First of all, one might overthink why those countries support the US (how does i.e. Poland feel when it sees Putin and Schröder shaking hands...it is normal to stick to the US considering Cold War history). Second, 41 (or 45, I think the former) countries of 191 isn't quite that much, especially considering where China, Russia France, Germany etc. stand. In fact, it's a very small number because, you know, the US has chosen to ignore the United Nations as long as it can't be used for their purpose.

Third, in 14 out of 15 countries in the UN Security council, a majority of people is opposed to this war. It shows quite clearly that no matter how much the US conjures the image of a strong "coalition of the willing", public opinion voices says the opposite. What a great democratic system we have...



One might want to think about the way the war is presented to us, the pictures we see (and which we are supposed to see), the news (not confirmed)...journalists are said to have no direct access to information because this sector is completely controlled by the US government. It shows an image of this war which is what they want us to see...manipulation through media at its best.



All this talk about the US being such a good place to live in: I agree and disagree. It is better than most places, okay, but it often seems to me that Americans tend to think of their country as the superior nation and best democracy in the world -- that's something that I have a problem with it. Right now, I most certainly don't think that the US is the best place in this world to live in and one look at US history shows a lot of things that don't justify this feeling of superiority.

I have voiced my personal feelings about the US earlier but I also can't handle exaggerated patriotism very well.



Something completely different: The military actions in Kosovo were neccessary to prevent yet another genocide in this region. This topic was mentioned before.

"Oh, isn't life a terrible thing, thank God?"

Edited by: cassiopeia191 at: 3/22/03 4:31:15 am

[maudmac]

There's no doubt in my mind that, in the future, what kids in American schools will learn about this war will be mostly lies. As lauriebear said, Lies My Teacher Told Me is very interesting, indeed. It's mostly a critique of high school and college textbooks, but it's also a good resource for the truth about some American history.



('Bout to go off on a tangent here, sorry.) I do fault James Loewen, though, for not touching at all on the issue of how Hawaii actually became a territory of the US. I suppose he can't possibly cover every issue, but it would be nice for Americans to understand that our 50th state was annexed at the urging of a group of sugar farmers, overthrown and occupied by US Marines. The US just took a sovereign nation, and imprisoned their Queen, in an act of war. For sugar.



President Cleveland, horrified by what had happened, apologized to Queen Liliuokalani, and said this: "By an act of war, committed with the participation of a diplomatic representative of the United States and without authority of Congress, the government of a feeble but friendly and confiding people has been overthrown. A substantial wrong has thus been done, which a due regard for our national character, as well as the rights of the injured people, requires we should endeavor to repair."



The minute he was out of office, though, President McKinley approved the annexation of Hawaii.



Yes, that was over a hundred years ago (and this isn't the Hawaii History Thread, I know)...but...well, it's to comment further on the point that, as others have posted about, this current war comes in a long line of similar actions. Because what happened in Hawaii in the 1890's has hardly been the only time the United States has inserted itself into another country (to that country's detriment) for selfish reasons. The US hasn't learned a thing from its own history.



I can't help but feel that might be, in part, because every single one of us has been lied to about our history. So, in fifty years we'll have a couple generations of as-yet-unborn Americans who'll have little choice about what to believe about all of this, because they'll only be getting one side, and an immensely flattering (to the US) side, no doubt.

---

i know there is strength
in the differences between us
and i know there is comfort
where we overlap

[dekalog]

cassiopeia191 I'd like to take your point re support for this war and take it one step further. My country neighbors the United States and the pressure for us to support this war has been intense - economically. You see American is our largest trading partner, and politicians and businessmen here are frightened about the possibility of retaliation by the US for not supporting this war.



Many of our media outlets pick up the American feeds so much of what we see is from American TV. The coverage done by our own broadcasters focuses on the price that we will pay for not supporting Bush, and the calls by many that if you are protesting or challenging this invasion you are anti-American. Which is complete bullshit.



I think that anyone quoting support of the US action should also think about how much backroom talks and negotiations about economics have played into this support. The US is very powerful - in terms of relevance to the economies of other nations especially its neighbors - and yet even with threats of retaliation Mexico and Canada do not wish to support this. I think this is very telling.



As for history - each country has its own atrocities - the thing is to learn from them. Germany, the States, Iraq, (Canada in its treatment of its Native people just one example) every single country has had butchers, and people that callously thought that they were doing what's right but really only served their own agendas. That is one of the reasons that I feel the UN IS important and IS relevant.



Everyone needs checks and balances. Talk and discussion is good - and we learn from it, and we come to understand how other nations feel and respond. Some of the most intelligent comments about this war have come from some of the members from Africa who have seen first hand the impact of another country imposing its will on another - if these voices were given an iota more time from the media to express their views - perhaps the average citizen would understand how much we like to send our shared world history under the mat.



Someone earlier mentioned Wag the Dog - too true, but its deeper than that. I think its interesting that in taking the two major heads of states involved in this attack - the way in which they are arguing their points is very different. Tony Blair makes arguments and explains his position, and while I don't agree with him, I can at least see his points and am understanding his opinion. The same cannot be said for Bush however. He doesn't explains he speaks of his position as if it is the only way, the righteous way, and the way for a moral country to go. The thing that bothers me so much about Bush is how much he has tied his own religion and morality into this - this is what I feel is frightening. It reminds me of Nicaragua,and Grenada, and.... but with his media machine tying this attack with 9-11 it brings it to a further level.



Terrorism is unjustifiable - from anyone. People need to stop linking this war to 9-11 though - it is two separate things. The only way in which they are connected is that is has made the American public afraid and the US government ripe for an act of aggression to make someone pay for what happened. It is upsetting to see how many people are buying this line.



This is long - I apologize. I guess in the end I'm upset because of the innocent people - 200 so far today who are being killed in this game. While I agree that SH is a tyrant, I also don't feel that another country has the right to invade - he has not attacked the US and has no means to do so. Sanctions placed on Iraq have hurt the population of Iraq hard and many are starving, this situation has only deepened their suffering.



Long term who will be there to clean up this mess - and before you quickly say that it will be taken care of - look at history and then answer. You actually don't need to go far - Afghanistan after intervention from many was left after outside forces fought on its land, and they floundered and were left high and dry by those who said they would provide assistance leaving them ripe for the likes of the Taliban and Ossama Bin LAden. Now that attention has shifted from Afghanistan and now is on Iraq how much care is being paid to rebuilding? How many countries can you blast apart by bombs and leave lying asunder?



Listening to the UN delegate from Africa I fear for the answer.

[J uk]

This was written by Terry Jones (from Monty Python):

Quote:

---

I'm losing patience with my neighbours, Mr Bush



Terry Jones

Sunday January 26, 2003

The Observer



I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I!

For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is.



As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.



Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours.



They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want!



And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us.



That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.



Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq.



Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror. What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves.



Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims?



It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out.



My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up.



Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come.



It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

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[Garner]

I will try and respond in a bit more detail Monday when I am not at work. At least my workplace still allows me access to the Kitten Board!



Xita mentioned protestors being maginalized and unfortunately I think that when anti-Bush people start comparing Bush to Hitler they automatically start marginallizing themselves. This is such a patentedly untrue and false comparison that I certainly am dismissive of their argument. Many others are also. There are better ways to criticize Bush and his actions than to start this sort of comparison.



As for protesting. We had both a anti- and pro- war demonstration here and both were peaceful, loud, got TV and radio coverage and put forth their views. That's what a protect is supposed to do. Let people know you have a different opinion and why. However, if the protestors chain themselves to the door of my store so I can't work, or customers can't come in, they have exceeded their rights and should be arrested. Similarly if they block access to my workplace or for customers to get to my workplace. They do not have the right to deprive me of my livelihood. There are right and wrong ways to demonstrate.



I also agree that the U.S. has supported its fair share of corrupt, evil and repressionistic regiemes. We sided with Stalin in WWII and he turned out to have killed more of his own citizens than Hitler killed in the Holocaust. Politics forces harsh choices on any government. For example the French were involved in trade negotiations with Iraq for work in southern Iraq that could have amounted to 100 billion dollars of trade. If I were the French that would make me less inclined to support an US action in Iraq. Don't think that France just has moral objections, there are other factors involved too. It's one of the reasons I don't blame them for not supporting us. They also have a sizable Arab population and that is an important point as well. My point here is that it is very hard to get a world consensus of action. Each country has its own problems, viewpoints and priorities. I don't think waiting for the entire UN or even the Security Council to back the U.S. was necessary. In the end we have to act as our interests dictate. Will that mean we might make mistakes? Yes. Does that mean we never take any action? No.



I am glad that at least now in the modern world, through the internet and better communications that more viewpoints can be heard and that maybe the instances of war can be reduced. But I will be very surprised if they are ever totally eliminated.



Garner

[Kendahl897]

I don't like Bush, but I wouldn't compare him to Hitler..Hell' as much as I hate Joss, I wouldn't compare him to Hitler either..My problem with Bush is his 'John Wayne' mentality. He's gonna do what he wants to do and I don't think he really gives a damn what the rest of the world thinks....and that, my friends, is dangerous..But I also think Bush is cocky enough that what goes around will come around...Because, while Bush will win this 'war' and it'll probably be over with in a month at the most, a year from now, if the economy hasn't begun to turn around dramatically, he's going to wind up like his father--a one termer. Waving the flag will only get you so far...

[reyjawk]

For once a short reply from me. I just want to add this to our discussion on the US and Iraq.



"The road to hell is paved with good intentions..."



Toni

"Take this cup away, for I dont want to drink its poison..." JC Superstar