It's stick that in your Pope & smoke it

[darkmagicwillow]

Andrew Sullivan points out conservative America's hypocrisy on how they listen to the Pope about gay and straight sex:

"What's maddening about this pope's signature gay bashing is this: When the pope — the dead one, the next one, the one after that — says something stupid about homosexuality, straight folks take it to heart. The church's efforts have helped defeat gay rights bills, led to the omission of gays and lesbians from hate-crime statutes, and helped to pass anti-gay-marriage amendments. But when a pope says something stupid about heterosexuality, straight Americans go deaf. And this pope had plenty to say about heterosexual sex — no contraceptives, no premarital sex, no blowjobs, no jerkin' off, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial insemination, no blowjobs, no three-ways, no swinging, no blowjobs, no anal. Did I mention no blowjobs? John Paul II had more "no's" for straight people than he did for gays. But when he tried to meddle in the private lives of straights, the same people who deferred to his delicate sensibilities where my rights were concerned suddenly blew the old asshole off. Gay blowjobs are expendable, it seems; straight ones are sacred." - Dan Savage, in his often-brilliant weekly column. Yes, the only theological argument against gay sex is identical to the argument against almost all straight sex now occurring in America. But it's easier to beat up on and discriminate against fags, while giving straight sodomites every protection of the law.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

YEP!! When it comes to hypocrisy, no-one does it better than religious organisations. I agree completely with the article and how that hypocrisy shines throught hat allows people to comment negatively on a gay person dead from AIDS and to cast derogatory remarks about who he or she was and the life they led but dare say something angry about a religious leader and those same people will condemn you for having no restraint or respect. I think they should look in the mirror before casting stones.

Tara & Willow Together Forever!!! Blessed Be Eternally!!!

[Gatito Grande]

My heart breaks for LGBT Roman Catholics.



GG Remember, the gay-lovin' Episcopal Church welcomes you Out

[sam7777]

No surprise there with such a right wing cardinal's college. At 78 years old, he won't last as long as JPII but the next one will be no better.



RATzinger is a right wing dontinaire who calls other christian churches "deficient":

German Doctrinal Overseer Ratzinger Elected Pope

Quote:

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German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the strict defender of Catholic orthodoxy for the past 23 years, was elected Pope on Tuesday despite a widespread assumption he was too old and divisive to win election.



He took the name Benedict XVI, a cardinal announced to crowds in St. Peter's Square after white smoke from the Vatican's Sistine Chapel chimney and the pealing of bells from St. Peter's Basilica announced that a new pope had been chosen.



Roman Catholic cardinals elected Ratzinger on just the second day of secret conclave to find a successor to Pope John Paul II.



Billed as the front-runner going into the conclave, Ratzinger, 78, was widely seen as a standard-bearer who would fall short of the required two-thirds majority and have to cede to a more conciliatory compromise figure.



But he sounded very much the candidate before going into the conclave on Monday, defending orthodox Catholicism and warning the other 114 cardinal electors against following godless modern trends.



"We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one's own ego and one's own desires," he declared at a pre-conclave Mass in St. Peter's Basilica.



Ratzinger's stern leadership of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the modern successor to the Inquisition, delighted conservative Catholics but upset moderates and other Christians whose churches he described as deficient.



Born in Bavaria on April 16, 1927, Ratzinger was a leading theology professor and then archbishop of Munich before taking over the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1981.



In that office, Ratzinger disciplined Latin American "liberation theology" theologians, denounced homosexuality and gay marriage and pressured Asian priests who saw non-Christian religions as part of God's plan for humanity.



In a document in 2000, he branded other Christian churches as deficient -- shocking Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestants in ecumenical dialogue with Rome for years.



As dean of the College of Cardinals, he presided over John Paul's funeral Mass and the daily meetings of cardinals to discuss the next papacy.



Ratzinger was the oldest cardinal to be named pope since Clement XII, who was also 78 when he became pope in 1730. He is the first German pope since Victor II (1055-1057).

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It's becoming apparent to me that being LGBT is incompatible with being Roman Catholic. The more they tighten their grip the more people will slip thru their fingers and find a truly loving God elsewhere.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[Warduke]

This says it all...

Quote:

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President Bush on Tuesday called newly elected Pope Benedict XVI a "man of great wisdom and knowledge."

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[TemperedCynic]

Quote:

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In a document in 2000, he branded other Christian churches as deficient -- shocking Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestants in ecumenical dialogue with Rome for years.

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This doesn't surprise me, since it was the more liberal Vatican II Catholics opening up that dialog over 30 years ago. The conservatives were appalled with this – Catholicism was the ONLY religion, they railed.



I’m remembering the prophecies of St. Malachi in the Middle Ages and Fr. Malachi Martin, known as THE exorcist of “The Exorcist” fame, talking about the small number of future Popes. Who knows, maybe the three-fold law works on the Church as well – one can only hope.

---

More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

[skittles]

my immediate reaction to the news was "Oh, Nooo!!!"

skittles



"The problem with political jokes is how often they get elected."



"Closed minds always seem to be connected to open mouths"

[tybee317]

I am disappointed in the Cardinals choice for Pope. Is it me, or does it seem that the lots of folks are regressing (i.e. Bush, the Roman Catholic Church). Personally, I believe the Cardinals were throwing the snaggletooth old dog a bone.

___________________



If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hand!

[Tempest Duer]

At least he's old, and will die soon.

I got bitten by a drunk lesbian! Does that mean I'll turn into one?



~my friend Mary

[urnofosiris]

Not to soon I hope, then we´d ´have to´ mourn him too because according to a 100 or so other old men he is the one to lead and represent the millions upon millions of Catholics (and basically everyone else in the world whether you believe in any god or not) who have absolutely no vote or voice in his election and he ´deserves´ to be respected because he is the pope.

Give him a little time at least to empty out churches everywhere and damn everyone to hell, because certainly there will be very few people left who have not done something that is morally wrong according to his views. Though probably everyone can be forgiven if they ask for it, except if you´re gay, that´s just evil. Somehow I do not expect him to have a different view on that.

Edited by: DrG at: 4/20/05 10:06 am

[gspiggott]

This is wretched but not surprising news. Even if this old creep dies soon , the cardinals who voted for him almost all of whom were appointed by JP2 will just pick another reactionary dinosaur.

[sam7777]

gspiggott: Yep. This is why I continue to look forward to a day when who is pope doesn't matter.



Even in a short papacy, the RAT can do alot of damage particulariy in Africa. His election has already done damage to relations between catholicism and other christians given his "deficient" characterization of other's faith's.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[urnofosiris]

I would not be surprised if this one is going to make me wish old John Paul the 2nd were to come back from the dead and become pope again, just like I´d vastly prefer Ronald Reagan to be the US president again over George Bush the 2nd.

[umgaynow]

So...how do we feel about the fact that this guy was A HITLER YOUTH!!!!!!! Is anyone else scared? See him standing on that balcony before the adoring throngs...Today the church tomorrow the world...eeep!

[Urn of Osiris]

I was just told about his Nazi youth assiciations. WTF?? I've never been so scared.



Check out this article.





He never fired and shot and Clinton never inhaled. When in Rome... right?

Urn of OsirisA new idea is delicate. It can be killed by a sneer or a yawn; it can be stabbed to death by a joke or worried to death by a frown on the right person's brow. Charles Brower

[gspiggott]

A singing fascist who appears on balconies, why do I get the feeling that nothing good will come of this.

[WebWarlock]

As a differing point of view I offer a bit of wisdom from a man I consider to be one of most brilliant men of the 20th century, Carl Sagan. He said this in his fantastic book "The Demon Haunted World" about Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black.

Quote:

---

"When permitted to listen to alternative opinions and engage in substantive debate, people have been known to change their minds. It can happen. For example, Hugo Black, in his youth, was a member of the Ku Klux Klan; he later became a Supreme Court justice and was one of the leaders in the historic Supreme Court decisions, partly based on the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, that affirmed the civil rights of all Americans: It was said that when he was a young man he dressed up in white robes and scared black folks; when he got older, he dressed up in black robes and scared white folks."

---

Hugo Black ruled in favor of more civil rights and individual rights rulings than any other Supreme Court Justice, including "Brown vs. Board of Education".



In the late 60's an 80 year old Black sat for an interview. He said joining the Klan was something you had to do in Alabama in the 20's and 30's if you wanted to get a job or even get by. He said, and I'll never forget this, when he sat on that bench he was held to only one thing and he held up this old, beat up leather bound pocket sized copy of the US Consititution.



Now. Will Pope Benedict XVI display similar trends? Doubt it. But I have learned time and time again not to pre-judge anyone.



It should also be pointed out that as a youth he was not given a choice to join the Nazi's. At that time you either did or you were killed. You can talk about standing up for choices and higher morals all you want, but he was 14 at the time. And just to point out another thing he did desert the Nazi's even thought that meant death as well.



I can let him slide on the Nazi issue, but not on choices he made as an adult Cardinal.



But not being Catholic, this is nothing more than a spectator sport to me.



Warlock

Web Warlock, web.warlock@comcast.net, The Other Side.

Liber Mysterium: The D20 Netbook of Witches & The Dragon and the Phoenix: New Adventures of Willow and Tara

"Thats some powerful goodness." - Frozone, Mr. Incredible and Pals

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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But not being Catholic, this is nothing more than a spectator sport to me.

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Sorry, Tim, but this is flat-out wrong. Especially if you're queer, or a reproductive-age woman (but even if you're neither), we're all in the game: Ratzinger's team has the ball, and a juggernaut front-line which will crush anyone in their path. After all, they're led by a man who wrote (and I quote) "The Church must make claims and demands on public law" ("Church, Ecumenism and Politics," 1988).



GG Demands, via LAWS, on the public---you and me---get it? Out



As I've written (ad nauseam!) previously on the K, the RC Church in Michigan spent almost a million dollars (the largest single "Yes on 2" funding source), to make me a second-class citizen, by taking away my rights to civil marriage: nothing "spectator" about that!



Agree w/ others above: seeing all those morons in St. Peter's cheering him, there was a distinctly "Triumph of the Will" smell about all of this. After all, Ratzinger was born and raised in the shadow of the Beer Hall Putsch: Sig heil, Mein Papen-Fuhrer!

[WebWarlock]

Ah, but you see, I did say me. Not anyone else.



Besides, how long can this guy live anyway? He has had health problems already and add that to the stress of this job.



And secondly is he any worse than the the other corupt Pope of the past? Somehow we still got this far.



I don't see "the mighty Catholic Church" with it's 2000 years of history. I see a ploding, slow moving institution that will collasp under it's own weight and smother itself in under 50 years.



That is if some nut doesn't get ahold of a dirty nuke and do us all in first.



So yeah, we both say the world is fucked. I am just saying that this guy is just one turd in vast sea of shit. And really, who knows what he will do?



Warlock

Web Warlock, web.warlock@comcast.net, The Other Side.

Liber Mysterium: The D20 Netbook of Witches & The Dragon and the Phoenix: New Adventures of Willow and Tara

"Thats some powerful goodness." - Frozone, Mr. Incredible and Pals

[urnofosiris]

I do not hold his WW2 history against him, unless other proof appears that shows he was more than an unwilling participant like most German men, women and boys were. What I do hold against him is this:

Quote:

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"Having seen fascism in action, Ratzinger today believes that the best antidote to political totalitarianism is ecclesiastical totalitarianism," he wrote. "In other words, he believes the Catholic Church serves the cause of human freedom by restricting freedom in its internal life, thereby remaining clear about what it teaches and believes."



Benedict's hard-line position is well known. He has been outspoken in opposition to liberation theology, homosexuality, feminism and moral relativism, and has asked Catholic legislators to fight a growing movement to legalise same-sex marriage.

---

So totalitarianism is ok for him, as long as he is being the totalitarian. Given the horrible times he grew up in and witnessing what that kind of regime can do to the world first hand, I find that attitude utterly incomprehensible.

[seurat]

I would agree G that the Hitler Youth membership and even his brief time in the Nazi army are not particularly worrying. It seems to be a pretty general thing for German boys of the time. In terms of his attitudes he seems to be a carbon copy of JPII, which is bad news for most of us and bad news for the church as well. I wasn't expecting much of a change, but I did think they'd be smart enough to come up with somebody who could at least appear to be more open to moderation on issues like female ordination, contraception and priests getting the right to marry. No such luck.



If it makes anyone feel better, it doesn't appear that the crowd in the Square that night was as thrilled as you have heard. Several reports indicated the response was actually pretty muted, and lot of people were merely applauding the fact that a Pope had been chosen and not showing any great enthusiasm for this particular Pope. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned here his attitude to wards Rock music, which he thinks is Satan's music. So true. I believe I'll go play some, really loudly, right now.

"Life's complications and frustrations/they disappear when the music starts playing/I found a place where it feels alright/I hear a record and it opened my eyes/do you remember what the music meant?" - Speakers Push Air, Pretty Girls Make Graves

[Urn of Osiris]

Perhaps it was not a choice, but the fact is he has the Nazi mentality. Reading that article, I had to keep reminding myself that those words came from the pope. This guy is the ruler? WTF? His backward thinking and extreme attitudes are the most terrifying I've read, and mirror those of the Nazi era. I'm sick to my stomach trying to find middle ground. It is impossible for me to see any positive in his "extreme rulership."



Perhaps I should kick off my shoes, get knocked up and cook dinner. I can't pretend that he wasn't infused with the most hateful messages during the most impressionable years of his life. You don't forget hating like that. Clearly he hasn't. He can pretend he didn't fire a weapon, but he still marched and participated. This should have helped him see the wrong in that kind of singlemindedness. Instead he turned his back on everything he saw and became as extreme as his mentor.



It is shameful. This is power tripping of the most Nazi kind. Just curious to know if we wave or salute this guy. Heil Benedict! *raises middle finger*





** statements here are the authors own opinions. **

Urn of OsirisA new idea is delicate. It can be killed by a sneer or a yawn; it can be stabbed to death by a joke or worried to death by a frown on the right person's brow. Charles Brower

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

Okay, a little perspective here.



I don't like the new Pope and his views regarding the LGBT community, contraception, abortion and women BUT I do not think that attacking him on something that was a part of his youth which, as a young boy in Germany, he would ahve been unable to avoid without serious consequences to him, possibly even death.



Now, I don't like the man and will no doubt condemn him for many of the things he has said recently and will no doubt say in the future but I will not use his service in the Hitler Youth against him. He denounced that group and Hitler and I accept that.



Now, as to his idea that freedom comes from totallatarianism (hope I spelt that right) I simply cannot and will not agree with that. Freeedom by restricting freedom is an oxymoron.



So please, Kittens, I ask that we deal with the man that is, not the young boy brought up in a different time and place that he ahs denounced.



Benedict can be shot down for many things without us bringing up irrelevant parts of his past.

Tara & Willow Together Forever!!! Blessed Be Eternally!!!

[Urn of Osiris]

I suppose I would see it as irrelevant if his ideas didn't mirror those of that time. He had a real opportunity to use his childhood experiences and give everyone equal respect. Instead he has been part of the extreme hatefulness of the papacy. This guy has power. Now he has Absolute Power. It'll get ugly. We all make choices in our youth. I didn't live what he did. Am I angry. You bet! I'm angry at the double standards. I'm frightened that the man who should be the most open minded in the world (modeling Christ) is a vicious liar and hate monger.



His father opposed the Nazi party and still this guy became a member. I guess that in any position of power, you can spin away your sin as the ignorance of youth. I won't ignore what his participation in that movement taught him. He is sending a very loud message that those teachings are alive and kicking in the Catholic church. Hitler wanted to eliminate groups of undesirables. I can see our grand pope inciting the same hateful messages.



Clinton didn't inhale? Bush showed up for duty? Pope Benny never actually shot his gun? It all smells like bullshit to me.

Urn of OsirisA new idea is delicate. It can be killed by a sneer or a yawn; it can be stabbed to death by a joke or worried to death by a frown on the right person's brow. Charles Brower

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

I think unless we have lived in that time and understood the circumstances, we cannot make snap judgements as to the pursuits of his youth.



Now, I agree that his experiences should ahve made him wiser than his current worldview would suggest, and I agree that he could do an awful lot of harm with the power he now wields. What I cannot agree with however, and maybe it is naivety on my part, that his servie in the Hitler Youth is directly or indirectly responsible for his actions ehre and now. I think that other factors have become the forefornt of his current hate campaign.



The real problem though, is that by his being German and using the term "Nazi" as others have done, we are in danger of re-opening old wounds and re-labelling the German nation, who ahve tried very hard to wipe the dirt of Hitler's leadership. By all means call the new Pope a "fascist", call him "homophobic", call him a "hardliner", call him a "neo-conservative right-wing extremist" if you must (I personally call him all of the above) but I think we open too many old wounds by calling him "Nazi".

Tara & Willow Together Forever!!! Blessed Be Eternally!!!

[Urn of Osiris]

The use of the term is offensive, but in my eyes accurate. His statements today, mirror those of a leader that quietly sucked the life out of half the world. If I don't express my concerns, I am saying I approve. As a Catholic woman, I do not!! The fact is that he was a member of the Nazi party, no matter how small his role. I don't think he picked up his intolerance studying the life of Christ.



Watch him now. Look at the right hand of PJPII. He has moved into dangerous territory when it comes to hate. He justifies doing evil in the name of defending it. Those deeds directly defy what he should be devoted to teaching. From what I have read he has devoted his life to power; achieving it and using it to serve his best interests. He knew when to ally himself, and who to do it with. It has been suggested that he has done good. I'll get my microscope out to find it. In my eyes the true spirit of his position is lost.



I was taught to love above all else, to allow people to choose, to make mistakes and learn, but mostly to live and breathe without judgement.



We are not allowed to exterminate others because they live life differently. That's the Nazi way. It is also the new order of business in Pope Benny's regime.

Urn of OsirisA new idea is delicate. It can be killed by a sneer or a yawn; it can be stabbed to death by a joke or worried to death by a frown on the right person's brow. Charles Brower

[skittles]

Urnie, Pope Benny??!!!



Thank you for annointing him with that wonderful moniker!!



Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!



It is so appropriate... in my humble & lowly opinion...



Now I have to stop laughing!!!

skittles



"The problem with political jokes is how often they get elected."



"Closed minds always seem to be connected to open mouths"

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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What I cannot agree with however, and maybe it is naivety on my part, that his servie in the Hitler Youth is directly or indirectly responsible for his actions ehre and now.

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Not responsible, the opposite in fact, his youth, living through that time should have taught him how horribly things can go wrong when a totalitarian regime takes over.

Quote:

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The real problem though, is that by his being German and using the term "Nazi" as others have done, we are in danger of re-opening old wounds and re-labelling the German nation, who ahve tried very hard to wipe the dirt of Hitler's leadership.

---

Like I had already said before you posted, I do not hold his WWII record against him, unless other facts come to light that show he did more than what he claimed, more as in something that would go beyond being a soldier in a war he did not ask for. I would not call him a Nazi (but I agree with Urn of Osiris about her assessment of his mentality). If someone does however, that in no way equals labeling all Germans or their nation. It had not even occurred to me until you brought this up. If this is happening elsewhere then that is out of our hands.

It is a sore point for me. My mother´s grandfather was German, he was actively opposing the Nazi´s and he died in Buchenwald for it. My mother, aunt and grandmother were imprisoned and finally freed by the Americans. I was born well after the war obviously, but I know what my family went through, I have heard all the German trashing growing up, the generalizations. We´ve moved well beyond that now and it never happened and is not going to happen on this board. So no one need worry about that or let it restrain you from discussing this pope, his past and his actions.



I need to stop editing now, I am giving myself a headache.

Edited by: DrG at: 4/21/05 2:06 pm

[jsr]

I'm not Catholic, I'm not even Christian. I'm a non-practicing Jew, so perhaps I'm not the best person to comment on this issue, but I won't let that stop me.



My girlfriend comes from a very strong Filipino-Catholic family. Yet despite their staunch devotion to and observance of Catholicism, they are the most accepting family I could ever hope to come across. They absolutely adore my gf and they welcomed me -- a non-practicing Jew -- into their lives with the openest of arms. To be honest, until I met them, I never thought that someone could be a religous Catholic and be tolerant of gay people. They really opened my eyes and showed me a completely different side to Catholicism.



I have attended several masses with my gf and her family -- some inspiring and some less-than-brilliant to be polite. However, in one of these services, I was introduced to a man that I think embodies what a religious leader should be. Father Tom was a man of true compassion who sought to inspire and comfort rather than condemn and control. He wanted to help people understand their place in the world and carve their own paths to happiness. He was incredibly generous and open-minded. He even co-officiated his sister's wedding to a Jewish man. When I spoke to him I never felt as though he was condescending to me or trying to "convert me" to his belief. He respected who I was and just wanted me to have a good time at the mass (which, btw was really beatiful with lots of singing and acoustic guitars -- very lesbian if you ask me.)



When I contrast priests like father Tom with PJP and now Pope Benedict I am truly sad. The Catholic church as an institution resembles an antiquated feudal government run by antiquated totalitarian dictators. I hate the power that this institution wields. I hate that it attempts to influence my government's policies (and even more that my President seems to have no respect for the concept of "separation between church and state"). I hate the divide and conquer tactic of missionarism that has made countless indigenous cultures and religions virtually extinct. I hate the abuses of power that lead to so many molested and broken children. It seems as though the church's focus is on converting the universe to a rigid and intolerant world order rather than on helping, healing, and understanding.



Bottom line, I'm sorry that PJP suffered -- but so have countless others, many due to the intolerance (and ignorance) he spat forth as doctrine.



I think it is also sad that the church has chosen to elect someone like Ratzinger to this prestigous office. It speaks volumes to their agenda. I have to agree with Urnie that the whole "he was forced to join the aryan youth" smells like bullshit. I think he was a bigot then and he's still a bigot now -- accept now the "evil" is gays as opposed to jews.



Jill

[gspiggott]

But aren't the Jesuits the ones who say ," Give me the child at seven and I will show you the man." ? So maybe it's not so unfair to hold him to his youthful choices.Hoist. Petard.

Pope Benny has helped discredit some of the more liberal theologians in the church as well as helping to squash liberation theology in Latin America. I can't think of anything positive to say about this guy.