I hate hate!

[ProducerEthan]

I know this probably isn’t the best place to post this, but I feel almost obligated. Forgive me if I ramble a bit, but I need to get this off my chest. Driving home from a friend’s house tonight I stopped at a red light along side a duo of men who were walking and waiting to cross the street. I recognized one as an employee at the coffee shop at my college and upon making eye contact and waving politely I noticed the two were holding hands. I assumed the two were a couple, knowing that the man I knew was gay and that there is a large gay community in the area. After waiting for what couldn’t have been more than 5 seconds after we waved, a large truck with oversized tires and all sorts of over-compensating features began to drive by fairly quickly. The person in the passenger seat, leaning partially out his window threw a handful of fast food trash at the men (which didn’t hit them) and yelled a term I will not repeat, suffice to say it was plenty offensive. Basically I’m just floored that this happened. I’m not gay, but I honestly think I was hit harder by this event than they were. The men on the corner looked confused for a second and then shrugged it off! I, on the other hand, rushed home to vent to my friends and post here. I don’t know. I just think this whole thing is pathetic and I mean it 110% when I said I hate hate.

[bgfilly]

I know what you mean this kind of thing is never good in any way. to say things to a person because of sexuality, color, religion, race, looks is never ever right but the only thing we can do is learn from it and to not make the same mistakes ignorant people make, to teach our kids about tolerence and that its not good to hate to treat each other with respect so that the future generation can help improve these things and who knows what happens from there.

[xita]

Oh I hear you. I have been lucky, i have had friends beaten up, the most I got was, we were egged, but the morons didn't know anything about momentum so the eggs kinda flew past us.. not even close.



Best thing was one time in SF during Halloween, in line for a bar, these guys walked past started calling us names, well some of the butchiest girls you've seen, all wearing leather came up to the guys and the guys quickly retreated and apologized walking away. That was great.



I have been fairly lucky. I am thankful for that.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: (to Tara) I could heal.

Tara: (to Willow)And we’re gone.

[mscheckmate]

Quote:

---

I noticed the two were holding hands.

---

A year and a half ago, my GF and I were in her semi-rural Southern hometown spending Christmas with her family. GF had left her hometown many years before, and wanted to see what gay life was like in 2000. So, we set out to find this town's gay community. Eventually, we found a lesbian, who told us that it was not safe to be an out homosexual in this part of the state. She was talking about murder.



This year, we were in GF's hometown for her dad's funeral. After the service, GF and I were walking to the car holding hands. At almost exactly the same moment, we both realized where we were, and let go of each other.



How sad that a simple display of affection can be dangerous.



edited because I can't spell

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 7/6/02 1:22:54 am

[friskylez]

Producer Ethan, I think most can agree that hate is a horrid thing to be a victim of and to witness..Unfortunately what you saw is just a small example of what goes on in "the real world"...Ive said before gay and lesbians have made alot of progress towards "being accepted" since i came out in 1980, but the hate is still there and i feel it always will be..If things were really better, there would be no Brandon Teena and Matthew Shephard deaths or the countless other incidents we never hear about...The more things change, the more they remain the same...

"Love someone not because of who they are, but because of who you are when you are with them."

[urnofosiris]

Free rant-a-coming your way:



I sometimes try to think of *why* people like that guy that threw that junk act the way they do. I quickly give up because I can never understand the why. We are supposed to be a rational intelligent species. What a fine example that was right there.



And still I wonder what made him do that? When I think of my own upbringing, I do not remember ever being told that being gay is bad or that if someone is gay it entitles me to throw trash at them or call them names or beat them up or kill them even. I'll repeat something I wrote to someone recently: Growing up I was taught the 'facts of life', in and outside of school. There are men and there are women, men love women and women love men. That is the way it is. Except it is not. Sometimes men are women and women are men, or both. Sometimes men love men and women love women, or both. I wish I had been made aware of that as part of those facts. I wish everybody would be made aware of that, so no one would be surprised when they discover they themselves, or other people, are not exactly like the way they're "supposed to be". There would be no need to freak out if we know that this happens, and there is nothing wrong with it.



Willow and Tara did that though, they showed that there are gay people, who are good, who love, and that love is just as beautiful and "valid" as any other love. They taught some very valuable much *needed* lessons and then Joss Whedon comes breezing past and says that being gay is so passé. Yes of course, tell that to those men, I guess they really needed that trash thrown at them to make that clear.



I get very angry at people who throw the trash, but I also get angry at those that would deny that thrash is being thrown or that something needs to be done about it.

---------------------------



"I am giving you what you need, not what you want"
-The perfect excuse to be an asshole

[AutumnT]

Quote:

---

I get very angry at people who throw the trash, but I also get angry at those that would deny that thrash is being thrown or that something needs to be done about it.

---

Because really these people are the most dangerous. The ones who think we should just get over it. Be quiet. Be happy with what we have. Because they believe if they don't see things or if they don't effect them, they don't exist.

Autumn

-----------

It grated, like something forced in where it doesn't belong.

[emma peel]

I understand your outrage and need to vent,ProducerEthan. Welcome to the "real world" that exists in "our world."

I think hate comes from ignorance, but what do I know, as I'm gay and "very passe'"

Too bad pathetic,ignorant little man joss murdered Tara. I hope nothing bad happens to anyone as a result of his little plot device.

Janice

[Kieli]

I am so very sorry that this happened. We've been fortunate that we've only had people shout at us from their cars, and even then, not very much in this part of the state, all things considered. The homophobia here is a very controlled, ugly undercurrent that runs through the community like electricity gone haywire.



On the East Coast (specifically in PA where I lived and grew up), Central PA is the worst for gays and lesbians (not to mention Klan central). I can remember being stalked, had rocks thrown at me, and even was flashed several times by local college "boys" who thought I needed to see what a penis looked like since I obviously had no clue. Not all of this was gay-bashing related (since I am both black and gay, some of this was related to my colour as well....I've been called nigger so many times that I barely blink anymore...isn't that sad?), but gay bashing has increased in that state over the years. That was one of the reasons I left Lancaster, PA.



The problem is, like those men that just shrugged and took it for granted that people will be fucking IDIOTS, I too have took it for granted that there will be people you just can't change. People that, for some illogical reason or other, think that we are a threat to them and lash out because their limited mental capacities have no other way of coping. I'd like to think that maybe someday we can change the world, but I think human nature is far too predictable and too set for that to happen. This type of behaviour has been going on for hundreds of years; people reacting violently and abhorrently to things they are unwilling to understand. What is it going to take? one wonders. I wish I knew.



Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[El Gato]

oy vey.....this kind of thing just scares the crap out of me. i have twqo ,little boys, ages three years and 5 weeks old - and i can promise each and every person on this list that my sons will NEVER behave in this manner. this kind of thing is just...stupid. i've never understood bigotry - but i guess i am just lucky!

to help & to heal, to honor the Mother in all that we do.

[Ressick]

El Gato - it is parents like you that give me hope that hate will not always go onto the next generation. Parents who raise their children to respect everyone, and to not fall into the traps of believing racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all the other -isms are okay, parents like you, are the ones who give me hope that hate will slowly die out. Providing of course that the hate mongers stop reproducing.



Little kids are really the future. And it's our jobs to make sure they don't hate like their elders.



Res, stepping off the soapbox now...



PS congrats on the 5 week old! hope you're getting enough sleep!

****

http://www.ressick.net

"I'm very seldom naughty." ~ Willow

[Lindy]

I am not blaming any parents, but I really wonder what happened to youngsters who already have such hate in them towards people who are different. I mean, what on earth went so terribly wrong that there is no will to understand others, that the natural innocent curiousity human beings actually have .. is gone, and replaced by hate.



I mean, what can be better for little kids than growing up in a colourful word, surrounded by lots of different people. So much to explore. So many things to learn. How can one deny that to their kids. Or anybody. It's against human nature. And my heart aches every time I see or hear of people expressing their hate. It's a sad sad world we are living in.

*********

Buffy: Kill the bad fairy... destroy the bad fairy's
powercenter, whatever, and all the troubles go away? ...

World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing
doesn't change that.

Giles: I have to believe in a better world.

[roamin]

Stuff like this makes me wonder what went wrong in those guys childhood that they think it's okay to:



1) litter

2) have an irrational and almost violent dislike for two men they have never met.



It defies logic, human decency and above all else those true Christian values that so many haters espouse.

I remember when I was growing up asking my mother if there was anything I could do to make her not love me. She thought about it and said "I don't think I could not love you but, if you became a Nazi, my love for you would be sorely tested" Those worlds stuck with me, makes me wonder what kind of message those kids were getting from their parents, and makes me realize how important it is fro me to raise my daughter with a love for all humanity.



It also makes the point why so many of us are upset with ME and Joss over Willow and Tara. Until there are more positive images of gays and lesbians out there ignorance, fear and hate will continue.

Willow and Tara were my light at the end of the tunnel. Turns out they were a train.

[Leaf]

I understand your feelings totally.

A few years ago, when I was doing my GCSE's (High School?) I was greeted one day by one of my best friends crying, it turned out that she and her girlfriend had been told to stop kissing in school. Now if it had been a generalised rule, no-one would have minded, but the fact that heterosexual kissing is allowed, and not even thought about was the reason why my friend was crying.

Now I got angry, and grabbing my two friends we walked around the school, trying to find someone we could complain to. Each person that we met, when confronted, shied away and told us to go to someone else. Even the person who had complained in the first place.... My friend's girlfriend split up with her shortly after this.



The thing that annoyed me most, was not the bigotry (though that ran a close second), but the fact that when these people were confronted they knew that complaining was wrong in the first place and pretended that they hadn't done it.



Heh, just my own little rant...



Leaf

[Loco2]

in my crappy opinion, people who do this kind of thing are nasty, bitchy, shallow individuals. these are the kind of people who don't so much have companions and friends, as are sad enough to try and fit in by being asses to those different from themselves. they are either trying to impress someone (i've noticed i only get picked on or hit or something when there is such a crowd that you cannot fight back, i learned this little lesson the hard way) or are quite possibly, themselves, gay. i myself, am fortunate enough to live in a town where i am by far the only dyke around. if someone gives one of us hassle, there are many others to back them up. most of them older than me and very strong/butch. but back to my point (if ever there was one in the first place) these people are sad, lonely, shallow beings who think that picking out gays, they are rising themselves above us. the most aggravating thing of all, though, is that they really believe they are the best of us. top of the ladder. but i find it best not to dwell on this, it can prove extremely depressing.



now my rant is added to the mass.



steph



my computer tried to eat this the first time. but luckily i snatched it away in time.

"Dr. Becker, have you seen the skeleton?" "What do you think I am, a skeleton thief? You want to search me?!"
"Who sponsered career day this year, The Brittish Soccer Fan Association?!" - Xander - What's My Line?
"We'll all be a lot happier without the constant whining....Mom, Buffy, Tara, Waah" - DMW to Dawn

[Sheridan]

Quote:

---

I sometimes try to think of *why* people like that guy that threw that junk act the way they do. I quickly give up because I can never understand the why. We are supposed to be a rational intelligent species. What a fine example that was right there.

---

I'm afraid it was Garfield it's all too easy to understand the how if not the why. The key to such things is to convince yourselves and others that the group you hate isn't actually human. The classic example is 30's Germany and the Nazi propaganda against the Jews. Constant vilification convinced the population that the Jews weren't actually people, just a variety of animal that had to be put down for the sake of society. Find a label you can stick on someone and instead of being a 'person' they are a 'queer', a 'nigger' a 'gook', and as such its perfectly ok to oppress, hurt, or kill them. The only cure is to remember there is only one race on this planet and its called 'human', and every member of that race is a 'person'. Hope lies in the reinforcement of that fact, when we fail you have events ranging from the trash throwing incident all the way up to the current troubles in the middle east.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[kukalaka]

I think the biggest problem is the "It doesn't concern me so I don't care"-attitude so many people have. Because only this attitude makes it possible for some idiots to act as if they're representing society.



That's also true for the German population in the Third Reich. The big majority didn't think the Jews needed to be killed, most of them just didn't care enough to even wonder what was happening to their neighbours. And that attitude (or rather non-attitude) is what made the Holocaust possible.



Just my 0,02 Euro and who am I kidding, I can try, but I'll never understand this stuff.



--

What do you think is the biggest problem of our time, ignorance or indifference? - I don't know. And I don't care either.



Edited because I should really be in bed by now.

Edited by: kukalaka at: 7/6/02 6:21:52 pm

[friskylez]

I agree with alot of what has been posted, its ignorance, its the way people are brought up, its fear, not understanding and sometimes, people are just plain assholes...I think the apathy someone mentioned is a major reason these dickheads can still go around harrassing people..

"Love someone not because of who they are, but because of who you are when you are with them."

Edited by: friskylez  at: 7/6/02 10:10:03 pm

[The Rose24]

This kind of thing is PATHETIC!!!!! In 2002?!!!



I am not gay, but people do not deserve to be treated this way. Those guys will get it back somewhere down the line.

As an African-American woman, I can understand these kinds of things, and I am really sorry.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?

[ProducerEthan]

First off, thank you all for writing back, it helps to know I'm not alone on this (even though I knew it already, but you know, helps to hear it). Second, I agree with everything being said and I think that I may have what I think is an answer, maybe. I've noticed a bit of parental blame being placed here and with the other people I've talked to. I also know people who are bigoted and hateful that don't have parents that are these things. I place blame on parents because, as many of you said, we live in a very hate filled world. In a world with this much disgust, it's not enough to not let your child hate, you have to MAKE them not hate! If I had a child and I let him or her make their own decisions about racism or sexism or homophobia, it's very possible they will make the wrong choice! It would be my duty as a parent to instill in them the solid belief that it's wrong to hate. I have to make sure THEY hate hate. I think that's the problem with many parents, they don't teach morals and beliefs. They don't teach equality. The world isn't gonna do it! That's just what I think.



Lastly, and I hope this doesn't piss anyone off, but I was wondering, how does anyone in here who's a minority (not just race, anything. I consider myself a minority 'cuz I'm a guy with long hair!) feel about using derogatory terms? Like I was talking to a gay friend today and he referred to himself as a... well... word that rhymes with "bag" (I hear this is coincidentally a popular word around truck driving trash throwers). I was offended, but he wasn't! I'd just like to know how other people feel about this. Take care, all!

[emma peel]

Hey,ProducerEthan.In answer to your previous question, sometimes I refer to myself as "dyke," other times "gay," "lesbian" or just "queer." If I refer to myself in any of those terms (comfortably, I might add), no one can use them against me and hurt me.

Just my two cents.

Janice

[AutumnT]

Ethan, it is a way of reclaiming that word. It is why as noted we may call ourselves dykes or queer. However it is also one of those fine line things where while it is OK for us to call ourselves that it is not necessarily OK for others. Depends on the use. The closest parallel I find is when African Americans use a word to describe themselves that I would never be caught dead saying. I find their use of what many of us call the "n word" very similar. If that makes sense. Someone please correct me if I am wrong to use that parallel.

Autumn

-----------

It grated, like something forced in where it doesn't belong.

[Lindy]

Well, I figure if minority groups use such words which were actually created by outsiders to this particular group it is because they accept that they are a part of a minority. It's pretty hard to explain, but that is how I grasp it.



If you are gay or black you have to deal with this issue on an every day basis. Some more, some less. You are discriminated against and people tend to look at you funny. Members of those respective minority groups take some kind of pride in using those words, turning them around and so they stop being insulting. "Yes, sweetie, I am a fag, and damn proud to be." Inbetween this group, or especially between people who know each other and now how to deal with each other it creates a bond to refer to each other in that manner.



It remains an insulting word or a degrading expression if outsiders use it/them to purposly show their disrespect.



Well, that's my take; I hope it made some kind of sense..

*********

Buffy: Kill the bad fairy... destroy the bad fairy's
powercenter, whatever, and all the troubles go away? ...

World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing
doesn't change that.

Giles: I have to believe in a better world.

[ProducerEthan]

Well that all makes total sense to me. I do see where you all are coming from, I just don't think I could ever bring myself to call myself a word someone else tried to hurt me with. Like I have long hair, but I wouldn't call myself a 'hippie' or a 'metal-head' or a 'hair farmer' cuz people have tried to put me down with those terms. I may be a bit of all of those things, but I'm not any of those stereotypes, so it feels weird to accept those terms. Like how many Metallica fans do you know that like Tuck & Patty? Or even know who they are for that matter (T&P are a duo. Tuck is the most amazing guitarist on the planet and Patty has a voice any singer in the world would cut off their hands for. YOU NEED TO BUY ALL THEIR ALBUMS!)!? I'm raising my hand right now, so I won't ever call myself a 'metal-head'.



P.S. - Yes, Janice. I 'Cruise', and I 'Cruise' in style!

Edited by: ProducerEthan at: 7/8/02 12:53:01 am

[friskylez]

Ethan it took me a long long long time to be able to call myself a dyke or

even qualify myself as a "butch" lesbian, so i can certainly relate to the uncomfortableness attached to someone using those words..It wasnt until I realized that if i called myself a dyke that i would accept it and it would no longer "smart" when someone else called me that..



As far as Butch goes, well i didnt want to use that to identify myself, negative connotations and all, but it describes my personality, its not "who" i am..Some people get that and some dont...



I will never call myself or identify with the word "queer" though, because by definition alone it implies "not quite normal", "strange" and i personally am not going to relate to a word that says im not "normal" no matter how much it might empower me...There are those in the gay community who embrace the word to

get past the negativity of it, but you wont find me doing it...To each his/her own...

"Pride that dines on vanity sups on contempt"

Edited by: friskylez  at: 7/8/02 6:19:32 am

[Kieli]

You're probably quite right, Autumn. But as for me, as a black woman (or African American woman or dammit all just as a woman in general), I loathe the use of the "n word" in any form no matter who uses it. I understand why people think that, by using the word themselves, it makes it less derogatory. IMHO, by using the word themselves, it makes me wonder if they think less of themselves. Grant it, I am a lesbian. But there is no way in hell that I will refer to myself as a "nigger lesbian" or "nigger dyke" (I really hate that d word) or any of that. I am a gay woman, whose name is Toni. Period. I don't want to be anything other than that...well I probably wouldn't mind being quirky but I digress. I don't want to reclaim the word nigger. I want to someday see it abolished and destroyed. But you know, I can see where people would think that if the person the word is derogatory to uses it, then the strength of the word is dissipated.



Ethan: I happen to be a very avid Tuck and Patti fan How cool that is!

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

[Loco2]

hmm, well i refer to myself as 'dyke' whenever someone asks for a description. i don't think these kind of words are offensive due only to the fact that they are the truth! to me, by calling a lesbian such as that, you are mearly stating a feature, not a shameful secret.



well, it's either these kind of words or 'homosexual', and that word just sucks ass.



in the world today, with all these methods of travel, and universal communication, there are so many minorities that they can hardly be called as such. i think the human race is so mixed and matched, the only true minority to arise would be if someone is born with three fucking heads, or if aliens come to earth or something like that. people are just far too picky.



steph

hmm, ok, while i was typing this, like, seven responses came up. i must be a really slow typer...

"Dr. Becker, have you seen the skeleton?" "What do you think I am, a skeleton thief? You want to search me?!"
"Who sponsered career day this year, The Brittish Soccer Fan Association?!" - Xander - What's My Line?
"We'll all be a lot happier without the constant whining....Mom, Buffy, Tara, Waah" - DMW to Dawn

[urnofosiris]

I think you probably needed to hit refresh page, the posts before yours have been there for a few hours already. So you are not typing too slow, well unless it really did take hours that is.

---------------------------



"I am giving you what you need, not what you want"
-The perfect excuse to be an asshole

Edited by: DrG at: 7/8/02 11:39:14 am

[slayer747]

as for the name-callings... i guess it'll be a long time before the society gets over it. and for the meantime, i've accepted the fact that i just have to learn to live through phrases such as "Kampon ni Satanas" [translation: Child/Follower of Satan] here in my country. It pisses the hell outta me, but then again, I think of all the fun that I'll be having that the freakin Opus Dei guys won't... than yeah...I'm happy as hell!

"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life." - Jessie "Once and Again"

Edited by: slayer747  at: 7/8/02 10:29:14 pm

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by RosenbergLover

---

I'm a frosh in High School, one which happens to be known to have alot of lesbians because it's an all girls school. And I had & quotes on my planner. A couple of the girls in my biology class picked it up and started to read it.



Of course, they read they infamous "We're girlfriends actually" quote. Which I got a series of "That's disgusting" and "How can you watch that shit?" type sayings yelled at me.



Jeez. These are the rudest straights I've ever seen in my life. But then again I'm only friends with one straight person. But I'm only friends with her because I ran face-first into her on the first day of school, got a face full of flaming red hair. (Not joking! It's just like what happened in "Slipping, Tripping, and Falling in Love")



But anyways, she's a look-a-like of Alyson Hannigan, and her name is Allison. She's sooooooooo adorable. She's the only straight girl I'm friends with though.



The rest of my crew are bi and lesbian like me. Maybe because we're all the PTC (Peace Theater Company) members and the PTC is known for being all the gays. I dunno......I just think people shouldn't be so damned biased.



Ya think ?