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T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

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T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby EffieBlue » Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:55 pm

Hi.

I wasn't sure where to post this or even to post it at all. However I know the band TATU have been mentioned several times on the board so I wanted some feedback, comments from people who may have talked about them before.



As I said, I noticed the band mentioned here on the board a while back and went to check out the linked web site. I wasn't over impressed but thought the lyrics to the song "All the things she said" were ok. and I didn't think much more about them.



Until I started to notice articles in the press.

Not so much about the band but about the manager Ivan Shapovalov. And I began to feel very uneasy.



It has taken many years to remove the connection between paedophillia and homosexuality and I think on the whole this has been successful, the idea "All poofs are paedophiles" has to a great extent been erradicated from the general populations way of thinking.



What is happening with Tatu is taking the connection to a new nastier level. Not as perpetrators of paedophillia but as the objects of paedophile attraction.



Perhaps if their manager was standing up damning and objecting to this connection I would feel a little easier. However this is not the case. In fact the total opposite is true. He openly admits to this as being his marketing strategy. He has researched and found a niche and markets the band specifically for it. The "Paedo Pop Market"



From the London Evening Standard Newspaper :-'"Laughing all the way to the bank is Tatu's creator, Ivan Shapovalov, who shamelessly admits that he set out to exploit such a distasteful market.



The former child psychologist who admits to visiting child porn websites said yesterday: 'It was five years ago that I decided to do this underage sex project in Russia.



'Why underage? Because I wanted it and found it funny.



'People visit porno sites above all others. I analysed it and found 90 per cent of people using the Internet go to porno sites first.



'And of this 90 per cent, nine in ten are looking for underage entertainment. This means there is big interest as well as some dissatisfaction - their needs are not being met.'



Shapovalov revealed he also manufactured the lesbian aspect of the duo to meet those needs. 'Why did I choose this image?' he asked. 'Because I saw it in the girls' relationship. You see it with all girls - this element of lesbianism exists.



'It happens very often with girls, when a kind of border between friendship and love evaporates. They can sleep together, kiss each other.' "



MTV comments :-"Their racy image has been carefully crafted by the group's producer and manager, Ivan Shapovalov, who makes Lou Pearlman look downright virtuous. A former psychologist and advertising executive, Shapovalov glanced out at a sea of suggestive teen pop and experienced an epiphany. So he put together Tatu and tried injecting a stagnant genre with new forbidden fruits, pushing buttons and ruffling feathers, but stopping just short of being outright lewd.

"Our producer is a very good psychologist, and that's why he can feel all the feelings that we have," Katina said.

The two met in the children's pop group Neposedi. She and Katina were then contacted by Shapovalov, and led to the world of softcore lesbian pop.



Of course, selling sex is nothing new. But there's some question whether Tatu actually ascribe to the sapphic lifestyle they project: While management has eagerly released titillating details to the press — such as how the girls insist on a double bed in their hotel rooms — none of the group's representatives will affirm that Volkova and Katina are the genuine article. And while the girls might love to kiss, they're not about to tell.



"Every song is about our life," concluded Katina. "Everybody thinks we are lesbians. But we just love each other." "



What seems to be complicating the issue further is the confusion over what certain people and newspapers are asking to be banned.



To object to the band because they are young lesbians would be wrong.

The song is inoffensive.

But what about the video? Who is this aimed at? should it be banned from kids tv only shown on The Box or MTV?



Kids aren't paedophiles, adults are.



As a lesbian I don't have a problem seeing pictures of young lesbians kissing.

Or I didn't.

Just reading that statement in conjunction with the comments by Tatu's manager, makes me feel incredibly uneasy and I have worked long and hard to be comfortable with my sexuality.



So I am angry and disturbed.



Angry that two young women, who may or may not be lesbians are being used to fill a "niche in the market"



And disturbed and angry that I have been made to feel uncomfortable and uneasy about myself.



Your feedback and comments would be greatly appreciated.



Jill.





Thanks to Xita for taking time to read through this first.

EffieBlue
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Twisted Minstrel » Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:12 am

First, this story bit me two-fold. I've only recently heard the song, which I regard as simple, electronic pop with no musical value whatsoever, and been fascinated by the number of people on this board and many others, who have commented on it.



What struck me, reading your article is that such things do exist. The exploitation of youth has been going on forever. The exploitation of gay youth is also well-known, and part of a subersive dark side to our culture that many of us have all but grown up with and accepted as the sick consequence of media manipulation.



Here, though, it strikes another nerve. There are so many underage members of the KB, and many other sites I've visited or am a member of. The net is rife with young people looking to make a connection to something or someone and, being so completely enveloped by this digital domain, rarely see the truth outside of it.



I can honestly say that I don't know how many people I've chatted with over the years have been at least under the age of 18. For the most part, they will tell you straight out how old they are, or give some clues (usually the character of their conversation), or simply say nothing at all. They want to be part of the 'group' and likely fear they won't be accepted if their true age were known.



This all ties into the adult lack of respect for youth. We don't give them the time or the attention they really need, much less the understanding they crave, or the affection, and they begin to look elsewhere. It's disturbing all round how little we bother to inform ourselves of the deep, surreal and damaging manipulation by media demagogues who are only looking to cash in on the loneliness and misunderstanding of a 'niche' market.



More than we realize, we are a part of the alienation and anxiety of our times. We feed it this beast like it's a poor wet puppy in from the cold. We want it to like us and to love us and accept us for what we are. But we are being lied to, and I hope any young person reading this will take a moment to realize just how much of their lives are being dictated to them, how their perceptions are being distorted by the imagery before them, even the seemingly harmless music, videos and games that overwhelm our daily lives.



I believe in the strength of intelligence and the will to overcome; we have so much to offer, so many wonderful things we are capable of. It seems a horrible waste of time to let ourselves be taken in by this crap.



And I'm not blind to the irony that is the Kitten Board - we revolve around a fictious pairing of two young women who were never written to be anything but a heterosexual's idea of a 'niche' and to end up a wasted cliche. We have been in the thrall of male father figure who benefited from our need, our loneliness and our longing for acceptance.



But in a strange way, we took it back and made it our own.



Effie, thank you for bringing this to our attention - it's good to hear a clear voice in the crowd.



Piper

http://www.blurty.com/users/moonrain

Twisted Minstrel
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Zippy » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:47 am

I’ve seen similar articles to this in the papers all weekend. I have even read that Richard & Judy have been so affected by what the manager has said that they are urging people not to buy the single.



This whole aiming the image at a niche market has got me thinking quite a bit. You see I like the song & I’ve bought the single. It’s Electro pop, the sort of thing I listen to for hours in the car. I thought that the video was just a gimmick, something to get it mentioned in the media, give the band a bit of exposure. Call me naïve but that is how the music industry works, find a gimmick, get free press it worked for Steps. Now because of recent articles in the press I have a whole different view of it.



This is where I start to have major problems, because of this manager's view of what sort of people would buy this record and I have bought it, what kind of person does that make me? As Jill has said before, it makes me feel incredibly uneasy about my own sexuality, which I have been extremely comfortable with in the past. Surely this isn’t right.



This is the world we live in today where it’s image and sex appeal that sells your product, it doesn’t matter if your product is very good or not as long as you have the right image to sell it.





Beer, Girls, Arse! - Father Jack from Father Ted

Zippy
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Evercat » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:50 am

How old are the Tatu singers?





--
10^57 varieties

Evercat
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Zippy » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:54 am

According to the press articles one is 18 the other 19.



Beer, Girls, Arse! - Father Jack from Father Ted

Zippy
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Mrs Vertigo » Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:46 am

18-19 is completely legal in Israel. Isn't it so in Russia or the US?



I'd like to join the uncomfortable camp. I truely don't know what to make of this band. I don't like the use of homosexuality as a sail booster, just like I wouldn't like a song that goes "we are so straight... lalalala-aaa!". Its the same level of idiocy.



All in all, I appose pop music and all it represents, which is the industrialism of a fine art to a level that renders it lifeless. I'm appalled by preformers who don't write their materials andor are idolized for being the perfect example of the most mainstream and conformative values. I think there's no point in worshipping a walking-talking social norm. Those who represent a diffrenet approach are the only ones worth listening to. But that's just my opinion.



Anyway, up to now I was pretty sure that Tatu are both actually gay AND direct themselvs. So although I didn't really like the video, I figured they have as much a right to do it as I myself have to have my picture taken with another girl. But now, concidering what you guys just said... I'm kinnda shocked and very much confused.



Also, another point we need to concider: Russia and the surrouding nations are rather known for their homophobia and sexual intolorance. Many Russians who immigrated to Israel agree that this religion-plegued country is far more liberal then their native land. So we need to be asking ourselvs, as much as Tatu might be contraversial, arn't they still doing a great service for the Russian homosexual community? Maybe at this point, their doing all that *can* be done to normalize homosexuality?



I don't know, my head is too small for all of this. I haven't bought the single because I rarely buy any original albums. I'm an ass like that. But I do have the song on my computer... oh dear...



On Buffy, Season 7: ”Bored now…”

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 2/2/03 5:46:52 am
Mrs Vertigo
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby urnofosiris » Sun Feb 02, 2003 8:43 am

Hmm, I haven't seen their video yet but they have been discussed on a gossipy tv program here, not the article posted, just the are or aren't they lesbians question. Just briefly though, not a big deal was made, though they would not have been mentioned at all if they had not been kissing in the video. Being gay or showing same sex kissing in a music video still isn't quite "ordinary" in the Netherlands yet.



It does not bother me if their lesbianism (assuming they really are gay, otherwisr it's just another ratings ploy) is being used to promote their songs and videos, I don't view it differently from singers using their physical beauty to promote their work or the way pretty boys and girls are all over each other in music videos. The big problem here seems to be their manager's big mouth and lecherous attitude. Whatever positive impact these women might have on the way lesbians and gays are viewed in their country (or others), gets tainted when someone like that links them to pedophilia, even indirectly. This says more about that manager than the people who buy the records, who will only be discouraged after reading this no doubt.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 2/2/03 9:44:52 am
urnofosiris
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby J uk » Sun Feb 02, 2003 8:47 am

I just read a news report about this here:



Quote:
Attack On 'Lesbian' Pop Duo



TV presenters Richard and Judy have called for 'lesbian' pop duo t.A.T.u to be banned. They believe the Russian teenagers are cynically targeting the paedophile market and want their new single withdrawn from shops.The song, All The Things She Said, is set to hit the number one spot this Sunday.



Julia Volkova, 17, and Lena Katina, 18, were both just 14 when the video for their single was filmed.



In it, they kiss and fondle each other while dressed in school uniforms.



Richard Madeley said: "We are being told that these girls actually have underage lesbian sex in real life.



"And we're being told by their manager that he spotted a gap in the market - a paedophile gap in the market - and he's pushing them towards that.



"Now, that's sick and it's wrong and personally I think Polydor should not be selling the record in this country.



"I think they are supporting a straightforward, open paedophile message and that's terrible."




It's a shame that it looks like they are being exploited (HLA?), since the song is strong enough to be a hit on it's own. Even if they were 14 when they did the video, it still wouldn't be a paedophile message but a jailbait message.



Richard and Judy's TV show is under threat of cancellation due to poor ratings. Which I'm sure has nothing to do with their campaign...



Some more about it here.

Edited by: J uk at: 2/2/03 6:50:57 am
J uk
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby SlayerSydney » Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:44 am

I downloaded the song, "All the things She Said" a while ago, because I liked it. The lyrics grabbed me one night while listening to the digital music via broadband cable. It wasn't until after I downloaded it, that I discovered the controversy about the girls. Originally I thought, good for them, young lesbians singing about loving each other. But after further research it seemed to be much more of a ploy by the duo's management team. Marketing the lesbians and playing to young boy's fantasies. Funny how I never considered the adult population watching the girls with the same fascination as young boys. I didn't even contemplate that aspect.



What the newspaper reported the manager doing is disgusting. The fact that he admits to exploiting the girls for the sole purpose of attracting an audience that is porn oriented, is just despicable. Or should I clarify, his reasoning for this marketing approach is what's despicable. I also agree with DrG:
Quote:
Whatever positive impact these women might have on the way lesbians and gays are viewed in their (or other) country, gets tainted when someone like that links them to pedophilia, even indirectly.




I think it is a sick marketing strategy on many levels. The girls are going to be the ones who are hurt in the end. If they were serious about singing careers, this may be a Milli Vanilli mistake, posing as something they are not could eventually damage their future. And I doubt that their manager cares much about the future. Strinke it while it's hot and run with the money. And as far as the manager being a former child psychologist, how else is he manipulating the girls?



But I am now uneasy with this whole Tatu controversy.

I agree with you Jill, it is disturbing. This man, Ivan Shapovalov, is frightenly disturbing. A former child psychologist...I wonder what other damage he has done. That's the most distrubing thought.


"You have to believe we are magic. Nothin' can stand in our way."---Olivia Newton-John.



The quest for certainty blocks the quest for meaning.---Erich Fromm

SlayerSydney
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby xita » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:55 am

Quote:
It's a shame that it looks like they are being exploited (HLA?), since the song is strong enough to be a hit on it's own. Even if they were 14 when they did the video, it still wouldn't be a paedophile message but a jailbait message.




The music can be good but would a small russian duo like this hit #1 in the UK (I assume) if a gimmick hadn't put it out there? I really don't think they would have gotten the music out there without a gimmick video to back it up.



At 14, pedophelia does come into play. The unfortunate thing is yes, this is hurting gays and lesbians. When the manager says he's filling a pedophile market, it is grown men who find both young women and lesbians to be sexually appealing. Unfortunately when people read the connection they assume it's a bunch of older lesbians sitting around lusting after young girls. That is a true shame.



This news has been around for a long time, I am surprised that just now someone is saying something about it.



They have always bothered me, the idea that some manager forced 2 young girls to act gay for the sake of making money is wrong and unethical and I haven't supported this group and I won't. I haven't heard the music and I am not going to see the video.

If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.

Tallulah Bankhead

xita
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby lydia » Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:41 pm

This topic is very interesting because me and a lot of my friends are fans of the group - it's catchy music, with lesbians, we like it. I do agree though that it was very disturbing to learn about the issues with their manager, that the whole lesbian theme is really and act, and that they are underaged. I was personally shocked to find out that both the girls are younger than me - it makes the whole situation feel a little closer to home. So, Jill, I can relate to the uneasiness there being bi myself. It feels like there's an unnatural objectifaction of young female homosexuals, which makes me feel weird. I'm wondering what will happen when (if) they break america - this goes a little beyond Britney in skimpy clothing.

Come up to meet you

Tell you I'm sorry

You don't know how lovely you are...

-Coldplay

lydia
 


re: an uneasy feeling

Postby Twisted Minstrel » Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:37 pm

Just following up on this, I went down to a large record store here in Seattle last night, the late-night variety (and it's amazing what comes out at night to buy cds), and found copies of the TATU cd on the stands - the cover shows these two highly painted girls in mock school girl uniforms. They look vague goth, vaguely child-like and the image is meant to provoke.



While 'sexy, naughty schoolgirls' is nothing new (if anything this manager could easily be accused of perpetrating a very old stereotype), you could even go back to Elton John's song "All the Young Girls Love Alice" - which, while not being exploitative, sung rather harshly about this kind of phenonemenon. There were few women in that shop, and mostly boys staring at the picture as they walked by - on the singles chart is was rated as #15. I asked one of the clerks if he knew anything about the band. He just knew they were "a couple of teenage lesbos from Russia." Ignorance and apathy spread like wildfire up here.



In the store was an overweight, older creepoid with no hair in a red track suit. He prowled the magazine rack, taking note of all the skin mags, and stood out in this mostly youthful crowd. I watched him for a while, since he was obviously cruising for something. He looked over the TATU album for a long while too. This was just about as bizarre as the evening got. I could totally picture this as the type of guy who stalks young girls or even boys in chat rooms - the stranger with a pocketful of candy.



That's ultimately what this boils down to. Can you imagine being taken in by a stranger with a pocketful of candy? I hope not. This whole thing makes me sick - the selling of it, the insidious persuasion of it and what it means to young people.



Someone listening to this may hear it the way I initially did - harmless crap. But it isn't. There is nothing harmless about it and if it's selling, then there will be more just like it.

Twisted Minstrel
 


Re: re: an uneasy feeling

Postby EffieBlue » Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:29 pm

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to think about this topic.



The managers attidude really disturbs me, especially his comments...

"'Why underage? Because I wanted it and found it funny. "

and in talking about those who visit porn sites,

"'And of this 90 per cent, nine in ten are looking for underage entertainment. This means there is big interest as well as some dissatisfaction - their needs are not being met.'



To not find this disturbing, but to actually go out to look for a way to fill those needs, has me seriously wondering just what else this guy is actually doing with young kids. Presumably the young women who are in the group will at some point no longer fit into this underage vision, and replacements will have to be found.

Is he now grooming some kids to be their replacements?

On seeing the success of Tatu, will he next try doing the same with a couple of young lads?



We are in an age of manufactured pop acts, kids desperate to be on the quick road to fame, with unscrupulous managers like this and record companies willing to turn a blind eye as long as money is being made, then kids are going to be in danger.



I think this does absolutely nothing positive for lesbians and gays. In fact I think it could have completely the opposite effect, once again firmly connecting lesbians and gays with the words pervert and paedophiles.



Jill





EffieBlue
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby elessar007 » Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:24 am

I just recently looked into Tatu as I had seen it mentioned in some other threads or perhaps the chat room. What I did find by checking the official webpage was a bunch of stills and some real media clips and a lyric sheet of a rather mediocre song. But their musical ability isn't the point at hand.



So far as the stillshots are concerned, it showed them in the 'naughty schoolgirl' outfit. That stereotype has been played out in many videos and other mediums. That is not an issue directly.

Quote:
18-19 is completely legal in Israel. Isn't it so in Russia or the US?


I can't speak for Russia but 18 is the general rule in the US. But whatever age the girls were when it was shot takes a back seat to the age of the projected 'image'. If they were 18 trying to pass as 14 then you still run into the themes of pedophilia. It's not enough that the girls are of age. If they are selling an image based around sex then they shouldn't display themselves like children. Add in the lure of lesbian love and you have a marketing strategy that is morally repugnant to say the least.



Unfortunately the erroneous link of homosexuality and pedophilia is not gone, at least not in my personal experience. Why just the other day I had a conversation wherein someone said the recent scandals in the Catholic Church in the US were directly linked to the allowance of gays into the clergy. After I picked my jaw up and made sure that I wasn't hearing things I made inquiry as to what the hell they were talking about. After a few minutes of trying to discuss this reasonably I realized that was impossible. I mean impossible in that 'reason' would never be a functioning aspect of the conversation. I decided at that point to cut my losses because I would never be able to rationally discuss this absurd notion.



I'm sorry if I was too tangential in my post but I believe there were common points. Mainly, the absurd link between pedophilia and homosexuality. Unfortunately it is a link that many people still believe in and to use it as a marketing tool is one of the most vile things I have seen.

***

"Hey, Will. This is me. It doesn't all have to be 'good' and 'fine.' This is the room where you don't have to be brave and I still love you."

elessar007
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby KISMIC » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:31 am

You know I came across, "All The Things She Said", in a Buffy fanvideo and just loved the song. I had no idea who sang it or, believe it or not, that it was about two girls. So... finally a friend told me that it was about two girls and that it was sung by a duo that were openly gay. Now, unlike almost everyone who has posted in the thread so far, I actually love TATU's music. I could care less about the film clips or who sings it, I just like the music. To find out that their manager is portraying them like he is for a gimmick is disturbing, to say the least, but I still like the music and why should the two girls suffer because of what their manager says. In my oppinion they are really talented *artists* above anything else. I guess by downloading/listening/buying their music it may seem to be condoning it but to me telling me to not listen to it because of that is like if tomorrow I found out something like this about someone like Sarah McLachlan. I've loved her music for a while now so it would just be unthinkable to just stop listening to her music.

I do agree that the film clip *should* be pulled and discarded or replaced as they were underage when it was filmed whether they agreed to it or not...However on that note who's to say that Britney Spears video clips, such as "Hit Me Baby", shouldn't be taken off? First off the lyrics, well, they speak for themself, she is dressed up as a "naughty" school girl in the film clip and at the time she was also underage. Just because her manager/etc haven't spoken out and said it was directed at pedophiles, doesn't mean that it wasn't.

As for homosexuals being linked to pedophilia, I actually have not ever heard/seen such a thing, usually it's older men that are related to it. Though then again I do live in a small town in Australia so...



Now I'm not brilliant at voicing my oppinion so it's highly likely these comments will not be taken well. If so, just know I meant no offence, just some of my random thoughts on the subject.



*~Kristy~*

"You talk about trying to find your way.But to me you are my way ."



"Have you ever felt really close to someone? So close that you can¹t understand why you and the other person have two seperate bodies, two seperate skins? I think it was Sunday when that feeling began."

KISMIC
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby SJ » Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:10 am

I agree with everything you said.

I like the song and a I like the album.

And having lurked on an unofficial T.A.T.U. forum,it's surprising how many posters on there are W&T fans.

SJ
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby themagicpixie » Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:05 am

T.A.T.U's single "All the Things She Said" is Number One on the UK's official chart:



www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/news...hart.shtml



themagicpixie
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby xita » Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:19 am

You know everyone has to make their own decisions and how important politics/social issues are to them. Personally, I think some things can't be separated, the art may be great but what's behind them isn't. What's acceptable? Take Woody Allen, I actually enjoyed many of the movies he made, I was a bit of a fan. Then the whole thing happened and I am unable to watch his movies without them being tainted by his acts which I feel were immoral and unethical at the very least. I won't support his movies financially in any way.



Sure those 2 girls are not at fault, but as long as they are with that manager they are only furthering his agenda. In an act such as theirs 95% of the song is production. Their only hope is that this pervert goes off to find younger girls to pimp.



Is this ok? Is it ok to sell our young girls as lust objects? What's too much? If the music is ok, can they simulate sex in their videos? Wear less and less clothes? I objected to Britney Spears. She's older now and she can do what she likes.



Again it all comes down to what's important to you, pleasure or making a statement. Some of us boycott products that we enjoy because of political reasons. I am not saying enjoying the music makes you a pervert like this man, not in the least. I am saying that every cent you spend on these girls is going to a man who openly admits he is selling a product to pedophiles and will do all he can to fill the pedophile market. Don't for a second think these girls are getting rich from this song. I urge you to download mp3s make your own cds, make your own t-shirts, if the exploitation of children is at all a concern for you.

-----------------
Baby you make my love come down

Oh you make my love come down

Make it come all the way down
-
Evelyn Champagne King

xita
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby tommo » Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:47 pm

I've held off from posting in this thread because I must admit to being a little dubious about this topic as a whole. I've seen the reports on the news about Tatu; I've read the articles in the press and also heard the opinions purported by, well, Richard and Judy for one.



Now, as far as the music goes; I like these girls. Their singing is passably good, and their songs are catchy and easy to listen to. But I don't think that they would be at No.1 in the charts if there hadn't been such a furore over them and their image.



However, it's the imagery that I find disturbing. These girls are young. They're too young to be developing themselves (or rather, being developed) as sexual entities. As a teacher, I have to say that I find the idea of young women like these two girls being paraded round in school uniforms pretty repulsive. They're not much more than children, and I'm afraid I can't see them as anything more than that. Yes, so they're 17 and 18. Or hey, 18 and 19.



For a teen market, I would suspect that their ages don't really matter a great deal. But their manager knows what he's doing. And it's inconceivable to believe that he's actually marketing these two girls for a teen market. From what I can gather, much attention is attracted from the more spurious levels of society; namely older men to whom these two girls represent so much more than "a pop group". And it's that that makes me wonder at how he's allowed to do such a thing.



It's true you know. If you choose to support a music act and buy their product, you are also choosing to buy into them. The money you spend on buying their album goes towards perpetuating the image that they cling to. It's for this reason that I haven't bought a CD in an age, I think. Because when it comes down to it, there just isn't a music act around right now that I care to invest my money in. When there is, I will spend money on them and their product, but you can be assured that I won't be contributing to a manager who is a paedophile in a very thin disguise.



T.A.T.U. - what does that stand for anyway? Could it possibly be Teenage Act Totally Unacceptable?



It's in your eyes, I can tell what you're thinking; my heart is sinking too...It's no surprise, I've been watching you lately; I want to make it with you...

tommo
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby Willow Rocks » Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:49 pm

I just wanted to add that in the uk i think without the controvosy this still could have been a #1. As a teenager that goes to college i have bought the single as have the majority of my friends who r all straight (and most of them turn the video off when it comes on) the teachers at my school like it, when i have jokenly sang it 2 my friends in class they are always like manda sit down and stop killing a perfectly good pop song, which is what it is a pop song! And ok i had a point but i cant remember it but i just want to say if they were 14 when they shot that video then hell they certainly grow them old looking in russia and their parents must have known what was happening and lets ask if u were giving permission for your 14 year old to be in a pop band aimed at phidophiles whould u let them?

Willow Rocks
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby xita » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:21 pm

I wouldn't but people sadly do tons of things for money. Just think of the parents that let their children spend the night and hang out at neverland ranch with Michael Jackson and who then drop their suits when they are paid off.

-----------------
Baby you make my love come down

Oh you make my love come down

Make it come all the way down
-
Evelyn Champagne King

xita
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby seurat » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:33 pm

First off, let's take it as a given that the manager is reprehensible. Although I would caution to take what he says in interviews with a whacking big bag of salt, because this is the type of guy who says nothing without thinking how much money it will make him. And controversial comments often = sales.



Secondly, I'm old enough to remember another scummy manager named Kim Fowley. What a piece of work he was. He formed the Runaways, wrote most of their early songs, dressed the lead singer in a corset and sent them out into the world to make him a fortune. Didn't happen, and after awhile they got smart and dumped him, wrote all their own songs and took control of their careers. All of them are fine people and Joan Jett and Lita Ford have had solid music careers. My point in bringing them up is twofold, first that this sort of thing is nothing new, and two, don't blame the girls. If you feel you must boycott TATU and urge others the do so because of the sleazy methods being used by their manager to increase sales however, I encourage you to do so. Just don't forget to target the right person.





"What are we going to do tomorrow night, Brain?

The same thing we do every night Pinky, try to take over the world!"

seurat
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:47 pm

well I just have to say, no offense to all you unfans, but I love t.A.T.u. their music is fresh, it's good, and I've turned a bunch of people into liking them. their vids, I actually like. all the things she said isn't one of my favorites, actually it's no where near one of my favorites. but still, they are adults, well at least one of them is right at the moment. you guys got the age stuff mixed up. Lena Katina is 18, and Yulia Volkova is 17, 18 on february 28th. to be honest, I think 99.9% of everything they do is great. I mean, how many lesbians get really famous these days, and show it off worldwide. not many. whatever they do, I really don't care. because as long as it's good, I like it. and you know, I am a member of some tatu stuff, and what I found really interesting was that 75% of them are all Willow and Tara fans...so do take that into consideration. I did read in an article though, that all of the lyrics are about them, and there's nothing in there that they haven't been through, except #5 on the US album.



the part I don't like about them, is that they can't do whatever they really want. the contract they signed with Shapavolav entitles that they can't speak out for themselves. they can't do things that shapovalav doesn't let them. and a big thing, is that they have to do everything he says. if he wants them to strip naked, they have to do it. that's what bothers me about tatu. in the video all the things she said, the whole makeout scene, their producer wanted, but they also wanted to do it. so mad props to them. their producer really just wants to make them sex symbols and what not, and if they didn't do that, they wouldn't be as famous as they are today. you'd think that if they didn't do that, their fanbase would die down and no one would want to have anything to do with them anymore. funny thing is though, they'd still have the same fan base... and most of their fans support them because tatu is like something they can relate to in life. cause I know I can. so yeah, well there's my 2 cents in this thing. I like them, I support them, I buy their stuff, end of story.

"In my world, there are people in chains and we can ride them like ponies"- Vampire Willow



"Hear that baby? You're my always"-Willow to Tara

Edited by: AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever at: 2/3/03 3:56:35 pm
AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby tommo » Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:15 pm

I'm sorry, are you drawing some kind of conclusion about Willow/Tara fans and TATU fans? Sorry, but I'm a little unclear on what you're trying to say here. That because these two girls are "lesbians" (and I use that term loosely because I feel their sexuality has a lot more to do with image than reality) then every gay woman in the world should support them? Surely that rules out the idea of choice, and morality, and personal judgement?



You like these two girls. I would imagine that you're closer to their age than I am. You like their music; well so do I. But I refuse to contribute towards a machine that spews out images of underage sex that is admittedly aimed towards, not gay women, not teenagers, but middle-aged men.



Quote:
whatever they do, I really don't care. because as long as it's good, I like it.




I would imagine that your interpretation of "good" is somewhat different to the other interpretations of "good" in this very thread.



Quote:
in the video all the things she said, the whole makeout scene, their producer wanted, but they also wanted to do it. so mad props to them.




So let me get this right; you don't like that they have to do everything their producer wants them to, but when it's them making out you don't mind so much? So as long as it's lesbian girl on girl action that's alright, no matter how disturbing the intention behind that image might be?



Quote:
I support them, I buy their stuff, end of story




I'm terribly afraid that it's not the end of this particular story. And once again, lesbian images are being used to purport an idea about sexuality that is just so very wrong. Titillation is really not the reason I'm a lesbian. It's not the reason I read lesbian literature, or watch lesbian movies. You said that you identify with these two girls because they're reflecting your life. Well they're not reflecting mine.



You mention that it's great to see lesbians becoming famous, and that we should support them, but your next paragraph goes on to describe the Svengali-like influence their producer exerts over them. Is that a good example of a lesbian artist? I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree, as it's really not my idea of what a lesbian icon should, or could be.







It's in your eyes, I can tell what you're thinking; my heart is sinking too...It's no surprise, I've been watching you lately; I want to make it with you...

tommo
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever » Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:44 pm

yeah, just now rereading what I said, I left way too many fragments. the whole w/t basis, I just thought was neat. a bunch of w/t fans are really big fans of these girls. to me, that's awesome



Quote:
a machine that spews out images of underage sex that is admittedly aimed towards, not gay women, not teenagers, but middle-aged men.




I personally don't think it's just meant for middle aged men. even if that's what it appears just to be for, I don't think that. I think it was just for the whole world.



Quote:
in the video all the things she said, the whole makeout scene, their producer wanted, but they also wanted to do it. so mad props to them.




to restate what I said. when I went back to edit, I wrote that mad props crap in the wrong place.



Quote:
So let me get this right; you don't like that they have to do everything their producer wants them to, but when it's them making out you don't mind so much?




I don't approve of what the producer makes them do. if they wanted to make out in that video because they wanted to, I support that. which they did say they wanted to in an interview I read a while back.



yeah it's not the end of their story, that's right. I don't know why I said it is. yes, I can identify with these girls. that's half the reason why I like them. what their producer has over them, is like half of the singers out there. they're all controlled by their producers. why can't they just do their own damn thing I'll never know. after all the crap they have to go through from their producer, and forced to do, I still like what they produce though. they're something I enjoy listening to, and have almost no problem watching them.

"In my world, there are people in chains and we can ride them like ponies"- Vampire Willow



"Hear that baby? You're my always"-Willow to Tara

Edited by: AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever at: 2/3/03 4:48:42 pm
AWillowAndTaraFan4Ever
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby xita » Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:57 pm

Look, I am not attacking anyone who likes them, far from it. I imagine their tunes are catchy and without the influence of this man, I am sure they could be great rolemodels for young women. But as it stands they are just puppets.



I am confused about some of your staments though. You say:

Quote:
the part I don't like about them, is that they can't do whatever they really want. the contract they signed with Shapavolav entitles that they can't speak out for themselves.




But then you say:

Quote:
in the video all the things she said, the whole makeout scene, their producer wanted, but they also wanted to do it. so mad props to them.




On the one hand, their contract prohibits them to speak out for themselves but when they say they wanted to do the video, you believe them? Those are then not their words because by contract, they can't speak for themselves. It seems to me those statements are clearly just ready made comments for the media written by Shapavolav.



I think if you are involved in the fandom and you want these girls to succeed, then support their emancipation.

-----------------
Baby you make my love come down

Oh you make my love come down

Make it come all the way down
-
Evelyn Champagne King

xita
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby KISMIC » Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:02 am

I've also found that alot of the fans of TATU also happen to be W/T-lesbian fans but I don't find that very surprising as there are very few lesbian movies/singers/books/etc out there for that fanbase to look to so if an act comes along that's any good why not buy up big on them. That does not however imply that I believe all lesbians *should* like them just because they happen to be a gay singing duo. Just that if there is something for gay teenagers to relate to while living at home, where they would not be able to see/hear things that they can relate to, which is really telling them, "It's okay to be or feel what you are", then this is just as good as seeing a couple like W/T on television.



From what I've read about TATU I actually do not believe that they are even actually gay themselves, and do believe that it is just part of an act to gain publicity. I'm not overly impressed by that fact, but it doesn't bother me so much because, when it comes down to it all groups use stunts like this.



Now about "contributing towards a machine that spews out images of underage sex..." well that's all good and well for those who can download and listen to/burn cd's, without technically endorsing them, but what about those who can't? Not long ago I was on a computer that was incapable of doing that and their music hasn't reached Australia yet so my only option would have been to buy the official cd's if I wanted to listen to their music. Why should I have to feel guilty because of this?!



As for the fact that their image is aimed towards middle-aged men, I do not believe that is true either, just that it is another stunt their manager is pulling for publicity. Where the video clip would be played is on music programs for teenaged guys and girls so really to form any fanbase it would have to actually be aimed at guys - dressing slutty- and girls - want to be them.



Now I do see their *music* as good, in the sense that, you have people out there, some of which would be homophobic to some degree, who are singing about and enjoying two girls in love. To me that is actually a *good* thing. Now I don't know about the general population but, half the songs played on the radio I haven't even seen the video clips too so whether they dance nude while kissing in their film clip would not matter to me. How good their music is would!



Overall I believe that the group could be much more popular, with a much better image, if they just lost their manager and while I'm at it the one thing I wouldn't mind finding out is, just how long their contracts run for with that manager!



*~Kristy

"You talk about trying to find your way.But to me you are my way ."



"Have you ever felt really close to someone? So close that you can¹t understand why you and the other person have two seperate bodies, two seperate skins? I think it was Sunday when that feeling began."

KISMIC
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby xita » Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:08 am

Two quick things :



Quote:


As for the fact that their image is aimed towards middle-aged men, I do not believe that is true either, just that it is another stunt their manager is pulling for publicity. Where the video clip would be played is on music programs for teenaged guys and girls so really to form any fanbase it would have to actually be aimed at guys - dressing slutty- and girls - want to be them.




Well, I am not sure if you've ever wondered, but if you were a pedophile, what shows would you watch? Where would you hang out?



Also thanks to Pat for sending me to this link as an unrelated issue but I found I love this guy and wanted to quote something from Tom Petty's rolling stone article





#7 reason Tom Petty is pissed:

Quote:


7 Only a sick culture would sexualize young girls

"It's disgusting. It's not just pop music, it's fashion, it's TV, it's advertising, it's every element of our culture. Young women are not being respected, children aren't being respected. Why are we creating a nation of child molesters? Could it be that we're dressing up nine-year-old women to look sexy? And even if we're wrong, let's not do it anyway. I really don't put it past these advertising people to say, 'Well, look, we made a lot of money when we brought the nine-year-old out and made her look like a hooker. Let's do it again.' "


-----------------
Baby you make my love come down

Oh you make my love come down

Make it come all the way down
-
Evelyn Champagne King

xita
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby SJ » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:53 am

T.A.T.U. weren't 14 when they made the video.

I'm agreeing with KISMIC again on this one.



SJ
 


Re: T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

Postby KISMIC » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:00 am

""Well, I am not sure if you've ever wondered, but if you were a pedophile, what shows would you watch? Where would you hang out? ""



Yes, I agree on that note, but whether TATU kiss/dress slutty or not in their film clip, the pedophiles will still be watching those shows and waiting for any other act to come along.



Now I'm sorry but I don't care how slutty they dress girls of that age up, it just is not *sexy* to me. It's still younger children. So I don't believe that we're ""creating a nation of child molesters"". That's much like the argument that society is creating murderers.



BTW SJ nice to know that I'm making sense to someone other than myself.



*~Kristy~*

"You talk about trying to find your way.But to me you are my way ."



"Have you ever felt really close to someone? So close that you can¹t understand why you and the other person have two seperate bodies, two seperate skins? I think it was Sunday when that feeling began."

KISMIC
 

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