Writing Discussion

[darkmagicwillow]

This is a thread for writers to discuss all aspects of writing. You can ask questions, express theories about writing in general and fan fiction in particular, and talk about your feelings about writing, both when you can and when you can't.



It's meant to have a broader focus on writing than either the Creative Help thread or the Reading and Writing Fan Fiction thread on the Kitten. There's a lot of this type of talk in chat and email about writing and story ideas, but I'd like to see some of that discussion made public so that more people can benefit from it. I've talked with a few people with whom I talk about such things and it's with their encouragement that I make this first post.



It's easier to show what I mean than explain it, and I've got a dozen or so discussion ideas in my mind at the moment. I'll just start with one thought as I don't want to dominate the thread.





I'm developing my second long story and discovering that it's a very different experience from developing my first one. One thing is the same though. I'm just as anxious about my second story as I was with my first. This time I'm not wondering whether I can write at all, but instead whether I can write something that appeals to the Pens readers as strongly as my last story did. Good feedback can be intimidating. I'm wondering how much this feeling is feeding into how differently I'm approaching story development this time.



I'm doing a lot more research, into magic and mythology as well as into Buffy itself as I try to fit this story more closely within the bounds of Buffy history than my last one. The research is necessary for the story, but it also helps me feel that I've done my "homework." I'm finding it an interesting challenge to work in the confines of BtVS, both within its metaphysics/cosmology (or lack thereof) as well as within its history which offers so many intriguing loose ends. I really don't know how some writers create so many beautiful stories within even tighter constraints than I'm using, but we all write differently.



I'm also spending much more time working on and modifying my outline. It's taken twice the time, and it's four times as long as my last one, and at that, it only covers half the story. It's good to explore and discard ideas while it's "cheap" to do so, but I wonder if I'm forcing myself into a straightjacket that will limit me later. Detailed outlining takes a lot of time too, but I'm hoping that writing will be faster for the months I've put into the outline.



How was your experience of writing your second story different from your first? Did you have any of the same feelings or make any of the same changes to your style that I did? Am I overpreparing or was I underprepared for my last story? What do you do before you start writing the actual chapters of your stories?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 2/18/03 2:34:37 pm

[TromDeGrey]

SO happy to see a thread like this one. I personally don't believe in over-preparation. But at the same time, I rarely outline. The very first story I ever posted on the Net was an epic that took me a year to write and had two different betas for. It was over 1,000 written pages. I posted exactly three chapters before my Inbox caught fire and I begged the webmistress to pull the piece completely. It was a total nightmare. I suppose that's why I'm hesitating so much to post something I'm working on now. The Air story that I mentioned in my email to you. Kitten feedback is a wonderous thing. It's so positive that it makes me want to post, but it's also so in depth and insightful that it makes me wonder if my story has what it takes to keep an audience's attention. As for research, as I said, I don't believe you can be over-prepared. I've done tons of research for this little fluff piece I'm writing, including going to a couple of Kittens for specific help. (ie. Going to mollyig for help writing an Irish character and getting a little help with Yiddish from Kieli) I do believe you can 'straitjacket' yourself though. As I said in my email, several parts of my current fic seem to have written themselves. It has definately taken turns I didn't plan for. For instance, I was writing our girls in a yoga class. I was really only planning on focusing on one or two poses in the class. I ended up going through eight of them in detail. I thought the section entirely too long, but a certain flowery beta we both know and love said the length felt right and put the reader right in the class. *shrug* Not what I planned, but even better. I truly believe that sometimes you just have to let the characters tell the story themselves. That may sound insane, but you obviously have a great grasp of the W/T characters, and I think you have to trust your love of them enough to maybe let them take off with things a little bit sometimes. Thanks for this, DMW!



edited to add: Antigone-Sounds like we have similar problems. Characterization=good. Plot=bad.

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."

Chinese Proverb

Edited by: xita  at: 1/17/04 8:03 pm

[AntigoneUnbound]

DMW--As you know, I struggle with many of the same questions that you do. I suspect that I stray to the other end of the continuum, however, particularly with re: to preparation. That is, I often find my characters surprising me with "their" decisions. I don't know if you've ever read "Bird by Bird" by Anne Lamott (I hope I've spelled that last name correctly; if not, I'll post the correct version tomorrow); I think she's influenced the actual process of my writing more than anyone else I've read. She has some wonderful ideas about character and plot. I've found that the former comes more easily to me than the latter.



I think that one of the things that ME did so well in the beginning was to give us characters that were so rich and who held such amazing potential in so many realms of life (physical, spiritual, sexual, etc.). By necessity, not all of these nuances could be explored; I also suspect that the vagueness is at least partly intentional, because it invites us to imbue the characters w/ those traits which make them more appealing (and therefore captivating) to us. It gives fan fiction writers immense room to wander through the house and pick up the characters' discarded clothing and make a wonderful wardrobe out of them. You make an interesting point about the constraints of canon; by contrast, I haven't tried my hand at an AU story yet and wonder if I will.



I'm glad you've started this thread. I look forward to seeing what other writers' processes look like. Sorry if my own thoughts are a little fuzzy here; I'm starting to feel the not-altogether-unpleasant effects of major cold medicines!



Mary

[blameburner]

Cool idea for a thread. I've had a few of these discussions with individual writers, but I think it will be interesting and helpful to see what some others have to say.



Hmm, where to begin... In answering some of the questions posed, I think my writing process is waaaaaay different now than it was for TG, my first story. In reality, TG was never supposed to be a full-fledged story. It was really only intended to be a three chapter piece, a sort of "moment in time" kind of thing where the reader is inserted into the middle of an ongoing story - there is obviously a before and after in terms of plot, but only the present is of any importance. But I found that the feedback I got from the Kittens was so positive that I wanted to continue. Indeed, in a way I felt like I needed to continue. What can I say, I'm a feedback-whore.



The problem, however, is that while I had come up with some basic overarching plot for the first three chapters (that the bad guy was TG, that they had been trying to figure out how to beat him for a while, etc.), there was a lot I hadn't figured out. But instead of sitting down and outlining the rest of the story, I just started writing, figuring out the rest of the plot as I went. This worked amazingly well for a while, but about half-way through I realized I had written myself into a corner, and I got stuck. I had to take about a month off to re-tool the story and create an outline that actually made sense. It was a very frustrating experience, because there were a lot of things I wanted to write differently in that story, but couldn't because I had already committed myself to a certain path with previous chapters, and so in order to keep some sense of continuity, I had to follow that path to its conclusion.



The hardest thing for me is to outline. I have never been big on outlining - I'm the girl in college who would write a 30 page paper by just sitting down to write the introduction and writing until I was finished, without ever having jotted down any notes about where I was going. The direction of whatever I'm writing generally develops as I write it, and the hardest thing for me to do is to keep my fingers of the leyboard until I've planned what I want to do. But, after having written TG, I learned the value of outlining, and have done it in one way or another ever since.



My way of outlining, however, is a little odd. It's very train-of-thought, using bullet points instead of outline form. I basically just bullet point things I'm thinking until I get most fo the plot down. Then I go back and divide the bullet points into chapters, and add or subtract from there. A bullet point can be as simple as a general idea, or could be the entire dialogue for a scene. For example, my outline for Part 1 of TOD said "T's thoughts about W at the Wicca meeting, W's thoughts about the meeting, and T." That was it. So I obviously had a lot of room to maneuver with that chapter when it actually came time for me to write it. Yet for the chapter where Willow has the big talk with Anya, I had that entire dialogue written out two months in advance - I just had to go back in and add the narrative.



Most of the time, my outline is sort of a combination of train-of-thought and dialogue. As I create the outline, I'll write a bunch of thoughts like "W sees T at library, is unsure what to say - T is nervous, but gets up confidence, goes over to W - T says something, and W says 'blah blah blah'". So I basically have the gist - that they're at the library, they're nervous, Tara's a bit more agressive, etc. But the how of what happens - whether Willow is standing by the bookshelf, whether Tara smiles or grins or bites her lip, etc. - I leave until I actually sit down to write it. As I'm thinking out the outline, sometimes I'll get a specific line or action in my head, and so I'll add the "W says 'blah blah blah'" so I don't forget, but I leave the rest until I write it.



I think there's a lot of pressure when it comes to writing your second story, and it comes mostly from yourself. You wonder whether the writing of your second story will live up to your first, whether you have the creative juices left to pump something else out that doesn't feel tired, whether the premise of your second story is as good as the first, etc. If your first story was of the longer variety (200+ pages, IMO), you wonder whether you have it in you to do it again. Those questions are what led me to do something totally different with my second story. I had already come up with the idea for TOD, and had a lot fo the basic plot figured out, but I just didn't think I could handle another long, action-adventure type story. So I opted for the relatively plot-less comedy, ITW. And honestly, I think that was the best choice I could have made, to write something quite different for the second story. Not only did it show me that I could write more comedy, but I think it helped relieve some of my own fears of expectation - by writing something so different, I felt there was less room for comparison between TG and ITW, so no one (myself included) would be going "oh, it's good, but not as good as TG." Because they were so different, each one could be judged on its own merits, I thought, rather than one against the other.



Which brings me to TOD, my AU story. Let me tell you, the thought of doing an AU set in S4 was very daunting. S4 is sooooooo canon, and so completely revered, that I was afraid of, well... I was just afraid. Plus there was the fact that I was starting with "Hush," which has been done many times and much better than I could ever do it. For the most part, however, it's been much less scary than I thought it was going to be. It was harder at first, because I started pretty much following canon, and so when I started to veer off, people were kind of still thinking in terms of canon. But as the story progressed, and we got further away from the show storyline, everyone got used to it and people were very open minded.



Well, now that I've rambled on forever, I hope that kind of provided one answer to some of the questions posed. I'm sure there are many other answers out there, and I'd be curious to see what they are.



-BB

[technopagan78]

Wow, great thread. I could not resist throwing in my own two cents.



It's nice to know I'm not the only one out there fretting over fan fic. While I hate to admit it, I am not big with the research. Most of the research that has gone into the story I am currently working on, Doppelganger Redux, was done for other reasons (I'm working on another writing project also dealing with memory--more specifically, ars memoria). I should mention that I rely on Rane (she so rules!) for beta help when it comes to BtVS details--like what color are Buffy's eyes, what song played in the ep Family. And I will confess here that I don't outline (which means I'm a huge hypocrite since I make my students outline, rough draft, etc--I so need to be shot). At best I make notes.



Where I go completely nuts is editing. I've been fussing over the next chapter of D.R. for weeks. (To my everlasting shame and as proof positive I'm the biggest dork on the planet, Xita caught me working on D.R. while we were in Vegas over the weekend. Yep, other kittens were engaging in drinking and debauchery while I was fixing paragraphs. I think I need a 12-step program.) And what has had me over a barrel these many weeks is point of view. Part One of D.R. was written in limited third person point of view alternating between Willow and the girl (Tara from the Doppelganger-verse); part two is being written from the unlimited third person point of view. What has become my bete noire is dialogue-especially Willow/Tara dialogue. I find myself tripping over how much to express through dialogue, how much to express through either character's internal thoughts, and how much to express through narration. Add to the mix the need to account for the points of view of Buffy, Giles, Dawn, Xander, Anya and it would seem that the challenge is almost impossible.



Earlier tonight, I think I hit upon the right mix, but who know how I will feel about it in the morning. One thing I have learned for sure, this is my last attempt to write chapters in the unlimited third person.

[Katharyn]

Dialogue? What is this dialogue you speak of?



Yeah... anyone who knows me knows that I don't really do the dialogue thing...



More on this great topic when I have a little time - other than to say that if the second long fic is tough (and mine was) then the third which I am doing now... *shudder.*



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




------------------------

[darkmagicwillow]

BB, your outlining process sounds a lot like mine for my first story. Maybe I'm a little odd too. I'm adding a lot more detail this time around though. You are right about the pressure coming from inside the writer. I like the idea of writing something completely different to help with that, but I'm so focused on one idea for my new story now that I'm not sure I could tear myself away from it.



Thinking of focus, technopagan, I definitely understand your obsession with editing. I've got a strong streak of perfectionism and it's just fun so I edit on my vacations too. It's also a lot less scary than the blank page, which is another thing I'm hoping the more detailed outline will help with. The page isn't quite as blank when you have your security blanket, er, outline, with you. How do those of you who don't outline deal with the fear of the blank page?



Like you and Katharyn, I find dialog difficult, especially in situations involving multiple characters. Internal thoughts, narrative description, and action are all easier to do. Unlike Antigone and Trom deGrey, plot always comes easier to me. As I watch or read a work of fiction, new plotlines are popping up in my head by the dozen, and it's the same while I'm building my outlines. For me, the difficulty is knowing which ideas to throw out, and that's also the one thing that can get me stuck in a story--hanging on to an idea that I love but that's constraining my possibilities. That's also where talking to someone can be of great help as they don't have my preconceptions about that problematic idea being necessary.



Character is difficult for me which is why I appreciate the rich potential of the characters of Buffy that Antigone describes so well. I'm very intrigued by your comment about your characters surprising you, Antigone. They've left enough space, both in character and plot, that I can work within their framework though I do strain against it at times. Setting is actually the most difficult constraint of Buffy for me to accept, though I think I've found my own key to that issue with my next story without writing an AU.



p.s.: I haven't read Bird by Bird, but it sounds good from the reviews at Amazon. Any other recommendations on books on writing? I liked Stephen King's On Writing.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 2/19/03 7:24:04 am

[JustSkipIt]

DMW, fantastic topic. I hope we will range through a series of topics in this post. I have a few in mind but don't want to derail this discussion.



My writing process has been very different for all my pieces regarding outlining, preparation, etc. My first fic, Two Days came to me basically as a way of understanding and accepting the events of the end of season 6. Not only for myself but I hoped for other readers. The concept floated through my head repeatedly during meditation and I started writing knowing where I wanted to go but without any outline. After a few parts Rachel wanted to join in and we made it a joint venture, still not outlining formally. We would discuss what was about to happen and what was important to us to communicate in that part before starting to write and then start writing. It flowed very smoothly and I mistakenly thought it would always be like that.



Then came Turned... I didn't outline it at all but wrote off the cuff. When I write, I usually think of the characters as doing or saying something. I try to put them in a room or field or whatever and see what they do. I'm just the vessel. And at the end, I try to see where I went. I love writing the dialog and characterizations and truly don't concentrate much on internal Dialog. I have to force myself to write the internal dialog and generally think ok, Katherine puts in 98 % ID, DMW 78%, can I get 30% into this scene? It's a conscious choice and effort to do it.



So, still working on Turned, I was writing and letting the characters go where they wanted. I knew the meaning of the tattoo and everything but not what else would happen. And I wrote myself into a corner. It was a nightmare for me. I finished and posted part 14 and thought it was great and a shocker and everything but… I had no idea where I was going. At that point I was just so lost. After letting it sit and I just couldn’t get where I wanted, I finally had to sit down and outline it.



I use the same technique for outlining Y’all as I do Turned with one difference. Turned has veered from the events of the show completely while in Y’all I’m still parrallelling the story. My outlining technique is very vague. I basically do bullet-points of events that will happen and in Y’all I place them roughly in the timeline of S3 episodes. But that’s it. Actually it occurs to me that this is pretty much the technique I use to write computer code too. I may make comments about the functionality that a module needs and then I just start writing the sub routines or functions that will produce that functionality.



I shy from the task of doing research to the point that I think to myself, “a real writer would have…” (learned to ride a horse, known the names for crystals and herbs, looked up some Latin for an incantation). But then … well, I still don’t do the research.



The feedback: what can you possibly say. I love the feedback from the Kittens. It’s wonderful and exciting. Sometimes I feel like it transforms the story. I have written a part with let’s say 3 important things to say. I would rank them (from most important to least) 2,3,1. But the feedback comes back and everyone comments on #1 and no one even noticed #2. And it’s like a postcard to me that I missed some focus somewhere. Or that I was a little too sly which I definitely try to do. I find myself walking a thin tightrope between wanting to be subtle and surprise readers later and wanting them to unravel my puzzles when I lay them down.



Well, I feel that I have embarked on a babble worthy of Willow. And in a thread about writing nonetheless. I guess this kind of illustrates my point. In this case, I am the character I allow to lead the piece. Hmmm.



Thanks for the topic. Debra

---

"War may be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary it is always evil." - President Jimmy Carter after receiving the Nobel Peace Prize

[Kieli]

Good lord, I read all of these responses and I feel like a total newbie writer with no concept. I don't go through all of these things that everyone else seems to when I write. Oddly enough, most of my ideas come from the oddest places, like my dreams.

I'm forever waking up in the middle of the night to bang away on a story or to frantically write down ideas before they become even more elusive.



"Come Away With Me" honestly was only supposed to be a vignette. I had never even dreamed that it would become the close to fifteen chapter monstrosity that it is now. I never even thought that anyone would remotely be interested. However, like others have said, Kitten feedback is just so damned encouraging, I felt compelled to go on. Soon, the story was controlling me more than I was controlling it. It became a part of me. It was only when I decided that some of Willow's Jewish heritage needed to be explored that I even started researching anything. Let me tell you, learning about the Kashrut (Kosher Laws), some Jewish customs and how to speak/write Yiddish was fun but exhausting.



It was after that I decided to create a vignette about Willow and her Zayde...one tends to think of Willow's life as almost completely miserable as the invisible child of Ira and Sheila Rosenberg. I thought that this was not always the case and thus "She's A Keeper" was born. "Passion Fruit" was a dare and "Any Day Now" was also the result of a dream. "The Amulet of St. James" is the only fic I'm writing that will take me forever to finish because a ton of research must be done to make sure I get the Welsh and ancient history correct.



As for writing in general, I am a mood person, plain and simple. I open up Microsoft Word or Notepad, stare at the blank screen and start to write. I keep on writing until I'm ready to stop. The most amazing things appear when I just let my mind remain open and uncluttered. I've no set method, use no outlines nor do I meticulously plan the fic into the slightest detail. I just let the story speak to me and listen very carefully to what it has to say.



*sheesh* All that to say that I am a rank amateur and proud of it!



Cheers!

Toni

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[JustSkipIt]

Quote:

---

I open up Microsoft Word or Notepad, stare at the blank screen and start to write. I keep on writing until I'm ready to stop.

---

I read a quote once and can't remember who said it but I saw it again the other day. It goes something like:



"Writing is easy. You sit and stare at a blank piece of paper until the blood starts to drip from your forehead onto the paper."



DMW:

Quote:

---

p.s.: I haven't read Bird by Bird, but it sounds good from the reviews at Amazon. Any other recommendations on books on writing? I liked Stephen King's On Writing.

---

There is a John Irving book of short stories. I can't remember the name but it's a recent one. In it he has some essays about his teaching creative writing seminars. Some funny stuff about the way some of his students try to develop "ideas".

---

"War may be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary it is always evil." - President Jimmy Carter after receiving the Nobel Peace Prize

Edited by: JustSkipIt at: 2/19/03 12:33:37 pm

[DarkWiccan]

DMW, awesome idea... I know that all the others have said so before me, but just had to throw my props in as well.



The method to my madness has always been a reliance on my characters to tell me what to do. This can be very frustrating at times b/c I'll want my characters to move ahead with something, discover something, learn something, etc... and they tell me ,"nope not ready yet, I need to do this first"... and then they do that...whatever it is.



There is a lot of stuff that I don't know about my characters until they tell me. A great exampe would be Joseph in TYA. I didn't know he was deaf until he showed up and started signing. It wasn't this heavy decision that I had agonized over for hours/days/weeks... he just came that way. Another example would be the character of Kendra, an african american nurse from NMWYG... I needed someone to get W/T from T's hospital room to Obstetrics and she just barged in and said, "I'll do it, honey" and took over the entire scene. I actually got quite a few emails complaining that I was racist against african americans and prejudiced against "butch" lesbians. I tried to explain, "Hey, that wasn't me! It was Kendra... I just took dictation." I myself have no problem with african americans, butches, or even butch african americans. Kendra had attitude and wasn't afraid to show it... and as a result, I allowed her to say her peace.



I do outline... pretty heavily...but b/c I give so much freedom to my characters, the outline acts mainly as a reference guide to a timeline of actions and events. How the characters react to these events is purely up to them and always a surprise. Like at the end of TYA, I had no idea that W was going to propose the idea of more kids to T... that was solely her.



As far as writing sequels... TYA was an accident. I was walking from my apartment to my friend Jon's house when I started to kind of vocalize the dialogue to the first scene... (I talk to myself alot... but it's almost always b/c I'm testing dialogue... almost...) Anyway... so I'm walking and creating this really interesting scene and it occured to me that the NMYWG characters obviously had something more to say and were determined to say it... so I let them.



Almost all of my ideas come to me first in the form of dialogue... or what I like to call a "dialogue map". I think that this is due almost entirely to my being an actress and a playwright... I think dialogue first, descriptive narrative later. Usually I will sit down and write a dialogue map like this:



W: I just don't understand the necessity of baking muffins.

T: Because when the PTA passed around the bake sale sign-up sheet at the last meeting, you wrote down "Muffin-y Goodness".

W: Yeah well, I didn't realize it was a sign-up, I thought it was a vote thing. You know, "What do you want at the PTA Bake Sale?" and I answered, "Muffin-y Goodness", ya know for... muffin-y goodness. (long pause). Can't we just buy them?



And then when I sit down to write the scene I fill in the narrative thusly:



Willow leaned heavily on the kitchen counter, her hands gooey and blue from the muffin mix and fruit. "I don't understand the necessity of baking muffins", she grumbled.





etc...



There was a point to this and I've lost it...



The biggest difficulty I have is starting a story and then not finishing it... and it's almost never because I am bored with an idea... it's usually b/c my *characters* get bored with an idea... or they stop telling me what they want and I kind of stall out...



Joan of Arc eat your heart out...



When this happens, I will generally ditch the idea for a good few months... and sometimes it stays ditched and other times the characters show back up with apologies, roses and the occasional box of chocolates and we start over... or pick up where we left off.



This is why I've decided never to post episodically again... All my characters effectively went on strike in the middle of TYA... meanwhile I've got readers chanting "more! more!" and nothing to give them... it was too stressful... So from now on nothing goes up until it is completely done...



Galldernit...



Yeah so.. I've babbled way to much...



You all either think I'm insane or... well yeah insane pretty much covers it.



Cheers

DW

[technopagan78]

Okay, so I am getting a consensus that outlining facilitates planning and, possibly more importantly, creating a foundation for a story--but I often get things wrong, so don't take my word on it.



I think the reason why I don't outline is because for me the story comes in pictures. I see a scene, characters doing something, things happening, and then, over time, I catch on to the dialogue, the significance of the action, place, etc. I spend a great deal of time walking places or sitting and staring off into space while I figure out the picture in my mind's eye. For me, DR is a series of pictures, a girl lying face down in a dusty, cold basement, four women sitting in a circle, a little cat with one white leg, Tara sitting on a pile of clothes with sunlight streaming in behind her, Willow standing in the doorway of the Magic Box and seeing what cannot be, vampire attacks in a dark alley and on a street, Willow's hand falling away empty, and so forth. My notes simply record the picture (sometimes I actually draw the picture but most of the time the picture stays in my head fully intact).



Narrative and then plot come afterward, and characterization comes from the narrative. I already know in a general sense where DR is going, I know, for example, how it will end. But I do find myself getting sidetracked when a new picture comes to mind.



More on this later....

[Patches]

I’ve found the greatest boon and hindrance for writing is a simple emotion, fear. Fear, in all it’s incarnations drives me. The largest chunk of this fear is insecurity – what will people think; is what I’m writing any good? Will the readers think I’m an idiot; will I embarrass myself; will they laugh at me; will they think I’m crazy: will they think I’m an illiterate twit with ill conceived illusions of grandeur, but the worst of it is, will they think all these things and not tell me, instead allowing me to continue to humiliate myself. Having answered yes to these questions more often than not, most of what I’ve written ended up in the shredder long before it saw the light of day or “the end” on the final page.



I never realized how far out on a “limb” a writer goes when he or she offers something for public consumption. Even in the anonymous world of cyberspace, there’s still a sense of trepidation as ones finger hovers over the send button. Writing is such a personal experience, your thoughts, your words, your emotions open for public consumption. Well, maybe I have realized this subconsciously and that’s why I shred everything before I let anyone read it. (lol)



This fear of humiliation also drives me to continually strive to improve. As a student, I crawled from “D” to “B+”. In my final year, as I watched dreams of grad school fade to nothing, my prof’s words rung in my ears, “you share a common trait with my colleagues from Yale. You are a marvellous speaker, but you cannot write.” Those words haunt me. Part of what drives me as a writer is the desire to negate last bit of her comment.



One of the things I’ve found most helpful with the writing process is honest constructive criticism, both positive and negative. When something works, it’s nice to hear why it worked. (Mary, I’ve noticed from your feedback you’re particularly good at articulating why a particular scene worked.) Conversely, when something doesn’t work, it’s important to understand why it doesn’t work. With my writing, I love it when some one says, “this sucks, here’s why and here’s a suggestion on how to fix it.” Chances are if you’ve had trouble with a section, the reader’s going to have even more difficulty.



I find one of the hardest things to over come (aside from grammar, spelling and punctuation) are the mistakes borne from haste, which, of course, include grammar, spelling and punctuation. It seems that the story is more important than where a friggin’ comma’s supposed to go – except, I suspect this way of thinking is a catch 22, since without proper structure, a good story gets lost.



I don’t really use traditional structured outlines for my writing. My brain is far too undisciplined for that. Usually I have the story concept “written” in my head before pen ever hits paper (or, I guess it’s now, fingers hit keyboard). I like to just sit down and let the story flow from whatever muse is tormenting me at the time. When I get excited about what I’m writing, I can turn out a full-length chapter, sometimes more, in a day. I kinda “zone out” the world and get lost in what I’m writing.



I’m finding having a beta reader incredibly helpful. What I’ve learned so far is that my “chapters” are turning into incredibly elaborate outlines. I’ve also learned that writing the first draft is easy, it’s the editing and the flushing out of the story that’s the bitch (well, that on top of grammar, spelling and punctuation).



Great thread DMW, there’s much wisdom to be shared here.



Cheers!!

Patches

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

[TromDeGrey]

Quote:

---

I think the reason why I don't outline is because for me the story comes in pictures.

---

techno- Yes, yes, yes! I find that I can visualise an entire scene and then have to work my ass off to get in on paper. But by visualising, I've found that I also experience the scene more and can write it as such. Temperature, smells, light, etc.



Patches- Talk to me about fear sweetie! A year's worth of work pissed on in two weeks time. I haven't posted a piece of fiction in four years. It's made me all the more determined to put out something enjoyable now.



DW- Thank goodness I'm not the only person who just takes dictation sometimes! I thought I was crazy there for a while as I started writing this current monster I'm trying to cobble together. It covers seven or eight days, and I have a rough idea of what I want to happen each day, but sometimes the characters just take off with it and others appear out of nowhere. *shrug* Who knew?





A word on AU fics if I may. I currently have four stories in various stages. Three of them are AU. I've given a lot of thought as to why I keep wanting to take our girls out of Sunnydale, or at least ME's basic version of Sunnydale. I can only surmise it's because I was never a huge fan of the show. Willow interests me. Tara, probably because she was so underdeveloped on the show, really interests me. Their relationship interests me. I just can't get myself to write the BuffyVerse though. I LOVE reading those types of fic. Things like The Edge of Silence where we get to see "back scenes" if you will, or any of the other great fics that take canon and make it a thousand times better than ME could ever make it, but I just really struggle to write it. I thought perhaps it might be because, as a Wiccan, the show managed to offend me on a regular basis. It has also occurred to me that I may simply not be disciplined enough to write well in canon. I really don't know. All I really know is that the one fic I'm trying to hammer out that is in canon is a gimmicky type of story and is currently going absolutely nowhere.



Is it discipline I'm lacking?

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."

Chinese Proverb

[Sassette]

Lacking discipline? Nope - just interest. Like you say, you'll enjoy reading W/T stories set in the BuffyVerse - but it sounds to me like, because you don't particularly care for the BuffyVerse outside of W/T, that it's just not your writing focus.



To me, that's the beauty of fanfiction - you get to take what interests you, and leave the rest. While it certainly is challenging to do something that actually fits in with canon, why go there when you don't have to, and don't particularly want to? It's not like any of us are writing for the show and/or getting paid for this - which means our creative freedom is actually greater than the poor schlubs who do this for a living.



So if writing canon isn't to your liking, go with your AU's.



-Sass

[darkmagicwillow]

I don't have time to respond to everything, but I thought I'd post a few thoughts.



I get a lot of my story in pictures too, but I'm very into outlining. My outlines and notes often include visual descriptions that seem particularly important to me too. I find it very important to write something down about the visuals of a scene, especially for scenes I won't be writing for weeks or months. It doesn't have to be complete, just enough to jog my memory to bring up the picture again. While on this topic, I have to mention one of my favorite books, Temple Grandin's Thinking in Pictures. She's an autistic engineer who can see her machines but not so easily describe them, and knows that they're going to work because she can run them in her head. Great book for seeing how people think so differently.



On AU's, I've watched Buffy from day one because of Willow, who's about the only character I've identified with on televison, but there's a lot that appeals to me about the Buffyverse setting. It has a lot of potential, even though or perhaps because there are a lot of holes in it. It's vague enough that you can adapt it to fit your own stories. I like that. It also has a lot of history to hang stories off of, though like you, I don't think I have the discipline to write a story that fits within the interstices of that history.



I'm more into taking the Buffyverse at a particular point in time, and going with my own story from there, totally ignoring their version of events after that point. Is that an AU? As Sassette suggests, it is part of the greater freedom that we have as fanfic writers. The Buffy writers and novelists can't do a lot of the most interesting things that we can.



I don't particularly like magic in the Buffyverse outside of season 4 where it was a beautiful metaphor for the W/T relationship, but that's primarily because it's usually just a device to get the Scoobies out of impossible situations. In early seasons, Willow (and the other Scoobies too) had to be smart to get out of situations; later, they just handwaved it with magic. I'd like to see a coherent, consistent theory of magic for the Buffyverse and that's something I've attempted to do with my next story.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 2/20/03 5:14:42 pm

[AntigoneUnbound]

God, there's so much good stuff here that I could easily spend all my time in this thread and never actually do that which we discuss. (Sorta like when I wrote my dissertation--my house was never cleaner; my coffee never fresher!)



Technopagan, I share your habit, or style, of visualizing scenes. One of the times when I'm most excited to write a particular chapter is when I just perch myself in some setting (Tara's room; Giles' place) and hang out in the corner watching people do things. This occurs most frequently after I've reached what feels like a solid place in the story such that the characters do have some reasonable agency or definition. And sometimes the wildest things come out of their mouths and I think, "Well who would have predicted that?" I get into trouble, it seems, when I'm hell-bent that a certain person will do a certain thing or react a certain way. Almost invariably, that character will dig in her heels in some fashion and even if I do manage to drag her through the motions, it's just terribly unwieldy and everyone is embarrassed. (And here I envision my mother deciding that this is where I get my payback for being such an obstinate child myself.) Outlines never seem to work for me; I think it's because my mind simply doesn't bend itself well to that structure. I can't really think of any other way to put it. Even when I'm doing professional presentations, my "outlines" always turn into narratives. Power Point? I think not...



One of the other things that tends to happen to me a lot is that I get my characters into situations without necessarily knowing what will happen to them. With Willow and Tara, obviously, I know they'll emerge safe and united, but how will they get there? Talk about makin' it up on the fly...Sometimes this works out OK, but at other times I get too frustrated and move on. I have one story that I began about four years ago--it's over 150 pages and has some really good aspects to it, I think, but I left the protagonist at the breakfast table drinking coffee a little over two years ago and I suspect she's really pissed by now. At the very least, she needs to go to the bathroom.



And Patches, m'dear, let me offer up an "Amen" on the fear subject. Your descriptions really capture that feeling, and yes, the worst fear of all is that no one will tell you that the new shirt you just bought makes you look like the kid in seventh grade who always ate lunch alone because she sucked her Jello up through a straw. Everyone will commend you on your style and daring and then huddle together just off-stage, murmuring about how embarrassing it all is. Oh, yeah--I get it. And what fascinates me (as a psychologist and someone who likes to write) is that we continue to do it. Why? What do we get out of it, such that we walk naked in front of the entire school, and not only do we not try to hide, we actually invite scrutiny and commentary? What the f--k is that all about?



And yes, the little demons of spelling, punctuation, and grammar...I have to say that I've always loved such things. I was the kid who looked forward to spelling bees in school and kept a dictionary beside my bed because a word might pop into my head at any moment and I'd need to look it up. (Of course, vocabulary is different from spelling; just sorta pointing out the verbal geekiness to which I aspired.) You make a very, very good point about the interplay between form and content: true, the story is more important than the punctuation, but the punctuation is what brings home so much of the nuance and subtle distinction in tone and style.



And that's my two cents' worth, late on this Thursday night (where I'm at). Great ideas, everyone; I'm loving the thoughts I read here!

Edited by: AntigoneUnbound at: 2/20/03 9:27:43 pm

[cinderlust]

love this thread! It's actually in the same vein as a discussion I had with a friend a few days ago. I was trying to express the fact that before I write a particular scene, I tend to pull back and watch what happens among the characters. She called me crazy. I answered with my sanest smile ever.



That aside, yes, I relate with Techonopagan and Mary. I tend to visualize scenes - putting the characters in certain poses, positions, dimming the light a little, letting them play with a stress ball etc. Then I sit back and watch the characters' movements, conversations, expressions, etc. I rather enjoy doing it and hope it's not an after effect of my mother's weed consumption while she was pregnant with me. heh.



As far as outlining is concerned, I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive by nature so it follows that I would. It's also necessary for work because no script is ever going to be accepted without going through treatment first. That said, I decided to go freestyle, no outline nor restrictions, for my first fic. This is how I play bad girl. Geez. I need help.



The problem with my writing style is that I've gotten used to always cutting things short. Quick-paced and to the point. I started writing here to get away from that, but I can't seem to escape it.



LOL. And yet I seem to have babbled enlessly here. heh.

[darkmagicwillow]

I love hearing how everyone approaches writing differently, particularly when people give examples from stories I've read. It's an illuminating experience, and I'm looking forward to doing some rereading with your comments in mind. Thanks to everyone who has shared their different experiences with their stories. It makes me tempted to find someone on Pens to do an "Interview with the Authors" thread, and I'm also reminded that, as always, there's so much on Pens that I haven't read yet.



All the comments about getting stuck without an outline have convinced me that I really do like outlining, not because you can't get stuck, but because when you do, you can rework your story and only lose a couple pages of outline.



As I've thought about my methods, I realized that I actually start making the outline with something that's more of a timeline or a history of what's happened before the story. The dark Willow timeline I posted to Antigone's story thread is a chunk of that timeline for The Dark Rose. The history, both the canonical and the noncanonical parts of it, gives me the foundation for my plot and a basis for understanding my characters. A small percentage of this history will find its way into the story as flashbacks (or a large percentage in the case of The Dark Rose with all the scenes and visions of Willow's past), but most of it is there to inform the actions of the present and will be revealed only indirectly.



I didn't start working with timelines intentionally, but I suspect it's because I've always constructed alternate histories since I was a young child and first fell in love with classical civilization. I remember my mother asking me in a rather concerned tone of voice if I understood which histories were real and which I made up. I did, of course, but the created ones are more fun, aren't they?



I've always reworked other author's stories in my head and often built new stories in their settings. In high school and university, I expressed this creativity by gamemastering role-playing games, spending many more hours behind the scenes building history and characters than I ever did playing the game with my friends. How did all of you first express your creativity with words, whether or not you ever wrote them down?



For all the good things I've said about outlines, I agree with many writers that the format is limiting. It's too linear. Writing is a linear form of art, but the story in my mind is a multi-dimensional object that I project onto the linear form of the two-dimensional page. I'd like something where I could store my idea with all of those extra dimensions, then view it in multiple projections like the BuffyDB Arc List lets you do. Let me know if you find anything like that.



Antigone, I love your thoughts on writing as exhibitionism. And I thought I was shy! Patches describes the fear of writing so well. Given that fear, it's an interesting question about where the urge to share our writing comes from. For me, a small part of the reason for sharing is Pens. After getting so much good fan fiction from the group, I felt a need to add something to the community by sharing my writing. I hadn't had that feeling before with the lifeless story archives, but the community here helped push me a little bit more towards posting.



As I have to leave, I realize that I wrote all this and I still haven't discussed half the thoughts out there, but that'll have to wait for another post.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 2/21/03 7:10:07 am

[LadyCallie]

My two cookies (yes they are homemade)-





When I write I nit-pick every little thing and then detail it thoroughly. Consequently, I have trouble making my characters move anywhere. They like to sit and brood more. Also because of that I'm rather dialogue heavy.



So I guess my question is- How do I write action? Simply or complex? Everytime I've tried it's taken 2 beta readers to get it to a decent place.



Hugs,

-LadyCallie

~*~

RealLiveTara is my RealLiveGirlfriend! *swoons*

"It doesn't have to be a really frenchish french, I just wanna feel your tongue."- my girlfriend last night.

"I don't wanna come out of the closet. All my clothes are in there!" -Me

[Katharyn]

Once again I do not have the time to give this discussion the attention that it deserves (enjoyiong reading though!)... but to answer LadyCallie's question about action:



I am a person who felt that she should suck at writing action. I wrote action and I thought that it sucked... but then people actually seem to like it. Still, after a few large set piece scenes, I am toughest on those parts when I look at the writing.



Why? I think it is because I try to write what I see in my head. That isn't to say you need to plan everything out - but you need to write what you see. Action is very visual, think of an episode or a film, describe the scene as you would if it was one of those (not script.) You need to describe not necessarily every move, but enough of them, enough conseuqences and yes enough mental/emotional reaction to suck the reader in and show them the picture.



That seems to work, people seem to like it, but I am still tough on myself... and I think that is for the same reason. When I write what I visualise (rather than what I feel) I am always distatisified with the cold text rather than the full visual picture.



Don't forget the benefit of text though - you can go places that a visual can't. You can show the thought processes directly. If you do that in the rest of the story also do it in the action. Stay true to your style.



Hope that helps.



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




------------------------

[darkmagicwillow]

At first, I dismissed concerns about punctuation as I know the rules of grammar (or at least think I do), but I've gradually come to the realization that there's a real art to punctuation. It can't be reduced to a simple series of rules when you're writing fiction. Punctuation controls the pace at which the reader moves through your story and to some extent establishes a mood.



Pace is where punctuation connects to action. Shorter sentences, holding the semicolons, always help. But there's obviously much more to action than punctuation. People like my action scenes, and I loved Katharyn's scene with the Master in Sidestep, but I'm not quite sure what makes these scenes work though I can tell when one doesn't.



Do any kittens who have mastered the art of punctuation have any words of wisdom?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[LadyCallie]

Thanks Katharyn, that helps me think differently...almost flip-floping. I'll let you know what comes out of my action scenes.







-LC

~*~

RealLiveTara is my RealLiveGirlfriend! *swoons*

"It doesn't have to be a really frenchish french, I just wanna feel your tongue."- my girlfriend last night.

"I don't wanna come out of the closet. All my clothes are in there!" -Me

[blameburner]

Well, DMW I certainly do not consider myself an expert on punctuation (or writing, or pretty much anything, really), but I'll throw my hat in the ring.



I completely agree with you that punctuation controls the pace of the story - or, at least, it can do that. I try as much as possible to follow the basic rules of grammar, as I know when I read something that is very grammatically incorrect I get distracted. So I try to follow the rules, but I also believe that those rules are made to be bent, as some of them are arcane and really disruptive to the flow of a story.



For example, I certainly realize that a sentence needs nouns and at least one action verb (yes, yes, this is a really bad explanation for the rules of grammar - I'm definitely no english teacher) to be an actual "sentence" in the technical sense. However, when I'm writing about a characters thoughts or emotions, sometimes I want to use a short non-traditional sentence to break up the pace for the reader, or to highlight something important. Instead of writing:

She didn't know how she felt, what she believed, or who she was.

I might write:

She didn't know how she felt, what she believed. Who she was.



It may seem like an inconsequential difference, but I think the second sentence(s) work much better than the first. I guess I just feel like sometimes the rules of punctuation need to take a backseat to the needs of the story, and how I want the audience to read a particular passage. So I use things like elipses and dashes and odd sentence structure to make the story read more like it plays in my head when I write it, and I just hope that the readers will forgive my lapses in grammatical fundamentals.



-BB

[technopagan78]

BB and DMW, I agree with the idea that punctuation helps set the pace. Short declarative sentences make more sense in an action sequence than compound sentences that meander through and around various conditionals. But as fond as I am of the semicolon (my god it's almost unnatural, this fondness), its function seems to me more facilitative than creative.



For me punctuation's primary purpose is to display and demonstrate the logic of ideas (revealing associations and contradictions). On one occasion, I might write, "Roses are red. Violets are blue," as separate sentences and thus draw attention to two pieces of information. On another occasion, I might write "Roses are red; violets are blue" to mark the association between similar observations. On yet another occasion, I might write, "Roses are red, but violets are blue," to reveal contrast. But at the end of the day what matters most is that roses are red and violets are blue; flowers come in different colors.



On the other hand, when trying to convey something visual, there's nothing like a fragment! (The next chapter of the story I've been working on is full of them!) I guess the trick is to be able to more or less control when you are writing grammatically and when you are not. I agree with BB that non-grammatical writing can be distracting and at times tedious; still, I sometimes worry that fear of grammar keeps people from writing. One thing that I've noticed a great deal on Pens and elsewhere is that people who claim they cannot write usually mean that they have an uncertain knowledge of grammar, punctuation and mechanics. How many wonderful stories have been lost out of fear of the comma?



Getting back to this idea of pace. While I agree that punctuation can be used to establish pacing, the hard stop of the period, the soft stop of the comma, so can words themselves. Consider, for example, the lovely opening to Henry V (it's Sunday night, Alias will be on in two minutes, why not go for a pretentious example?).



O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend

The brightest heaven of invention,

A kingdom for a stage, princes to act

And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!



The opening slides off the tongue with tremendous speed until the word "invention." At which point, the speech slows and breaks apart into the two phrases: "a kingdom for a stage" followed by "princes to act." The two phrases use sound to establish hierarchy-the sonorous, "a kingdom for a stage," followed by the lively (and less consequential), "princes to act," at which point the pacing picks up speed once again, "and monarchs to behold the swelling scene!" (Listen for all of the lovely "s" sounds in monarchs, swelling and scene. Forget what I said about the semicolon, I'm now all with the "s".)



Grammar, punctuation and mechanics are necessary and significant but I think that writing begins somewhere else and is not necessarily destroyed by a comma splice. Patches struck me to the core by an earlier post. (It seems to me that any professor who tells a student he or she cannot write cannot teach.) For me the best writing is not flawless. Rather, it is writing that delivers to me a new understanding or a new perspective.



For me poor writing is announced not so much by the ill use of commas and semicolons but by inadequate elaboration and shallowness of detail. But who wants poor examples, let's refer to some brilliant ones.



Tulipp's Bread, for example, is for me a terrific character study that beautifully explores the shape of grief through the use of metaphor. Reading it added to my humanity. Tommo's Spells of Speech and Silence gives us a wealth of information in the most economical of passages.



"Her gaze snapped back to the hand on her knee. The hand whose fingers were laced with her own. Following the smooth skin of that hand up to the wrist, and then further, up the blue jacketed arm of the girl opposite her, Willow finally reached two eyes that peered out at her from behind a veil of yellow hair. Two eyes that were the color of a heavy summer sky, just before nightfall. Two eyes that blinked, once, and then glistened with a shadowed confusion."



In the movement of Willow's eyes we discover the bond between W and T as well as T's shyness and confusion. Great stuff, I'm sure everyone would admit.



Okay, I've no idea where I'm going with all of this except that I'm throwing over the "s" in favor of the metaphor. Alias is on!

Edited by: technopagan78 at: 2/23/03 9:02:42 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

Some of the comments about punctuation, especially Technopagan's analaysis of that Henry V quote, have led me to wonder about the connection between reading and writing. See, I didn't slow down when I read the word "invention" until I went back and reread the passage, consciously making the sounds of the words in my head.



When I read, what happens is precisely the opposite of how many posters have described their writing process. The words on the page generate an image of what's happening in my head, without any conscious intermediate process involving the sounds of the words. When people ask me how to pronounce a character's name from a foreign novel, I can't answer them because I've never heard that name in my head. I recognize character names like pictographs, treating them like a compiler program treats variable names, not like symbolic representations of sound.



However, I think that punctuation is easier if you do hear the words, and so feel the short pauses of commas and the almost halting of semicolons. Sometimes I will sound out a sentence in my head if I'm feeling uncertain about the punctuation. Do most people hear their words as they read and write and punctuate based on the natural pauses they feel, or do they try to follow the rules without hearing the sounds?



p.s.: I thought it worth noting that punctuation is not a necessary element of writing. Writing predates punctuation and spacing by thousands of years. Of course, once you've tried to read an inscription without it, you quickly understand how useful an invention punctuation was.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Patches]

To catch up a bit on previous comments, let me start first with visualization. I find visualization to be an important part of the writing process, but I also rely quite a bit on how the scene “feels” as I’m writing and what emotion is inspiring me to write. I find my own visuals of a scene somewhat surreal, or dream like and unfocused – it’s not until I set it down in words that anything remotely concrete emerges. I write what I feel, and have noticed that when I feel the energy of a scene, it really works. When I can’t grasp the emotion of the words, I have trouble writing (yes, I believe each word has an emotion – don’t ask, it’s a “thing”). I start with a single frame and build the story around that frame. Based on that one frame, I immediately “build” the character based on who (is in the picture), what (are they doing), when (time of day, season, year etc.), where (are they), why (are they there) and so what (the platform the story is built on, plot etc).



The visual emerges from words, thoughts and feelings. I find when I reach this Zen state of writing everything flows naturally. Ah yes, gotta love hyperfocus.



What I find most difficult about writing action isn’t so much “seeing” what’s happening as it is translating movement and atmosphere into words without making the story bog/slow down. I’m definitely not a descriptive writer. I can see what’s happening, but I can’t (or don’t want to) describe it clearly; I’m very impatient this way. With the fic I’m working on now, I’m being prodded to explore detailed descriptive writing, and am finding it quite a challenge. My current chapter has progressed from 2,000 to almost 4,000 words – and is (hope, pray) much better in the telling. While the images certainly exist in my head, getting them on paper (so to speak) is hard work.



I find dialogue easy to write. I have no difficulty letting my characters find their own voices and drive the story. Fan fic is more difficult as they’re not “my” characters, and while we/I can alter certain attributes or plot lines, the characters are somewhat confined by their pre-existing nature.



Justskipit – God! You mean there’s supposed to be a point (points, purpose??) Gulp. Regarding research, I’m so reminded of “write what you know.” What you don’t know, research the hell out of, because someone, somewhere, is really going to know a lot about what you’re trying to bluff your way through. It all comes back to that humiliation factor. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.



Hey, speaking of humiliation, (I’m trying to work on transitions and segues) ... Ah, Mary – weekly spelling bees, I rather remember them this way, “Spelling 101: Intro to Torture and Public Humiliation.” So, here I am, 30 years later looking at my story and feeling like my teacher has just asked me to spell ‘chrysanthemum,’ but I’ve only just finished book three of the “See Spot Run” series. Indeed, what the f**k.





Technopagan, perhaps my prof’s choice of words was poor, but she was correct. In academia, you live by the pen. It doesn’t matter what’s in your head, it’s what’s on the page that counts. I received the wonderful kiss-of-death-you’re-a-good-student-but-you’re-not-grad-material grade of “B” and thus a ticket to the work force instead of grad school because I could say it, but I couldn’t write it. Punctuation and poor spelling are the bane of my existence.



Had a thunk to throw into the mix regarding structure and style. DMW was commenting on reading vs. writing style. I like to “experience” reading, take the author’s words and create my own world from them. I like to use my imagination. For example, an author can spend two pages describing a forest, but I’d be happy with a paragraph or two. My mind fills in everything else. I’ve found my own writing reflects this. Anyone else have this kind of experience.

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

[AntigoneUnbound]

Patches, you ask a good question re: the role of detail. I'm not so much of a detail person in either my reading or my writing--like you, my mind tends to provide its own scenery. However, when I'm writing, I try to remind myself that certain details will help ensure that I hit the tone or ambiance I'm trying to create. I like adjectives that have a fair amount of subjectivity to them (e.g., "dark") so that I convey an atmosphere but that the reader doesn't feel like I'm painting every last inch on the wall and leaving them no room for their own touches. This, of course, is very much a style thing.



I'm far more likely to go bat-shit about punctuation than physical details. I have a t-shirt that reads, "Does anal retentive have a hyphen?" And the fact that I ponder such things says volumes about how I write.



Interesting balance, it seems, w/ the preferred writing styles in this regard.



Mary

Edited by: AntigoneUnbound at: 2/26/03 8:30:20 pm

[technopagan78]

Mary, while I see your point (what an amusing expression--the confusion of seeing and knowing) for me one of the wondrous things about stories is that they can pull me out of my own head. I rather like descriptive detail for that reason. I like seeing a world through another's eyes. I see the world everyday, but through my own preconceptions. Extraordinary description can simultaneously release me from and remind me of the prison-house of my own memories and expectations, thus allowing me to see the world anew. I read the word forest and think of the forests of my childhood. I think of elms, oaks and pines. My default doesn't include Magnolias or Joshua Trees. Detail takes me places I might not otherwise go.

[Patches]

Technopagan's reply got me wanting to take a step sideways here. Proper grammar is a given (even if it often *ahem* fails in execuation ) but, it did get me thinking about individual style. I'm wondering, which is more important to you as a writer and a reader - character or plot? (yes, I understand a good story has just the right balance of both - but that's not what I'm after with this question.)



I can't finish reading a story if I can't find a way to empathize with at least one of the characters. For example, a friend recommended Djuanna Barnes' Nightwood, which still sits on my night table, unfinished, because all I kept thinking was how much I desperately wanted the main character to off himself - and, damn it, he wouldn't do it! Likewise Beloved, which is an amazing story, sits, unfinished, on the nightstand. The characters just don't grab my imagination.



If I find an affinity for a character, I'll follow him or her (and the author) to the end of the universe. However, works lacking fully realized characters always leave me wanting. The best example is Donaldson's Thomas Covenant (sp?) series - anytime something bad happened to him, I felt slightly giddy. Now, that's about all I remember of them. In contrast, I really liked Donaldson's Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through - the difference being the characters.



So what say you, learned Kittens - which comes first, the plot or the character, who's in the driver's seat? I guess for me, it's the characters.



P.



ETA: I wrote this late last night, hope it's a little clearer now (Patches learns a new lesson - proper rest is an effective writing tool)

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Edited by: Patches at: 2/27/03 9:48:53 am