Coping With Life In Gay-Unfriendly Places

[maudmac]

Hey, Kittens. It sucks that there are any such places, places where we aren't as welcome as we ought to be.



But there are and there's no doubt that many (probably most) of us have had some experience in gay-unfriendly places. Maybe you're from such a place, maybe you live in one now, maybe you will find yourself travelling through one someday, or perhaps even living in one in the future.



So, how did/do you cope with that? When all around you are people who may think you're sick, perverted, disgusting, evil, and/or dangerous. How do you deal with that day-to-day?



What makes a place gay-unfriendly? Is it the laws? Is it the attitudes of the people? What about pockets of gay-friendliness in gay-unfriendly places? Or pockets of gay-unfriendliness in otherwise gay-friendly places? How do you react when you encounter that?



And what do you want to do about gay-unfriendly places? Should we stay in them and try to transform them from within? (Is that possible?) Should we get the hell out and find a place that already accepts us the way we are?



So here's a thread for us to talk about how we deal with or have dealt with life in a gay-unfriendly place. We can probably help each other out.

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when i hear music it makes me dance

[fakhra]

That's good topic to talk about given the unfair treatment gays experience.



I come from a society where this behavior is unacceptable. People talk about them as if they are weird or paranoid or in case of females, reactionaries as they couldn't hook up with guys.



People think I am a nerd, living in my own world, not knowing how reality functions all of which is not true. They think I am indifferent to males because I think too much about other things. But they don't have the slightest idea of how wrongly they think about me and I don't care. As long as I know and content with it, I don't really feel the need to announce my real identity. It doesn't matter. What matters is your happiness. Societies are usually tied to traditional ways and change takes time, so if you were to survive in a gay unfriendly place, be yourself but don't announce it. Internalize it.



I can admit that I am a bit modest but at the same time I like being around these people as long as they don't poke into the identity question.



What say?

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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so if you were to survive in a gay unfriendly place, be yourself but don't announce it. Internalize it.

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Ah, but is that possible, over any length of time? If you're "internalized" and not announcing, you can survive: but is that really "being yourself"?



Doesn't that presume celibacy, unless you can find someone else prepared to (completely) internalize? And even so, what kind of stress does that put on a relationship?



I myself am the world's biggest "internalizer" and closet-case. But I'm also---surprise, surprise---partnerless (and my area, and town, in Michigan is sort of so-so on the gay friendly/unfriendly scale: the local college is holding a Coming Out Week next week but you better believe all the events are on-campus only!).*



Obviously, gays in unfriendly places have been given a huge boost via the internet (Haaaal-le-lujah! Hallelulah! ). But I'm one of those old-fashioned types who believes that an essential, if not very best, part of a relationship occurs Up-Close-and-Personal in the Real World and you just can't internet your way around that (w/ the attendant "what will the neighbors think" factor . . . which I'm a tiny bit paranoid about even in my principal platonic relationship! )



So where does that leave me? Really and virtually, in Hypocrisy Land: feeling like, I shouldn't have to leave my smalltown to find love and freedom, and yet taking very few of the (risky, yet opportune) steps to make "love and freedom" a more envisionable possibility within this particular town/region/ state (to the extent I do anything, it's more about "inside the family" code: the rainbow peacesticker on my car, the little rainbow flag in my hanging planter outside my door. The tougher question will be when I can get a "No on the [Anti-Gay Marriage] Amendment" sticker: am I bold enough?).



GG And this doesn't even begin to address my "internalization" vis-a-vis my gay-unfriendly parents! Out



*And BTW, what about Coming Out Day/Week everywhere else? Anybody participating?

[TaraWillFan]

We are!!!!!



Coming out week is.....erm.....soon?



Im in a Catholic college so there are plenty of people who dont like gays, but there are plenty who do, so, yay! We had our first meeting last week but Im not sure when exactly coming out week is. I know it's soon. I can't wait, it sounds like FUN!



I guess I have mixed ways of dealing with the gay-unfriendly people. Mostly I just roll my eyes and huff and look the other way. But sometimes it really makes me mad. Really, if we're not hurting anyone by being gay, why is it so WRONG?!?

Edited by: TaraWillFan at: 9/24/04 2:40 pm

[skittles]

I teach in a well-known conservative town. Well-known as in "oh, wow, their reputation is REALLY conservative!!" There are pockets of tolerance here, but the reputation is huge & that "noise" drowns out what the rest of the town is doing to counter the conservatives & their "victims"...



A little over a year ago, I was in the junior high teacher's lounge & one of the teachers who also teaches at the high school was kvetching about one of the HS students he had to take to a non-athletic competition event with some other students. Why was he complaining?? He said/implied that the student (male) was gay. I listened, but didn't join the conversation. When they were done talking, I commented to the school counselor who was sitting at the table with me that I didn't know that the student was gay. I said that "my gaydar doesn't work very well". She looked at me with no comprehension of what I had said. "what?" I repeated that my "gaydar doesn't work.... you know, gay-radar... I cannot tell if someone is gay or not, never have been able to tell." She didn't know the word and she is a school counselor at the junior high level, but still.....



A couple of weeks after this, I saw the student at the high school. I have a good talking relationship with him, so I told him I needed to talk with him & we stepped to the side of the hallway where it was a bit quieter. I told him that I heard another teacher "out" him... that I didn't know if it was true or not, but I thought that he needed to know that. I didn't tell him the circumstances or teacher... that wasn't important. He laughed & said that he was out. "I didn't know. I can't tell." was my reply.



I did find out that he no longer lives at home, but lives with friends in a nearby town. He was leaving for college the next fall & I told him that I was glad for him. We talked a little more then we went our separate ways.



Personal Note: I'm (mostly) straight, and I don't wave a rainbow flag, but my students know that I'm tolerant in my views & will not stand for teasing or put-downs or bullying. My gaydar is still not reliable, but I have students who trust me & will talk with me about general stuff. And that's the most important of all.... they know that they have someone that they can trust. At least I hope they know that.

skittles

Prepare the child for the path, not the path for the child.

When life hands you lemons, ask for a bottle of tequila and some salt

[Gatito Grande]

Tolerant? skittles has to listen to me make Rrrrrow! noises at Renee O' Connor's cleavage a half-dozen times a night when we watch Xena.



GG I'd say that's more than tolerant! Out

[fakhra]

Hey Gatito,



Unfortunately, I am not rich enough to make my way out of here. Atleast not yet. I am open to talk about anything with women around me, that feels good. And I do. There has been occasional exchange of 'forbidden glances' but alas. It doesn't last. But these moments are worth enjoying, perhaps because we know they wouldn't last?



The person I love is not here, I miss her. But I wouldn't indulge in gay talk in public even when she's around, it's not about being yourself, it's about playing safe and smart. You have to think of it this way, the society is majority, by banging drums to demand rights is just like inviting the crowd to watch circus.



Relationships are precious. Internalization helps in nurturing them. Relationships are about trust and care (I won't say love because love evolves from trust and care). I am a strong believer in the idea the less I talk about my feelings for someone the better for my inner security. Call it shyness, but I am comfortable that way. And when the moment comes to express your feelings, you would be very sure of yourself. I wish you good luck. I hope you find someone worthy



I am a teacher too skittles. I haven't noticed any such cases here yet. Speaking of gaydar, I am a bad one too. In fact, in the past it used to amaze me to see people saying, 'he's gay, he looks like one too'. I never understood. Once, there was an article on establishing a gay school in New York on some website. It made me uncomfortable, for some reason, and I wrote to them and requested them not to do that. I understand the reason for my reaction now. I was trying to defend my own identity.



I like this chat board. You guys are great



PS: Hey Gatito, thanks for quoting me

Edited by: fakhra at: 9/29/04 8:47 am

[robotguru]

I'm currently living in a halls of residence. If it were that by itself, i would com e out there, but the fact is that my course is a Primary Education course. Of course, gay guys get nasty stereotypes involving little boys, this pretty much means that i have to keep who i am a secret for four years and then from any colleagues i work with.



This quite frankly sucks, but i have to deal with it and hope that there is a time when we are more accepted.



As for chatrooms, i just bring up an ego defence Freud came up with...about the only thing he is good for. I can't remember the name of the defence, but when someone feels ashamed at impulses (like a love for the same sex), they promote an outward view of themselves as hating people who follow that impulse. I never really let it bother me though, in the chatroom in question, there are plenty that accept me for who i am. Watching Jayson go at it with some of the others though...that is amusing.

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There can be no rainbow without rain, you cannot know true happiness until you know sadness first.

[funkyasian]

Quote:

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There has been occasional exchange of 'forbidden glances' but alas. It doesn't last. But these moments are worth enjoying, perhaps because we know they wouldn't last?

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but why is unrequited love something that you want to settle for? while i understand living in the society you do it's difficult to stand up and wave your rainbow flag and tell everyone who's uncomfortable with who you are to just shove it...isn't it...healthier for you in the emotional and psychological sense to not want to hide? or is it that you're resigned to a fate of never being able to publically be with someone you love?

Quote:

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You have to think of it this way, the society is majority, by banging drums to demand rights is just like inviting the crowd to watch circus

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and somewhere in that crowd may be one person who agrees with you...or maybe two people...or many people. But how would you ever know if you hide?



Maybe i'm...spoiled. living and working in nyc, gay people no longer raise eyebrows...well, unless they're *bleep* in public...

However, i still think that unless someone speaks out...about rights or anything else, there's no other way to improve.



a hundred years ago, women sufferage was completely unheard of...now, to revoke the right of any citizen to vote is unthought of. 200 years ago, black people were considered property...now, that notion is atrocious to anyone. If everyone "played it safe and smart" there would never be any progress to society.



Maybe then the real questions is why are you willing to be opressed? to be slighted, to partcipate and perpetuate the prejudice by your inactivity. we're not asking for much are we? to be able to walk down the street like any straight couple and not fear retaliation, to be able to ask the one you care for to be your spouse, to file joint tax returns, to have/adopt children without being seen as "unfit" because of our sexual orientation. view points can change, and will change. why then are we all not precitating the change, rather waiting for someone else to do it? you don't have to go out and march, or flaunt yourself to the nearest homophob. part of being yourself means to be comfortable in your skin...if you're unwilling to show the world that skin, how can you be comfortable in it?



i've realized that as long as i'm comfortable with myself, and what i'm doing, other's become more relaxed. but these are just my 2 cents...



ETA: - my gaydar has never worked. come to think of it, i may have also not gotten the handbook...and nobody taught me the secret handshake. Someone help me?!

Nothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. ~ Oscar Wilde

Edited by: funkyasian at: 9/29/04 6:29 am

[robotguru]

Women campaigning for sufferage one hundred years ago is different to the situation today.



You know what can happen if someone comes out in an area that isn't all too friendly towards gay people? I'll tell you something, i refuse to leave my house without a panic alarm on my keyring, i've been beat up before and i never want to be again. These women, in this example, may have been persecuted, but i doubt it would be to this extent.



I'm not trying to argue, but look at my situation, i posted it just up the thread, what would you do?

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There can be no rainbow without rain, you cannot know true happiness until you know sadness first.

[LunaMuses]

robotguru - I think the Frued bit you are speaking of is projection. Like instead of accepting or dealing with an issue, you push it off (or project? lol..) it onto someone else. Not 100% sure, but I think that's it....



As for my gaydar, I think it needs a trip to the shop for a tune-up.



I'm going to college at a pretty big uni (somewhere around 20,000 students enrolled), but I walk around and have no idea who's who, if you will. It's a pretty diverse place, and I think it's very fair to imagine openly gay people as a part of the community. Even though it's in the middle of a decent-sized city, we're still nestled smack in the middle of the Bible Belt (the Bible Belt buckle? heh..), and alot of the time I'm reminded of that.



Here's a good example--my Sociology professor is giving a lecture on sexuality, and comes to the topic of sexual orientation. He goes on to conclude that most experts agree that biology/genetics are the biggest factor determining sexual orientation, but that socialization and culture make a difference as well. Fair enough. Then he says (and I qoute), "like being a homosexual because of inadequate parenting." He actually used *the phrase* "inadequate parenting". After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I got really pissed off. As if the comment wasn't ignorant enough itself, he dissed my mom too! The ass. And this is a Sociology professor! You'd think that group of folk would be more tolerant than most. My mother parented me just fine, thank you. Anyways, the point I was making is even here (my large supposedly diverse uni), I got slap-shocked by the big ugly prejudice monster rearing its head.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics!" - Benjamin Disraeli

[tarawhipped]

LunaMuses, the story of your Sociology prof is so messed up. What a dick. When I went back to college, the first class I took was Soc., and we also discussed sexuality. One of the students was an adult man from the Middle East, who proclaimed homosexuals 'sick' and explained that in his country they were killed (and by his tone it was clear he had no problem with that). Now, I'd been out to family, friends and coworkers for years, but that intimidated the hell out of me about being out in school. Luckily, my prof. was great, and basically told the guy that we did not make value judgments against ANY groups, especially in a sociology class, and that he would not tolerate it. It's too bad your prof. isn't more enlightened.



I also empathize with your living in the Bible Belt (being a Southerner by birth). I've gotten spoiled living in Chicago, but my mother's family is all in S.C. & N.C. Every time I visit I'm reminded that since I don't wear dresses, have big hair, and wear makeup makes me the object of some very uncomfortable stares (at best). The last time I was there, my Michigan born and bred partner was with me, and although she grew up in an extremely conservative Christian community, she said she never felt so much in physical danger as she did there. Which, again, is why we live in Chicago.



So I guess my point is that there are stupid people everywhere, but also ones that will surprise you. And then there's the fabulous Kitten Board where we can all be ourselves!

-Cameron

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What should I be but just what I am? - Edna St.Vincent Millay

[funkyasian]

hmm...let me try to respond as calmly as i can without climbing too high on my soapbox...



robotguru - i understand your situation, and i've seen firsthand what a gay male teacher can go through...but i've also seen firsthand one man changing the minds of his students' parents about a gay male teacher instructing their 10 year olds. To me, preceptions can be changed. The world was thought as flat centuries ago...that was the general consensus, that was the perception. Asians were seen as the slanted eye funny characters on television who can't speak english correctly in the 60's (for example, please see breakfast at tiffany's...holly golightly's neighbor)...that's been long changed. perceptions change...not without a fight, but they change... I'm not saying it'll be an easy battle...nothing's ever easy...Do you want to live the rest of your life holding that panic button...or do you want to one day walk out of your house without fear? feel free to hold the panic button...but i want to not have to look over my shoulder at who's going to kick my ass. you'll never be rid of this fear if the society doesn't change. and society doesn't change without some hard fought battles and some insistent voices.



you know what, you're probably right, women sufferage probably didn't go through as violent of a time as gay people have today...but what about the blacks? How many people do you think were lynched because...well, just because someone felt like it? they were nobodys in the society...just like i feel like we're nothing in today's society. nothing happens without a fight...while there's still prejudice around (no society is perfect), there is marked improvement. and how did the improvement come around? because people fought back. blacks were no longer going to hide or be put aside. one person stood up and fought back...then another...and another until there was a voice and a movement nobody can ignore. why can't we learn from that? a collective voice is louder than any individual...



please don't get me wrong, i'm the least of all activists...but i fail to understand why there's only one day a year when i'm allowed to be out...i don't want to be out only in a colorful parade...this is me...i'm an out, gay, asian, agnostic, woman. if you want to talk about minorities and prejudices, trust me, i fall into every minority category there is...i get it from all sides, but i also give it back. i'm also a fairly successful, professional, property owner who is a vital part (as anyone else) of the consumer world. this society can't only want my money and not give me something in return...



what i want is the same as anyone else...i want the same rights heterosexual take for granted. even if you don't want to marry or adopt kids...i believe you should have the option of deciding for yourself.



Damn, if billybob and tammyMae can shack up in a run down trailer home in the middle of the backhills of west virginia (no disrespect to anyone living in that state), and reproduce like rabbits, AND foster children for the monthly government check (that I am contributing to from MY hard earned salary), I should be afforded at least the same freaking set of rights...that I'm paying for!!!



For anyone in other countries, I understand your plight...cause after all, you may not live in a land that's touted as the "land of the free" (please read fine print of the word free...another subject another time) - however, understand that no change will come about if nobody says there should be change. status quo is not acceptable...it never was, and it never will be.



*slowly climbs off the soapbox*

Nothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul. ~ Oscar Wilde

Edited by: funkyasian at: 9/30/04 7:41 am

[robotguru]

I know what you mean Funky, i hate the fact that i must go out with a blue bar that shrieks at over 20 decibels on my keyring and i hate the fact that it is necesary, i don't want it, but i need it. It's in my pocket and while my hand isn't always on it, it is often near it. One day, i may learn to live without it, that day is not a day i see right now though, it took me long enough to start walking out in the dark again. Not here though, both where i live and where i'm living on campus are not nice places to be for anyone different.



As for the blacks, i've just spent the day in a school that is predominantly Asian (I was in two classes and there was only one white kid) because of uni. Those kids are some of the sweetest boys and girls i've ever met, but the thing is, i know what they will have to go through. I have black friends and it absolutley sucks that they get this shit and there's not a whole lot i can do, or they will let me do, about it.



Stereotypes will always be there, if i were to out myself in a school in England right now, guess who would be on the dole the following week. Maybe in four years, it mwill be different, maybe not. I can only deal with the cards that i have been given.



As i said, i'm not trying to argue, i aint looking for pity, i'm just stating the facts as i see them. If we were to stand together, this would probably be different, no, it would be. The fact is, i don't see anyone else standing, perhaps it takes one to be the first, maybe one day that will be me, right now, i just want to get through uni, my parents have paid a helluva lot of money to get me here and i can't ignore that.



EDIT: Some of this post sounds a bit patronizing towards black people, i never meant it like that. Why not just edit it out? Well if it's been seen already, that would make it look worse, also, that's not the kinda guy i am. I am sorry that some white people are shitheads enough to deal out that shit, but that's life. You give them whatever they deserve back.

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There can be no rainbow without rain, you cannot know true happiness until you know sadness first.

Edited by: robotguru at: 9/30/04 11:18 am

[LunaMuses]

tarawhipped - it's funny, you pegged my location on the dot without me even saying (Charlotte metro, since you're a Carolina-familiar kitten ). I look forward to moving away from here, somewhere in a city where I can feel comfortable with myself *and* never drive a car again!



the stupid part about my Socy. professor was, up until that point, he had seemed to me like a fairly tolerant fellow. I mean, I could tell he was the typical working-class WASP-esque type folk you see around here, but it really did seem like he set those things aside professionally. He's yet to make any other jawdropping comments (that I've caught. Can't say I devote my complete attention to him anymore). It's easier for him to 'get away' with these kinds of comments, because the class is huge, which 1) makes it harder for your voice to be heard (literally); and 2) makes it alot more indimidating for somewhat shy types (like myself). Had it been a smaller class, I may have challeneged the statement.



But, he did walk into class today and say "I don't feel good. I'll put the notes on the class website. Seeya Monday!", so he's earned a couple brownie points back Oh well. I'm glad you live in Chicago, seems like a nice place! ^^

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics!" - Benjamin Disraeli

[notl33t]

Gotta say, even in Boston, there are some Gay-Unfriendly pockets. I've been yelled at, et cetera, because I'm physically friendly with all of my friends and I'm, well, androgynous. I thought it was hilarious that I got called a faggot once, because, I'm, well, not a faggot (love the women!). It's pretty rare for me to get hassled, but people tend to pick on my gay friends.

I haven't really ever handled it. I just try to stay in groups when I go into specifically Gay-Unfriendly areas even though I don't get hassled most of the time. For Bostonians: all areas with any gang activities are bad for you, for some reason people who carry guns around and do illegal activities think that the gays are horrible people. Most places are fine in general.

[billy]

I've been living in Glasgow for quite a few years now and probably because I look reasonably straight I don't have many problems when I'm on my own, but it's different when I'm with a boyfriend or friends. Most of the time it's only the usual sniggering from kids, stares and some name calling, but a couple of years ago I was pretty badly hurt.

On the up side quite a few people, gay and straight, have come up to us and started a conversation because we're gay, a far cry from the town I grew up in which was completely( ) straight.