The Lord of the Rings

[Warduke]

This is the thread for discussing one of the greatest masterpieces of all time…The Lord of the Rings.



Both the book and the movies can be discussed here.



What can you say about this story. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote one of history’s most remarkable works of fiction. Not only did he write interesting characters, thrilling fight scenes and an incredible quest, but he also brought to life one of the most amazing universes ever.



For those who have read the book but not seen the movies, I would highly recommend that you watch them, even though many things are changed, the basic outline is the same and the sheer magnitude of these movies is stunning.



And for those who’ve seen the movies but not read the book yet, please do. As amazing as the movies are, the book is even better. There are so many little details in the book that are not in the movie, it is well worth it.



When I first got into LOTR, I searched the net for all sites about it, but this is one of the best I found, it’s called The Encyclopedia of Arda, and it has so much information, it’s mind numbing. If you consider yourself a fan of LOTR, this site is so comprehensive you really need to check it out. I’m positive you’ll learn many things you didn’t know before about LOTR.



So, let’s get to it.



Talk about the book, the movies…The Fellowship of the Ring DVDs (regular and extended edition) the upcoming DVD for The Two Towers and of course, the upcoming final film in the trilogy, The Return of the King.

---

Mozilla : One Browser to Rule Them All.

[La]

I love commentaries, and I watched the commentary track on the extended version that had most of the cast on it. There were a lot of people commenting, but unlike other movie commentaries where everyone speaks over everyone else and you get long periods with no talking, this commentary included names of the actors speaking shown on the screen, and the commentary was really interesting to hear. I'm looking forward to listening to the commentary track for the two towers.



I read the books for the first time last year. I read all three of them all in a row. Before that, I'd only read the Hobbit maybe 8 years earlier. I loved them and was so excited that they were making movies of them. I totally agree that the movies have done a great job of picking out the important parts of the books. Yes, stuff has been changed slightly, but sometimes it's necessary, otherwise there would be 10 movies instead of just 3!

~La



What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?

The drunk will drive through a stop sign while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.

[Guinevere]

I would have been so happy if there had been 10 movies, or 5 insanely long ones. I love how they've done the first two!



Gwen

[justin]

These films are brilliant. Even though they change a lot they really do capture the spirit of the books.



Plus they leave out Tom Babadill (sp?)



I'd reccomend reading the Silmarilion. It can be a bit slow in places but it does give a lot of the back story to the Lord Of The Rings. Like how the orcs were created and why Sauron is so evil.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[Rob Ty Ut]

^I am glad they left out Tom to. I liked him, but he didn't do anything to the storyline.



I also enjoyed the Silmarilion. Though in parts if felt like I was reading the Old Testiment of the bible!



I love the DVDs. Well the extended editions. I have watched it so many times I think I warn out the DVD player.



Just a question, somebody told me there were a few 'easter eggs' hidden in the DVD of LOTR: FOTR, including Sarah Michelle Geller and Jack Black's send up of the Council of Elrond scene from the MTV movie awards. Is this true and if so, how does one access it?

[J uk]

The instructions for the easter eggs are here:

www.dvdeastereggs.com/sho...grabEggs=l



The MTV one doesn't work on my region 2 dvd.

[sam7777]

Yeah the extended DVD set is a great deal. I've gotten 20 hours of entertainment and haven't done all the audio tracks yet. I am a huge fan of the books but I think that Peter Jackson has done a fantastic job with the movies. I've always dreamed of seeing the Ent attack on the big screen and that was my Two Towers highlight. I can't wait for the Two Towers extended edition and for Return of the King. I'm really looking forward to seeing the witch king.



Peter Jackson obviously has a great love and respect for the material and he's not even the creator. I can't wait to see what he does next.



ETA: Yeah I need to read the Similarion too. I was too young and ADD to finish it the first time.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 4/17/03 1:51:38 pm

[WebWarlock]

OMG.



This is not only my favorite book of all time (and I generally like horror) but my favorite movie as well.



Brian thanks for this thread and for that link!



I remember hearing a quote once that if you took all the Trek, Tolkien and porn sites off of the net you would have gotten rid about 75% of the internet's content.



I can remember long debates on Bitnet on whether or not dwarven women had beards! And then Peter Jackson resolves it is a throw away line! Of course they do. That is what is proper for a dwarf woman.



I read these books for the first time about 20 years ago. I loved them then and they only get better with multiple readings. The same can be said for the movies as well.



I do need to re-read the Similarion. I was too young the first time. I have not checked out any of Chrisotpher Tolkien's works, but I was surprised to hear that he had actually helped his dad write quite a bit of LotR. So maybe I have not given him a fair chance.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"If this is all the gods can do, I'm over to the Darkside so fast." - Tom Servo Mystery Science Theater 3000, Episode 903 "Pumaman".

[pacou]

Hehe lol



...You know, we can discuss the Lord of the rings and there have been so much who like the Lord of the rings so far... so I just have to go for the "I just don't like it" side



Probably it is one of the best books ever and great stuff and so forth lol but I just don't like the story behind it...



Well, probably I'm too dumb lol cos I think the names of the characters are way too confusing and stuff..mostly it's the names why I don't like it... hard to remember



Well and fantsay isn't really my thing anyway lol but I think if I go on now, I won't be able to stand up against all you fans there anyway, so I'll shut up now



I know my argumentation isn't worth anything...



I still don't like it



-Viv-

Medicine, law, banking – these are necessary to sustain life. But poetry, romance. love, beauty? These are what we stay alive for!

[darkmagicwillow]

I love LotR; I read it every few years and I've read The Silmarillion a few times as well; it's a great book too if you're really into the world of Middle Earth. I liked that the movies eliminated much of the early part of Fellowship where Tolkien was still writing a Hobbit-like story, though I'm not nearly as happy with the TTT, especially the pointless new scenes with Frodo towards the end. I'm still looking forward to Return of the King, my favorite part of the book (it really is one book published in three volumes because of length.)



pacou, it's curious that you found the names difficult to recall. I found them very easy because they were all unique. If I meet someone with a common name like John or Michelle, it's gone within seconds as that reference is already used for someone else. Unique names are effortless to recall though.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[TemperedCynic]

Tolkien's LoTR, the best fantasy book ever published (the professor understood the need to split the copy into three books, but didn't like the "trilogy" idea). I've read LoTR every year for over 25 years, now. But I'm a mere rookie compared to Christopher Lee. He's been reading them every year since they were published in the 1950's. The story shows the progress of human life - young and innocent at the beginning, struggle & strife in the middle and a weary sadness of death and hate at the end.



The movies. Amazing that they were made at all. We are fortunate that New Line Cinema saw something in a Kiwi (New Zealand native) film director and fronted him $300 American dollars. If the first film had been less than the blockbuster it became, New Line would have declared bankruptcy and the remaining footage might never have been seen. LoTR will revolutionize film for the next twenty years, just like Star Wars before it. Respecting the viewing audience has become trendy in Hollywood – it has produced The Matrix movies and the Daredevil/X-Men/Spiderman/The Hulk movie franchise. A great time to be a fan!

---

More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. Woody Allen (1935 - )

[Firefoot]

I only just discovered this story last year. I saw the first movie and was frustrated by my lack of backstory--about 60% of the plot went right over my head. I received the books as a birthday present and spent last summer reading them. What an amazing journey! There were times I was so lost in the story that I would forget I was even on the train. When I finished, I immediately went out and got The Hobbit because I wasn't yet ready to leave Middle Earth.



To anyone who hasn't read these books, give them a try. Start with The Hobbit, and if you like that, you'll probably love Rings, which is bigger, more complex, has more layers, and is generally a more "adult" story than Hobbit, which feels very much like a story meant to be read to children.



I won't elaborate too much here about the story and the characters, partly because of the time it would take and partly because I wouldn't want to spoil too much for those who haven't yet read the books. Suffice to say that the story is just amazing, endlessly imaginative. The action takes place against a fully-realized backdrop, with its own history, languages, geography, and cultures. The books quite literally take the reader to another world that is at once new and exciting but also familiar. The characters are simply terrific, each with his or her own backstory. And all of these details, large and small, weave in and out of each other so seamlessly that it seems absolutely effortless. The story is funny, tragic, heroic, exciting, and breathtaking in its beauty. Having read and re-read the trilogy several times now, it never ceases to amaze me how amazingly beautiful English prose can be. There's no superlatives too strong to describe this epic: it's a masterpiece in every way.



The movies are pretty good, but to my mind, they only convey a small part of what makes the books so special. I also have quibbles about some of the liberties Peter Jackson took with the source material--granted, he can't do a scene-for-scene adaptation, but instead of simply trimming material, he adds things in that were never really there to begin with, and IMO the end result feels a lot like reading fanfic--a fan's interpretation of the original. I disliked the elevating of Arwen (in the books a very minor character; she's not even present in Two Towers); I disliked the "new material" in the second movie (IMO it added an unnecessary half hour to a movie long enough to begin with); I disliked the way some of the characters were re-written so that their actions and motivations became very different (e.g., Faramir dragging Sam and Frodo to Osgiliath, which he never did in the books; Merry and Pippin outwitting Treebeard, one of the oldest creatures in Middle Earth; Gimli becomes the butt of some pretty idiotic "short" jokes). I also disliked Jackson's habit of long, slow, extreme close-up shots of the actors' faces (some of which verged on sinus exams), which in places slowed the action down to a crawl. But Jackson also did some things very nicely--the Frodo-Gollum-Sam scenes were simply terrific, highlighting nicely the contrast between Frodo's pity for Gollum and Sam's distrust of him. The roles were all very well cast, and the actors did excellent jobs with their characters (Aragorn and Legolas are particularly well-realized). And of course, the visuals are magnificent.



Also: if you plan to get DVD copies, splurge on the extended versions--some material that was cut from the cinema release is restored, and the movies (well, Fellowship anyway) play out much better as a result.



Firefoot

-----

"The holy passion of friendship is of so sweet and steady and loyal and enduring a nature that it will last for a whole lifetime, if not asked to lend money."

--Mark Twain

Edited by: Firefoot at: 4/18/03 8:44:52 am

[darkmagicwillow]

---

I disliked the elevating of Arwen (in the books a very minor character; she's not even present in Two Towers);

---

I liked replacing Glorfindel with Arwen a lot; the movie needed a female heroine and didn't need a random elflord who never does anything for the rest of the books. I liked the scenes with her in the TTT too, and I think they're important for the viewer not to forget her by the third movie. I would've liked seeing Arwen or Aragorn acknowledging that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother; I like the characters and it would've been a nice emphasis of elven immortality.

---

Faramir dragging Sam and Frodo to Osgiliath, which he never did in the books

---

I agree with you that this scene didn't add anything and was bad character development, both for Faramir for his evil in taking the ringbearer and for Frodo in his weakness in offering the ring to the nazgul which he never did in the book.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[themagicpixie]

I don't often like the alterations filmmakers make to books, but in the case of Arwen, I don't think it was such a bad idea to increase her role. Doing so may have altered the narrative of the novel, but I don't think it harmed its spirit...

[urnofosiris]

Well I first read the Hobbit and LoTR in high school for my English book list and I loved it. I've read the Silmarillion as well. I need to reread it though because I only read it once and I have forgotten almost everything. I've reread LoTR about 4 times and the last time was about 4 or 5 years ago and it is amazing how much I had forgotten despite the fact that I had read the book several times. I only woke up to that fact when I saw Two Towers and the scene where Faramir takes Sam and Frodo to Osgiliath. I deeply dislike that change because it makes no sense to change the book. It is an insult to his character. I quickly reread the fellowship of the ring and now I know how much has been changed, too much.



I dislike most of the changes, really dislike them, most are so unnecessary. One of the changes I do like and understand is the bigger part Arwen plays and clearly showing her relationship with Aragorn. One of the few things that the books lack are strong female characters, Arwen, Galadriel and Eowyn are the only ones, and they only play minor parts, though they are strong characters.



Despite my dislike for the many changes there are enough reasons left to love these movies. The visual effects and the details are stunning, the casting is superb. I have bought the extended DVD version of the Fellowship and the added 20 minutes definitely improves the movie for me. As is the case with watching movies I love from books I love, I need to watch them or read them with several years in between so they don't interfere with each other in my mind.

I can enjoy both better when I am not comparing them, but that isn't easy to do. I've stopped rereading LoTR now. I'll wait a few years, in the meantime I look forward to the DVD of Two Towers, I hope there will be many added scenes.

Quote:

---

I would've liked seeing Arwen or Aragorn acknowledging that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother; I like the characters and it would've been a nice emphasis of elven immortality.

---

In the extended version there is a brief scene between Galadriel and Aragorn where she talks about Arwen. It still won't be clear to anyone who hasn't read the book that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother, but it does make it clear that Galadriel cares deeply about Arwen.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[kukalaka]

I've read the book once and enjoyed it very much. I positively devoured the Silmarillion, and that just makes the book so much better yet. Ideally, you should probably read the Silmarillion up to the ring wars, stop there, read the Hobbit and LOTR and then finish it. Because it's really the vast amount of background that makes the book so great. The main part of story of LOTR makes up about 20 pages of the Silmarillion, if I remember correctly. That's what I call an epic



What I love most about the book though, is the end. I don't want to spoil anyone, but if the movies make it a totally cheesy, everything's so great end, I'll be very disappointed. *keeps her fingers crossed*





Yes, the movies are great. And the extra scenes for the first one make it even better. The landscape, the cast(!), the SFX, and I do like the close-up shots. And Gollum, wow.



But there really are some things that disturb me:



You have this huge book to make a movie of, it's a must to leave some stuff out and yet you decide to invent new stuff? That just doesn't make any sense.



I'm not talking about the Arwen storyline. It's not even really made up, it just isn't really an important part of the book, but it's part of the Silmarillion. And one more female character definitely doesn't hurt.



I'm talking about the pointless Aragorn "aw, he's dead, no, wait, he isn't. And he barely managed to get on that horse and now he's storming into Helm's Deep like that?" storyline. (Though that last scene sure looks awesome ) But it's just not necessary to invent new storylines for the movies.



Also, there are some parts that really change the story, and I really hate those. Faramir is aweful. And the elves at Helm's Deep? *sigh* The whole book is about the end of the third age, the Elves leaving and the humans taking over. To have them decide the outcome of that battle is... wrong. (Although, that too, looks very cool )



So, great movies, but some things really drive me nuts.



And I've been looking forward to the inevitable marathon this December for 2 years now



I was at a very big convention in May 2001, and before the opening ceremonies - without any announcement - they showed all current trailers to LOTR (some 15 minutes, they weren't being shown at German cinemas yet) and it was a matter of seconds for that big room (~3,000 people) to become completely silent. It was amazing

---

To look life in the face, always to look life in the face, and to know it for what it is, to love it for what it is.

[Kalita]

I'll probably post some commentary on the books and the films' storyline at some point, but right now here's another vouch for the extended DVD.



The extended cut is itself worth the purchase price - the story gets that extra meat and polish that really helps bring it across. Plus, many of the scenes are wonderful book references that had to be left out of the theatrical cut.



The audio commentaries are a revelation - you really get to meet all these people who worked so very hard both in front of and behind the cameras. The commentary by the cast is the most fun, most especially the sheer chaos brought in by Billy Boyd and Dom Monaghan; those two are the definition of insufferable.



Then there's 2 more discs! A wonderfully made biography of Tolkien (including Rayner Unwin, Tom Shippey, and other experts); an excellent history of the films and how they made it to the screen; great insights into the artists, especially Alan Lee and John Howe; a boisterous look at the cast and their lives during shooting; a whirlwind tour of the New Zealand landscapes used in filming; and wonderfully relevatory looks at the effects and the methods used (the many techniques used in the scale issue alone are incredible). Also, don't miss the origin of the Nazgul Scream; you'll never guess where they found it!



This all said, there's still TWO MORE of these to come! I simply cannot wait for November to arrive so I can see Two Towers in its extended glory, and Return of the King should rock the house in December. This is, indeed, a Good Time to be a fan.

"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?"

- Marilyn Pittman

[Katharyn]

I have a great deal of respect for LOTR (the books) and the influence they have had on fantasy writing that has followed. But I have to say that I am not attached to the books. Its just me, I react badly to Tolkiens style of writing, even though the story is wonderful I cannot get around "how" he writes. I find that with a number of writers. If I do not like the "how" then I have problems getting to the "what." I had to struggle through the early parts of the books each time I read them.



All of which means I am a huge fan of the films.



With the exception of Faramirs portrayal I have no problem with any changes that Peter Jackson has made. The reasons for what he did, Tom Bombadil for example, are clearly revealed in the commentary tracks. How many times they had to ask "what does this do for the ring story?" and "how can we make this accessible to people who never read the book?" I would dread to think.



He couldn't expect people to read a thousand pages of text before going to the film and, though I would have liked to see some stuff carried over, I respect the instincts he had shown as a filmmaker rather than as a converter of the text. And the greater unrgency in FOTR was a definite requirement. Waiting years for Gandalf... well it adds to the scope of the timeframe, but it would have done nothing for a film in front of audiences who had not read it.



I wish I could enjoy the books more than I do but the films admirably plug that gap for me and easily breeze into my top ten.



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




------------------------

[Still Waters Run Deep]

Having read LoTR every other year for the last 30 years I have to say I am well impressed by Peter Jackson's attempt to 'film the infilmable' [JRRT's own view]



BUT [there's always a but], a couple of things grated in TTT:



Placing Frodo and Sam in Osgiliath. Pointless. it did'nt extend the narrative at all.



Faramir dead or not? again, pointless. If they wanted some tension, there was plenty to be had at Helm's Deep.



And lastly, which I'm surprised no-one here has picked up on, the demotion of Eowyn to the recesses, when in fact she donned armour and fought at the battle, there was a story there too.



This p***** me off royally, and for the life of me I don't know why they did it.



Oh well

-----------------------------------

love and kisses

Still Waters



..... *Happy to be Willowhand....well, would'nt you be?......

[kukalaka]

I sure hope we'll get to see Eowyn in the last battle. The way the book describes it!

---

To look life in the face, always to look life in the face, and to know it for what it is, to love it for what it is.

[tyche]

Minor spoilers for the film of 'The Return of the King' below:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

Regarding Eowyn fighting and such, I read an interview with Miranda Otto where she said that Eowyn would be fighting in the third film (disguised as a man.) Not having read the books, I didn't realise that she fought at Helm's Deep - it's a shame they didn't include it as they didn't really focus on the female characters in the second film. I appreciate that they can't include everything, but even so..

Oh yeah, and I have a thing for Aragorn. Which is especially strange considering that I saw Viggo Mortensen in lots of other films and never really though he was that sexy .. but give him long hair and a beard, put him in armour and *drool*.

[Caoilin]

I could be wrong, but my recollection was that Eowyn did not fight at Helm's Deep. In the book, there were no women or children at Helm's Deep at all - it was one of the changes that Jackson made that I really disagreed with. If, in his version, they were so desperate that they put boys in armor to fight, what happened to "the women of this country learnt long ago that even those who did not live by the sword could die by it"?



I realize that Tolkien's books weren't too huge with the female empowerment (too few females to empower, I guess). But here was a chance for Jackson to make a positive change, IMO.

[Still Waters Run Deep]

Quote:

---

my recollection was that Eowyn did not fight at Helm's Deep

---

Caoilin, my bad. I think you are right. I went back and re-read the relevant bits and could'nt find a reference. So I must have got the scenes mixed up. I now can take back one of my 3 gripes about TTT and give the benefit of the doubt to Peter Jackson. Doh.

-----------------------------------

love and kisses

Still Waters



..... *Happy to be Willowhand....well, would'nt you be?......

[kukalaka]

Ah, the spoilers don't sound bad, which is to say they sound bookish

---

To look life in the face, always to look life in the face, and to know it for what it is, to love it for what it is.

[Caoilin]

Quote:

---

I now can take back one of my 3 gripes

---

Heh, I agree about your other two, SWRD. Although, it's been pointed out to me that extending Faromir's redemption was more sensible than "Oh, you have the ring? Well, off you go, then."



But the "is Aragorn dead" thing was definitely too much.



Jeez, by listening to me, you'd think I didn't like this movie. But really, I LOVED it. As pointed out earlier, none of the changes that were made affected the spirit of the story, I think.

[dulcinea]

I always kinda enjoyed the books, but I think since I saw the films, I've got a new respect for the story. Peter Jackson really has done a great job. So far, my only minor dislike was Faramir's character. I'd always quite liked him in the book, but didn't really like the way that part of the story was handled on film. But, other than that I loved The Two Towers. Having lived about five minutes drive from the place where much of the Helms Deep fight scenes were filmed, I was really impressed with the way that it turned out in the film - strange after having driven past a set that, although it looked pretty impressive on the hill, looked amazing when it was all put together. I can't wait till it comes out on DVD.



A couple of months ago, I had the chance to travel back down to Wellington and visit the Lord of the Rings exhibition at Te Papa. It was amazing!! All the costumes, armor, minitures, the "one ring" used in the movie...the detail and care that must have been put into all the props was just amazing. They had the life size model of the dead Boromir in the boat - it looked so real, it was creepy - detailed right down to the veins in its hands. Saurons armor , the towers, all the elven rings, jewelry - I was really impressed



I think the exhibition has finished in New Zealand now, and is moving on to London, Boston, Singapore and Australia. If you have the chance, even if you aren't a big fan of LOTR, I would definitely recommend trying to go and see it.

---

subtle salvation in poems we know, hiding our heads in a shadow of home,
now i wasn't looking for wreaths or for bells,
just someone to listen to stories i tell
."
stories I tell - Toad the Wet Sprocket

[Grimaldi]

i liked the book when i first read it back in highschool, but it never was one of my favorites. when i saw fellowship of the ring, it made me want to read the book again, i enjoyed the two towers and am looking forward to getting the dvd. does anyone know if they are going to release it like fellowship was: a version with a few extras and then a few months later a special edition version?

I'm not stealing, I'm just taking things without paying for them. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?

[Warduke]

According to AICN...

Quote:

---

Release date for the Theatrical Edition will be August 26th, and the Extended Edition will be November 18th.

---

And I also read that the Extended Edition will have over 40 additional minutes

---

Mozilla : One Browser to Rule Them All.

[sam7777]

Thanks warduke! I can't wait for the extended edition. I thought the extended edition of Fellowship really enhanced my enjoyment of the story. I heard that Peter Jackson had to cut more than he wanted to for the Two Towers. I'm looking forward to seeing the extra scenes. I think it will flow better as the extended Fellowship did. The best thing about DVD's is the extras you get and LOTR certainly doesn't skimp on those.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[JulesP600]

I love LOTR and I have to agree that the films have also given me a new respect for the stories.



It is great though, while I read the books I pictured the characters (as you do!) and I was amazed that they looked the same in the films! Tolkien certainly portrayed people so well that they just "had" to look like that!

The only way to have a friend is to be one