Carnivale on HBO

[xita]

It's a new show but I am very excited about it. Lots of things going on. It's not surprising that I don't trust that preacher, but maybe he's just doing what he thinks is best. He's certainly having visions. So of course is Ben. They seem to be having these weird visions of WWI, it looks. Though I don't think ben was there or the preacher. Who is that weird guy who seems to be stalking them there with the tree.



I love all the women in it, amy madigan, adrienne barbeau and clea duvall of course!



I think Ben's power has to be of the good, I mean sure it seems to drain the life of things 300 feet near him but anything that makes a girl like that walk is fine with me.

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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[maudmac]

I'm liking the show, too.



I can't make up my mind about who I think is good and who's bad. But I like that. I hope the show doesn't make it easy to figure out.



That's a good point about Ben's power. But...what if there had been other people around? Would it have drained them, too, instead of just killing the crops? It seemed to drain Ben, you know?



It was so sad to see that his mom thought his power was evil. Or that he was evil himself. So she didn't let him touch her as she was sick and dying. I can imagine that must have torn him up inside.



Very much looking forward to seeing more of this show.

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Walking in space we find the purpose of peace. The beauty of life you can no longer hide.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open. Our eyes are open, our eyes are open wide, wide, wide. -- Walking In Space

[xita]

Finally saw the second episode. I am so intrigued! So now we know ben is the son of a circus folk, it's weird her mom used to be comfortable with them but she totally freaked at his ability. Now is that guy, hack , his father? He was the geek in the circus, biting the heads off chickens! And who was that at war? A bear?



And that preacher guy, is he lusting after his sister? Is that why needs to flagellate? And that gross man who killed himself, that was not what I expected his tastes to be, that was gross. They seem to be making a point of not hiding their talents. Clearly our preacher guy has talents of his own, psychic, he can induce hallucinations, I am not sure but the guy has power as powerful as ben, and they have the same dreams. Very interesting.



And as my gf, who is not a big clea fan one way or the other had this to say, "she does look dykey." .

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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[maudmac]

It was interesting to see that Ben's power can do harm as well as good. I kind of expected that, since this show seems to have a real thing for characters who exist in that gray area between good and evil. I like that it's challenging the idea that individuals, or even single actions/events, must be one or the other.



It's sophisticated. No easy answers. No easy questions.

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I have often been adrift, but I have always stayed afloat.    --  David Berry,  The Whales of August

[BBOvenGuy]

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as my gf, who is not a big clea fan one way or the other had this to say, "she does look dykey."

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I was wondering if there was some kind of vibe going on between her character and the dancer last night. Glad to see it wasn't just me.

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[xita]

Ok, finally got to see it today. And Bob you were so right and I was expecting maybe a tiny little bit from what you said but that was heavy subtext there. I mean, I have to admit I wondered about the casting of Clea since she was supposed to be ben's girl from what things seemed like. Yet, now, I am not so sure where they are going with this. Ben seems to have an aversion to females anyway, except Adrienne Barbeau



That was awful though , what happened to that girl. I must say I am looking forward to their kind of revenge. I also must admit I missed our preacher guy.

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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[Warduke]

I saw this episode last night (had missed it earlier) and that was some heavy duty subtext there



I really hope we see a lot more of Clea and that dancer, they make a really cute couple



And I'm with xita, can't wait to see their revenge.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[maudmac]

Uh! That was terrible what they did to her. I hope the carnival justice is satisfying.



Very HoYay! there when they were dancing, yep. I almost don't want them to pursue that, because...well...we all know how that can go.



Listen, who was that guy Ben saw in the mine? The one he said he knew.



It's all so interesting. What's the deal with Babylon and it's Stepford Miner inhabitants?

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I have often been adrift, but I have always stayed afloat.    --  David Berry,  The Whales of August

[xita]

That guy I think is his father. Right? The soldier from the dream? Right??...





Editing to add comments for this week.



The subtext continues as our friends comfort each other... Next week they're in bed!!



Oh but Dora good god, I have not seen anything more horrible. She's stuck in there naked, like that with all those ghosts. My god, that's horrible. I just can't stand the thought. I would sure love it if someone got her out of there one day. Or else it'll be like Josie stuck in the piece of wood forever!!!



I love Samson. I loved his card that he put in her grave. I love his character. I just KNEW he came back to shoot that guy. I knew it. Too bad he couldn't do anything about Dora

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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

Edited by: xita  at: 10/21/03 8:37 pm

[maudmac]

Okay, so that guy, Scudder, he was with the carnival, is probably Ben's father, but Brother Justin had visions about him too, he was also a miner, probably killed those other miners, and he's the WWI soldier guy in the trenches? He sure got around.



God, yes, Dora Mae...stuck there...forever...with 500 miners...



I wonder if they're all going to end up back in Babylon at some point later. I really want them to get Dora Mae out of there, but only Samson understands that she's trapped there, right?



More HoYay! between Sofie and Libby. I fear Libby's gonna break Sofie's heart.



I want to know more about everyone and everything on this show. I'm sucked pretty far in.



I hadn't noticed before tonight that Wendy and Lisa are doing the music. Good for them. They're everywhere. Prince who?

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I have often been adrift, but I have always stayed afloat.    --  David Berry,  The Whales of August

[xita]

they are?? I hadn't noticed either, yay go wendy and lisa. I am glad they are still getting work!

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"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[SJ]

Wendy&Lisa are doing the music,fantastic news

Hope we get this tv show over here in the UK.

[Warduke]

I taped it last night (I saw it Sunday but wasn't really paying attention) and I have to say Dora's fate is one of the most disturbing I've ever seen. Not only being stuck there, but stuck with those 500 miners is indeed hell. I'm really hoping that in the near future, either Ben or the preacher is able to find a way to release her soul from that place.



Sampson was great, I also knew he'd go back to finish the job.



Nice to see Sofie and Libby together again and even closer in the preview for the next episode

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

Last week really was good again! I am starting to feel sympathy for brother Justin. I think he has dark power certainly but he hasn't missused it really. He killed a man in self defense. That is not evil in my book. The last 2 acts, he wasn't even aware he had a power.



Ben on the other hand gets on my nerves. He has a special power but when does he use it? He uses it to heal an arm that would heal on its own and not only that it's something he caused! Jerk!

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"Hard work pays off in the future but laziness pays off now!"

[Hemiola]

OK, somehting's starting to bother me.....



I am beginning to think that this series may go the way of "Twin Peaks": not because the same actor who plays Samson was also the famous "Dancing Dwarf" , but because I get the impression that they are starting to make what I call "The Great Lynch Error".



What, you may legitimately ask, was "The Great Lynch Error"?



"Twin Peaks" began to falter because David Lynch thought that he could maintain viewer interest simply by piling weirdness on top of weirdness, mystery on top of mystery and mysticism on top of mysticism. I like a good mystery as well as the next person, but at some point you want ANSWERS, and folks just got tired of waiting.



In the most recent episode, we had more weirdness/mystery introduced without any explanation: why do Samson and the rival freakshow manager possess the same "lodge emblem"? Has Samson lost favor with "management" (who apparently has a female voice!?). And are we ever going to get an explanation for the dreams/visions of two of the main characters???



Is anyone else as frustrated as I am?

[xita]

Oh no, I am enjoying it, but then I loved Twin Peaks. Even without all the answers. From what I understand we will get some answers by the end of the season. I read an interview with the guy who plays samson, Michael.. something I want to say but he called it Twin Peaks with logic. I just think we are seeing layers being uncovered, we did know that Lotz was management's contact till he somehow fell out of favor, now he's back in there. I don't think they're up to anything good.

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[maudmac]

I think I watched one or two eps of Twin Peaks just to see what all the fuss was about. I was deeply confused and I didn't watch anymore. I've also only seen one David Lynch film (as far as I know) and it has the distinction of being the only film I've ever seen that made me disoriented and gave me a headache. So I don't know anything about comparisons between Twin Peaks/Lynch and Carnivàle, other than what I've heard from some certain person above me and what I've read here and there. Seems a whole lot of Twin Peaks fans are very happy now to have a show that reminds them of what they loved about Twin Peaks, but I've also read a fair bit of criticism as well. So you're definitely not alone, Hemiola, even though I have no idea what you're talking about.



I am pretty much obsessed with Carnivàle now, especially since I've gone back and started rewatching the earlier eps. I love hearing/reading what other folks think about it.

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why do Samson and the rival freakshow manager possess the same "lodge emblem"?

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The one Samson has was actually Scudder's. How/why Samson has it, who knows yet? But in addition to it being a Masonic symbol (that would be his "lodge" - the Masons), there is also some very strong Knights Templar imagery in the vision (or whatever it is) that Ben had when he grabbbed Phineas' arm and took his ring. (I've taken to watching all dreams/visions frame by frame and that's been very helpful.) I'm really intrigued.

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Has Samson lost favor with "management" (who apparently has a female voice!?).

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You know, I thought Management sounded male. I listened to it several times and it seems to me that they deliberately made it somewhat ambiguous. Anyway, I got serious goosebumps when she/he/it spoke. I just sat there like and immediately rewound it and watched that bit again. Holy shit, Management spoke.



It's interesting that Management and Lodz are communicating again and Management basically kicked Samson out. Is Management evil? Is Lodz evil? If Management is evil, does that mean Samson is evil since Management was talking to him?

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And are we ever going to get an explanation for the dreams/visions of two of the main characters???

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No! Never!



I don't know. But I sure hope so. I'm liking the mystery of it and it's a large part of what keeps me watching, but I am going to be seriously pissed if they leave too much hanging at the end of this season. (I read somewhere that Daniel Knauf said he envisioned it taking three seasons to fully tell all the stories.)



The parallels between Ben and Justin's dreams/visions are fascinating to me. There is obviously a link of some kind between Ben and Justin. The obvious thing, I guess, would be that one is the Child of Light and the other is the Child of Darkness. I kinda have a feeling it's not going to turn out to be quite so cut and dry, though.

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Is anyone else as frustrated as I am?

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I'm definitely frustrated, but so far, for me, it's a good frustration. I'm delighted to have some TV to watch now that's not just candy. I really can't just sit back and watch a show like Carnivàle and then forget it all five minutes after it's over like a lot of what's on TV now. I have to watch, rewatch, think, question, wonder, analyze, theorize... I have to participate. And I'm loving that.

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So up on your feet. Up on your feet! Somewhere there’s music playing.
Don’t you worry none. We’ll just take it like it comes. One day at a time, one day at a time.
-- "One Day at a Time" - John and Nancy Barry

[xita]

Well the show certainly seems to be making the masons/knights templar connection an occult/evil one. I am all for that!

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[BBOvenGuy]

Well, well, well... after tonight's show, I do believe the subtext may rapidly be becoming text. Or at least Sofie's mother seems to think so.



One episode to go - does anyone think they'll really be able to explain everything???

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[xita]

Bob, I really don't think they can. I don't see how. But, it's going to be fun, it seems like momma don't like libby cause she knows what's coming. Seems like the sub was sub, now it's text. I am not sure why it was such a dark vision. I don't sense anything evil about either one of them.

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[BBOvenGuy]

Maybe the vision was dark because momma was making it look that way. It's supposed to be 1934, after all, not the most liberated of times, and momma seems to have hangups about sex in general.



The way I read Sofie is that she thinks she's "supposed to" like Jonesy, because they're friends and they have a history and he's a guy, but subconsciously she's drawn to Libby instead. There was that one early episode where she had sex with that diner guy, but that doesn't seem to have meant very much to her. And it was right after that episode that her friendship with Libby began.

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[xita]

You make good points Bob. We know sofie has said that Mom thinks Jonesy walks on water, it could be because Mom can see what lies ahead for Sofie. And the more I think about it the more it seems right. They were going to kiss and Mommy put a stop to that. Libby seems immature but she seems perfectly nice and I really liked the way she acted in the last episode. She told Sofie that she was happy for her but warned her about Jonesy, it's not really her place to say more than that but her warning was very genuine. I don't see anything evil coming from that but of course Mom may just cause yeah back then I believe the in term was "invert." I am into the preview that has her telling Libby, "I can't stop thinking about you." or something like that

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[Warduke]

I found this at TV Guide...

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Carnivale's Future Foretold

by Michael Ausiello



It looks like HBO wants to get on Management's good side: The cabler is thisclose to renewing its deliriously addictive — yet modestly rated — Depression-era freak show Carnivale for a second season. "Barring disaster, which means the ratings falling off a cliff, we should be getting a pick-up [any day now]," exec producer Daniel Knauf tells TV Guide Online. "We have every expectation that we will be back."



Not bad for a series many in the media were quick to dub a disappointment. After a strong start, Carnivale's ratings tapered off, a development insiders blamed on the drama's slow pacing and increasingly complex mythology. But in terms of Internet traffic, Carnivale is nothing short of a phenomenon. Viewers have been jamming the show's official site at HBO.com in record numbers, picking apart everything from Ben's creepy dreams to whether Management is a He or a She. And the millions of fans who stuck by Samson and his band of merry misfits were rewarded with one payoff after another, culminating with Sunday's action-packed season finale (9 pm/ET).



"With storytelling, if you want to get the ball rolling, it's got to roll slow at first," Knauf explains. "I'm really happy that HBO was willing to weather those slings and arrows, because there really is no way to write this kind of epic without laying a lot of pipe at the top. Nobody liked to do it, but we knew we had to do it so it would pay off later on. But it's insanely risky when you're breaking a series to a new audience and it's not like, 'Bing, bang, boom!'"



That said, Knauf promises a faster pace — as well as a handful of new Carnies — when Season 2 kicks off in early '05. "It's going to move at a nice clip," he says. "I would say that the last three episodes are a pretty good estimate of where we're gonna be at from the standpoint of pacing next year."



But don't look for that long-awaited showdown between good (fugitive Ben) and evil (Brother Justin). Not next season anyway. "That's pretty well down the line," he says. "That's our endgame. The whole story is building toward that." Instead, Knauf teases that "elements" of their worlds will begin to collide in Season 2. "But Brother Justin and Ben having a light-saber fight? That won't happen."

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[maudmac]

Thanks, Brian. I sure hope HBO picks it up. But...

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when Season 2 kicks off in early '05

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That's forever away!!!

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i got a dance ain't got no steps  /  i'm gonna let the music move me around

[Warduke]

I know Holley, that's so far away



And it's really starting to get interesting.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

05??????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That's so long. Oh man that's a long fucking wait. This show is sooo good. Of course people don't watch it, it takes thinking to get into this show, why would you want to do that? Grr. I am glad we're getting more, but no brother justin or ben meeting till oh I don't know 2007 maybe? hahaha, i am going to have to learn to be patient. Ok, I am not.. grumpy!

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[BBOvenGuy]

"Early '05" probably means January or February - so we're really only talking about 15 months or so. Not two years. It'll be back sooner than Doctor Who will...

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

[Warduke]

I won't talk about the finale just yet, but I will post a link to pics of Sofie's vision from the last episode.



Enjoy

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[deodarling]

I would bet a house that "MANAGEMENT'S" voice is that of LINDA HUNT, recently a judge on "The Practice".



Actually, I'd bet a house plus a Hummer.



The timbre of her voice is similar to the late Mercedes McCambridge of radio and screen.

[technopagan78]

I'd bet a house, plus the farm that it's Hunt. But the mystery of management's existence/gender is hardly solved. After all,long before she acted on "The Practice," Hunt won an Academy Award for her portrayal of a man in "The Year of Living Dangerously."