Rome

[Tyrex316]

Hi everyone-
I thought I'd create a thread for any kitties who are fans of the show to discuss episodes, characters, etc...
The newest episode-wow-HBO better be thanking their lucky stars because in Max Pirkis they've gotten the best actor to play young Octavian. His coolness during that torture and answer session was scary. More so by the fact that he was also creeping Pullo out as well who seemed to be in a state of fear and awe as it dawned on him that this kid was just as coldblooded, if not more so, as he is.

[sam7777]

I caught the first two eps of Rome when HBO had a free preview and it looks good. However, I will have to wait for the DVD set to come out to watch the rest. Cable is already too expensive for me to be able to afford premium channels like HBO.

I liked the characters and setting and the fact that they could show more mature content. I felt bad for Octavians sister gettin forced to divorce the husband that she loved to marry Pompey and then he dumps her for someone else more politically inclined. Great stuff.

[Hemiola]

This series is absolutely first class in every way. They have made every effort to be historically accurate and true to the period (i.e., the end of the Republic). This is especially obvious if it is compared to that crapfest that ABC ran during the summer--that was just embarrassing to watch.

I only have a minor complaint: they have once again succumbed to the notion of making the Romans into Brits. This all started with William Wyler and "Ben Hur" back in 1959: he wanted to distinguish between the "good guys" (in this case, Jews) and the "bad guys" (Romans), so the Judeans became Americans and the Romans became Brits. This convention was continued the following year with "Spartacus" (once again, the slaves were Americans, the Romans were Brits). This pattern has, for some strange reason, persisted ever since (think of "Gladiator"). When are these producers going to realize that the Romans were ITALIANS, not Brits. It would have been more appropriate to cast someone like, say, James Gandolfini as Caesar rather than the distinguished (and excellent actor!) Ciaran Hinds.

That said, I await each new episode with great anticipation!

[seurat]

I've been enjoying this too, and I would agree that the best single scene so far was the scene with Octavian and Pullo down in the sewers. Brilliantly played and quite surprising. I like both of those characters a lot, Pullo has a lot more going on in his head and heart than first appears. I also like the Octavia character, and I liked the scene she had with the woman Caesar dumpd for political reasons. Wonder if there is an alliance brewing there.

I'm still having a bit of trouble keeping track of all the characters, let alone their names, but every episode so far has been entertaining and I'm sure I'll keep watching. Loved the last couple of scenes in the latest episode, the orator doing the commercial for the bread company (might as well have been, this proclamation brought to you by...) and the conversation between Pullo and his friend as the boat is hit by lightning. Great stuff.

[Culzean]

I'm enjoying this program as well. Atila and Octavian are real standouts.

Of course the very first thing I noticed was the opening credits. To say they were inspired by the opening credits for Carnivale would be an understatement. The style of the graphics is very similar and it's almost the same music.

I was a little surprised when Marc Anthony decided to go help Ceaser after all.

[Tyrex316]

I picked up on the vibe between Servilia and Octavia as well.From some spoilers I've read Octavia is supposed to have sex with a woman this season.They've yet to say who that woman is. I don't know but from the previews for next week Servilia appears to be pulling a Roman-esque Mrs.Robinson on Octavia. When it comes to payback, I think Atia's going to find that she's got a lot to learn. She cost Servilia Ceasar then Servilia is going to take her daughter.

[sam7777]

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/10/hbo_attacking_bittorrent.html

HBO Attacking BitTorrent Permalink
By nat on October 04, 2005

HBO is actively poisoning the BitTorrent downloads of the new show Rome. In addition to an older tactic of offering bogus downloads that never complete, HBO is now obstructing the downloads offered by other people. BitTorrent downloads are peer-to-peer, but the peers are introduced to each other by a tracker ("you're looking for Rome Season 1 Episode 2, talk to 127.0.0.1"). HBO runs peers that tell the tracker they have all the chunks of the show, but then send garbage data when a downloader requests a chunk. The downloading client can detect that it's garbage and will try another peer for the chunk, but the end result is that it takes much much longer to download shows. This isn't HBO's first move to stop online distribution (see this story of a guy who received a "you're busted" letter from HBO) but it's the most active effort I've heard about. It's also very effective--to test this, I randomly selected a healthy torrent for the 2nd episode of Rome, and after hundreds of failed chunks the download stalled at around 30%.

[Tyrex316]

So-Servilia and Octavia, true love or just the start of Servilia's revenge against Atia. This IS Rome so I'm betting on the second option;) Still am up in the air about who exactly was seducing who but when Atia told Octavia that Sevilia wanted her to come by to do some "weaving", I was like "LOL, yeah....right."

[Hemiola]

Yup, there's a definite "vibe" between them, but I wonder if it's more a question of poor Octavia finding in Servilia more of a "mother figure" than her actual harpy of a mother provides. We'll have to see where this goes...

[seurat]

i think there is some genuine attraction there, certainly on Servilia's part, but she is clearly scheming as well. And I wouldn't put it past Octavia to have ulterior motives also, look at what family she comes from after all. it will be interesting to see how long it lasts anyway, and it has been fun to see how inconsequential the idea of same sex relationships seems to be in that culture. (Remember Atia 's reaction when she thought Octavian and Caesar were having an affair, she was proud of him. And in the brothel scene, Octavian is offered a choice of partners that includes at least one man as I recall.)

I did miss Octavian in this ep, and would have like to see more of Pullo and the captain (still can't remember his name). And I was a little disappointed that they didn't bother to show us the big battle, presumably for financial reasons. But there were still a lot of scenes I liked, Pompey describing how he lost the battle was very well done, and I loved the castaway storyline and Caesar's reasons for not puniashing them made perfect sense to me. Why mess around with people that are that lucky? Don't suppose there is any chance that Pompey's wife and kids will be spared, so I'm relieved they ended that scene where they did.

[Hemiola]

Well, another fine episode last night; I think I'm going to buy the DVDs when they come out (which they surely will:) ).

Anyway, while it was amusing to contemplate the idea of an ordinary legionnaire having his way with the Queen of Egypt, historically no one has ever questioned that Caesarion was actually Caesar's son. And while Cleo was indeed very young when she encountered Caesar, it's worth remembering that she already had two (!) children, and that she spoke three (!) languages fluently--not bad for a woman in those days!

Also, it looks like Servilia and Octavia have, um, consummated their relationship--I wonder what this will lead to given the evolving political situation.

Poor Cicero! Antony's threats were really nauseating given what he actually historically did to the guy.

[Tyrex316]

Oh, yes, a very good episode. Loved the MA/Cicero scene. Can't decide if cicero is just that arrogant or that stupid to think he and Cato can pass messages to each other about raising armies and such and MA would be blissfully unaware. Nice to see Octavian will be back in two weeks.

[seurat]

Since my specific knowledge of Roman history is pretty much limited to what Robert Graves covered in his books, I can't remember what MA did to Cicero. Doesn't sound good though. I would say Servila and Octavia have "consumated' that relationship quite a few times by now being as a year had passed at the end of the ep. Surely Atia knows all about it by now, that should be interesting.

I really liked Cleo, may even have to google that actress and see what else she has done, she didn't look familiar to me from anything I've seen though. Good scene when Brutus came home, not a word needed to be said and we could read them perfectly. Good old Pullo, possibly the luckiest Roman soldier in history. As long as he keeps his mouth shut, that is.

As to the English actor discussion a while back, it hasn't really bothered me up to now no doubt because I'm so used to the casting of obvious Brits in these parts, but the Egyptians were a bit laughable weren't they? They could have tried a little harder to cast those parts more believably. And why isn't it on next week?

[Hemiola]

After Cicero delivered his "Phillipic" speeches in the Senate against Antony (this was after the assassination of Julius Caesar), MA had him hunted down and killed. He then cut Cicero's head off, and put a spike through his tongue for having dared to delivered these anti-Antony speeches and displayed the head in the Forum. **shudder** The real Cicero was about 60 at the time.

However, MA eventually "got his" at the battle of Actium, where he was soundly defeated by Octavian (later to call himself Augustus Caesar) and his naval commander, Marcus Agrippa.

Re: English Actors--I just think that while it was very original in the 1960s when it was done by Wyler and Kubrick, it's really a bit of a cliché now.

[Hemiola]

On the whole, an interesting (if transitional) episode last night.

However, being such a fan of Roman history, I must once again put on my mortarboard hat and play the pedant :

1. The real Cato's death was actually a lot more gruesome. He did indeed flee to Utica, but on being told of Caesar's unstoppable advance, he ordered his son to surrender to Caesar and declared his intention to kill himself. Not wanting to lose his father, the son ("Cato the Younger') ordered all weapons to be taken away from him. Not to be thwarted, the old man found a knife and proceeded to eviscerate himself. Stopped in time, a military surgeon sewed him up and bandaged him, leaving him at nearly the point of death. When the old man was informed that Caesar had entered the city, with immense effort he shouted that he would never live under a dictatorship of Caesar, pulled his bandages off and his stitches out, and bled to death**yikes**. He was forever after honored as the "Last Noble Roman" for his dedication to the Republic, and was thereafter called Cato Uticensis (i.e. "of Utica").

2. So far as I know, no Roman historian or historical source has ever maintained that Octavian had an incestuous relationship with sister!!!!!

On other fronts, looks like Pullo is becoming increasingly attracted to his slave girl.

[werewolf123]

Not historical at all, but do you think octavian set up servilla's public, political humilation?

[seurat]

My immediate thought was that Atia was behnd it, since she just found out what Servila had been saying to Octavia. Don't know the historical basis for it though, Hemiola may fill us in. (And while you're at it Hem, is a magistrate in ancient Roman society a sort of civic official - a sort of mayor perhaps -or is it closer to the modern meaning and more like a judge?)

I thought this was an amazing ep frpm the beginning shot of the elephant to the final public humilation of Servila. We did have the disturbing incest scene - ewww - but even that had the end of the scene with Octavian revealing he knew what she wanted, and Octavia's very wise decison to tell him everything. He is the smartest of the bunch, and I don't believe he would betray or use her the way her mother and Servila have done. (And now that I think of it, did Octavian know what she wanted before she delivered herself to him? Ewww again.)

The biggest surprise to me was Caesar' arrival at the home to offer the magistrate position. I certainly didn't expect to see him on the doorstep. Much cleverer than having the two of them somehow survive some fight when they were clearly so outnumbered. I quite like the slavegirl, so I approve of Pullo going to her for comfort. We'll see if this allows us to see more of his caring side, since I've been assuming all along he does have one. If Atia was behind that attack I think she'll pay heavily for it. And although the deaths of the two senators may not have been altogether historically accurate, I did think it worked and stays with th spirit of what really happened. Finally we got another great commercial from the orator - Roman bread for Romans indeed

[Hemiola]

Hi Seurat**waves**

A Roman magistrate was, indeed, more of a judge than a "mayor". Although, of course, a Roman procurator (=governor) or other high official (even a military tribune or general!) could certainly serve as a judge (the most infamous example is, of course, Pontius Pilate). During times of persecution, for example, people suspected of being Christians were typically brought before a magistrate to declare their loyalty to Rome. They could do so by swearing fealty to the Praetorian God (=the Emperor's personal deity) and by crumbling a little bit of incense onto an altar to one of the Roman gods. If an accused person refused to do so, the magistrate had the authority to sentence that person to death (there were, of course, special exceptions made for ethnic groups with their own special national deities, e.g., Judeans;-) ).

Incidentally, Cato the Younger, who surrendered to Caesar on his father's orders at Utica, still came to an unfortunate end: he joined the party of the conspirators who assasinated Caesar (i.e. Brutus and Cassius) and was defeated along with them by Marc Antony at the battle of Philippi, where he chose to kill himself as his father had done before.

[seurat]

Well, not as enjoyable an ep for me last night but mostly because of one very distrubing scene near the end. There were some good scene along the way so I'm not saying it was a bad ep, just one I wouldn't likely watch again. I liked the scenes where the new magistrate spoke to the crowd and his private conversations with Caesar's advisor when he finds out that it is not a real election. Octavia was very good in this one too, and the scene between Servila and Atia was strong too.

But the scene where Pullo murders the slave pretty much ruined it for me. There is no excuse for what he did, and it makes what I found a likeable character pretty much ireedeemable. I suspected there was going to be a flaw in his dream, but I thought that Eairene would simply tell him she wasn't interested. It didn't occur to me that she had someone else. Remarkably bad timing on the guy's part of course, if Eirene had a chance to tell him first I like to think he wouldn't have acted so violently. Tough to see him acting that way, it will be interesting to see how low they take him now.

[Hemiola]

I quite enjoyed the episode (no.10), mostly because we got the very first authentic filmed version of a Roman Triumph.

After the various silly depictions of Triumphs by Hollywood (think of the almost hilariously campy version in "Quo Vadis"), it was wonderful to see the "float" with Vercingetorix (although he wasn't killed during the Triumph--that would have been considered a sacrilege!), and the painting of Caesar's face red (they didn't explain this, but the reason was so that the victorious general would resemble the statue of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, the face of which was also painted red--in this way the general was, in effect, a "god for a day"). It's a pity they didn't have more "floats" (a real Triumph would have exhibited the captured booty--cf. the depiction of such a "float" from the Triumph of Titus on his arch), and they should have depicted the soldiers singing obscene couplets about the general to show that they still knew he was mortal

Seurat--regarding Pullo, I wasn't that surprised, since he has been depicted as being impulsive and, let's face it, something of a brute. Regarding the attitude of Vorenus, once again no surprise: slaves were property, and killing one was thought of more as "vandalism" than as murder (Imagine, if you will, someone breaking your washing machine).
We may not like it, but that was the Roman attitude!

[seurat]

Hi Hem, I'm glad to hear they wouldn't have killed the King of Gaul at the Triumph that way, it didn't look right to me somehow. No surprise that they would have killed him of course, just not as a centrepiece of that celebration. I also liked that they showed his countrymen picking his body up later and giving him a proper ceremony. And you're right, the Triumph was very well done, they clearly spent some money on that scene. As for Pullo, I'll just have to learn to expect less of him - he is a man of his time, and not a refined one even for those days. Godd thing he didn't kill Eirene though, that would have been to much for me.

[Hemiola]

So here we are at the penultimate episode leading up to the big finish (which, as we all know, will occur on March 15, 44 BCE ).

Poor Vorenus! He is in that most stressful of positions--an honest man surrounded by corruption. It is a good thing that with a show like this people can see that as bad as things are now, where we have an administration infested with cronyism, corruption, and incompetence, things were far worse at the end of the Roman Republic. Offices and votes were, purely and simply, bought and sold. All positions and offices were obtained by patronage. And, of course, brutality and violence were everyday occurrances. As my old Roman history professor once told me, if you want to understand the Senate in the late Republican period, just look at the shark tank at the Aquarium: mostly they just swim around, but every now and then they go on a feeding frenzy and start eating each other.

As for Pullo, all I can say is YIKES! This episode certainly took the graphic violence about as far as it can be taken. The fact is that the Romans were not able to steal a large portion of the world from its rightful owners by being nice guys, and we really shouldn't be surprised that they thought of gladiatorial matches as "entertainment" (note the children who were in the audience). I hope everyone noticed the tiny arena in which the match took place: the Colisseum was not to be built until many years later by the Flavian emperors.

[Culzean]

That was an awfully violent episode. I'm pretty sure the gladiator scene was good, but I confess I had my eyes closed through half of it.

To judge Caesar strictly by what I'm seeing on this program, I'm getting pretty mixed messages. On the one hand he's a corrupt tyrant, on the other hand he seems fairly decent. He could easily have killed off his former enemies, and taken their land (and given it to his troops). Instead, he's trying to make nice with a lot of folks.

Of course, he did pay to have the guy Pullo killed taken out. Like I said, I'm not sure how to read Caesar.

On a side note, I was at a friend's house recently and the movie Master and Commander was playing on the TV. I had seen this Russell Crowe film when it first came out and was struck (like everyone else who saw it) by the remarkable actor who played the young boy officer. He was the little blond fellow who loses his arm in the movie. That was the same actor who is playing Octavian.

I don't recall his real name, but he is quite talented.

[Tyrex316]

Yep-Max Pirkis-one of the many reasons to watch this show IMO is his stellar performance as Octavian.

[Hemiola]

Yes, the lad does excellently as the young Octavian. However, they have recently announced that there will be a second season of "Rome" which, I assume, will deal with the civil war following Caesar's assassination and the establishment of the Principate. Who, I wonder, will they get to play the Octavian who will then become Gaius Julius Octavianus Caesar Augustus?

Re: Caesar--yes, Culzean, he is tough to read, but so is the actual historical person! My own feeling, reading both his own works and also what his contemporaries had to say about him, is that unlike other tyrants (both then and now) he had a genuine sense of history. He sincerely wanted future historians to think well of him, and he hoped to do so by putting things right in Rome. Who knows? If he had lived, he might have succeeded; as it is, Octavian (later Caesar Augustus) took up Caesar's cause and, for the most part, achieved his goals (peace abroad and prosperity at home).

Cicero, who was, to say the least, ambivalent in his feelings about Caesar, said of him in the Second Philippic "Ille vir ingenium habet" ("That man had genius"). Not a bad legacy, I'd say.

[seurat]

Every once in a while over the past couple of days I've caught myself chanting "Thirteen!", can't imagine why.

That was one of the bloodiest fights I've seen in tv or movies for a long time, and I can't say I enjoyed it but I certainly was on the edge of my seat. And I did notice that was the Forum, much smaller place and easier to walk out of alive too luckily for Pullo and Vorenus. There will be repreucussions for this of course, but given what else is going to happen next ep I'm sure a condemmned man walking out of the Forum will be overshadowed. Gotta love the young Octavian, going straight to the point with Caesar and Vorenus - what can we do to save Pullo? And by the way Caesar , did you pay to have that man killed? A lovely acting turn by Ciaran Hinds in this ep I thought, both in that scene, the one with Brutus over the board game and with MA when he first sits in his throne. Too bad they couldn't stretch out his story for a second season and have the Ides happen sometime next season. I'll also miss the actor playing Octavian, he is brilliant.

About the last ep Hem, I didn't know about the soldiers chanting couplets but I seem to recall that the slave in the chariot holding the wreath is supposed to be whispering in the hero's ear that he is mortal. Too bad next week is the end of the show for awhile, I'm going to miss it.

[Tyrex316]

Actually since the second season won't air until 2007 and they aren't even going to start filming it until mid 2006, I don't think they'll have to recast Max.He's 16 or nearly so now. Since HBO's Rome doesn't seem all that concerned with ages and timelines, I'm thinking he may be Octavian/Augustus the whole series run. Which should be another 5 years, hopefully.

[Culzean]

Thanks Hemiola.

I really do appreciate your historical perspective. After every episode I wonder, how much of that was true? It's great to be able to come to this board and find out.

Thanks again!

[werewolf123]

Did pullo have his prayer answered? Was he saved from the arena only to be cursed by making him responsible for the happiness and long life of others?
In the triumph , is not the saying whispered in the generals ear , "glory is fleeting"?

[Hemiola]

Culzean--you're quite welcome.

werewolf 123--actually, there is some debate among the sources as what the "wreath-holder" would say. Some say it was "Remember you are only a man"; others "Glory is fleeting"; still others report that he said "Look behind you", i.e., at the troops who did the actual fighting and acknowledge that they are the ones who are responsible for your Triumph--I kinda prefer the last one .