‘My Girl’ – A Detailed Analysis of Willow and Tara's r'ship

[chilled monkey]

Interesting review.



I agree with Garner. I have read a lot of different opinions on what Glory's victims experience and what she does to a person. I've come to the conclusion that what she takes is pure neural energy. If she stole/altered a person's thoughts and feelings (which would be a violation) then someone warm and kind like Tara should be poison to her. In that respect I don't think it can be called mind-rape.

[darkmagicwillow]

I found parts of the argument difficult to accept as we don't see any prior buildup of those tensions, but where this episode really falls apart for me is Willow's attack on Glory. ME likes this story as they did the same thing with Giles attacking Angelus when Jenny died, but I couldn't suspend my disbelief for that episode either.



I have no problem accepting Willow wanting and taking revenge on Glory, but not right there, right then, with so little preparation. Willow might even be willing to give her life for that revenge if she didn't think there was any hope for Tara, but not without a better chance of success than a few minutes with the Darkest Magicks book would give. I could've believed Willow going after Glory if she had done some real preparation (picking up the Orb of Dagon for starters). Similarly, I could've bought Giles burning down the factory if he had waited til daylight and sealed all the entrances save the one where he was waiting with a crossbow, so he confronted Angelus when he had the advantage.



As for Glory, I'm not sure that I'd call it "mind rape" either, though we can't tell exactly what Glory is doing. I don't think it has anything to do with neural energy as depleting that would result in a depressed to coma-like state, depending on how much was taken. Glory is taking some essential component of the self, whose removal shatters the rational mind, leaving behind an incoherent, childlike personality. The aftereffects of the attack on Tara are an interesting question, especially as they were completely ignored on the show.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[LostWithoutTara]

I called the brain-sucking 'mind-rape' as I think the script really painted it as that way - whether that was the intention is another matter:



GLORY: Think about it. You think your hand hurts? Imagine what you'd feel with my fingers wiggling in your brain. (Tara looks very scared) It doesn't kill you. What it does ... is make you feel like you're in a noisy little dark room ... (Glory frowns and fidgets uncomfortably) naked and ashamed ... and there are things in the dark that need to hurt you because you're bad ... little pinching things that go in your ears ... (Tara begins to cry) and crawl on the inside of your skull. And you know ... that if the noise and the crawling would stop ... that you could remember how to get out.



and



WILLOW: Tara, Tara, are you okay?

TARA: It's dirty. It's all dirty. And all over me!



She begins brushing at her stomach as if to brush off dirt.



TARA: Dirty. Dirty. I'm bad. Bad. (whimpering)

WILLOW: (crying) Tara. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.



I did have a major problem with the argument and lack of development of their problems, but I suppose with all the Glory/Joyce issues flying around ME couldn't be bothered.



The revenge is fine with me. Both Giles' and Willow's attempts were stupid, but I doubt they cared to think about what they were doing. They just wanted to hurt the person that'd hurt them, IMO, and that rage and desire is hard to control especially in an emotionally fragile situation like in 'Passion' and 'Tough Love'.

[DarkRed]

if their argument was problematic for you imagin how i felt seeing only half of it, and then willow storming out of the room!?! cuz you see, i saw these ep from Star World, which likes to cut out all the good WT parts on the show!! so i saw only until willow said: it's not the magic that scares you, it's the other changes in my life.." and then- cut - to willow storming out of the room and tara looking lost..

that was the most annoying, sonofabitch thing ever.. i so hate that channel!! (it also sensured their first kiss in The Body, and meny other nice TW moments... *sob*)



anyway, back to the topic. i saw the revenge part as very natural.. when you're in such an amotional state you don't stop to think and plan.. you act! only some ppl can actually plan their revenge, and then it's mostly because they got the chance to do it only after the act has happened and they cool down by then...



oohhh.. i can't wait for the S6 analysis.. it's gonna be so interesting, especially since most ppl disliked it while i loved it



hehe.. love. anne.

Edited by: maudmac at: 4/28/03 3:59:28 am

[LostWithoutTara]

Oh, how annoying that they censored things. If they don't show them as intended, why bother? But then again Sky TV is just as bad (although they left all the juicy W/t moments uncut ).



Season Six analysis will come soon, and I'm kinda both looking forward and not looking forward to it, mainly as I'm going to be attempting to analyse and justify a story that I'm not overly keen on. Willow's arc was full of problems that year, and it's hard to try and see what or why she acted that way when it contradicts what we've seen before. (prime example - magic addiction in 'Wrecked').



Oh well, I'll try my best.

[Garner]

You know at the time I didn't have a problem with the revenge in TL or after Jenny died, but Darkmagicwillow makes some good points there. We know that Willow is a by the book do things with a plan sort of gal and that was definitely not what she did. Still, as Spike said she was a powerful pissed off witch and might have felt the need to take on Glory, make her pay, and see that no one else got hurt. Or was just acting off emotion period. I still say the aspect most overlooked is what kind of force she invoked from Darkest Magics to get the power to take on Glory.



As for the mind sucking. Yeah, there is that talk about being dirty and ashamed and all that. But I took that as the feeding had neurological effects on the person and was part of the feeding process. To sort of create this horrible world for them or really mess them over. I don't know. I think of rape as more of a violation, a mind rape would be more like Spock forcibly intruding and reading Kim Cattral's character's mind in ST. What Glory did seems more like feeding or attacking someone, an assault that has traumatic or supernatural side effects rather than a violation like rape. For me it just seems a bit different in connoation, but I could see how the term could be used. I did try and deal with Tara's recovery from the incident in my own fanfic called Consequences, of which I have two parts but never got back to it and probably should.



I can't imagine trying to watch W/T and having the best parts censored. That would suck! It would also make the W/T parts very few and far between as there really weren't as many of them as there should have been, but then I'm biased. Nope, the W/T show would have been fine by me. Oh well, Joss is an idiot who had a spinoff self made and destroyed that possibility too.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

I had a lot of suspension of disbelief problems as I watched the end of s5, starting with Willow in TL, followed by the hundred or so knights on horseback in Spiral, then the Buffy/Dawn switch in The Gift. And WotW just didn't go anywhere, so it's not my favorite season despite some great episodes like Family and The Body. I'd love to see your Tara recovery story though.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Garner]

You know now that you mention it there were a lot of problems at the end of season 5. The Knights thing struck me as odd when I saw it. I like the ep but why they were all running around in medeival chain mail instead of say modern tac armor with guns is beyond me. Hey, modern knights, what a concept!? I know, they would have killed Buffy and everyone that way. Oopps. The horses chasing the camper bothered me a lot too. And then there was the Buffy Dawn switch and I would have preferred Dawn went and then no one remembered her. And the whole hammer thing while sort of cool, also sort of wasn't set up very well either. I guess I did like Glory, but after Adam that's not saying much.



If you want to find the story, I think it got scrubbed off when the board changed format last year, so try Wiccan Ways, it should be there under my name and is Consequences.



There were a few other good parts to season 5, I still like triangle and the one after with the Council. At least in those W/T had a bit more to do or there was more of Amber and Tara. I just hate that she was so underused and by the time we get season sux, she suffers from Willow being twisted to fit the plot. Though I will admit to being able to watch Bargaining at least.



Garner

[darkmagicwillow]

Olaf being called a god in The Gift was a big surprise to me as he wasn't in Triangle, and if they were able to deal with him as a one-episode monster, what was the big deal with Glory? I didn't like Triangle, and the idea that I suffered through it for this last minute, lame attempt to give Buffy a way to take Glory on hand to hand didn't help endear it to me. They had a lot of neat ideas on fighting Glory, such as Willow's reverse mindsuck to restore Tara which I really would've liked to have seen more of (where did she get the spell? were there side effects? did it cause any problems in their relationship?), but the Troll Hammer wasn't one of them.



Overall, despite my criticisms, I enjoyed season 5 and think it was a good partial recovery from the problems of season 4. Willow and Tara were both growing and together, and the development of their relationship is a large part of what kept me interested. I read your fic Consequences and I liked how you started to address their problems arising from TL. I'd be interested in seeing where you take them if you decide to continue the story.



Edited to add:



There are interesting parallels between the Glory arc in season 5 and the better executed Beast/Jasmine arc in Angel season 4. Unfortunately, I found Jasmine's defeat in hand-to-hand combat even more unbelievable than Glory's, which illustrates the problem of the big bag being stronger each succeeding season. That's one reason I liked the idea of the big bad in season 6 being the Scoobies themselves, and Willow in particular. I really liked the idea of the W/T separation, where each girl grew, though obviously I hated the resolution.



However, Tara is left out of that exploration of the darkness inside and I felt that to be one of the missteps of season 6. It's not that she doesn't fall, but that she isn't tested in the same way as Buffy or Willow is. Tara is a good person; however, that doesn't mean she doesn't have potential problems. How could Tara have been tested and what might have tempted her to stray from her path?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/1/03 12:13:01 pm

[daddykat]

darkmagicwillow;

You've pulled up soem good questions there, as to my won ideas re. them, here goes:

Olaf as a Troll "God"; as I undertsand it, that's how "Triangle" was originally written. It was edited out of the broadcast version but Dr. was working from the original vice a transcript as his source when he wrote "The Gift". A LOT of people have commented on this over the years and you're in good company.



The spell to restore Tara's sanity; from how Willow described it, I thought it was an original spell she wrote combining elements from different spells that sounded like they'd do part of the job. As to researching it, I figure b2n W&T's personal library and The MAgic Box she had plenty to work with. I don't see tHIs specifically affecting the relationship much b/c it was a spell cast against Glory herself, Willow wasn't really manipulating the contents of Tara's sanity, just putting it back where it belonged.



Exploring Tara's personal darkness; All I can say is, that's yet something else I'd sacrifice 2 goats and a ram in Times Square to be able to have seen. Would have answered those who disliked her as a cardboard study in perfection.

[LostWithoutTara]

Mmm... I much prefer the Glory arc to the tedium that is Angel S4. The writing was tighter, funnier and just better than the endless repetition we're being served at the moment.



As much as I would have liked to have seen Tara's darker side, I'm glad I didn't. If ME had given her some 'issue' to work through not even my shipperness would have made me want to watch it. Tara and Giles were the higher concious; responsible adults. They had to teach valuable lessons to ego (Dawn) heart (Xander) fear (Willow) practicality (Anya) and self (Buffy).

[Garner]

DMW, what I liked about Triangle had nothing to do with the hammer and Olaf specifically. I liked it because it got a lot of Willow and Anya's resentment out in the open. It had Xander hiding behind Tara (always cool) and I loved Tara and Buffy together and Buffy opening up to her. That finally showed that she was part of the group not just for the Slayage, or because she was with Willow. I also loved Tara's obvious concern for Willow when the Magic Box was trashed and Willow wasn't there. Her face said it all. There were a number of funny lines and by and large Olaf was amusing too. As a sort of throw away that advances the Scoobies stories I thought it worked. As an arc ep that sets up the Gift it failed miserably. And it has one of the best sequences that shows the down side to the story consistency: Xander gets hit on the head with the hammer and doesn't die or even stay down! Yeah, right.



You also raise an interesting question about Tara not being really tempted by anything. I suppose her test was whether she stays in an abusive relationship or leaves, and she chooses to leave. I still don't think Willow would ever do mind altering spells on Tara against her will, I think Willow is too loving, smart and compassionate to EVER do that, BUT, given that she did, Tara did have to leave. She couldn't trust Willow anymore and it was a dangerous situation for her.



What other more reasonable temptation could Tara have gone through? That's easy. Someone hurts Willow and takes her away, bleeding and maybe dieing, for some evil ritual sacrifice thing. Tara has to find Willow, find her fast, and maybe even comes across one of the baddies, say an evil human magician, and must decide how to get him or her to talk. Does she use magic? Does she apply physical pressure (torture?) Does she use her magic offensively? Does she lose it like Willow did in TL? That could have been interesting. What if someone offered Tara a way to get her mother back? Would she do that? There are a few things that could have been interesting with her, but they would have required a bit more thought on how Willow and Tara's magic works, and defined her character a bit more fully. She never was really given that chance.



Oh, lastly, glad you liked the fics, I do still remember where I was going (mostly) and will have to finish that in the future.



Garner

[sam7777]

Agreed on Tara. It really stuck out to me that Tara was the only one to not have her dark side explored. It seems as if they were setting her up and setting her aprat from the others. Thsi telegrpahed alot of wht they were going to do in the finale. Imagine if we had the same setup and Xander dies taking a bullet for Buffy as others have suggested in this htread. That would have been shocking and a real twist. It also would have been daring to kill a regular character and unexpected. They also would have turned some cliches on their head by not killing the secondary "red shirt" character and really showing that anyone can die on the show.



I'll have to admit that I was more furstrated than anything else with 5th season. I really wanted more Willow and Tara than the scaps we got. I lmost tuned out at that point but kept on because I loved how Willow took care of tara and was hoping we'd see Tara help Willow in season 6. I feel snookered but at least I learned cut my losses ciz of last seaosn.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[darkmagicwillow]

Thanks for your comments on the script change, daddykat. I didn't know that, though I still don't buy Olaf as a god, and as Garner asks, how did the hammer not kill Xander?



Garner, you're quite right about Triangle having some good Tara moments and I enjoyed those (thanks for reminding me of them), but I find Anya annoying onscreen and the premise just didn't work for me. Of course, I also have a hard time watching Star Trek as Inigo's quote from the Princess Bride "I don't think that word means what you think it means," runs through my mind every time they try to talk science.



Returning to Tara, your suggestions are the kind of thing I was thinking about for testing Tara. Tara doesn't have to make any choices when it comes to using powerful magicks to combat Glory as that all happens after her brainsuck. She's also not in the same position Willow is over the summer. Willow has not only lost her best friend (and probably has to take care of Tara for a while), but it's clear in Bargaining that Giles and the others expect her to take up where Buffy left off. The choices and situations she's faced with are much simpler than those Willow faces, so it's not too surprising that Willow falls while Tara doesn't. However, that doesn't mean that Willow is a worse person than Tara.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/2/03 11:20:03 am

[LostWithoutTara]

Thaks for the reminder of the great Tara Triangle moments, although the scenes with Buffy made me wince (SMG's really bad fake crying). The T/B scene in Dead Things was much better.



As I've mentioned S6, I'll repeat that I'm glad Tara had no specific challenge. With all the sucky things they did to the others, I needed to see a responsible, mature adult.



As I said, Tara and Giles were the higher conscious that year. They were the role models for those lost in adolescence. Without Tara, fear (Willow) became hatred and domination, Dawn (ego) became neglected and ignored, and self (Buffy) stumbled hopelessly. Tara had to be unchallenged. She was the lighthouse in the gloomy water of the Season.

[darkmagicwillow]

Tara having problems wouldn't mean that she's not a responsible adult; I'm not suggesting that she have exactly the same character arc as Willow during s6. Her problems could be quite different and obviously don't necessarily have to happen at the same time as Willow's.



I can't see Giles as a role model in s6. He handled Willow so poorly and his denial of the locator spell after Flooded prevented the Scoobies from dealing with the Trio before they could have killed anyone, including Tara. He yelled at her, then left her without even mentioning the possibility of addiction, when it seems to be a commonplace with the existence of "Spellcasters Anonymous" in Older and Far Away and what Sam says about the fate of the mages who helped her and Riley.



Returning to Triangle, I went back to the script for The Gift and noticed that it was Anya who told them about the hammer during her pep talk. Maybe she's talking it up to encourage the Scoobies? It may be a magic hammer, but not necessarily a god's hammer.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[LostWithoutTara]

Sorry, I didn't mean that Tara couldn't have problems and not be responsible, just that if ME had written something for her like they did the other characters in the Season it would've been awful.



The addiction is hugely problematic. It can't be a black mark against Giles for not mentioning it as Willow was abusing, never addicted. The consequent Riley/Spellcaster Anonymous things were just attempts to provide a ridiculous story with some backing. His anger is completely understandable - Willow manipulated black and very dangerous magics that could have threatened everyone and still couldn't see why it was wrong. Of course bringing Buffy back was good, but Willow failed to see the potential consequences - something that she consistently failed to do. Her desire to help is admirable, but you have to weigh the pros and cons before taking such drastic action. I can't believe none of the Scoobs considered that Buffy might have been in heaven.



I think you're right about Triangle - Anya would've tried to cheer up the others, and the hammer was a good idea for her to mention.

[Gatito Grande]

Hey, I came to this thread late, so pardon some major back-tracking.



Re: "Restless" (Willow's Dream). Something I haven't seen mentioned, is in the first (red bedroom/Yummy Tara Back) conversation. Tara says "You don't know everything about me" and Willow responds, asking "Do I know your true name?" To which Tara replies "Oh, you know that." Contrast this scene w/ the later aforementioned Tara/Oz whispering scene.



To me, this says that Willow intuited that there was something she didn't know about Tara---something that Tara was keeping from her---but at the same time, she knew that it didn't affect the core of who Tara was (her "true name"). In other words, Willow trusted Tara's being, she just didn't trust (per the T/O scene) Tara's loving (Willow).



Re: "Tough Love". As much as I hate to say this (internalized misogyny?), I really can't help but wonder if both Willow and Tara were suffering from a truly awful bout of PMS in their argument scene (Willow especially).* They both just seem to fly off the handle at each other, twisting the other's words in a paranoid fashion. Tara definitely was trying to back down, at first, but then sinks to Willow's level of pettiness w/ her "Should I?" (doubt your commitment to your-sexuality-in-this-relationship) snark-question. But Willow's storming out is the worst (if I were Tara, I would have blocked the door: "We're hashing this out now, Sweetie!").



Willow's TL Vengeance Trip: this hasn't been mentioned either, but I wonder if homophobia played a (small) role in this. If Tara were male (and moreso if Willow had been Tara's legal spouse), would the hospital still have separated them? Because that---the enforced separation---was *critical* to Willow's decision to go "pay-backy." Willow never would have left Tara's side, if given the option. (So, if not homophobia, blame poor hospital administration! Seriously, isn't the standard of mental illness commitment "threat to self or others"? Failing that---and I don't think her broken hand kept her in the hospital---shouldn't they have released Tara to her, well, family?)



I really like this thread, w/ one caveat: could we try to keep "alternate plots/eps/seasons" to a minimum? All through BTVS, there are things we would have done differently, and each of us in a different way, in a different place. Which is why I would really like to stick to What Is on this thread (up to and no further than "That's the best part" of course).



GG Now realizing that my "I would have blocked the door" comment violated my own request! Out



*I've never been blessed to live in proximity to a girlfriend (alas!), but I believe it's biologically reasonable to think that two women as close as W&T would cycle (in the menstrual way) together.

[DarkRed]

I agree with LostWithoutTara, tara and giles were both the 'adults' among the scoobies.

notice that both did have a dark past!!! giles as 'Ripper' and tara after her mother died (she said it herself - that she understands buffy cuz she did some stupid stuff after her mother died - in Intervention i think.. the ep with the boffybot..). They both have already been faced with difficult situations and delt with them, just like the rest of the scoobies had to. the difference is that Tara & Giles are already past that 'phase' in their lives and the scoobies are only now entering that phase.

plus, the fact that Tara had such a hard childhood (with her fucked-up family) is what brought her to be such an amazing, stable, mature... adult.



it's just like in reality. you have ppl who grow up early due to circumstances, and those who never grow up so i think that Joss has done this little thing right.



and btw, guessing and offering elternate ways to the series is really fun and sometimes even important related to the main theme here.. so i think we should continue with it!



anne

Quote:

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"That old saying, how you always hurt the one you love, well, it works both ways."

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[darkmagicwillow]

GG, I'm not sure why you want to restrict what others discuss here. If you're not interested in some topics, you can just not read them. If you want more topics you are interested in, you can make interesting posts to get people to discuss the things you're focused on. There are plenty of alternatives (*G*) to enforcing a rule on other posters.



As for me, like DarkRed, I find alternatives to what happened to be very informative about the importance of what did happen. I don't think you can know the importance of an event until you know the alternatives to it.



For example, I think the fact that Tara and Willow faced very different situations undermines the common assumption that Tara is a more ethical person than Willow. The conclusion is no longer obvious once we realize that fact, but we can still think about its veracity through the examination of other possible situations that Tara might have confronted, such as the ones Garner brought up.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/3/03 6:31:31 am

[LostWithoutTara]

The alternate options are important, so they're welcome on this thread.



Actually, I'm considering doing a thread solely on alternates where all kittens can say what they would like to have seen in S6 and subsequently S7 and then we could have a go at rewriting some episodes, not in a fanfic way, but as scripts. It'd be really hard work, but could turn out brilliantly

[darkmagicwillow]

LostWithoutTara, I agree that it would've been terrible to see Tara written as out of character as the others in s6. I'm not sure what you mean about Willow never being addicted, despite her saying that she was (and wasn't that dialog bad?), though the whole idea is problematic. Assuming that it was a possibility, Giles should have mentioned it to her. He was always saying there could be dire consequences, but he never said what they were. Sure, Willow messes up spells when the story calls for magickal wackiness, but these consequences seem to be different than miscasting yet are completely nebulous until magic is suddenly addictive in s6.



I don't blame the Scoobies too much for not thinking of Heaven, as the Buffyverse seems rather Lovecraftian to me, with no powers of good looking out for the good guys before or after death. However, I can't believe that no one thought to dig up the coffin.



I like your new thread idea. I was watching Bargaining again recently, and I'd start changing s6 after the first half hour of Bargaining, just before the corny demon bikers appear.



Sam, I just saw your post--I must've missed it as we posted at about the same time. I agree that Tara caring for Willow would've been a nice parallel to Willow caring for Tara after TL; something should've come from that story anyway. I also agree that the core Scoobies are very safe, and that Joss' "surprise Scooby deaths" are anything but.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/3/03 11:33:42 am

[DarkRed]

OMG!! a whole new thread discussing alternate S6 & S7 would be a great idea.

i have so many theories and 'what ifs' that my brain (considering i have one) could explode. i'd love to put them down and out off my head for once, so go ahead!



i think that just like buffy was too troubled with her own issues so was Giles -with buffy's issue- and cuz of that didn't have time to really relate to or do something about willow's growing usage of magic. only xander and anya noticed something but i think that cuz they don't really understand the nature of magic they did not understand the severness of the situation.



so.. how about that S6 analysis?? just kidding



anne.

Quote:

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"This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time"

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[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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Actually, I'm considering doing a thread solely on alternates where all kittens can say what they would like to have seen in S6 and subsequently S7 and then we could have a go at rewriting some episodes

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This would be great, LWT, and I would happily participate. It's just that the above seems (to me) to be substantially different than this thread's mission statement:

Quote:

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The purpose of this thread will be to discuss Willow and Tara’s relationship throughout its duration on Buffy, from 4.10 ‘Hush’ to 6.19 ‘Seeing Red’.

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I saw that as meaning we discuss (or "analyse" as per the thread header) what was actually shown of their relationship in the eps, and what we reasonably could (try to) determine happened between the eps (but consistent w/ what was shown).



Look, this isn't a big deal, and my bad if it seemed like I was acting as thread mod. It just makes sense to me that analysing "what was" belongs on one thread and hypothesizing "what could have been" (and why it could have been better than what was) belongs on another (the more threads, the merrier). Or else just drop the given thread raison d'etre for the new one.



GG Just looking for consistency---y'know, that art that ME lost a year or more ago Out

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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Actually, I'm considering doing a thread solely on alternates where all kittens can say what they would like to have seen in S6 and subsequently S7 and then we could have a go at rewriting some episodes, not in a fanfic way, but as scripts. It'd be really hard work, but could turn out brilliantly

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That would venture into the creative realms and belong on the Pens, whether it is fic or written in script format, that is the place where WT creative efforts belong and where Tara is alive and with Willow in hundreds of different ways (and I don't just mean naughty ways, I can see some of you going , or maybe it is just me, heh). Script rewriting is only an option if you would write scripts that center around WT the majority of the time and the remains would have to be a complete rewrite as well. S7 is off topic everywhere on the board.



I understand Gatito's point, but seeing as LostWithoutTara doesn't mind "what if" theories in itself are ok, speculation is a natural part of many discussions and there are many "what if's" from Hush till SR, as long as it does not lead to any post SR discussion and as long as it stays focussed around WT it is ok.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 5/4/03 12:35:38 am

[LostWithoutTara]

darkmagicwillow - Sorry, I know that in S6 Willow did indeed get addicted, but I kinda refuse to accept that. I look at it as she was willing to abuse her power to get high and subsequently realised how out of control she was when she hurt Dawn. Perhaps saying that she was addicted was her way of making herself feel better. I know that doesn't explain the resulting actions in Season 6, but no amount of explanation by the writers will ever convince me that she 'had' to do magic.



DarkRed - I'll try and do some S6 analysis as soon as possible.



DrG - Thank you for the clarification. I'll post the thread on Pens soon. However, one aspect I'm still not sure of. If we were to collectively rewrite S6 including Seeing Red so that Tara and Willow were together and happy, would it be acceptable to go beyond this point and construct a brand new S7 with W/T together as a couple?



- I'm going to put the thread up in Pens as 'Season Six - A Kitten Rewrite'. Is it okay to put kitten discussion there or should that go here with the actual rewrites going up on Pens?

Edited by: LostWithoutTara at: 5/4/03 4:22:02 am

[darkmagicwillow]

I understand about not accepting the addiction story arc, as it made absolutely no sense given the history of the characters and setting/metaphysics of the Buffyverse. I liked how Tulipp subverted the addiction idea as a perception of Willow's, in a way similar to what you suggest, in her fic Terra Firma.



Discussion is fine on a Pens thread as long as it's relevant to the story.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[daddykat]

Garner; the hammer hurting Glory but not killing Xnader is another of the show's classic does-not-follows, in htis case a totally ridiculous one. (Unless the hammer has 3 operation modes; 1-mortal, 2-demon, 3-god, and 3 effects modes A-stun B-break C-shatter, and Olaf had it set on 1-A but Buffy pushed it to 3-C.)



LostwithoutTara; yes, Tara and Giles were the real adults and that would have been lost in a storyline w Tara exploring issues. So it would have just made everything worse for us to watch, I agree. But, in all fairness, she deserved her own chance at being fallible and having to "be there" for the others and get so little back eventually would have been very draining.



darkmagicwillow; In "The Zeppo" Jack didn't have to dig up his brother, who dug otu on his own. In "Forever", a more powerful spell was used and the Joyce-that-was rose without even disturbing the earth of the grave. The spell in "bargaining" was far more powerful than even that, so no digging up would have been needed if Willow and the gang ha dbeen able to finish it.

[LostWithoutTara]

Quick note to say that the rewrite thread is up on Pens. Let the discussion and rewrite begin!!!

[Gatito Grande]

Well, since I said

Quote:

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what we reasonably could (try to) determine happened between the eps (but consistent w/ what was shown)

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there's a gap I wanna play with. It's always kinda bothered me that in Buffy vs. Dracula (Ep. 5.1), Joyce was completely in the dark (to put it kindly!) about the nature of Willow and Tara's relationship, and then in Real Me (Ep. 5.2), Dawn inadvertently reveals that Joyce knows the score (and apparently responded somewhat 'phobically, at least where Dawn is concerned).



OK, here's my take. After W&T did the barrier spell in B vs. D and Joyce displayed her cluelessness: Joyce, in gratitude, probably offered food & drink to the grrls, and went off to the kitchen. W&T (but esp. W, having known Joyce for so much longer), probably felt a little mischievous. While they probably wouldn't have smooched smack-dab in front of Joyce, maybe arranging to be "caught in the act" might have been fun?



So that's exactly what happened. Joyce returns from the kitchen to find Willow and Tara in full I-don't-think-they-will-ever-be-concerned-with-meeting-men-nice-or-otherwise liplock (That's the sound of Joyce's chin hitting the floor). Joyce barely having had time to collect herself and squeak out "Uh, girls, here's ice tea, chips and salsa," who should trip on in the door (for the first time, cosmologically, though not in memory) but Lil Dawn?



Dawn is, of course, thrilled to see W&T (she and Joyce probably both met Tara at the start of the summer, which is now at its end), and joins the knoshing crowd (Joyce is probably grateful for Dawn's distraction). It is in this context that Dawnie asks W&T to show her "what they do together" and Joyce (choking on a chip) freaks and sends Dawn upstairs.



I truly believe that Joyce wasn't really homophobic (she certainly became comfortable having W&T around later, as we saw in Blood Ties). She simply, like Buffy before her (and Willow probably assumed that this apple didn't fall far from the tree, which is why she trusted Joyce in the first place), had a momentary wiggins.



OK, I'm seeing a slight problem w/ the above scenario: Dawn greets Willow and Tara in Real Me as if she hadn't seen them in awhile (not the immediacy w/ which the time of RM followed B vs. D). So maybe Dawn didn't see W&T at Casa Summers, but arrived home right after they left. It must have been *really* soon thereafter, before Joyce had had time to process her new POV on W&T.



Whaddy'all think?



GG Really having fun imagining Willow doing her "Vixen!" thing in convincing Tara to kiss just in time for Joyce to catch 'em! Out