‘My Girl’ – A Detailed Analysis of Willow and Tara's r'ship

[Gatito Grande]

LWT, I agree w/ you: that's all Willow would initiate w/ Tara, in her condition.



But what if Tara initiated something more? To me, that's the interesting part of the situation: how would Willow respond to Tara's possibly-not-fully-sentient sexual expression?



Would to do so (on Willow's part) be like engaging a delusion (as mental health professionals are cautioned not to)? Or would it be, to quote the estimable Marvin Gaye, "sexual healing" (for Tara and Willow both)?



Again, we have to remember that Tara's condition cannot be considered identical to anything in the textbooks. Could she have been lucid for sustained periods (would it matter)?



It's true that there may have been no time for any of this: Willow may have barely had time to feed, medicate, clothe, put to bed (etc. etc., as Tara's impairment warranted) Tara, while at the same time doing everything she could to figure out a way to reverse Tara's injury (and help Buffy take out the bitch that did it). Thus, Willow may have been reduced to a "Not tonight, Tara" regardless.



But it's the possibility that making love ---in as much as Tara wanted to, and could---might have real remedial effects for Tara, and that Willow could have intuited this, which makes the question a worthwhile ponder. IMHO.



GG A Shout Out to the Kitten who sent me a link to the relevent story "Pretty Fox" (you know who you are) Out

[xita]

Hmm, no that scenario still doesn't strike me as possible. Tara seemed very child like and well irrational. Willow certainly seemed to indicate that nights were rough enough to possibly require restraints. In this case Tara could no more make love than a child. In fact she didn't seem to initiate anything, even comfort which seemed to come from Willow to her. I am not sure why you find this scenario interesting or even possible.

[Hemiola]

To me, the best summation of the nature of the "post-brain-suck" relationship between Willow and Tara is in "Weight of the World" (V/21):



Before Willow undertakes to enter Buffy's mind, she leaves Tara in the care of Anya. All one has to do is listen to Tara's heartbreaking "whimper" and see the way she pathetically reaches her hand out to the departing Willow to understand how much of a comfort Willow's mere presence provided for her (and, BTW, get a fantastic demonstration of AB's insight into a difficult role).



Damn, I'm tearing up even now just thinking about it....

[kbk3022]

It was clear on the show that the relationship between Willow and brainsucked Tara was a nurturing one. Willow cared for her like a mother would. Tara was very child-like in her behavior, she had to be fed, she had to be watched at all times. I don't think Tara could ever initiate something sexual while in this state. And I find it very hard to believe that Willow would be sexual with a brainsucked Tara, ever. She would love her and take care of her for as long as it took, but I don't ever believe she would have been sexual with her in that state.



And besides, this all took place at the end of the season. The timeline of the last few episodes was 1 day, wasn't it? This means that the brainsucked Tara only lasted for 2-3 days at most, all the while with the other scoobies running from Glory. I'm sure this thought never even entered Willow's mind during this time, just as it never entered mine before you posted this.

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which makes the question a worthwhile ponder. IMHO

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I found this "ponder" rather disturbing. IMHO.

[unionjill30]

I'm going to have to agree with Kasey and Xita on this one. Tara wasn't capable of anything sexual, and I don't think Willow would have instigated anything. The whole idea has a sort of, as Kasey said, disturbing quality about it, not to mention it being slightly icky. Personally, I don't even want to begin thinking about that possibility.



Sarah

I’d bid too high on The Price Is Right, and I’d sweat to the oldies all night. I’d be depressed like Morrissey and slayed by Buffy every week. I would do anything for you.
Wait… no… scratch that last one. Nobody’s worth the part about Buffy. Not even you. Sorry.

[urnofosiris]

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Again, we have to remember that Tara's condition cannot be considered identical to anything in the textbooks. Could she have been lucid for sustained periods (would it matter)?

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I did read a fic at the time where Tara was herself for a few minutes and they shared a romantic moment, but as soon as her lucidity passed so did the moment. That was just a fic, I don't believe that Tara would be capable of moments like that after what Glory did. I liked the fic though, it was well written and it showed the love and longing that both felt, but there was a clear distinction between a brainsucked Tara and a Tara who knew who she was. That does matter I think.



Back to the canon, even if the story had not taken place in the space of a few days and her condition would have lasted longer I cannot see a brainsucked Tara reach out to Willow like that, and even if she did, I can't believe Willow would reciprocate. Just seeing how lovingly Willow cared for Tara and how -like Hemiola pointed out- Tara still needed Willow close was a wonderful way to show how deep their love really is. We joked at the time about some of the clinging Tara did, but it never really crossed my mind whether they might be having sex. I am very glad that show did not hint at anything really sexual between them. I really would not have appreciated any sexual innuendo or acts while one of them was not in control of their mind. It conjurs up some negative associations.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 5/25/03 2:40:00 am

[daddykat]

Garner; been away for a while but when you said that we found out that Tara WAS really expendable, you were "quasi-wrong"; Dr. Pinocchio and His Bunche may have thought that,and acted on their thgoughts, but everything has been just more and more out of whack ever since. I only play at writing, but even I know about fictional characters taking on their own life. And I just LOVE it when the biter gets bitten, at least in cases where the biter is actually guilty, which this was.

[darkmagicwillow]

If you'd enjoy more sarcasm on Wrecked, here are some choice quotes from Boils&Blinding Torment's recap. Here are a few quotes:

Marti wakes up one morning and realizes that since she's pretty much in charge of a TV show, she can fulfill her life's dream of writing After School Specials! She always loved those things. How they would beat you repeatedly over the head with a Life Lesson. How the main characters plummeted unrealistically to the very depths of despair faster than a Mafia informant with cement boots thrown into the Hudson river.



Willow: I'm going to get some sleep too. Being in an episode of Sabrina the Teenage Witch so Melissa Joan Hart could go off to Cancun for a few days takes a lot out of a girl. You might say that I'm WRECKED.



Willow: Damn that Melissa Joan Hart for making me use up all my magic for her crappy show about snapping your fingers and putting people in cages and stuff. I'm glad we don't do lame stuff like that on my show.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[LostWithoutTara]

Hee! That was really funny. I hadn't read that before. It seems my thoughts on the episode were very similar to theirs.

[DarkRed]

i read the whole thing and it is very funny ideed the site has now joined my Favorites list, it is one hell of a site!

thanks for bringing it to notice darkmagicwillow .

[Garner]

I also have been gone a while. Daddykat, you raise some interesting points. I definitely agree that characters can take on a life of their own and go in directions the writers never intend and maybe become more, or less, important than originally intended. Tara certainly was a character that grew and was a vital part of the show and without doubt was very important as a social statement. That's one of the reasons I think her death was such an outrage. She is not replacable easily, certainly wasn't replaced, and was too valuable to have eliminated from the show.

On the other hand, the show was out of whack even when Tara was there in season sux. I tend to think the writers were tapped out, and couldn't have written anything engaging whatsoever. Season severed certainly bit as well and was pretty much all hackwork with little merit. It was more out of whack than season sux, and part of that was Tara's absence, but a lot was just plain crappy writing.

Was Tara expendable? Of course not. She was a vital part of the group and the show that should have remained there, and who had a lot of unexplored directions to go, even with the events in season sux having occurred. But the sad truth is she was expendable to Josswad and Mutant Enema. They could have done more with her, but didn't. She grew, but her role last season was restricted. After leaving Willow she dropped off the face of the earth for the most part until it was time to bring her back only so that her loss could send Willow over the edge. The sad thing is that ME et al never realized what is was they had and how much they were throwing away. Tara had grown to be more important on any number of levels, but Josswad never saw that and so we got the crap that we got.



Garner

[WillowMcclay6]

I really do stand by my opinion that Oz and Willow had a loving, careing relationship. I never thought that Willow stuck by him because of a "desire to be cool." I always thought that Oz was a great guy.



Hmm about the whole physical aspect of their relationship (everyone seems to have their opinions so heres mine) I thought they had their first sexual encounter after New Moon Rising. : rugs::



I really liked what you said here:



Each Buffy Season has a mission statement. Season Four was about choosing between your past and your future. Do you choose to cling to what you have today or embrace what might be?



It's very true and I never looked at it from that point of veiw before. That was very cool and applaud you much.

[LostWithoutTara]

Hi WillowMcclay6!



Thanks for the compliment.



As to Willow and Oz, I agree that they did have a very loving, caring relationship, but Willow's coolness desire did play a part of it. Certainly not a huge part, but it was there nonetheless.



I think that once Willow was immersed in the college environment she really blossomed, and no longer felt the need to be cool.



Interestingly, the Oz/Willow/Veruca triangle was supposed to cover the entire season. It would have been interesting to see this, especially if Willow met Tara and fell in love with her while she and Oz were still together (and it would've produced lots of the angst ME seems to love).



Finally, as a general thing, I will update here soon. I know it's been a while (bad me ) but my burning desire not to fail all my exams means I can't devote as much time to it.

[darkmagicwillow]

Here's a simple layout of the roles each character took for the show. Angel, Spike, and Willow were also took the role of antagonist during some episodes, but the roles below are long term ones. Of course, there are many aspects to each each character which aren't part of the role they play in the story, and these are actually more important to how the viewer responds to the character, but my thesis is about the writers and it's this: the fewer unique roles that one has, the more likely the character is to be written off the show.



It's interesting to note the parallels between Jenny's and Tara's roles, though I can't explain the persistence of Dawn after The Gift.



Of course, it's beyond my theory to explain why characters are kept who are poor choices for their roles or who aren't given a story that fits their role, such as Anya as comic relief (the bunny thing was funny once, maybe twice) and Spike as vampire/SO. Meanwhile, other characters who are great for their roles, like Tara, are virtually ignored because other characters have the same role.



I think one of the most important failures in later seasons of BtVS was to limit characters to these roles. Oz may have just been an SO as far as the story went, but as a musician, he was connected to minor characters and had a place in the world. The same is true for Cordelia with the Cordettes. However, Anya and Tara are limited almost exclusively to their roles. Tara should have had friends on campus, from the Wicca group, the GLBT group, or from her dorm or classes.



Buffy: protagonist



Willow: best friend, witch, hacker, smart person



Xander: ordinary guy, comic relief



Giles: parent, smart person



Joyce: parent



Angel: vampire, protagonist's SO



Riley: protagonist's SO



Spike: vampire, protagonist's SO



Oz: SO



Tara: witch, SO



Jenny: witch, SO



Cordelia: comic relief, SO



Anya: comic relief, SO



Dawn: maguffin for season 5

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Tarathewitch]

I love analysis. I'm French and I'm writing myself an analysis of Willow & Tara's relationship and love. Yours is very interesting, great job.



I'm new and I'm French then sorry for my grammar faults, I'll do my best , I'm glad to take part of this forum, it's the most complete place to find all things about Willow and Tara . I just love them so much. Especially Willow but their love is so.....is so.....is so !



Bye

Tarathewitch

[DarkRed]

Welcome to the lovely kitten's family Tarathewitch i'm sure you'll love it here. it's the biggest and best source for all your needs!

don't worry about your grammar, many kittens come from all around the world, i myself am from Israel, so English can be a problem to most of us (i'm carrying my dictionary all the time and still manage to make plenty of mistakes )



anne.



~~~~~~~

In this proud land we grew up strong, we were wanted all along. I was taught to fight taught to win.. i never thought i could fail.

[LostWithoutTara]

Hey Tarathewitch!



Glad you're enjoying the analysis. Don't worry about grammar or stuff, yours is very good. Besides, my English grammar is still pretty wonky and I'm English! Oh well...

[3peanuts]

Just wanted to say that...great great great work. Kisses.

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[darkmagicwillow]

I started thinking about Tough Love and how it might be related to their other arguments after discussion on a fic thread in Pens and decided to post it over here where we could talk more generally.



Willow and Tara experienced three major conflicts during their relationship on the show. The first was during Family when Tara cast a mind-altering spell on Willow (and the other Scoobies) to prevent her from perceiving demons, nearly getting them killed, which was resolved by Willow forgiving and accepting Tara, whether or not she was a demon. The second was during Tough Love, when Tara shows doubts about Willow's orientation and magic, which is resolved when Willow leaves and Tara is attacked by Glory's mind-altering touch. The third is actually a series of arguments about Willow's magic use, resulting in Willow casting two mind-altering spells on Tara to make her forget and Tara leaving. A final resolution to the argument comes when Tara accepts Willow again in Entropy.



What are Willow and Tara so insecure about that they can't argue with each other without casting a spell or leaving? Why can't they resolve an argument with something more than blind acceptance that leaves the causes of dissent unexamined? Tara's speech at the end of Entropy is beautiful, but she's right that they'll have to do something to build trust back up again--is anything resolved at that point? The same question can be asked about Family.



I love Willow's acceptance and love for Tara at the end of Family, but I also wonder if learning that Tara had been deceiving her for a year might have caused some of the resentment that came up in Tough Love? Perhaps Willow wasn't just upset about Tara's being a Big Knowledge Woman with respect to Buffy but also with respect to Tara herself in the past. Given that Willow has so many reasons to be insecure about her relationship (it's her first same sex romance, Oz betrayed her, and Tara deceived her until Family), why is Tara the one who expresses her insecurity (about Willow's magickal power and sexual orientation) in Tough Love?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/8/03 5:37 pm

[tommo]

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What are Willow and Tara so insecure about that they can't argue with each other without casting a spell or leaving? Why can't they resolve an argument with something more than blind acceptance that leaves the causes of dissent unexamined? Tara's speech at the end of Entropy is beautiful, but she's right that they'll have to do something to build trust back up again--is anything resolved at that point?

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Someone made the comment to me the other day that Willow and Tara's relationship was played out in a real "storybook" fashion. By that I mean in terms of presenting an entirely romantic relationship to the viewers. And that's how I think Willow and Tara's problems were resolved. Of course, this was entirely overthrown by the end of Season 6, but, originally and progressively, Willow and Tara stood as perhaps the most romantic couple since Buffy and Angel.



I think it's a really important point you make there, DMW, especially in light of the fact that we never got to see how Willow and Tara did build up trust again after Tara's speech in Entropy. I think that the blind acceptance you talk about is probably attributed, in part, to the strength of the emotion that they felt for one another. To me, Tara's speech conveyed the notion that the love was almost overpowering, in a way, and cast aside rationality. What she was saying was very true; they did need to build up trust again, but even something as important as that paled in light of the strength of their emotions for one another.



I think that we were lucky to see a tiny resolution beginning at the start of Seeing Red, in that they were finally having a conversation and being honest with one another. I'd have liked to have seen that continued (of course, we didn't) because I think that Tara's speech in Entropy marked an important point of reality for them and their relationship. Mainly because I think it was a point where they both acknowledged problems, or points of disagreement, or even points for them to work upon, and it introduced a note of relationship reality into the way they talked and felt about one another. Although, heh, that was cast aside by Tara in the wake of her feelings and desire for Willow.

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I love Willow's acceptance and love for Tara at the end of Family, but I also wonder if learning that Tara had been deceiving her for a year might have caused some of the resentment that came up in Tough Love? Perhaps Willow wasn't just upset about Tara's being a Big Knowledge Woman with respect to Buffy but also with respect to Tara herself in the past. Given that Willow has so many reasons to be insecure about her relationship (it's her first same sex romance, Oz betrayed her, and Tara deceived her until Family), why is Tara the one who expresses her insecurity (about Willow's magickal power and sexual orientation) in Tough Love?

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I think the argument in Tough Love was amazing, mainly because it started to uncover some interesting issues for both girls. You mention Family, and, again, I think that was a point at the relationship where we saw Willow acknowledge her lover's failings, and certainly see issues that they may have to address, but also, in this episode, we were reminded that "true love" conquers all, and allows one person in a relationship to be forgiving and let their lover off the hook, so to speak. That certainly appears to be a recurring theme in the way they relate to one another, and underlines this great passion that they share, even to the point where you might rightly attribute the notion of them being soulmates to a situation like this one.



However, having said that, Tough Love was probably another big turning point in their relationship. It was here where they didn't reach a quick solution where one person went forward in blind acceptance. And I think that's one of the most impressive things about the argument itself. Here, we get to the heart of how Tara must feel, being a gay woman in a relationship with someone who was, to all intents and purposes, straight before she met Tara. Now don't all jump on me; I believe that Willow is gay, was gay, will always be gay...okay? That's me speaking for the record there. But in this argument, it beautifully bought into all of Tara's insecurities. I think she must have felt some amazing responsibility for opening up Willow's sphere of experience, not only in terms of using magic, but also sexually. I think that responsibility weighed heavily on her here, which is why she expressed herself from a place that was fraught with her own feelings, not only about herself, but also about her relationship with Willow.



To me, it was right and fitting that Tara was so afraid here, and I think it was fear that made her so suspicious of where the relationship might lead. In a way, I think it was fear of losing that relationship that prompted her speech in Entropy, too.



And um, I've rambled a lot. Okay.

"Cheese falls apart. It crumbles apart so much. You can't ever put it back the way it was. I'm sorry, it's just...you know, it takes time to eat Cheshire cheese. You can't just go for coffee and crackers and expect cheesey goodness..." ~ Cheesetropy

[darkmagicwillow]

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right that theirs was a storybook romance, and that's part of what I love about them. I found it especially touching because I'd been watching and identifying with Willow for three and half years, seeing her want Xander but knowing he wasn't good enough for her and feeling happy that she finally got somebody better in Oz only to see all the pain when she lost him. Then there was Tara...

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To me, Tara's speech conveyed the notion that the love was almost overpowering, in a way, and cast aside rationality.

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Yes, that's definitely how it felt watching that scene, and it is a beautiful sentiment. I think, as you suggest, that her speech also marked a recognition of their mutual issues, and could have led to a relationship that was based on overpowering, storybook love and an acceptance of each other as real, flawed human beings. There was so much story left to be told and I'm frustrated that we didn't get it, especially in light of the hackneyed, oversimplistic drivel we did get afterwards.

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But in this [Tough Love] argument, it beautifully bought into all of Tara's insecurities. I think she must have felt some amazing responsibility for opening up Willow's sphere of experience, not only in terms of using magic, but also sexually.

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This is a good point about Willow's first same sex relationship being frightening to Tara as well as Willow, worrying that Willow might just be experimenting or be so afraid of coming out to her friends and family (we never see Willow tell her parents) that she'd reject Tara even if she was sure of her orientation.



While we don't know whether Tara has had previous relationships, she could be insecure either if she had (having had a bad experience or two) or hadn't (being afraid of her own inexperience, especially with Willow looking to her for guidance). She might also be afraid of Willow comparing her with Oz.



I'm less certain about Tara opening up Willow to the magic, as both of them have knowledge and experience to offer the other as they talked about in Hush, with Tara having her long taught experience with her mother and Willow having her hard won experience fighting evil on the Hellmouth. I don't see either of them as having the right approach, as Tara's may be great for everyday life, it can't deal with the strength of the evil of the Hellmouth, and Willow's is too ungrounded in theory, focusing too much on immediate needs and fixes. Their approaches could have been complementary, and I see them that way at first in season 4.



However, perhaps Tara is afraid both because Willow's approach is different and because it seems to be working better when we see how Willow tinkers with the tiny tinkerbell light. We don't know where Tara started from, so it's difficult to see how she grew in magic from her association with Willow, but whether or not she did, and I expect her magical power did grow along as her confidence grew, Willow's power grows much faster than hers. There might be another point of insecurity for Tara--Oz is described, despite his slacker tendencies of skipping classes and graduating late, as being brilliant, like Willow, while Tara isn't.



Am I rambling yet? (-;



Returning to Entropy, I can see how Tara's fear that she may have waited too long, especially after saving Willow from Buffy in Normal Again, brought her back to Willow, having faith that love would bring them through all the problems she mentions but doesn't address there. That is a beautiful leap of trust, and one that I think would have been fulfilled given time.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/10/03 12:44 pm

[Garner]

DMW and Ruth have both raised some interesting points. I have always said that W/T were a romance affair and that is part of what colored the way they related. The other thing to keep in mind is that they were also essentially background characters and thus not given the screen time to develop more completely. We SHOULD have seen Willow coming out to her parents, we should have seen them interact with non-scoobies and we probably should have seen them learning to live with each other. But all that was outside the scope of the show.



The point about Willow forgiving Tara after Family is very interesting. Everyone keeps some things from their partner, but Willow seems to get past, not being lied to, but not being told the full truth, as Tara saw it at least. I always wondered if after Family the two of them didn't talk a bit more about their families, past, and all that. I sort of thought of that as a point when they may have gotten a lot closer.



I always thought the argument in Tough Love was a bit off. Neither was really listening to the other. It's Willow who raises the question of whether Tara is worried about Willow just experimenting. It seemed like Tara wasn't going anywhere near that line of thought until Willow brought it up. So maybe Willow was having some doubts herself? Maybe it was just a somewhat poorly written argument scene for the purpose of splitting them up, allowing Glory to mindsuck Tara while Willow isn't there, and to make the pain of Tara being made a vegatable that much greater since the last thing they did together was argue. To me it just didn't seem like a natural argument at that point in their relationship. Not that it was entirely unreasonable, the magic worries especially seem appropriate even ignoring the crap that is coming in S6. But we know so little of Tara's background, what she does in the eps when she's not present, that it is really hard to get a good sense on Tara's whole life. Her role as Willow's SO seems to be the main thing they show us, and little else. That always bugged me, but again, it is a large cast of characters. To an extent it reminds me of the debate on when W/T first made love. We have no firm idea really. We have no idea when the first kiss came, or for that matter who made the first move. We can speculate, but obviously we all don't agree. There are many ways any of this could have happened. Being cynical at the moment I tend to think that Joss and the writers never knew or cared about any of this. They used Tara as a prop to advance Willow's story, and had her do whatever they thought was necessary to get that story across, no matter how much sense it did or didn't make for Tara's character.



Well, how's that for rambling. All I know is that on watching Family again this Monday, since it was on FX, it still seems to me that W/T were the couple that was supposed to be founded on true love, trust and companionship. Buffy/Riley were all about the physical, and X/A were both physical and sort of the best either could get, convienent for each other. Whether that was intended or not is hard to say.



Garner

[The Rose24]

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There might be another point of insecurity for Tara--Oz is described as, despite his slacker tendencies of skipping classes and graduating late, as being brilliant, like Willow, while Tara isn't.

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I am going to have to take issue with this quote. Are you saying you don't think Tara is as brilliant as Willow? Tara has always come off as extremely intelligent. No, Tara isn't a computer whiz like Willow, but she has A LOT of book sense.

Even Glory comments on Tara's mind after she brain sucks Tara. It goes something like this:



Glory: I 'm still a little buzzed from eating that witch. What a mind she had. A nummy treat.



I am positive Willow feels Tara's mind is her most precious asset. Re: Willow's anger at Glory for Violating Tara's mind.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[darkmagicwillow]

While intelligence is regularly illustrated as one of Willow's strongest characteristics, with her intense focus on academics (including precociously teaching a class while in high school), computers, research, spells, and making plans for the group (like the one to deal with Eyghon which was brilliant), we don't see that focus for Tara. We do see her help with research and spells at Willow's behest, but that doesn't compare for what we see with Willow even accounting for Tara having much less screen time.



I don't see the Glory quote or Willow's anger with the attack having anything to do with Tara's intelligence. I took Glory's quote to refer to Tara's magic, but my second guess would be that it referred to her emotional abuse at the hands of her family as that seems something that Glory, who as Buffy pointed out is not the brightest god in the heavens, would appreciate more than intelligence. Willow's upset because Tara's lost her identity, her sense of self and ability to deal with the world, not because Tara's not likely to do well in her classes for the rest of the term.



I'm not saying that I don't think that Tara is smart, and indeed, I expect that she's a much better student than any of the other Scoobies. However, we simply aren't shown that she has the same type of brilliance that Willow possesses, and so I don't conclude that she (or any of the other Scoobies, despite the pride Willow expresses in Oz' SAT scores) has that.



Each of the Scoobies has their own strength, ranging from Giles's mature wisdom and deep knowledge to Buffy's ability to think on the fly as she fights. Tara's is her deep intuition about feeling and emotion, which differs from Willow's impetuous brilliance, allowing them to complement each other. That's part of what makes their relationship so good.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[tommo]

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The point about Willow forgiving Tara after Family is very interesting. Everyone keeps some things from their partner, but Willow seems to get past, not being lied to, but not being told the full truth, as Tara saw it at least. I always wondered if after Family the two of them didn't talk a bit more about their families, past, and all that. I sort of thought of that as a point when they may have gotten a lot closer.

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I always interpreted it as such, garner. The scene at the end where Willow seems utterly bemused as to why Tara didn't feel she could tell her about her family just indicated the increasing levels of trust and confidence in their relationship thus far. I think perhaps Willow didn't appear to mind so much because she clearly thought it wasn't anything that would affect her relationship with Tara; certainly it wasn't going to affect the way she felt about her. For Tara, it was a deciding factor.



I'm sure that this was a point from which they both moved forward in a great appreciation of the gravity and depth of their feelings for one another. Which is why, again Tough Love appear problematic. If they had found this newness of sharing confidences, then I'm starting to wonder why the subject of Willow's gayness never came up between them. It remains something, for me at least, that seems like a perfectly normal conversation for them to have, given Tara's insecurity about losing Willow, and Willow's insecurity about proving herself to Tara.



The line from Family: "I trusted you more than anyone my whole life" (and I know I'm probably paraphrasing here but I'm too lazy to go and look it up, heh) certainly indicated the kind of relationship where Willow might have brought these concerns to Tara before now, or vice versa.

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They used Tara as a prop to advance Willow's story, and had her do whatever they thought was necessary to get that story across, no matter how much sense it did or didn't make for Tara's character.

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Yes they did, but they were doing that since Season 4. Willow's arc was to save her lover from the mindsuck by advancing her powers, the legacy of which played out in later seasons. But you know, if they were going to have Willow bring up difficulties within the relationship, the least they might have done is to consistently cover some kind of resolution to those issues in later episodes, which never happened. So are we led to believe, then, that Willow never really had the conversation with Tara about her gayness? The pledges that Willow made which seemed, to me, to be her assertion of the depth of her feelings for Tara came at the end of Tough Love. Whilst beautiful and touching, Tara never really heard them. And if she did, chances are she couldn't really understand them. Again, true consideration for the character of Tara wasn't, perhaps, shown as clearly as it could have been here. Some acknowledgement might have been nice.

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I'm not saying that I don't think that Tara is smart, and indeed, I expect that she's a much better student than any of the other Scoobies. However, we simply aren't shown that she has the same type of brilliance that Willow possesses, and so I don't conclude that she (or any of the other Scoobies, despite the pride Willow expresses in Oz' SAT scores) has that.

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I know exactly what you mean, DMW. I don't think we were ever given the opportunity to see Tara being "clever". She was essentially reactive, as opposed to proactive, when it came to Scooby goings on. However, I think we did see traces of her intuitive nature in Season 5, namely in Forever, and in Season 6 in Bargaining, where it's clear that Tara has a much firmer background and understanding of witchcraft than Willow does. But this just highlights the polar natures of their approach to the craft, which in itself might have been a good conversation for them to have. But as you say, it's one of the ways in which they do complement one another, and gives some notion of balance to the relationship.



As a side note, I don't think that Willow would get involved with someone who wasn't, at the very least, her equal in terms of intellectual capacity. Understanding Willow, at least, in my own perception of her character, I've always just assumed that Tara was a brainy type, and had a love of knowledge in the same way that Willow did. Not to the same extent, of course, but perhaps in the same manner.

"Cheese falls apart. It crumbles apart so much. You can't ever put it back the way it was. I'm sorry, it's just...you know, it takes time to eat Cheshire cheese. You can't just go for coffee and crackers and expect cheesey goodness..." ~ Cheesetropy

[Hemiola]

Actually, in terms of "braininess", I always felt that Tara was more of a "humanities" person, with an especial attraction to, say, art and literature (note that it is these classes that she discusses with Buffy in "Life Serial"), while Willow is more of a "science/math" person.

[Gatito Grande]

Garner said:

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The other thing to keep in mind is that they were also essentially background characters and thus not given the screen time to develop more completely. We SHOULD have seen Willow coming out to her parents, we should have seen them interact with non-scoobies and we probably should have seen them learning to live with each other. But all that was outside the scope of the show.

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So very true, especially as ME used their titular character, Buffy, as part of their method of playing out gay issues in metaphor form.



We never saw Willow come to her parents, but we saw *Buffy come out as a slayer* ("I didn't choose to be this way!" or Joyce's "I've tried to march in the Slayer Pride Parade"). We didn't see Riley learn about Tara, but we saw his "wiggins" to learning about Willow and Oz, w/ Buffy (despite her own momentary wiggins to Tara, vis-a-vis "Will") getting to play the superior "see how kewl I've handled it" role.



I kind of have mixed feelings about this. I thought that "Buffy's Coming Out" was a rather brilliant metaphor---and something queer people could identify w/, re: BTVS, well before Willow's evolution. At the same time, to the extent that Willow's coming out was perceived as redundant along these lines, I'm sorry that ME felt that they had already "been there and done that". Willow may have been a secondary character but the social ramifications of Willow coming out as gay would realistically have impacted the Scoobies as a group (to say nothing of Willow as an individual) far more than we were ever shown.



GG Am really loving the discussion of the differing kinds of intelligences between Willow and Tara---anyone want to venture into their "Myers-Briggs" types? Out

[Sheridan]

The last two times there was a crisis in Willow and Tara's relationship it was essentially driven by plot demands rather than any dynamic in their relationship. The exception was Family which was one of the rare occasions when their relationship in itself took centre stage and magic was never more of a metaphor for sex and sexuality than in that story; Mr Maclay's concern that about his daughters 'magic' and his conviction that there was something not right about her. The core was in essence Tara coming out and becoming a part of the gang.

In 'Tough Love' and 'All The Way' the arguments were strictly plot devices which seemed to come out of nowhere. In 'Tough Love' the row was there solely so they could expose Tara to Glory's attack, which in turn lets Glory find out Dawn is the Key and then lead the gang to the big showdown in 'The Gift'.

The argument in 'All The Way' is to my mind even less credible, as are Willow's actions at the end, it is there to justify the whole magic as an addiction idea that that the writers suddenly launched without any preamble. This reduction of Tara to mere plot device by the writers was a hint of what was to come in Seeing Red.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[xita]

The tough love argument for me actually had something interesting that I wish fic writers would follow through on. That was Willow's accusations that Tara was the "big knowledge woman." I think for Willow did feel like the junior partner and that Tara being as good as she was often could leave Willow feeling like "she just didn't know any better." I think that would really upset someone like Willow. Tara wouldn't be coming off from that perspective but she's so wise and lived through so much that all she could do was offer her advice. Certainly she came from a firmer ethical stand point. Willow I think deferred to her on that account many times. This was certainly a valid argument. I would love to see them working through that.

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"I love you all!!! -
bytrsuite

[daddykat]

Don't have a LOT to say about the dynamics of W&T's arguments. Will point out that the writing staff seemed to paly around with things just to get a "good" line. In "all the Way" Willow mentions her geeky past and Tara says "spaz, you?" Now consider how ffar into season 2 it was bfore Willow started really blossoming, and neither she nor any of their other friends ahve ever talked about this in front of Tara ? At this point, it's just hard to believe they wouldn't ahve shared more confidneces about thsoe days. But, the need for a cheap-and-significant line prevails, whetehr in TV or comic books.



As to "braininess" and "types", in my futurefic series "Children of the Dale" I have Willow as president of computer consulting firm and Tara teaching drama in the public school system. Seemed a good choice. (Hey, an executive salary plus civil service bennies, figuring in California by 2026 there aren't any paperwork obstacles, no wonder they're doing well.)