MTV VMAs

[urnofosiris]

Ah well, that settles it then, henceforth I shall endeavor to think the worst of Madonna.

-----------------------------



She's so anally retentive she wouldn't sit down for fear of sucking up the furniture.

--Patsy Stone

[xita]

I wouldn't say madonna doesn't try to push buttons for publicity. I guess I just find that I agree with buttons she's pushing, that I feel they serve a purpose. Certainly she could chose to push buttons in a way I did not agree with and that would bother me a lot more, see eminem , 2livecrew, etc.



The only time I felt let down by her was the recent pulling of her American Life video I think it was called. Even the war atmosphere was a bit too much for her.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[Gatito Grande]

. . . but understandable in light of what happened to the Dixie Chicks (I recently saw the A&E "Biography" of them, and damn if I won't buy *all* their albums when I have money! )



But back to the VMA's: yeah, it's youngster's music. Since I started listening to "Hit List" on my DirecTV, I'm just glad I recognized about half of it!



Re: the Brittany/Christina/MADONNA floorshow: I agree w/ whomever said that the thigh-groping was hotter than the kisses. But what was Missy Elliott's function in that scene? It was kind of jarring that, amidst all this eroticism, Missy was made kind of sexless: either let homegirl play, or let her have a different setting.



Other than citing over-all lameness, no one has mentioned the lowlight of the show: that disgusting "Mother [bleepin'] P-I-M-P" song. I thought that "bitches and ho's" shit was over! (What was worse: Chris Rock righteously dissed the 'pimps'---"Today is the 40th anniversary of the Civil Rights March on Washington: FOR THIS???"---and nobody in the audience got it! Shallow, self-obsessed idiots. )



GG Embarrassed confession: I really like Justin Timberlake . . . and moreover, I thought his shout out to Johnny Cash was classy. Out

[xita]

Quote:

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the Dixie Chicks (I recently saw the A&E "Biography" of them, and damn if I won't buy *all* their albums when I have money!

---

I have since my friend! All the dixies are now mine! I am still in love with their last album though, Home. Hee. But yeah I know what you mean , still if anyone can afford it, it would be madonna.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

Edited by: xita  at: 8/30/03 10:26 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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All the dixies are now mine!

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You wish! (Me too )



But all three seem to be happily married (um, to guys that is), dammit.



GG Out

[Shadow]

I was watching VMAs just cause Avrila and Evanescence presented but once I saw opening act!



First, I couldn't believe Christina and Britney would sing together, then Madonna... but the best part of all that was seeing Justin's face! I thought he was going to faint or leave or something. They already made him uncomfortable with mentioning Punked!



I'm just sorry Kelly Osbourne was so... well Kelly- like, and I didn't get to hear Avril much and I like her.

And I would love to see Evanescence preform...

But this wasn't the best VMA I saw.



Vladimira

Zvjezdano nebo nada mnom i moralni zakon u meni.- Kant

Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker.- Sabriel, Garth Nix

[Willows miss PsychoPepSqu]

That was excellent. Go Brit!

[Vampivy]

Well now, wasn’t that interesting .

About ten minutes before the opening act I got a call from my cousin telling me not to miss the MTV VMA’s opening act and that I should thank her later. Honestly I didn’t know what to expect. Being a huge Madonna fan and my cousin being aware of that I thought, “Ooh how nice, Madonna doing Like A Virgin, again, at the VMA’s”. Lo and behold there’s Britney and then Christina and Madonna and the kiss and then another kiss. I couldn’t help but smile. In my opinion it simply was just a kiss. I didn’t feel like over analyzing it I just wanted to watch it over and over and simply smile. I’ve been taking full advantage of the few things that I find to be pleasant distractions from the anxiety/panic attacks that are trying to invade my world again. I respect everyone’s different opinions regarding the kisses, even though I feel cheated from a full Madonna/Christina kiss, I count that one too. I mean hello why not have the Christina kiss first and then Britney’s and THEN go to Justin’s reaction, which was full of disinterest, and why not, it was just a kiss. To me, two women kissing is one of the most beautiful things to ever witness IF it’s done tastefully of course. If it’s done with true passion, even better. I don’t know, I just thought it was cool and fun to watch.



To quote two of our Mods…

“Warduke: What can I say? Madonna is still the master”

“Xita: Madonna took them to school, here's how you scandalize!”



I couldn’t have said better myself. So my brother and I put this little clip together this past Sunday and I thought I’d share it with you all. The host for this file is Geocities and I don’t know how reliable they are so if anyone else has a more reliable host please feel free to host the video file so everyone here can have a fair chance to download it without all those bandwidth restrictions.



Video file is encoded in DIVX 5.05 Size: 4.10 MB.

Here's another option to download the clip.



Xita I hope you don’t mind the quote on the clip, I just thought it was priceless.



Patty

Edited by: Vampivy at: 9/3/03 12:58 pm

[Urn of Osiris]

So after a few days of conversation about the opening act I finally caught the show. I have to say Britney sounded like an American Juniors cast off but Christina stole the show for me. Not one moment of this song and dance shocked me. What I found fascinating, the stage and costuming. I saw a very visual statement about sexuality and marriage. I saw three woman taking hold of a wedding idol and giving it a new definition. Two gorgeous young adults, representing a mass of teens, wearing their flashy wedding dresses, watched the appropriately tuxedo attired Madonna march down the isle. The wedding cake faded into the background eventually transformed into a wedding chapel where they all gathered to openly verbally protest the definition of "what is mainstream."



I have to say that message came across to me. It was very daring and I'd love to see that get more public support. Having a mouthpiece like Madonna make a display like she did broadcasts that we are normally human beings. Being loved and adored as breathing free thinking, free willed creatures. Love in every form is normal. The rights for one should be the rights for all. I saw a fantastic political statement in that 5 minute stage show.

Urn of Osiris

Peace is not the absence of conflict; it's the absence of inner conflict. Unknown
When we stand up, we are standing up for everybody. Each of us needs to know, in fact, that we are rainbows in the clouds... for everybody. MAYA ANGELOU

[sam7777]

June Leigh: I agree with you completely.

Dekalog: Agreed. I also think Madonna gave us shock value rather than real representation on the screen. Certainly, there is value in shock but I'd rather see more real representation. For me, really pushing the envelope would be to see gay people represented on the screen as they are in real life. The Madonna thing made me sad more than anything else in that coverage of lesbians still seems stuck in the male titillation mode. I used to love this teasing subtexty kind of stuff but W/T raised the bar for me to want more meaty portrayals.



The press has picked up on the MTV VMA kiss:



Yahoo! News Full Coverage-Madonna, Spears, Aguilera Upstage MTV ...



VMA's Madonna-Britney-Christina Kiss: Progress or Publicity Stunt?



When a kiss is but a yawn with a little tongue action



Madonna, Britney, Christina smooch



Kiss and Tell at the MTV Video Music Awards



MTV Awards: A party with a pinch of poignancy - Aug. 29 ...



Madonna Upstages Everyone at MTV Awards



Madonna, Britney, Christina smooch



Like Dekalog says, it's a shame that this is such a big deal. Maybe if there was a btter and more relaistic portrayal of gays on TV, 2 women or 2 men kissing would elicit no more comment than a man and a woman kissing. This is why I want to see more normal gay people showing intimacy ( kissing, holding hands) everywhere like the news, tv series and movies. In the long run, that would make more of a difference IMHO.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 9/2/03 3:25 pm

[seurat]

Allow me to toss my opinion in here too. It seemed to me that the reason this got so much play was not that it was women kissing other women, but that it was Madonna kissing Britney and Christina. No doubt there are still trolls out there who are upset by the kiss itself, but I'm sure the reason it made the front pages here in Canada was the identify of the publicity junkies involved. And while I'd like to believe that Madonna did this to improve tolerance, it's pretty certain that she did it to shift a few more units of the latest cd and the back catalogue as well. And because she loves the attention. Which is fair enough, but I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

As for the show itself, it was remarkably unfunny, boring and pointless. it made the Much Music VA'S look great by comparison, no small feat.

"Always took candy from strangers/ Didn't wanna get me no trade/ Never want to be like Papa/ Working for the boss every night and day. I need a love to keep me happy, baby won't you keep me happy."-Keith Richards

[PunkNerd]

Man you know when society is going down the hole when CBS news has an article on the kiss. tsk tsk. Media nowadays. I thought the opening act was whatever. I liked Coldplay's performance more. And I also liked seeing Justin Timberlake's reaction to the kiss kehehe. But I missed Metallica's performance . How was that?

[xita]

Yeah urn, Britney did not sound good at all, someone tried to tell me that it was because she was trying to sound like Madonna... well i have to say singing like madonna in like a virgin can't be very difficult, madonna has had a lot of vocal training since.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[kajo 2000]

From The Advocate:

Quote:

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Newspaper apologizes for running Madonna-Britney kiss photo

Wednesday, September 03, 2003



Following reader outcry, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution apologized Monday for running a photo of Madonna kissing Britney Spears onstage at the recent MTV Video Music Awards. Managing editor Hank Klibanoff wrote, "We have a high standard of presentation that is in line with community sensibilities, and we have filters that work to maintain those standards. The difficulty comes when news turns ugly, horrid, profane, or provocative in some other way that might offend community sensibilities. During the war in Iraq, it happened a lot.... We ran images we otherwise might not have run. But that was war, and war is news. The photo we ran Friday was neither, and I wish I had limited its display to the inside of the Living section."

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"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

[dekalog]

Never thought I would be posting in this thread a week later - but ahhhh the titilation factor of two girls kissing - who'd thought?



sam said "Madonna thing made me sad more than anything else in that coverage of lesbians still seems stuck in the male titillation mode. I used to love this teasing subtexty kind of stuff but W/T raised the bar for me to want more meaty portrayals"



See for me this representation factor it isn't just about being a lesbian but also about being a woman too. You are so on the mark about lack of representation, but it isn't just as a lesbian - it is as a woman. Try to think of the last good role you saw for a woman - then if you really want to make your heart sink think of the last time you saw a good role for a lesbian, then if you want to really give yourself a headache try to think of the last time you saw a good role for a visible minority lesbian woman. Women for the most part in both tv and film are either girlfriends or plot points - rarely are they fleshed out characters. Media respresentation for all minorities, women, people of colour, people that are differently abled, lesbians etc...... it is an after thought, a cool plot device or a sterotype 99% of the time - and this is sooo sad.



That's why I always suggest to anyone who talks about these things - support local artists, support minority artists, etc - stop giving money to conglomerates and production companies that make you feel like you aren't welcomed or part of or significant. There are tons of theatre pieces, short films, local artists, writers, muscians that would love to have more support.



Sorry for the rant....



Just one last thing about The Atlanta Journal-Constitution's decision. This is what is sad - that people would complain about the image of two women kissing but probably got out the magnifying glasses for better coverage of pictures with people being blown to bits. This is why I hope Madonna keeps shocking the fuck out of these close minded little twits.

[xita]

See that is it dekalog, that's the value of Madonna, she'll get splattered in all the newspapers something that's obviously needed considering this newspaper.

They called a lesbian kiss : "ugly, horrid, profane, or provocative." And they go further to say that they'll sanitize the war for people so they won't have to think about the people that are dying as a consequence. What a lovely rag that is.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[BasilGray]

From IMDB:

Quote:

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Britney Spears has promised fans she'll never kiss a woman again after causing a furor by smooching Madonna at the MTV Video Music Awards last week. Spears sparked a storm of controversy when she locked lips with Madonna during the opening number of the Vmas, but she insists the one-off incident was just that. She says, "In rehearsals, it wasn't something that was like, 'This is what we're gonna do.' We played around a little bit and she said before the performance, 'Let's just feel it out and see what happens.' I didn't know it was gonna be that long and everything but it was cool. I've never kissed a woman before. I would not do it again." Britney insists she didn't realize the kiss would become such a huge talking point, and though it seems to have upset a lot of fans, her family enjoyed what they saw. She adds, "My mother thinks it was cool. She liked the performance. She knows it's all about performing. I think I'm still clean-living. I don't go home and have orgies or anything like that."

---

[BytrSuite]

Well, IMDB is a pretty iffy source most of the time but those quotes are from an interview she did with CNN.



For some reason, this all has made me determined to go out and buy Christina Aguilera's album.



I didn't watch the rest of the awards show. I've found I don't really like most of the music they play on MTV nowadays.

________
"Oh, good! I was hoping to add theft, endangerment and insanity to my list of things I did today."
"Ah! You, too?"
(Stitch laughs delightedly)

[sam7777]

This is why I'd rather see some really gay folks in a lip lock on public TV. It would be about love, like or some real feeling rather than let's just do it for the cameras. As DrG said: "If Madonna, Christina and Britney show they don't have a problem with homosexuality, then maybe in future their gay counterparts won't have a problem coming out (literally and figuratively speaking) on stage either." However, if Britney thinks that kissing a woman prevents her from "clean-living" and that she would never do it again, that does not send a good message to young lebian fans who look up to her or encourage her gay counterparts. It also reinforces the titillation factor since Britney and Christina are both obviously straight (Britney is also narrow minded). Guys can still fanatasize about joining in in a way they they could not with Ellen or Rosie O'Donell and their partners for example.



Dekalog: Yes. I am truly saddened at the state of women in the media whether staright, minority, lesbian of a mix of the above. While Madonna's stunts give exposure to the image of 2 women kissing (however unreal IMHO), I don't really see a real benefit to the gay community from that as much as from her many chartiable works. Certainly, Madonna got a lot of publicity as she did from kissing Sarah Bernhardt but neither event meant anything to me while Rosie's and Ellen's coming out meant a lot more to me. They are the ones IMHO who will trail blaze meaningfully for their peers. Thanks guys for making a difference.



Personally I keep going back to what Lisa Rosen said in her article "The Kiss That Isn't Just a Kiss" (LA Times, May 11): "For some sex is fine, but love is controversial". Love between 2 women is what I see missing from Madonna's images of 2 women kissing, from the 2 chicks in the hot tub on "Fastlane" and frankly from the rest of prime time. Woemn in love is truly and endangered species on TV and in the movies unless it ends in tragedy and death. In the same LA Times article, Sarah Warn of Afterellen.com said that the image of 2 women kissing or having sex is subversive. Not to me. It's so commonly used for male titillation that it has lost it's impact for me. The image of 2 women in a loving relationship is much more subversive IMHO and much rarer since it leaves little room for male fantasies.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[urnofosiris]

Eh that IMDB quote does not sound that good, the clean living comment irked me at first, the full CNN interview puts it in a better perspective. I take it to mean clean living as opposed to holding orgies, not clean living as opposed to same sex kissing. At least I hope that is what it means.

Anyway, it does not look like Britney has Madonna's stamina for facing controversy, but at least there is hope for Christina.

Before this aired it was announced on Dutch tv that Madonna would perform with Britney and Christina and we were subtly reminded that this was unique indeed, seeing as they are rumoured to not get along. Never heard that one before. It would be nice if the media stopped trying to make it seem like women can't be succesful at the same time and not hate each other. Sometimes I feel like I am led to believe that there is no such thing as a likeable selfmade successful strong uncompromising woman, she much be a calculating insincere jealous bitch at heart. Men aren't like that of course, that is why we don't get those they hate each other hairpulling stories about them. Boys always play nice and they never kiss each other either.

-----------------------------



She's so anally retentive she wouldn't sit down for fear of sucking up the furniture.

--Patsy Stone

[xita]

Oh that clean living statement is bs.. that's crap. I did not put britney as someone who had helped our community in any way and therefore could not say either way how I felt about her but now I can. She can just... yeah





Christina , I don't own any albums, yes Kathy I think it's time I buy it. You know what happened the last time I bought an album for socio-political reasons! Go dixie chicks!

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

-Me & Bobby
McGee

[3peanuts]

Well, I wanted to add a witty political/concerned-about-the-image-audience-gets-of-lesbian-models comment, but all my brain was able to express was and and .



Sorry, for not being serious

"I like Amber Benson 'cause she's a proletarian" Sarabiga

Keynes was right

[kajo 2000]

From Zap2it:

Quote:

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MTV Seals Ratings Win with a Girl-on-Girl Kiss

Friday, September 05 12:00 PM



LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - MTV's Video Music Awards didn't draw quite as big an audience this year as they did in 2002, but enough people tuned in to give the network a win in last week's cable ratings.



An average of 2.63 million people per night watched MTV in primetime for the week ending Sunday, Aug. 31. TNT ranked second with 2.57 million viewers, followed by HBO, 2.08 million, the Disney Channel, 1.98 million, and Nickelodeon, 1.89 million.



The VMA ceremony, hosted by Chris Rock and featuring Madonna's now-infamous bussing of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera, brought in 10.71 million viewers, down from last year's 12 million but still more than double the average of any other cable show during the week. MTV's post-awards wrap-up was second in the rankings at 4.91 million viewers. The pre-show hype drew 3.42 million people, good for 10th place.



"WWE Raw" on Spike TV drew 4.76 million viewers to finish third in the basic-cable rankings. Monday and Tuesday episodes of "Law & Order" - the best of which drew 4.35 million people - ranked fourth, sixth and seventh for TNT, and a Tuesday showing of "Homicide" on the network was fifth with 4.34 million viewers.



Episodes of Nickelodeon's "SpongeBob SquarePants" and "The Fairly OddParents" finished eighth and ninth, respectively. With "Sex and the City" taking Labor Day weekend off, HBO aired three hours of "The Sopranos" on Sunday night. They were the most-watched programs on pay cable, topping out at 3.68 million viewers with the third episode.

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"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

[Washi]

I have an opinion about this... who knew!



I hope I can express myself well.



Well, if one kiss made this whole media boom, I wonder what would hapen if they showed something else.

I mean, in a way, the more kissing gay couples we see, the more the image would be desensitivized (spelling?). For example, we see so much violence on the screen that we now need something incredibly violent to make us react, and in a way, that's what's hapening.

I think, of course, the kiss was a big publicity stunt, but I still feel that it wasn't just that. I think that the whole Wedding theme had maybe something to do with Gay Weddings. It has been an current issue and maybe Madonna did all this to bring it to the media or something. Maybe, I mean, I know I may be completely wrong, but that's what I think.

I think that Madonna, Britney and Christina made a statement somehow, and I applaud them. That is until I read what Britney said. Christina and Madonna have done some things for the gay community, like the "Beautiful" video and well, let's just say that Madonna is not totally straight. But what Britney said is pure bullshit. She trashed the whole statement behind the performance IMHO.

Everything you all said makes sense, and I also applaud you all.

-------------------



"See? I've mastered this tact crap." Anya in Tears Of The Goddess by Lisa



The course of love doesn’t always run smooth, especially for the neurotic and accident-prone. ~ LadyB

[sam7777]

I fear the images titillate far more than they desensitize. Women as sex objects is the message I see. The best way to have two women kiss without as much titillation is to show them as a couple in love and in a serious relationship IMHO. But "For some sex is fine, but love is controversial" as Lisa Rosen wrote. Bob posted in another thread an MSNBC article that pretty much shows the actual impact of the MTV thing IMHO:

Kiss that leaves men open mouthed

Quote:

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Girl-on-girl smooching fuels male fantasies like nothing else

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It remains all about the men with little about the women.

Quote:

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WHY ARE GUYS so crazy about watching girls kiss each other?

We are talking here about kisses between ultra-feminine, straight-looking girls, usually with the help of alcohol and an audience, and often as a prelude to other, more naked activities. The girl-on-girl kiss is the stuff of spring breaks and frat parties, of late-night dating shows and reality television and, most recently, of the MTV Video Music Awards, in which a predatory Madonna seized one tender, coquettish Britney Spears and — in a brief, oddly mechanical gesture — proceeded to rock men’s worlds.

---

Yep it's all about rocking men's worlds, I guess.

Quote:

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We are not talking about the mainstreaming of gays into popular culture, or the lesbian chic of the early ’90s, or even gay experimentation among young women in college dorm rooms. We are talking about girls kissing girls for the sake of male titillation, with any enjoyment on the part of the participants being wholly subsidiary. We are talking less about the movie “Kissing Jessica Stein,” in which a straight woman sincerely experiments with lesbianism, and more about the MTV flick “The Real Cancun,” in which kissing other girls is what girls on spring break do while wearing bikinis and drinking in front of cameras.

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Yep everyone knows that Madonna, Britney and Christina don't love each other so whatever message they were trying to send gets lost to many who just see it a porn. Better to see two less than gorgeous women who actually love one another kiss IMHO.

Quote:

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So we approach three young guys, friends since their recent undergraduate years at Georgetown, at the corner of the bar in Tom Tom, and ask them if girls have ever kissed each other in front of them, for show. They say they’ve each seen it over and over. (“Girls kiss all the time,” says Raj Mohan, 22, a neuroscience researcher.) We ask what their reaction typically is.

“You’re thinking, I can jump in and get in the threesome,” says Greg Goldberg, 23, now a law student at George Mason. Of course! The fantasy is so powerful, says Goldberg, that “if you ever go on spring break and see a wet T-shirt contest . . . whatever two girls go up there and do the most lesbian activities are most likely to win.”

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Yes it is a powerful male fantasy which is why it appears in alot of porn. Men are not threatened by women having sex because for many it's not "real" sex to them and/or they can always join in.

Quote:

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But somewhere, on stages lined with high-heeled legs and wet-clad chests, girls are lining up to kiss each other, and crowds of men are readying themselves to cheer. And maybe the girls are thinking about Madonna and Britney (and Christina Aguilera, who also shared a girl-kiss at the MTV awards) and thinking this could be their ticket to . . . something.

---

Not really an inspiration to women if even one woman thinks like that really. I think the truly subversive portrayal is too show two women who are clearly in love and having a real adult relationship. This will desensitize more people than "sex for the boys" IMHO. It would show that gay relationships are real and viable and not just drunken explorations for one. However, I'm dreaming that we will ever see such decent portrayals after Willow/Tara.



ETA: Thanks June!! I was never angry at Madonnna, Britney et al. I'm just dissappointed that this cliched view of lesbianism is primarily what we are getting since Willow/Tara.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 9/9/03 10:54 am

[June Leigh]

Interesting quotes and articles, sam7777. I love Lisa Rosen's quote about how sex between women is fine but love is controversial. I'm no longer angry at the pop princesses for their exploitation (well just a little). They did what they had to for their careers and it got them what they wanted.



Chris Rock was pretty funny, though.

[concrete]

Bit of a belated reaction but that was one effing hot performance by all 4 ladies!

Most inspiring & titillating.......

Off to watch it again and again and again

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

Even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious. ...

[vix84]

This is finally being shown in Australia, 28/9, channel 10. In the ad they showed the kiss maybe six times

~*@.......We are the weirdest person in the world.......@*~