Fan Fiction - sizzling and predominately female

[helpful information perha]

a very interesting read!



www.globetechnology.com/s...130/RVFICC



"a potent underground genre known as fan fiction, where cult TV series such as Smallville, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Star Trek inspire wild tangents of fancy and fornication"



"The cultural possibilities of television do not end with the pretty demographically pitched stories that issue unsought from the silly box in the corner. When you enter the wonderfully twisted (and mostly female) world of fan fiction"

[technopagan78]

Interesting article, thanks for posting the link, helpful information.



I was sorry to see no reference to Constance Penley's odd little book, Trek/NASA or NASA/Trek (I can never remember the order of the title.) The book is one half an exploration of Star Trek fan fic (focusing on Kirk/Spock slash) and one half a disection of the circumstances and discourse surrounding the Challenger disaster. She makes the interesting point that the "teacher in space" program had a kind of fandom-esque quality to it. I realize it sounds totally weird, but the book is actually very good.

[Katharyn]

Its funny... I cannot disagree with alot of that article, but I find myself uncomfortable as being a part of what they describe rather than what I feel we have here.



Not sure why, its just how I feel.



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




------------------------

[Tulipp]

Thanks for posting the link to this article, HIP. It's really very interesting, but I think Katharyn has put her finger on a discomfort I also felt when I read it.



For me, I had the feeling that the writer was collapsing "slash" fiction with "NC-17" fiction.



I understand the term "slash" to describe fan fiction that deals with an unconventional relationship, or a relationship that is not covered in an actual show. Kirk/Spock fanfic would be slash not only because the relationship is homosexual but because the slash in Kirk/Spock was added by the fanfic writers. So W/T fic would by definition NOT be slash, even though it is lesbian.



But that's not my point. I think if I were unfamiliar with fan fiction, I would walk away from that article with the sense that fanfic is always all about sex, and it just isn't. That's not to say that sexy fanfic (or smut, or PWP, or whatever you call it) is not a really important part of fan fiction, but it just misses the point--and borders on the troubling--to say that writing about gay pairings = writing about sex. To me, that smacks of discussions of the "gay lifestyle" that seem to suggest that we don't do our laundry and watch tv like everybody else because we're all having wild orgiastic gay sex all the time.



I liked what the article said about community, but again, the community it describes is and isn't the same as the community we have here. So, yes, Katharyn, I see what you mean.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

Edited by: Tulipp at: 12/2/02 12:28:18 pm

[Mayor Wilkins]

Interesting read!



Thanks for posting it and sharing it with all of us

[Katharyn]

Yeah Juli, that is it...



The implication is that Fan Fic = Sex



Forget the slash/non-slash thing which is an issue in its own right, and leave aside the gay = orgiastic too. What got me was just that it assumes that the point of fic is sex. Alot of fanfic is, including here on pens, but as a writer of fic that is largely not including sex scenes (I hold myself at much less than 5% in my own guesstimates) I think that is what got to me.



I could write smut... much, much more than I do.



I choose not to.



It is not the point for me - which is saying nothing about those who do. I just think the article is somewhat narrow minded and written after exposure, probably, to 2 or 3 fan boards rather than the whole fan fic community.



IMHO.



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




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Edited by: Katharyn at: 12/2/02 12:28:09 pm

[Tulipp]

Can't resist coming back to add a bit more....



Yes, Katharyn, my own fic has only a bit of sex in it. I like to read smut fic as much as others, I think, but even the sexy stuff--when it's done well, is about character, not just about sex, IMO.



What I did appreciate about the article was the statement that fanfic constitutes a huge literary movement; that is true, and it is one that is largely overlooked.



But what's really interesting to me is that the author focused more on Thamiris' "coming out" as pro-porn and sexually open than on her "coming out" as an academic who values fanfiction. In some ways, that's a much greater coming out.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

[tommo]

I hear you, Juli. I think I quite liked that sex-positive statement that she was making. However, yes, there is a common belief that fanfiction generally stems from a desire to see pairings and plotlines (or PWP) that is rooted in "slash" rather than in "fiction". But having said that, often fanfiction is able to express those characteristics and facets of a relationship onscreen that viewers never get to see. And I think that's one of the most important aspects of fanfiction, smut aside.

La la la, la la la-la la; la la la, la la la-la la ~ The Wisdom of Kylie...

[technopagan78]

What a fun discussion thread....sorry, I can't resist coming back for more...



I also liked the discussion of fan fic as a "literary movement" of sorts, and the relating of it to other traditions of storytelling. While I realize that a lot of fan writers don't wish to be taken seriously, it often bothers me that fan writers don't expect to be taken seriously. As if writing stories were this simple lark that requires no time, no effort, no thought. Even the fan writers who are writing purely for affect (read eroticism, PWP, and so forth) are writers all the same--and some of them are quite splendid writers at that, *pant*. Sure a lot of fan writing isn't very good, but quality come with practice and we all have to start somewhere, and it just kills me when writers feel they need to make excuses for their desire to write. Okay, going off on a rant here, settling down.



I understand Kathryn's and Tulipp's complaints, and I think you both make important observations. The writer does focus on the more salacious aspects of fan fic, to the distraction of other things. But larger issues surface, regardless of the author, or in spite of the author, perhaps.



And as for Tamaris' "coming out" or "coming into" her role as writer about sexuality, wow, what a great reminder of how messed up academia was in the 80s and 90s.

[Dumbsaint]

What a great article. Thanks Hip.



I especially enjoyed the bit about the fan fic author who used to identify as an "anti-porn feminist," who through writing and reading erotic fic, has come into a more sex-positive world view. But then I'm all about people reclaiming creative sexual expression. Fan fic is certainly a part of how I go about promoting that agenda, and it's great to read an article by someone pointing out the social import of women embracing sexual and literary expression and creating communities around that.



I'm not at all bothered by the article's focus on "smut." In fact, I find it curious that this article is making some Pens authors uncomfortable. True, it would have been nice to see a definition of slash fic that referenced queer invisibility in film and television, and slash fic as a medium of subverting that, but hey... it's a sex positive article on smut fic being good for the people, specifically, the women who write it. I think that's marvelous.

"Spank me, I'm Julia." -Binty McBint

Edited by: Dumbsaint at: 12/2/02 5:57:29 pm

[Tulipp]

Just for the record, me feeling a discomfort when I read the article isn't the same thing as me being uncomfortable.



I'm pro-lesbian sex--doing it or reading about it or writing it or beta-reading for people who write it--and I agree that the article spoke to, as Julia said, "the social import of women embracing sexual and literary expression and creating communities around that."



The academic work I have seen on fanfic has tended to represent it as ONLY about sex. Yes, it's about sex, and it's about all sorts of other kinds of things besides, not the least of which is a community of writers with some at least some shared values and assumptions. I'd like to see more about that.



If I say that I would like to see a representation as fanfic about sex AND, well, I can say that and still think that the idea that fanfic is partly about embracing and reclaiming sexual expression is true and also really, really great.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

[Garner]

Thanks HIP, that was an interesting article.



Dumbsaint, I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally do not entirely approve of porn, and so do feel uncomfortable being labeled or thought of as a porn writer just because I write fanfic. The two being so closely linked creates a negative connotation that I would rather didn't exist. I am not against porn, per se, but that's not what is important to me about fanfic. I prefer the stories that are truer to the characters, truer to the world, and could possibly have taken place in the show. (Or, as we are suffering through now, should have occured but didn't due to conflicting "visions" for the characters.) Sometimes a particularly interesting or well done AU also grabs my attention. A few, not many, but a few of the smuttier ones have also been well enough done that I have read them all the way through, but by and large I avoid NC-17 stuff. Of course I am probably just very repressed.



Perhaps fanfic of the slash variety is more narcississtic and allows the writer to work out their own sexual frustrations or desires. I could see that. I would think going to an adult theater or renting outright porn would be different from writing your own. Hell there has to be a reason that someone would be willing to read smut based on characters they know and love while they wouldn't rent a triple X movie etc. Maybe it's safer. I also note that of all the W/T fiction I have downloaded from the Wiccan Ways and Extra Flamey archives I would say less than half is NC-17, probably less than a third. Perhaps W/T are unique in that they are already in love and a couple?



I think overall for me the article points out that there is not enough coverage of the fanfic phenomenon. How it started is pretty well covered, but how it has changed, the makeup, the need it fulfills, the different types around and why it seems so attractive all seem very much ignored or overlooked. It seems to me to be a study that would certainly be worth doing. I, for one, would be interested in reading what such a comprehensive examination revealed.



Garner

[Dumbsaint]

Garner, the sad fact is that most porn/erotica out there is crap. I've imbibed enough to know. That's another reason why I started writing sexy stories- utter disatisfaction, and oftentimes, utter disgust with what is available to me in terms of entertainment as an enthusiast of all things sex-positive, and also as a gay woman. Western culture is still strugging under the weight of puritanical, misogynistic, equating-sex-with-something-dirty type nonsense. I'm the first person to admit that a lot of porn, in addition to committing the great transgression of being anything BUT sexy, is incredibly and messily misogynistic and exploitative. But creative works of sexual expression have a lot of potential to be empowering, and more and more, even if in little baby steps, there are people who are working towards that. Desire can be a very powerful and positive motivating and transformative force. One which has been, historically, vastly underutitlized because pretty much everyone is woefully repressed. And I've seen, via fan fic, some of the best sex-positive work to be found anywhere. Certainly better than most of the erotica anthologies I've picked up. I have also enjoyed many fics that don't include sexual encounters as part of their structure, but the work I like best tends to treat sexuality as fluidly, naturally, and as candidly as any other subject matter in life.



At any rate, thanks, Garner, for that response, it gave me a few things to chew on. I certainly come at this from a very different perspective than you do, and I appreciate the time it takes to sit down and say something coherent about- well, anything really. I also get frustrated when people are quick to reduce work with sexual themes to being "just about sex." In the first place, it bothers me when people say "just about sex" like that's a bad thing, or a lesser thing, and secondly, if you're interested in humanity in general, I'd argue that examining the ways in which people conceive of sex is one of the most fascinating methods of studying people's basic assumptions about who and what we are. And even without the cerebral stuff, though for many of us, sex rarely is without that, it's awfully nice to be able to appreciate something simply for being unabashedly sexy, too.



Edited to add: I was thinking about what you said, G, regarding Willow and Tara specifically, and the possibility of well-known and beloved characters being "safer" in terms of writing/reading smut about them, even for people who usually avoid smutty work. I'm a writer. I'm a person who has been very interested in erotic fiction for years. But I never wrote smut until I became a W/T fan. You're right. They are unique in that they are the first longterm, serious, passionately in love lesbian couple that anyone has ever had the opportunity to see on TV. But even still, their desire for one another had to be relegated for two years to metaphor on a show that has only been too happy to push the envelope with showing sexual situations in prime time. And while ME pulled off the metaphors with more grace and creativity than usual, and while I loved the metaphors for the way Aly and Amber played them- they were still metaphors. We still never saw their first kiss. Never knew for sure when they made love for the first time. That's kind of infuriating in comparison to the way developing relationships between straight characters are portrayed. I fell in love with Willow and Tara, and I wanted to figure out for myself how desire worked between them, in a more physical kind of way- because I was denied seeing that on the show. For me it started not a matter of "safer" so much as just the compulsion to allow them to be sexual with each other somewhere. Anywhere. And yet I still haven't written original smut, or smut set in other fandoms- and not for lack of trying. So maybe there is something to them being "safer." That's something I'll have to give more thought to.

"Spank me, I'm Julia." -Binty McBint

Edited by: Dumbsaint at: 12/2/02 6:17:37 pm

[Tulipp]

I am very interested in this thread and particularly in the last few posts.



But...I want to say that the "just" in "just about sex" doesn't have to be a "just" that means to diminish. For me, it's a "just" that suggests my refusal to talk about something as singular when in fact it is very plural.



I hope that that can be received in the spirit in which I mean it, an attempt to say that as well as sex, there's some other really interesting stuff going in fanfic.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

Edited by: Tulipp at: 12/4/02 11:02:36 am

[xita]

Ok, I loved the sex positive message, unfortunately there is so little written about fanfic that it is unfortunate that this article didn't go in depth into the other things that fan fic does. They mention how it can express disatisfaction with a show. I think certainly the way I see pens is to take the characters, not borrow them as has been the common disclaimer with fan fic. I think that for me has been the biggest freedom in reading and once upon a time writing fan fic. I was driven to write w/t fic because the show wasn't showing me what I needed to see. I wanted the w/t show, since I couldn't have it , ff became the way to get it. Now, it has become the only way to have w/t at all. I think it is great that fan fic has provided a way for women to express their sexuality without feeling like they are betraying their feminism, etc.



The thing that I guessed bothered me the most in this article was that it was about a particular type of woman. The straight woman writing either male/male slash or female/male. Mentions of liking two pretty guys together, etc. I missed the discussion of the women writing f/f fan fic. That's a much newer form. I think Xena then Buffy were the 2 big movements that opened the door for f/f fic. And it was kind of completely ignored there.



Also, I think pens is more nurturing and beta while tough, are people who care not just about grammar, style but the characters. Anyway, it was an interesting article, I wish there were more.

-------------------------------

Buffy?

Let's change it, the Discovery channel has koala bears.

[technopagan78]

Xita, in your post you expressed an interest in discussions of fem slash fan fic, and I was thinking that you might find this article interesting. Here is the link to the pdf file.



www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/julier/ thesis/print/jlr-cyborgsex.pdf



The article deals with ST Voy J/7 fem slash. The cover art alone is worth the download. As for the article, I've not read it very carefully, but plan to eventually. The first seventeen pages are more or less a literature review/theroretical discussion. The fun begins when the author launches her analysis of a specific fan fic. And there is some rather pointed commentary about the reasons for fan fic, which in view of W/T and ME seems all the more interesting.

[nepthys12]

I understand the term "slash" to describe fan fiction that deals with an unconventional relationship, or a relationship that is not covered in an actual show. Kirk/Spock fanfic would be slash not only because the relationship is homosexual but because the slash in Kirk/Spock was added by the fanfic writers. So W/T fic would by definition NOT be slash, even though it is lesbian.



Just a side note to this - there is no universal agreement on what exactly "slash" means.



Some (including me) feel that slash is any m/m or f/f relationship, even if it's conventional in the show. To me, Willow/Tara is slash, and I have labelled it as such on my website.



Other feel that slash is unconventional m/m or f/f.



A third group feels that slash is unconventional relationships, whether m/m, f/f, or m/f.



I think this is pretty much something people have to agree to disagree on.

Edited by: nepthys12 at: 12/3/02 7:02:28 am

[starlitefaeriegrrrl]

I agree with most of you, the article was too sex focused for me to be able to relate. And, besides, pretty much all the pairings mentioned were male, like what? Girls don't write female slash ever? I hate reading articles like that one because I don't like, at all, to be generalized. Three women interviewed does not a collective opinion make. (Does that make sense? Oh well.)



Also, although they mentioned that some fanfic writers go on to become published authors, I found it irritating that they didn't mention how fanfic can help a writer grow and evolve in their style and storytelling. I mean, I know that the first flowy, dream-like story I ever wrote was a fanfic from the Francesca Lia Block novel 'Violet & Claire' - that was the first and now, a year or two later, all my work is that way. I consider that fanfic of mine a turning point. Fanfic is so important to me, to my writing, to improvment. And they touched on that with the beta reader thing but they did not go into detail at all.

[ruby]

Interesting article, even though the author fails to understand (and as a result distorts/misrepresents) the culture he describes. I found the information accurate, but not at all representative.



The most fascinating idea, for me, was that lots of other "literary" writing could fit under the banner of fanfic. Citing all of the adaptations and embellishments of the story of the Fall of Troy (even the Aeneid!) was a great example. But is ff more than mere appropriation and extension?



Under that rubric, most of our 'masterpieces' (especially those that riff on mythology) could enter a discussion of fanfic. Sidney's Arcadia? Check. Spenser's Faerie Queene? Check. Shakespeare used 'canonical' source material for virtually every play he wrote. And opera wouldn't even exist without 'fanfic' practice.



So how do we define the phenomenon? I appreciate the basic argument as a counterpoint who those dismiss ff as lacking literary merit--but if we're using this criteria, what is "original"?

Wow, that was so close to being empowering. --"Same Time, Same Place"

[darkmagicwillow]

I haven't read the article, but ruby's reply struck a chord with me. Citing The Aenied as early fanfic really got my attention.



To some degree or another, virtually all works of art are derivative, using the characters, plot, or setting of earlier stories in some fashion. As ruby points out, this doesn't make them bad works of art as most recognized masterpieces are derivative in this way. Conversely, I find many works of modern art original but not particularly good.



Along with most posters here, I don't agree that fan fiction as a genre lacks literary merit or originality. Many of the stories on Pens are much more original than most of what's published in the fantasy or horror genres, especially if you compare them to the authorized Buffy novels which have to leave everything unchanged at the end.



I think we need to have a greater recognition as a society that works of art are always built upon earlier works of art. Congress is constantly expanding and extending copyright and intellectual property laws in ignorance of that fact and we will suffer the consequences in the form of fewer new good works of art as well as in fewer innovations as small players are forced out by the legal might of large corporations like Disney in entertainment and Microsoft in software.



I highly recommend Jessica Litman's Digital Copyright and Lawrence Lessig's The Future of Ideas even if you're not interested because these are issues that will affect your life. Here's a couple more facts to get you interested: no work has gone out of copyright since about 1920, and Congress hasn't written a law on copryright since before WWII--the publishing and recording industries write their own laws which they give to Congress.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Garner]

Dumbsaint, glad you got something to think about. The whole fanfic thing is something that I am relatively new to, and if my current self told my self five years ago that I would be doing this I would laugh in my face. Yet there is something definitely satisfying about being able to see, well read, more adventures about characters you love than what we get on TV. Especially since I agree with Xita that I would have preferred the W/T show to BtVS. Who needs the rest of them anyway? OK, fine, as guest stars that's OK. And I totally get the point of wanting to experience what was denied us on screen. The first kiss, the first sex, the first scooby meeting, the first of just about anything. Hell, from the standpoint of Willow coming to terms with being gay, how that happened, what she thought, how she dealt, that is all actually pretty serious and important stuff that they didn't have time for on the show. These are themes that deserve attention and are of literary merit by themselves, the W/T BtVS format notwithstanding.



But then the above sort of stuff is different than writing say, Xander/Spike fiction. That seems like it satisfies a different sort of need. If it is females writing it, I can see, or at least guess at, the attraction. Working out that sexual fantasy in a at least somewhat acceptable format. Maybe even a guy is working out latent homosexual urges that he couldn't express in normal life.



But then there also seems to be more to it than all of that. We write adventures for W/T that are neither sexual, showing us what the show left out, but really just another day in their lives, a new experience for the two of them. What need does that serve? Is it because the characters so enthrall us that we want to see more of them, doing just about anything? Just one more adventure, one more peril overcome? I find the whole phenomenon fascinating. The whole sense of community that builds around it is also interesting. I wonder, since I obviously don't know, if other fanfic sites on other shows have the same cohesiveness to it? So far I have met about 5-6 kittens in real life and not been disappointed in anyone that I have met [They might not say the same ] I really do hope that the subject of fanfic is something that gets more and more attention. I loved it in JAG when one of the older more established characters mentioned Star Trek fanfic and how he intended to write an adaptation of Richard the III in the Next Gen universe, showing how other Shakespeare plays were in the original series and this one was left out. It came across as very serious, acceptable, and yet fun and clever. Not something I would have expected to see/hear on a mainstream show like JAG.



For myself writing W/T sex scenes would sort of be like peaking at parents or siblings engaged in such activities. It just seems wrong somehow to me. Reading it isn't as big a deal. I think what Dumbsaint said about our puritanical repressiveness is very true. Our society is obssessed with sex (if you talk with anyone from Europe that's a common observation, or used to be) but at the same time treats it like a dirty secret. If fanfic can help us work through this dichotomy, than so much the better. Especially when you bring the homosexual factor into play. Things that are not aired or talked about do have a way of festering, twisting and getting worse. However, I still would like to see fanfic climb out of the image as nothing but slash and sex. Japanese animation used to be treated like that too, about 10-15 years ago definitely. Now that is not so much the case, but media attention still likes to look at the "worst" cases. I suppose that reinforces their preconceptions but also helps shock their viewers and keep them interested, which is such a disservice all told.



Well enough rambling,

Garner

[hopico99]

I don't write fanfic...I do read alot and I do consider myself a writer...just not of the fanfic genre. However, I wanted to say I am finding this conversation fascinating.



I agree with Dumbsaint (Julia??) on a lot of points. I think fanfic, particularly W/T, serves so many purposes and am exceptionally happy that one of those is to help create a lesbian couple that is sexual. I appreciate all of the fanfic writers who do delve into the NC-17 area, good and bad, simply for the fact that they are willing to write about women's sexuality, in particular lesbian sexuality.



While I feel like the issue of sex and sexuality has become less and less taboo, I do believe it's necessary for lesbian sexuality to be protrayed as much as possible. I also believe that it's important for people who consider themselves lesbians or queer to be able to create their own interpretations of their sexualities.



I also believe that sexuality exists on a continuum. I think that sexual identity and sexual behavior can be separate entities and therefore, it's important to be able to see a multitude of options portrayed. Not because I personally want to see how many different positions/situations people can create for W/T but because I think there are people out in the world who need to see themselves mirrored in some ways and forms...fanfic being one of them.



That's what drew me to these characters and continues to draw me to fanfic (which I read obsessively) is the creation of possibilities and identities that can exist outside the mainstream with some level of validity and dignity, even if they are wearing dog collars and carrying whips and chains.



I also think the article did a good job of bringing light to a phenomenon of importance. However, like most things that are being brought to light, the ways in which they are first highlighted are not always going to be able to fully encompass all of the variety that exists. Nor will it convey the importance of feelings and complexity of relationships between fans and their writing, re-writing, re-interpretation, and re-visioning of characters and stories.



I hope all of this made sense...it's late and yeah.....

WILLOW: Usually I use that time to copy over my class notes with a system of different colored pens ... but it's been pointed out to me that that's, you know, insane.

TARA: I said "quirky.

[tkheaven]

Just gotta say...sizzling and predominately female..who woulda thunk...

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...Tk's Heaven

---

"I've become really protective of her. I want to make sure if Tara comes back, it's for good reason." -Amber Benson
Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to this season's catch phrase.
"Got it: that's a 'yes' to petals; a 'no' to pricks. I should remember that more often." -On Second Thought

[Hemiola]

Ah yes, very interesting stuff, this.



Of course, it is correct that the whole "fanfic" phenomenon did indeed begin with Star Trek fandom, which of course took the idea of "fanzines" from classic sci-fi. Star Trek fanfic, apart from the standard "slash" stuff, also created some really strange sub-categories. For instance, I wonder how many people on this board are old enough to have read any NTM (="Night of the Twin Moons") stories, of which there were hundreds of examples?

[Tulipp]

Yes, Hemiola, most of the stuff I've read about fan fiction (academic stuff, mostly) talks about fanfic as emerging from Star Trek and, in the beginning, really being an in-person and in-print phenomenon with interactions taking place at and around conventions. Camille Bacon-Smith's book Enterprising Women: Television Fandom and the Creation of Popular Myth is often considered to be one of the earliest book-length studies of fan fiction, and although she was writing as recently as 1992, the phenomenon she describes has really been transformed by the internet and by the accumulation of tradition, easier access, and maybe just the sheer bulk of television shows and movies to write about.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

[Dumbsaint]

Continuing this conversation...

Quote:

---

For myself writing W/T sex scenes would sort of be like peaking at parents or siblings engaged in such activities. It just seems wrong somehow to me. Reading it isn't as big a deal. -Garner

---

See, therein lies the question. What's the difference between writing and reading smutfic? For you, why is writing it "somehow wrong," but reading it isn't?

"Spank me, I'm Julia." -Binty McBint

[tommo]

Quote:

---

For myself writing W/T sex scenes would sort of be like peaking at parents or siblings engaged in such activities. It just seems wrong somehow to me. Reading it isn't as big a deal.

---

You make an interesting point here, Garner. On the one hand, your familiarity and love for Willow and Tara prevents you from writing sex scenes about them, but contrary to that, you don't mind reading sex scenes so much. I read this as you saying that you weren't too concerned about being a voyeur, as long as you weren't actively taking part in that voyeurism itself. I think a lot of people who read fanfic would see reading as an active participation in itself. As a writer of fanfic that is NC-17, I have to say that the writing of such fic doesn't involve me half as much as the reading of it. So then, I would purport the idea that reading is far more voyeuristic an action than writing. That's the way I view reading and writing, I suppose. Yes, I get involved when I write; of course I do, but I suspect it's a far more visceral experience when reading.

Quote:

---

I think what Dumbsaint said about our puritanical repressiveness is very true. Our society is obssessed with sex (if you talk with anyone from Europe that's a common observation, or used to be) but at the same time treats it like a dirty secret. If fanfic can help us work through this dichotomy, than so much the better.

---

I agree wholeheartedly. Female relationships, especially those of a sexual nature have always been considered "taboo". If anything, fanfic about Willow and Tara that depicts them as a sexual partnership can only enable a more accessible side of lesbianism. The vast range of fiction now being written with a Willow and Tara who (gasp) actually do have sex, and do explore that side of themselves and each other opens up a whole new realm of knowledge and enjoyment for lesbian readers. I'm wholeheartedly in favour of fanfic offering me, as a lesbian reader, a sexual experience in the literary genre. And I agree with Julia's statement earlier on about how much crap "porn" is out there for women like me.



That said, yes, there is a stigma attached to fanfic that believes it to be nothing more than titillation. But I also believe that anyone who has read widely in the genre, even limiting themselves to Pens, can see that fanfic about Willow and Tara is more than just smut. In fact, I have to say, I've seen some of the finest stories I've ever read on the Pens board. And that includes classic literature as well.

I'll be yours in winter, when the snow is on the grou-hound; I'll warm you through December and I'll always be arou-hound. We'll kiss beneath the mistletoe, when Santa comes to tow-hown...

[Garner]

Normally I don't read the smut sections of a lot of the stories posted. As I mentioned I am a horribly repressed person. And yes, it does seem voyeuristic. But on the other hand, when it is done well enough (though I admit to loving the funny sex stuff too, especially Once More, All Naked, All Gay) and the love of the two characters involved comes through, and it seems like an extension of the story or their expresiveness I will continue to read along rather than skip ahead. I think it is the outright graphic depiction of sex for just sexes sake that I am less inclined to read. I don't really have any problem with them, it's just not for me. I think I am looking for something else when I am reading. However, as an exploration of female on female sex, and the lack of "porn" for women this area may be more important than a lot of the other fic out there. I remember an episode of Cybil (a show I actually liked a lot) where Cybil and Maryanne (who ruled) saw this same problem and tried to make a porn movie for women. It ended up a failure and I recall thinking that there really is a lack there. Is it that women are not supposed to be sexual? Is it that we teach women to be very repressed? Or, is it that each woman has her own idea of what is titillating and erotic while men have a much narrower view of what turns them on? That whole guys are simple to please, women more dificult stereotype. I would suppose that all three aspects are involved.



Now, as to why I refuse to write out actual sex scenes. Well, I am not a woman, nor a lesbian, and so don't really feel that qualified to write in that area, but really that is a cop out. I write about other stuff I have no direct knowledge of. Perhaps it is that I do feel more involved with what I am writing than what I am reading. I picture what is going on. I try and work through what emotions the characters may be feeling. I try and come at action or dialog from a number of angles. Perhaps writing sex scenes crosses to far into outright fatasization for me. In any case it seems less removed to me than reading it.



Part of the problem with any discussion of fanfic in the mainstream is that the repressive nature of our culture does assign a negative connotation to porn and attempts to explore sexuality in any non-normal fashion. The sex drive is very powerful and visceral and perhaps that scares people. They don't want to be confronted by it, by their own timidity in not exploring it, or the lack of control that can result. Having limits can be good and re-assuring. Fanfic can challenge that and so it often gets denigrated. And quite a lot of it is really pretty bad too. But then so is much that is published. I agree with Tommo that I have read some amazingly good stories on the Pens or Wiccan Ways. Stuff that could and should be considered literary and I would rather read than the official books. What often gets overlooked is the level of consistency and continuity that non slash fanfic can attain. Often it has better thought out rationale and characterizations than the actual shows (Not that a chimp with a banana dipped in diesel oil couldn't produce better than what we are currently seeing!) in question. I think it would be nice if some of this effort, attention to detail, and inventiveness were given as much attention as the sexual aspects.



Well, that's tonights thoughts and meandering,



Garner

[WebWarlock]

Interesting article, but even better conversation here.



I read W/T fanfic because, like others have said, particulary Garner, it serves a need. I would rather read pages of W/T just talking about the newspaper than a paragraph of some other coupling.



Also I didnot start reading the smutty stuff either. Not that I have any aversions to sex, or porn, or smut. I just was more compelled with the stories being told. I wanted to read more about the girls and thier lives. If I wanted porn, hey there was allways alt.sex.stories on usenet. Course now I won't pass up a great W/T smut story.



It is a shared universe we get to play in, and we all have learned to play nice with each other really. We follow the rules so Garner's Willow in "Those that feed" is as recognizable to us as Ruth's in "Touchstone". They are not 'exact' but we all get that.



And it is fun. We share bits our worlds with each other using the same characters and situations.



I also think that this what makes this place so special.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"I am just a worthless liar. I am just an imbecile. I will only complicate you. Trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you. I will chew it up and leave, I will work to elevate you just enough to bring you down. Trust me. Trust me." - Sober, Tool

[caged heart]

A pretty interesting article, except that it hardly mentions F/F slash. I also think it does a little too much equating of fan fiction with sex. Obviously sex is a part of slash fic, but I think for many readers its not the most important part. Personally I'm not interested in a story unless the characters are well-written and it has a good plot. No matter how steamy the sex scenes, it doesn't mean anything if there is no context for them. I like fic that has steamy sex scenes within the context of a realistic relationship between two characters. Sex that comes from love. One example I can think of is a Buffy/Dawn story I read. At first I wasn't sure I could get into that, but I liked some of the author's other stories so I decided to give it a shot. I ended up really liking it because she wrote the characters very well and the sexual aspect flowed naturally within the plot.



This article is a semi-good introduction to fanfic, and I like how it talks about women becoming sex-positive by writing fic, but it doesn't really say much.



Has anyone read the book Reading the Vampire Slayer? It's a collection of essays on BtVS and Angel, and there's one essay about slash fic. It talks a little about the history of slash fic (how it started with Star Trek, etc.) and how it's changed because of the Internet. It also talks about how femslash fic is becoming more popular. But the most interesting part, I think, is the author's analysis on how BtVS invites these interpretations of the characters. I totally agree that there is a lot of gay subtext in the show, so a viewer who wants to interpret it that way can. She talks about the Buffy-Faith dynamic, and analyzes Buffy's "coming out" as a Slayer to her mom. It's an interesting read.

'Follow the spiders!' Why couldn't it be 'follow the butterflies'? -- Ron Weasley