"Preventing" homosexuality??

[xita]

Mrs. Vertigo, I am not sure where you get your views, but certainly they aren't welcome here. No one on this board will be allowed to call homosexuality abnormal. Next time it gets edited out.



And maudmac's quite right, it is quite normal, take a look at a book called Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. It certainly challenges what is normal.



And I would choose to be gay, it's been very rewarding to me, it's part of me and I can't imagine being someone else. I wouldn't change any aspect of me. Happy, I am.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Oooh Xita!" - Amber Benson

Edited by: xita  at: 7/15/02 10:20:32 am

[Epicurus]

Mrs Vertigo said:

I just want to refer to something a couple of you have mentioned, that if you were actually given the choice to be either straight or gay, you would still prefer to be gay. Well, why is that?

I would’ve chosen to be straight. I don’t ‘like’ being a lesbian, I wouldn’t ‘choose’ it.



You don’t like being a lesbian? What’s not to like?

While I understand where these types of feelings stem from, I can’t agree.

I could never choose to be the opposite of what I am just because I’m going to face discrimination or know people might hate me (mind you, I never looked at my life that way 5 years ago)



and

Well, whether we like it or not, homosexuality is an abnormality. Its sot a disability, but its not a normal and/or natural thing.



I don’t see being gay as an abnormality because I have no clue what the definition for “Normal” is.

Everything in this world has disadvantages. Being straight, I’m sure, has some disadvantages that being gay doesn’t and vice versa.



I think it only does a disservice to the gay community when people use words like unnatural/abnormal/disability etc. whether spoken by a gay or straight person.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Zahir al Daoud]

The business of comparing identical twins' orientation is a nice example of how facile the whole "nature vs nurture" argument tends to be. Clearly both are at work, and sometimes a certain amount of choice is involved.



Myself, I look at it a different way. Whether homosexuality (for example) is inbred or the result of random emotional factors or something like a lifestyle choice (or some combination of all three, depending on the individual), there's a more important question.



What harm does it do? Its like preferring vanilla over chocolate, being right or left handed, having an "innie" or "outie." Where is the moral question here? Will somebody please tell me what difference it makes?

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[Lindy]

I am with Zahir here. For me it doesn't matter at all where homosexuality comes from. It is; it exists, that is a fact, and people (and animals) all around the world live happily with it. Just society makes it so hard. And although it is hard, gay people do not stop being. That is all I need to know, really. If some day someone finally can tell definetly what exactly causes homosexuality, well, fine, that will be something that will explain things. But it surely won't change anything for me.

*********

Buffy: Kill the bad fairy... destroy the bad fairy's
powercenter, whatever, and all the troubles go away? ...

World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing
doesn't change that.

Giles: I have to believe in a better world.

[Sheridan]

Umm Lindy If they find a genetic explanation why would you imagine people would content with knowing? The next step would be engineering. Do you think the likes of Dobson would just say 'I was wrong', nope his ilk will want to 'fix' things.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[Lindy]

Well, I figure that no matter what the explanation will be, people like Dobson will find a way to degrade homosexuality with it. You could find the most logical and most human way to it and such people would still go "Well, given this new results one would clearly say those people all go to hell." or something to that degree. What I said in my post above is just how I look at it. My personal take on this issue.

*********

Buffy: Kill the bad fairy... destroy the bad fairy's
powercenter, whatever, and all the troubles go away? ...

World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing
doesn't change that.

Giles: I have to believe in a better world.

[xita]

I agree, trying to find the natural cause of it leads to engineering. Though I think it's a blend of many things. In the end to me it doesn't matter at all. Gay is gay is gay is gay is gay.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Oooh Xita!" - Amber Benson

[Sheridan]

Xita I suspect you are right that it will turn out to be a blend of things, and of course it may be linked with other characteristics. The important thing is to create a society where it isn't an issue, but sadly thats a long way down the line....

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[mscheckmate]

I can't necessarily explain why I feel this way, but I have long believed that being gay is a great gift. I would not change my sexual orientation even if it were truly possible to do so.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

[urnofosiris]

The only possible use I can see of trying to find the "gay gene" might be that you can whack it around the ears of those that claim being gay is a choice and therefore something one can be talked out of. However, those people -and unfortunately many of those people make laws- would probably turn around and call being gay a physical disease, instead of a mental one (as many do now) and will still try and find the cure whether you want one or not. I just wish there would be *one* study as to why a straight guy such as the good doctor would even give a flying crap about whether someone else is gay or bi. Seems to me he needs a cure more than we do.



As for homosexuality, what ever the "cause", it's not a hormonal imbalance, if that were true you could pop a pill and be "cured".

Quote:

---

If I could take a pill today that would make me straight, there's no way I would do it.

---

I've used that example as well in the past. If there would be a pill that would have made me feel like a (straight) woman I would not have taken it. If I could have been born like a "normal" man, well ok, but only if my life would not be any different from what it is today, and it would not work that way, so even that I would not choose if I could. I like who I am, well most of the time, I like what I have. I guess I am just lucky to be happy. I rather be that than normal, whatever normal may be.

---------------------------


Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[Dumbsaint]

Quote:

---

I just wish there would be *one* study as to why a straight guy such as the good doctor would even give a flying crap about whether someone else is gay or bi. Seems to me he needs a cure more than we do.

---

Again with the me wanting to bear spawn of Garfield.

"It's not real. I mean, there are no vampires, there are no witches. Well, there are Wiccans, but they're not making out with Alyson, so..." -Amber Benson

[Willowlicious]

I was raised in a Christian home. The Christian influence my parents brought me was largely wonderful. They are (or were in my Mom's case) wonderful, caring, fairly liberal people who loved my sister and I deeply and openly. They were confused when I came out to them, but they never showed me anything but love and respect and soon it wasn't an issue at all. I remember my Dad telling me, "I was raised to think (homosexuality) was wrong, but I look at you and I know that it can't be. You are beautiful and you are my daughter and you are my gift from God. I may have to rethink a lot of things because of this, but you're not one of them." My Dad is a saint. Let that go on record.



Anyway, despite my parents' fairly liberal view of things, they did have a few Dobson books around when I was a kid. They didn't really even read them, the things were just kind of passed around at church. There was no avoiding them. So I remember reading one of this guy's sex books for teens when I was 12 or 13. I remember that the book said homosexuality was "very bad," but I hadn't realized I was gay yet (despite my massive crushage on the Bionic Woman and Col. Deering on Buck Rogers, but, whatever), so it didn't really resonate. What DID resonate was that this guy clearly hated sex in general. If it wasn't married, guy/girl and in the missionary position with the intent to create a child, you were a very, very bad person. You were a bad person for having sexual thoughts. You were an EXTREMELY bad person for masturbating. (God, did I freak out at that one...er...uh...nevermind.) Anyway, I remember being young and having all these new, raging hormonal urges and being told it was all baaaaaaaad. It kept me up at night. It did. I can't imagine how many healthy teens and adults this jerk has harmed by his bigoted, limited, unhealthy view of sexuality. It makes me sad and angry.



Sexuality is beautiful. Being straight is beautiful. Being gay is soooo beautiful.



And I don't regret being gay the tiniest bit. I'd never change it. I've learned so many lessons, been forced to look at things from new angles and points of view. I've been challenged and forced to think. And I've experienced the true love of another woman. Her love is the most beautiful, rewarding thing I've ever known. And if the summation of my entire life comes down to the moments I've spent with her, well...then being gay is the greatest gift ever given to me.



A gift from God...my Dad told me so.



Amy

--------

"It's a luscious mix of words and tricks that let us bet when we know we should fold."

"Caring Is Creepy" by The Shins

Edited by: Willowlicious at: 7/15/02 1:23:24 pm

[Zahir al Daoud]

Oh bravo Amy.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[urnofosiris]

Ah err..Julia, wouldn't you rather have 10000 of Amy's babies?

That was a wonderful post Amy, and your father is a wise man and very right.

---------------------------


Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[Lindy]

Aw, Amy, what a lovely inspiring post. Thanks for that.



Your dad rocks!! Heh.

*********

Buffy: Kill the bad fairy... destroy the bad fairy's
powercenter, whatever, and all the troubles go away? ...

World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing
doesn't change that.

Giles: I have to believe in a better world.

[Dumbsaint]

Oh, why don't we just make it an even 20,000? That way I can whore around with the both of you. Two times the fun.



Really wonderful post, Amy.

"It's not real. I mean, there are no vampires, there are no witches. Well, there are Wiccans, but they're not making out with Alyson, so..." -Amber Benson

[relativegirl]

Amy your Dad sounds absolutely wonderful and your post was beautiful. And I kinda want to have your Dad's babies -- but that's probably sick and wrong. Most things that I want are. shrug

~ If I should rock you,
the whole world would rock within my arms ~

[Amymlc]

What I do not understand is how do we determine what is normal and what isn't. Isn't "normal" just something that is average? I certainly don't think homosexuality is abnormal, I am just curious as to how they scientifically measure what is normal and what is not. Usually it is because it is similar to lots of other people.....well homosexuals have been around forever in the human and animal kingdoms. How horrible it must be for the homosexuals who actually believe they are unnatural or have a hormonal imbalance. That just disgusts me that this world would rather have so many innocent people believe they are disgusting than take a look at themselves and their strange and hurtful beliefs. It is just disgusting that people can be disowned by their families and by society in general because the have sex a little bit differently than heterosexuals (ummm...I don't mean the actual methods ) The hatred that some people feel toward people who are different then them is what is scary and unnatural. Since when it is natural to chain someone to a fence and beat them to death because they are gay? It is really funny to me that we are okay with all the other things that are "unnatural" like fast food, genetic cloning, and all the other things like that, but when it comes to something that is completely natural and normal they freak out. Maybe it is just because people fear what they cannot explain or something like that.



I guess the point I am trying to make is that homosexuals aren't the ones who are unnatural, disgusting, and wrong, the people full of hate are.



Sometimes society frustrates me so much that I want to jump up and down and scream like a toddler having a temper tantrum...but that seems to be what it takes to make people open their eyes. African Americans had to do it, women had to do it, and homosexuals are still having to do it, but I hope that one day people will be able to look at homophobia like we do the treatment of left handed children. It is profoundly stupid to the point that it is almost funny.

They were right, I'm a homo--But I'm a Cheerleader

[tommo]

My girlfriend wanted to come out to her parents and I was, naturally rather worried about this. Both of us come from Catholic backgrounds and that in itself throws up a whole range of conflicts and tenets to which neither myself nor my girlfriend felt we could support. But parents are parents...and their beliefs are their beliefs. However damning they are. And they are.



Anyway, my girlfriend came out to her very Catholic parents who turned around and were not only interested in who I was, but also what our relationship was like. I believe my erstwhile mother-in-law asked my girlfriend "And have you two been intimate?" to which my girlfriend answered, "Uh...yeah." My mother-in-law then said, "Good." And that was that.



A couple of days later she sent an email to my girlfriend which she sent on to me, that explained how pleased she was my girlfriend had come out to her. That being gay was the person she was; that she loved her more for being special, not less. That because my girlfriend had found love with me, then it was cause for celebration.



Some time ago, she sent an email to both my girlfriend and myself, that was directed at daughters. She made it clear that she thought of us both as her daughters, and that I was now family.



Not excluded, but invited. Special and different meaning good, not bad.



And uh, I know that when I started this it meant something but now I'm not sure what I was going to say. Um, sorry. Heh.

----------
TARA: ...didn't think she liked my fucking until I realized that that was her yummy face

[urnofosiris]

Don't be sorry Ruth, what you said was beautiful as well, and there goes another stereotype out the window, you actually have a *nice* mother-in-law, surely that's unnatural.

---------------------------


Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[supermus]

Normal is a crappy word. It's a natural part of adolescents to strive to be "normal". However, most teens don't realize it's IMPOSSIBLE! there's no such thing as complete normality. All normal is is the majority. I quote from Miriam-Webster:

Quote:

---

according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle

---

and also, for norm:

Quote:

---

AVERAGE: as a : a set standard of development or achievement usually derived from the average or median achievement of a large group b : a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group c : a widespread practice, procedure, or custom

---

So it means nothing. And people who try to interpret the Bible literally really need to see South Park Season 6 Episode 8(Red Hot Catholic Love). Aside from being funny as hell it teaches all of us something about the necessity to derive a general message about peace and tolerance rather than a twisted beuracracy.

--------

"Any singer can shatter a glass with the proper high note, but the easiest way to break a glass is to simply drop it on the floor"

[kukalaka]

The world would be extremely dull if everybody was "normal".



And I'm reading "perverting homosexuality" all the time now, too.

[Mrs Vertigo]

Hey, wait a second there! I did NOT say homosexuality was ‘bad’! I said it was abnormal, yes, but that is because as a species, we are programmed to reproduce. In cold fact, not wishing to perpetuate one’s genes counts as abnormal.



I was not attaching any sort of moral value to that fact.



I did not mean an offence to either of you, or myself, or any gay person in the world.



I am not racist, I am not homophobic.



As for it being natural – alright, I was out of line, I take it back. I’m sorry, I was not aware of those things you mentioned about homosexuality occurring in animals as well. That completely changes it and you are right, and I was wrong.



As for it being hormonal – sexuality, homo or hetero, consists of a flow of hormones inside a brain. by saying it was hormonal i was stating that its NOT merely a physiological condition that has no real implications. I was saying, in my assbackwards way, that it’s REAL.



As for me assumingly being racist towards black people – for the love of god, that was completely ridiculous! I DO NOT discriminate African Americans! I will never be and never was even close to being racist towards them! That was a disgusting analogy to make.



I didn’t mean an insult to either of you. My point was not to bash homosexuality. Not at all. My point was that some of us are unhappy with their sexuality, that they would rather be straight. Those people should not be deceived and told they have a chance at it. Its unfair to them, especially when its disguised in spirituality and religion.



Do you want to know why I would prefer to be straight if I could? Because maybe then I would feel less of a deceiving bastard every time I gave a girl a compliment. Because some time ago I was really, really in love with some other girl and her reaction to my feelings scarred me so irreversibly I’m currently seeing a psychologist



I’m sorry if I offended any of you. My bitterness was not aimed at you, but rather at Dobson and, at some length, at myself.

[kpmuse]

Oh Amy and Ruth! What beautiful life experiences. Thanks for sharing! Yes, so good!



Edited because Kris never checks her spelling

Kristine


Tara & Willow Forever

Edited by: kpmuse at: 7/15/02 5:10:18 pm

[Dumbsaint]

Quote:

---

I said it was abnormal, yes, but that is because as a species, we are programmed to reproduce. In cold fact, not wishing to perpetuate one’s genes counts as abnormal.

---

Who said homosexuals don't wish to perpetuate their genes? Some of us can't wait to do it. Just, yanno, not exactly in the time-honored fashion.



Except for with Garfield.



And for the record, there are plenty of straight people out there who don't have any interest in "perpetuating their genes." I certainly don't think of them as abnormal.

"It's not real. I mean, there are no vampires, there are no witches. Well, there are Wiccans, but they're not making out with Alyson, so..." -Amber Benson

[xita]

Mrs Vertigo, I wrote this long reply and lost it so I hope I can say what I wanted to say.



I am sorry you've had a bad experience. But you know what, nothing is wrong with your sexuality. Homosexuality isn't wrong, it's society that's wrong. I have always had one philosophy in my life, do what you want as long you don't hurt others. And as a teenager I knew this would hurt my family deeply and I couldn't come to terms with that. Finally my gf, told me, " you aren't hurting them. It's society that's hurting them, all the things they have been taught are hurting them." And it made all the sense in the world to me.



It sounds to me like you've been hearing those same things for years and it makes me sad. I know the experience you had with that girl sounds really bad, but you didn't do anything, she has the problem, not you. You could have told the same thing to 100 girls and very few would have reacted similarly. Some people kill homosexuals because they think they were hit on. It's not the gay person's problem, it's the killer's fault. They have their own issues, likely to do with their own sexuality. What else would make them react like that? But that's society and the way people have been raised. We have so many nice people here on the board who are straight and gay people who will raise their children differently. Willow and Tara were making a difference, till grumble, grumble. Till then we deal with what we have, but it does not mean we live in shame. I read your post and read the shame and the self-hate. I am sorry if I sound condescending, but it's because I wish nothing more than for you to be able to walk down the street and be proud of who you are and the person you love, regardless of gender. Homosexuality is normal and natural. There is nothing more beautiful than love.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Oooh Xita!" - Amber Benson

Edited by: xita  at: 7/16/02 2:23:52 am

[maudmac]

Mrs Vertigo, you said:

Quote:

---

As for it being hormonal – sexuality, homo or hetero, consists of a flow of hormones inside a brain. by saying it was hormonal i was stating that its NOT merely a physiological condition that has no real implications. I was saying, in my assbackwards way, that it’s REAL.

---

However, in your original post, you said:

Quote:

---

Homosexuality is, whether we like it or not, a permanent hormonal disorder.

---

I understand what you were trying to say, but I got quite hung up on that word disorder.



You said:

Quote:

---

As for me assumingly being racist towards black people – for the love of god, that was completely ridiculous! I DO NOT discriminate African Americans! I will never be and never was even close to being racist towards them! That was a disgusting analogy to make.

---

I absolutely did not say that. I said:

Quote:

---

Much of American society was once opposed to African-Americans being anything other than property. Who in that situation bears the burden to change? Would you say that African-Americans have a permanent skin disorder?

---

Nowhere in there, nor in the rest of my post, did I say you are racist. I was drawing a parallel between two oppressed minorities and using that to illustrate that I feel that we should not change for society, rather they should change for us.



A charge of racism is a serious accusation to level at someone and one I would avoid without clear indications that the individual was indeed a racist. I did not say you are and I don't believe you are. It was a question both hypothetical and rhetorical.



I am very sorry you are not comfortable with your sexuality and I sincerely hope that some day you will be. I realize it can be a difficult journey, but I truly believe the destination is worth it.

---------------------------
I bring pie scented cleaner!--- weebl

[slayer747]

i tried re-reading the article, but i just can't make myself finish it... the guy is un-believable. though i have many opinions about what he said (re: the parts i was able to read) , i think you guys already argued it.



i actually just like to comment on him constantly referring to homosexuality as a "lifestyle" because it is not a lifestyle, it is simply "life". and i am actually enjoying my life as one.

------------
"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life." - Jessie "Once and Again"

[urnofosiris]

Mrs Vertigo, I am very sorry have gotten hurt simply for who you love or are attracted to.

I would encourage you to please hang around and read what other people here have to say and also to please consider what you yourself have said, for it does sound like you repeated some of the prejudices many societies have against gay people. I am not saying you are a homophobe, but maybe those homophobes have made you believe things about yourself and others that simply are not true. The fact that you did not know that homosexuality is common throughout different species illustrates that I think. The people who say homosexuality is against the natural order of things are incorrect, and if that is so then maybe they, and in this case you as well, are incorrect about other matters as well, such as:

Quote:

---

Hey, wait a second there! I did NOT say homosexuality was ‘bad’! I said it was abnormal, yes, but that is because as a species, we are programmed to reproduce. In cold fact, not wishing to perpetuate one’s genes counts as abnormal.

---

I could argue the programmed comment but the easiest reply would be to point out that there are a great many straight people, my brother being one of them, who do not want to procreate, and even take steps to prevent it. On the other hand there are a great many gay/bi/trans people who do want to procreate and who actually do so as well. Being gay has nothing to do with whether or not you want to have children, so being gay is not abnormal because of that, in fact being gay is not abnormal at all, and even if it is, so what? Well I know what, society what.



Maybe it is the human species, well or a certain part of it anyway, who should admit to the fact that is has not evolved past the very primal instinct of fearing that which is slightly different before claiming to be the ruling intelligence on this planet, but that really is a totally different argument. Sorry. Heh.

---------------------------


Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 7/16/02 2:31:01 am

[slayer747]

IMHO, dobson is so full of hate, i wonder what happened in his past that made him so angry (and repressed). i doubt that his views were inspired by the bible because as a catholic i know for a fact that jesus christ taught of love and compassion, not judgment and hatred. and i also know that it is not up to us to "save" others from the fires of hell since we are all sinners and are in need of salvation from the one who is in authority (i am not only saying christ, but this one goes for the muslims and other religions...) of all things that exist in the world. and if we insist to save others from hell, be it from the hell that we have right now -- the hell that society created for people who belong in the minority, the hell also known as prejudice.



also, many of us believe that everything happens for a (divine) reason and that god has everything already planned out for us, if dobson believes this, how could he not possibly believe that homosexuals are there for a (divine) reason as well (the reason, perhaps, is to show the world that we are all human beings and that is all that really matters).



dobson calls himself a man of faith, but he himself contradicts it. and not because the majority favors it, it automatically means that it is right, whatever "it" may be. and if he really is a follower of christ, he would understand that love is simply love. it takes on many forms and is beautiful in whichever form it is.



in addition, if being gay is "evil" why would god create gay people in the first place (face it, dobson, god created us, too!)? to add balance to the universe? that would be unfair and ridiculous since i believe in the existence of a just god.



it is not the business of human beings to analyze god and speculate how he/she (i happen to be a feminist ) makes his/her decisions about things, but simply to believe in him/her and his/her power to make evrything good at the end.



also, the bible is there as an instrument of hope, not of bigotry. it is there to show us all the wonderful things god is capable of giving us if we just believe. the bible is not an excuse to bash people just because they are different from the norms. it frustrates me how such a wonderful book could be turned to an excuse for people to hurt others simply because they not content and happy for who/what they are/have.



and again, just as i have said in my recent post, i would rather change the world than change myself. in that way, we all could celebrate our existence.



whew, i am in a very RARE form today. i am not trying to be preachy, but i sure hope i made sense (for a change, 'cause usually i just say whatever it is that pops in my head, and i really apologize esp. to the mods for that if it bothers you already).



and in the words of the red hot chili peppers, "catholic school girls rule!" -- though i believe that going to a liberal university is really the thing that worked for me... i can't stand confessions, but that's not your issue anymore .



and uh, mrs. vertigo, i sure hope you'll be able to accept and be comfortable with your sexuality really soon, i am no expert, but it is the way to be happy.

------------
"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life." - Jessie "Once and Again"