Butch, Queen...stereotypes in our lives and in the media

[maudmac]

I've noticed talk in other threads about GLBT stereotypes (and have discussed it myself about a trillion times) and it got me thinking that it would be nice for these issues to have a thread of their own.



How do we perceive GLBT stereotypes in our day-to-day lives? As part of the amazing diversity we have within our community? Are we ashamed of some of our stereotypes? Are you a stereotype?



How do we deal with the media's portrayal of us as stereotypes? Is it valid, because it does reflect the reality of certain GLBT folks' lives? Or is it harmful to the community, making us all look bad? Making us look bad to whom?



Most discussion of stereotypes seems to focus on what people perceive as negative stereotypes, although whether they're negative or not is often part of the debate. But what of positive stereotypes?



That was just some general overview stuff. I think this could be a lively and interesting discussion.

---

Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

[Isychos]

You're right, most people focus on negative stereotypes (STs). I personally don't blame any type of media, but instead place the blame on those individuals that use them to harm other people. But I think the real hard question that I am perceiving from your thread is can positive STs have a negative impact on a social group. I feel the answer is yes.



In my own personal life I deal with certain ethnic STs that people consider to be gospel. And in thinking that one is true will lead to the conclusion that another is true. An example would be someone sees that I am an Italian and notices that I am very protective and loyal to my family. Well, if they think that ST is true, then why not believe the other ST that my family is a bunch of murderous mobsters so I should stay away.



An example more relative to this board would be the ST that all homosexuals are friendly and passive. So if one should meet a friendly and passive homosexual then they why wouldn't they think other STs are true?



For every ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, political standing, and gender there are going to be positive and negative STs. And in thinking that one is true will almost certainly lead one to believe the others are true. I would like to think that our society will be able to do away with such things, but I don't believe human nature will allow it. For some reason humans have a strange desire to class, label, and sort every individual aspect are our lives.

The only thing we can hope to do is start with ourselves. To not think of people as gay, black, white, jew, italian, or any other label we have concocted, and just think of each other as people. Just people.



I apologize if that got kind of boring and soapboxy.

The sky is blue and all the leaves are green. The sun's as warm as a baked potato. I think I know precisely what I mean, When I say it's a Shpadoinkle day.

[maudmac]

Ah, Isychos, I get what you're saying. That even the positive stereotypes might harm a community because people who buy into them are probably going to be more likely to buy into the negative ones as well. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can see your point. (If that was your point, of course. ) That's probably true.



I'm uncomfortable with seeing stereotypes reinforced most of the time. It's just so easy to disregard the full range of a community if you see us/them in such simplistic terms. So it makes me a little itchy when I see it, because I think there are going to be other people seeing the same thing who will say, "See? See, I told you, ___ people are ____!" And that kind of generalization just can never be true.



I know I'm a stereotype in many ways and I know that I've been disregarded (as well as treated with open hostility) because people won't make the effort to find out that the fact that I'm X thing doesn't preclude me from also being a whole lot of other things. Furthermore, what's wrong with being X thing?



But I also know that I didn't craft my proclivities from the ground up for the sole purpose of fitting into one stereotype or another. I didn't craft them at all; I just naturally am like what I'm like. Period.



So...I reinforce some stereotypes and I don't like that...but I'm not going to not be what I am because of what others might think.



It's complicated.



Life is interesting.

---

Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

[LostWithoutTara]

I'm really glad we've now got an actual thread for this discussion. STs have never failed to sadden me, and although I accept that stereotypes must have a basis for existence I hate the way people expect me to conform to them. Even worse is the way the media constantly perpetuates them.



Obviously, this is particularly bad for us GLBT folk. While I know that some people do have stereotypical attributes, and that these are not necessarily bad (nor these people negative or responsible for the perpetuation of such stereotypes). But I just damn well hate it!!!!!



I'm gay, and proud of this fact. But I am getting fed up with being told that because of this I should act either as some campy queen fem guy (Jack on Will and Grace, Andrew on Buffy, Graham Norton) or as a socially remedial wisecracking person (Will, Will and Grace and loads of others I can't be bothered to list). It's sad that there are so few GLBT relationships on TV that don't conform to the old stereotypes/cliches. W/T is about the only one I can think of, and that's simply saddening (and think of how that was ruined).



Even programmes such as 'Queer as Folk' use m/m sex as a shock value, and that offends me even more. Is is too much to ask that we just have a couple of 'normal' healthy relationships with two people who actually love each other? I don't get why society thinks this is too much to ask.



Oh, sorry, rant over...

[dekalog]

What has always affected and concerned me is the way that a stereotype affects the person within that community. For example when I was growing up being a lesbian was seen as a certain 'type'. I wasn't that type therefore I wasn't a lesbian.



After coming to terms with the fact that, yes, I in fact did REALLY like girls I forced myself (I was 15) to try to act like the stereotype. It took till I was in my early twenties to stop trying to fit into the lesbian stereotype that I grew up with.



To this day I still have trouble calling myself a lesbian without a hesitation (prefer queer, or hi, I like girls). Even some of the traits of 'the stereotype', which when I see in straight women I don't bat an eye I have had to work hard on not frowning on in other gay women.



To me the way stereotypes affect us is, in a way, just another flavour of internalized homophobia (or racism, or sexism, or...). Stereotypes are damaging to us both from the way others see us, yes, but more importantly to how we see ourselves and others like us.



A good example of this negativity in the 'gay community' is the current trend to disparage 'faggy men, and dykey girls'. Just like a few years ago I remember hearing similar comments about people who were 'straight-acting'. Bottom line is that these comments hurt no matter who you are, and I don't see where they are helpful.

[sprhrgrl]

Like dekalog said, "I forced myself (I was 15) to try to act like the stereotype" . . .



I work with the San Diego Gay Youth Alliance and it's so depressing to see all these girls coming out and then butching up. We have discussions much like this one occasionally at our meetings, and so often there are discussions about how girls with long hair don't feel like they're lesbians. It's both in and out of the "community." It's often because their friends and families tell them that they aren't butch so they can't be dykes, but also because they think it will make them more attractive to girls.



And it does. When you cut you hair off, it's like saying, "LOOK, I'M A LESBIAN!" to the world. Pride rings and stuff can do that, but it's not so blatantly obvious. It sucks that we so often rely on stereotypes to identify one another, but it's not like we all have an inverted triangle on our foreheads. It's not like that story where all The Gays turned blue for a day. . .



So I don't know. Such mixed feelings on stereotypes. I always try to remember that stereotypes are generally based on past truths, and that helps me be more tolerant of them.



But the number of queer women with short hair (and I'm one of 'em) is often overwhelming.



That was going to be the end, but I just remembered. My friend Brea was talking about her stylistic changes since she'd come out, and she brought up how she'd always tried to dress cute and femme to attract boys, and how now she didn't have to do that and could dress how she wanted. I thought that was interesting, especially since it seems to relate the dykes (/feminists) with body hair/no bras rebelling against societal beauty standards blah blah blah. It makes sense too - I like my short hair and hairy legs because I can be lazier and spend much less time "grooming" myself.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

Edited by: sprhrgrl  at: 7/18/03 4:23 am

[3peanuts]

Oh great: I've been a stereotype butch for most of my life, at the moment I'm a stereotype lipstick lesbian. I call it my Trans phase...



There's something familiar in stereotypes: btw they make feel home. I don't think they are such a big deal till someone says idiot things about them.



I have issues with the bi stereotype I can't manage: everybody's always told me bi people are "evil". Now my girl is kinda bi: and sometimes I feel a shit about the things I say due to this imprinting about bis being not reliable and stuff.



How stupid of me.

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[Serendipitydoodaa]

I personally don't have a problem with Bi's...I think it's monogamy which is crucial. The first part of my early 20's I had b/f's, feeling unsure where my stand in my sexuality was. I'm confident it's women I've always preferred and now, I'm very comfortable with it. I, too, am a femme type and also have a taste (um, metaphorically) for those of the femme/lipsticky persuasion, too. The stereotypical 'butches' and 'boi's' do get a lot of flack in the gay community and the straight one, as well. I've heard more comments from those I know saying, "If they wanted to date a butch, why not date a man?" Ouch. I suppose there a lots of women who prefer the outward, rugged appearance of those of short hair and big shoulders, protective and teddy bearish, yet comes complete with feminine components. People come in all types, shapes and sizes and labeling will always be prevelant...I guess we all just have our preferences.

[3peanuts]

Prejudices are always disguised as "good reasons" and it's not easy to escape from them even if we consider ourselves open minded persons...

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

[Isychos]

You hit my point right on the head maudmac.



I also agree with you that one should not act a certain way because of what they are, and one should not be generalized by the way they act. I will always love and be loyal to my family regardless of wether I am stereotyped or not, but I am also not going to act like a hitman just because it fits the majorities image of what I should be.



I saw some posts that made reference to the short hair issue with lesbians. We all know that being lesbian doesn't mean having short hair and that having short hair means being a lesbian. The choice of hair length should be a matter of what one likes. I personally think that all people look better with long hair. (except for a few guys I've seen with that long hair thats greasy and stringy. You know, where you just want to take them to the nearest river and throw them a bottle of shampoo.) And now I have completely lost myself on where I was going with this so I am just going to stop now and maybe edit it later.



Edited to add

3peanuts : I know what you mean. As much as I try not to have any prejudices I do find myself from time to time thinking or even making an off the cuff comment that I can't believe I said or even thought. What can I say. I'm only human.

The sky is blue and all the leaves are green. The sun's as warm as a baked potato. I think I know precisely what I mean, When I say it's a Shpadoinkle day.

Edited by: Isychos at: 7/18/03 6:01 pm

[Gatito Grande]

I have so much to say on this, that it's overwhelming (also, I don't want to repeat myself from other threads).



I still don't know where my head is at (as it were), when it comes to hair. Being the Closet Case I am (pathetic but true), I've usually resisted having my hair stereotypically "dykey" . . . except for several years, while I was (gulp!) married to a guy. I liked it, but I also kinda like it longer (Tarzan-look!): so I compromise, and just clip the 'burns now.



Wanna send a shout out to LostWithoutTara: did you happen to see Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (discussed over on the Movie/TV thread)? I wonder what you thought of that---the stereotypes on parade. Good or bad?



What doe it mean to be butch or femme? Prefer your own kind, or prefer the other? What does it mean to not ID as either? Both, at different times? And do the stereotypes always go w/ the type, or can they go against them (e.g. short-haired femme/long-haired butch. Can a butch like lipstick? I mean, on herself!)?



Here's a mindbender for y'all: I was at an FTM conference in '99, wherein a trannyfag* called a femme-loving-butch there "basically heterosexual": I thought said butch was going to blow a gasket!



I have no answers, none. I just think the world is (thankfully!) polymorphously perverse and leave it at that!



GG As ye harm none, do as ye please Out



*In case some you don't know, a transfag (in an FTM context), is a person born female-bodied, transitioned to male, and prefers other men (bio or not).

[friskylez]

Even in our own community and in this thread stereotypes abound..Why is that someone who labels themselves butch has to be broad shouldered and wear flannel shirts or wants to be a guy? Or the biggest laugh, wants to show shes a dyke? Puhlease



I wore dresses when i was young, but i was like a fish out of water..does that mean i like wearing suits and ties, nope..Some butches do some dont..Some male identify, some dont..



Best way to find out what someone who calls themselves butch is about is to talk to them..dont assume, dont stereotype, dont say we are trying to look lesbian..im just being me..Thats it, thats all there is to it..



And to answer the question, if a butch is comfortable wearing makeup then they will wear it, if not they wont..Just because youre butch doesnt mean there are butch rules that you have to follow..That kind of thinking comes from stereotypes, not truth...



And yes there is discrimination for lack of a better word in the lesbian community towards those that might label themselves butch..Ive seen it heard it, lived it..You dont know me, dont know what im about, so dont assume..



Sad thing is in the "lesbian community" im ostracized cause im trying to look like a dyke for being butch..In the butch femme community, im probably not butch enough..Itd be nice if people got to know ya before they made assumptions..



Leaving now cause this subject gets my dander up..Peace..Friskybutch

[sprhrgrl]

Quickly, GG, the comment at the end of your thread - isn't that exactly why a lot of people tried to battle the butch/femme dichotomy? Not because they dislike the stereotypes, per se, but just because it's so homogenous?

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[LostWithoutTara]

GG - I avoided Queer Eye For The Straight Guy like the plague, and from what I have seen, I'm glad I did. While I have no problem with these guys if their behaviour is their own natural behaviour, it really irks me that the media always picks up on the stereotypes. And what's the betting they were acting up for the camera?



What about the men and women who don't really fit the stereotype, and why do people feel the need to conform?



The interesting thing in the butch/femme dom/sub debate is that society has prescribed that gay and lesbian relationships should still conform to a standard masculine/feminine pattern. Again, people should be able to dress/wear their hair/act however they want, and if this is right for them, that's great.



So I'd like to throw the question out to the Kittens - do you feel pressurised to conform to masculine/feminine roles within your relationships, even if they don't necessarily fit your or your partner's personalities?

[friskylez]

Good grief, so phuckin what if someone is a queen or a butch, whatever..THey are part of the gay community, it was the drag queens at Stonewall that started the gay rights movement for christ sake..



Why instead of thumbing your nose at someone who is a butch or a queen, why dont you get to know them and not make the assumptions you are making?



We are no more trying to look or be different being who we are than you are trying to be straight by looking like or being who you are..



If someone is different so what, why does that bother you, everyone is different, that applies to the gay community as well..Why does anyone in the straight communitys opinion of who or what gays are matter?



Im just being myself, so are the queens and the drag queens and the dykes..Someone isnt a "queenlike" or "butch" to make a statement..THats just who they are..Dont you get that..



If you dont, then get to know someone like that, youll see thats who they are, they can no more change and be like you than you can be like them..



Those in the gay community who put their brothers and sisters down are perpetuating the discriimination that happens within our very own community..



When i first came out in 1979 everyone came together, you had to, it was us against them..Now that being gay is a little more accepted, everyone wants to be the same, they want the straight community to see that we are just like them..Well not everyone is..



Ive been in a few relationships and let me tell ya, ive never been with someone who was the "little woman" to my being butch..Its a 50/50 relationship..



you are perpetuating what the str8 community thinks about gay relationships by even discussing it..I can see that some of you feel the same as they do..Just look at what you have said and written..You are putting down others in your community for being who they are..



If you havent walked in someone elses shoes how in the hell can you presume to know or discuss who or what they are about? Thats like me discussing what its like to be black or hispanic or whatever..



I have no idea what they go thru in everyday life, so how can you know or discuss who or what i am about? Oh because youve "seen" one and you know what they are about, right...



Hmmm she has short hair, wears jeans and tshirts and is with someone who is feminine, look at them in their male/female roles..Sheesh that is so far from the truth..



In most butch femme relationships the femme is the one who is more dominant/in control..depends on the people in the relationship, just like any other "regular" relationship..



Stop making assumptions, you only hurt those who are a part of your community and cause a bigger divide within the community..

[LostWithoutTara]

friskylez - you make a lot of very good points in your post.



Firstly, I apologise if my post made it seem as if I was thumbing my nose at anybody - I don't have a problem with the way anyone acts/looks etc if they're being them. I believe I said that in my post. I think the problem lies when the media always portrays one image of a group of people and therefore misrepresents them. That doesn't mean that the represented image is 'wrong' in any way, just that the media needs to open its eyes. Take QEFASG, for example. The guys there are being themselves - that's cool, but why can't the programme makers have a number of men with different backgrounds/views etc? The queen/butch stereotypes (and I mean the stereotypes of queens/butches here, not the actual people) have aquired pejorative connotations from straight society, and if straight society always selects to portray just this one stereotype the rest of the community is ignored and more damage than good may be done.



You're right, we shouldn't have to give a f*** about what straights think about us. But we have to educate them. Sadly, it's the straights who are dictating whether or not we can get married, (and some of them) inventing anti-sodomy laws, and persecuting us. We have to open those individual's eyes. That's why we need more W/Ts - to simply show a loving relationship between two people of the same sex that isn't for shock value or ratings.

Quote:

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Hmmm she has short hair, wears jeans and tshirts and is with someone who is feminine, look at them in their male/female roles..Sheesh that is so far from the truth..

---

As this point is more pertinent to my question, I wouldn't say that a couple like the one described were acting in male/female roles. They're simply being who they are. My post was asking if people feel pressured to fit into roles, not assuming that if a couple appears to do that than they must be conforming and being untrue to themselves.

Edited by: LostWithoutTara at: 7/19/03 9:37 am

[xita]

There are many good issues here.



Without getting into my personal stance on it or how I see myself, the general issues are: I think people either are themselves or play a role for a reason, some social some political. But there is a great variety of people in the glbt communities.



Speaking of media, this is where it gets tricky. I think that for jokes there is nothing easier than for the media to hit the stereotypes. That's what disturbs me the most. Will and Grace to me has always been a joke to me. I don't see why GLAAD fawned over it for so long. I think it creates very bad examples of gay life. And I think it erases what for most of us is at the crux of being gay and that's love and god that's just not present.



I think another thing that gets me with lesbians in media is that they always have femme women in the movies and shows. It seems as if butch women can only be seen as jokes. It's why I liked the second part of "If these walls could talk." It dealt with that issue but that's really only one story.



Perhaps stereotypes wouldn't hurt us so much online if they weren't treated as such, if queens and butches were treated as human beings and shown to have the depth that other people do. That queens can be brave, that butches can be tender. That we all can share love and are more than just those things that people make fun of us for.



Ok, that's it for now, but I have thoughts on, gender roles in relationships and the ways the stereotypes are viewed within the community!

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[Gatito Grande]

friskylez, I'm really confused about where you're coming from, and your defensive attitude:

Quote:

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you are perpetuating what the str8 community thinks about gay relationships by even discussing it..I can see that some of you feel the same as they do..Just look at what you have said and written..You are putting down others in your community for being who they are..

---

To discuss is to condemn? Because I haven't seen any condemnation. Do we have to censor our words (thoughts?)---here on the K?



I happen to think that knowledge is power, and the best knowledge comes from dialogue: we can never have too much discussion of these (or any other) issues. Just as important, I can't imagine a safer place for discussing them than the Kitten.



I'm really eager to hear as many POVs as I can on this topic, from all different ages, genders, sexualities and, um, attitudes, roles and/or presentations (w/ or w/o accompanying stereotypes). I don't think that talking about butch/femme, King/Queen (or sub/dom, as LWT mentioned) locks any or all of us into these "attitudes/roles/presentations," or even dictates the parameters of same. There can be a zillion different types of butches, femmes, all or none of the above (and none are more or less legitimately queer than any other type).



Like that Rainbow bumpersticker I used to have said, we oughta Celebrate Diversity, and not be afraid to explore it in all its infinite parameters (sounding a little Vulcan here, aren't I? )



Let the discussion continue---let the thread bloom.



GG And we're all "Beautiful, Dammit!" Out

[Lt Sticks]

just saw this thread, and thought id add my little opinion



This guy Ive known for ages, and just came out to, has been acting such a jerk, and I asked him why, and he came out with this crap about how all lesbians are (and these are his words quoted exactly) "man hating dykes". As a result Im not speaking to him now, which has now convinced him that his assumption was correct God i hate ppl like that.



~Sticks

A fire in my heart, reborn from the ashes...just call me Phoenix



I'm Under Your Spell, nothing I can do, you just took my soul with you...

[NicTacToe]

This is only my second post to the board after my introduction, but I felt this was a good place to start, as this is a topic that has been on my mind of late.



I have never been a big fan of labels and generalizations period, much of that coming from being bisexual (if I have to attach a label to myself) and dealing with many of the stereotypes of bi's from both the straight and gay communities. I have realized, however, how many queer stereotypes are unconsciously internalized in so many of us, including myself.



I try to be "myself" in everyday situations neither "butch" nor "femme" - I have long hair and probably always will, but never wear makeup. I don't usually like wearing anything but jeans and a t-shirt, but enjoy getting dolled up in a dress once in a while, and could probably beat most of my male friends at arm wrestling. And while these things never change, I find the way I view myself changes depending on the company I'm in. I'm not proud of this fact, but I definitely act differently when I'm in mostly straight company than when in predominantly gay company.



I definitely adopt a more "butch" persona when I know there are lesbians around that I may have potential with, as if I either have to prove my queerness to them, or try not to be mistaken for a strictly straight girl. I worry that they'll see my shaved legs and long hair and think I can't really be interested in girls. But why do I feel like I have to try to conform to a mold that doesn't really exist? My last girlfriend was one of the "girliest girls" I've ever met, but no one questioned her gayness. People of all sexual orientations come in all different outward packages, yet many pay lip service to this fact and still subscribe to the mainstream view of what gays/lesbians should act like.



I find it frustrating and odd that society holds a sort of double standard between the media and real life. It was mentioned above that the media tends to portray mostly femme lesbians and leave the butches for peripheral characters or comic relief, yet in the real world, some women often feel like being too femme makes them less gay in some way.



I don't know...I think I had a point when I started writing this but lost it somewhere. Haha.



I guess it's just that we should all just act as we naturally would instead of trying to conform to artificial stereotypes, and be outspoken in both straight and queer communities about how a shared sexual orientation doesn't mean similar personalities, wardrobes, etc, any more than people with the same hair color or race will all act the same way.

[friskylez]

Xita, first let me say that i really appreciate what you had to say and i think if everyone saw that part of If these Walls could Talk, the story you are talking about, a better understanding might take place..Thank you..



GG, Im defensive because i have been ostracized in my own community for being who i am and im damn tired of it, thats why..



If you want to have a discussion thats fine, ill discuss with you..But general statements that are made with regard to peoples opinions does not a discussion make..Its a commentary rather than a discussion..



Anyway, thank you again Xita for your eloquent and heartfelt words..

[sprhrgrl]

friskylez, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I feel that I have been contributing to this conversation how I feel. I said that there are babydykes butching up to show that they're dykes, and I stand by that. I'm not saying that they are butch, I'm saying that they're adhering to a stereotype. The world has labeled that stereotype butch, but if you feel that there's a different definition (or lack thereof) of the term, great. The kids I'm talking about are just one handful, and many full hands to make a world.



"Best way to find out what someone who calls themselves butch is about is to talk to them..dont assume, dont stereotype, dont say we are trying to look lesbian..im just being me..Thats it, thats all there is to it.."



Yes. I'm going to generalize here and say that most people are trying to be themselves. Some people choose to label themselves and that's fine, a personal choice. Others get labeled, and that's where things turn into stereotypes. I think that a lot of the discussion on this thread comes from an attempt to discuss what those stereotypes are and perhaps the origin of them, in order to better combat them. But perhaps I'm seeing things wrong.



"And to answer the question, if a butch is comfortable wearing makeup then they will wear it, if not they wont..Just because youre butch doesnt mean there are butch rules that you have to follow..That kind of thinking comes from stereotypes, not truth..."



(nod) I took a trans survey and then went and bought makeup with the compensation. Does that make me a bad genderqueer? A bad butchdyke? No. It makes me a person who wants to buy makeup. My girlfriend has long hair and wore a skirt to prom, where I wore a tux. That doesn't assign either of us gender roles, it is solely an aspect of how we chose to present ourselves in one short moment of our lives.



We thought about presenting visibly categorizable gender stereotypes for a night, and decided to go with it because, frankly, we felt like it. I had trouble that night dressed the way I was because I was in a very femme place that evening. . . It was also sad because the other queer couple at prom was also polarized, and so I'm afraid that people previously ignorant of dyke dynamics are going to assume from what they saw that one night that all lesbian couples fall along the divide we presented that evening. . .



(shrug)

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[friskylez]

Welll im afraid i havent studied "dyke dynamics" nor did i even know it existed..All i know is im a lesbian who because labels are a necessity sometimes, tell people im butch



In the b/f world im probably not as butch as some but butcher than others..What does that mean, nothing at all, its just who i am..



Its not about what you "look" like and therein lies the perpetuation of a stereotype..Its more of an attitude than anything else..



Why do you think when someone gets more aggressive, more whatever, they calling it "butching up"? Not cause someone looks more butch but its their behavior and attitude..



I dont wear dresses cause im out of my comfort zone...Some guys wear drag and they are so out of place its ridiculous...



For others drag is as natural for them as wearing a suit and tie for someone else..Its a persona, an attitude and yes sometimes it can be a look..But "looking" something isnt the end all be all to what makes someone butch or queen..



If you saw The bird cage, my favorite part that explains everything is when Nathan Lane puts on a suit and tie and he says "im even more obvious now, arent i"..



Why? He was in a suit, he looked like a guy, looked straight, but when he spoke or he gestured, it was pretty obvious..Thats it in a nutshell...



You cant change who you are inside, its made even more obvious when you try to be someone else..

[maudmac]

I'm neither butch nor femme myself. Or, well, that's how I think of myself, anyway. Some people who know me might disagree with that assessment. But what matters most is how I see myself. And I don't see myself as either, but really a combination of both.



That said, though, when I stated previously that I am a stereotype, it wasn't a butch/femme thing I was talking about at all. I'm into the vegetarian, hairy armpits, sandalwood, Birkenstocks, Gaia...moon...menstrual life-force power thingy blah blah stuff. Yeah, I've hugged a tree or two. For real. I honestly think that granola is really good. So...I'm a fucking joke to a lot of people. And absolute walking goddamn joke to them. And a lot of that comes from other lesbians, which is distinctly unpleasant.



At a point in time, I think it bothered me, but by now in my life, I'm quite happy to tell anyone who's got a problem with who and what I am to fuck off. I'm open to joking around about it, because I can see the humor in it, but if they've really got a problem with it, they can go to hell. I'm not making room in my life for someone who thinks that me eating tofu and not shaving my legs tells them all they need to know about me. It doesn't and if they disregard me because of it, it's their loss. Fuck 'em.



[End of Holley's Crunchy Dyke Defense Speech.]



About the butch/femme thing... My impression is that a good chunk of the lesbian community now sees the butch/femme dynamic as archaic. I get why they'd think that, but the flaw in that is that pressure to not be butch or femme is just as harmful to us as pressure to be one or the other. At a point in time (I'm talking way pre-Stonewall here), there was tremendous pressure to be butch or femme and there was no room for something in between the two (or entirely outside that dynamic altogether). That must have been stifling for women who had to conform, to be something they weren't in order to be accepted by their sisters as a bona fide lesbian.



So, as it became more acceptable (within the lesbian community) for a woman to, say, have short hair, drive a truck, and wear makeup or for a woman to wear dresses and bake cakes when she wasn't fixing her Harley, I can see the motivation to go too far, to outright reject the validity of the butch/femme dynamic. Rigid adherence to that dynamic - I mean the belief that all lesbians must be one or the other - wasn't good for us and we're healthier without those self-imposed restrictions.



I think the whole butch/femme thing might very well be the most contentious issue we have amongst ourselves. Because there is quite a lot of butch- and femme-phobia within the lesbian community. (Well, and all kinds of other phobias and -isms as well, of course.) But there are also a whole lot of lesbians embracing a butch or femme identity who resent the notion that they are throwbacks, because they are only being what they naturally are.



I don't think anyone here has taken an anti-butch/femme stance. We are having a dialogue about stereotypes. It's gonna come up sooner or later. We need to educate ourselves about these things as much as we seek to educate others. Talking about these things is the only way that's gonna happen.

---

Pussy crack corn...and I don't care! -- Margaret Cho

[sprhrgrl]

You know, you all should listen to the Tribe 8 song "Estrofemme." I hope it's okay if I post the lyrics here, because I think they relate well to the subject of discussion and who writes songs about stereotypes within the queer community anyway? If you haven't heard the song, the quotes are when they're doing different voices. Sorta.

gonna take a shower. gonna do my hair. gonna put on make-up so boychicks will stare. all plucked and preening. high heels stepping out. it's what you think of me that i'm so uptight about. i'm so cute. i'm so dumb. c'mon baby, let's have some fun. i'm so pretty, i'm so femme. call me lipstick lesbian. "why look like men if you hate 'em? why can't you wear a dress?" "more woman than you'll ever be, more man than you'll ever get." "i only pitch, i never catch." "i'm a pillow queen." yeah, right. slave to my stereotype. "i won't go down history but i'll go down on your sister." "i'm just a tool of the patriarchy, a straight girl with a twist." so i'm strapping on my uzi and this beavis sez to me, "have you ever been mistaken for a man?" i said "no, have you?" so he called me a dyke and i said "yeah, right. that's mr. dyke to you." slave to my stereotype. tell me what i look like. say i'm not a real dyke. she's so lovely in the end, she'll be won over by a man. vanity, vanity, i'm losing my sanity. vanity, vanity. who needs personality. i'm a femme so hot you'll want to tear off all my clothes. i'm a babe so fine you'll want to chew my pantyhose. i'm so worried what my girlfriend thinks. does she like my cunt, does she think it stinks? excuse me for the shape i'm in. i'm a slave to my estrogen.

So yeah.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[friskylez]

Holly, i appreciate what you said about "discussing" topics like b/f, gender identity and anything along those lines. Point well taken...



Some of the bravest souls in the gay community are the drag queens, the butches and even butch femme couples because they risk their lives everyday for being who they are..Just ask Brandon Teena or Matthew Shepard, oh but thats right you cant..



I know there are some here and in the gay community at large that would have the nerve to say "well if they didnt dress this way or didnt act like that they wouldnt be risking their lives"..



id say how dare you..To say someone who is being themselves is asking to be harassed and beaten up is like saying a woman asked to be raped..



To those younger lesbians on the board, id say the gay community is about diversity, acceptance and tolerance..Analyze all ya want, but if you really want to know what the b/fs, the drag queens or those who have a gender identity crisis are all about, talk to them...



I post on a butch/femme board, hell thats where i discovered it was ok to be me..A really wonderful community that is discussing the issues you are at this very moment..



Id recommend going over there and discussing it with the very people you are talking about..I think youd find it an eye opening experience, even reading some of their other discussions..



I invited some of them to come on this board and post on this topic, but none have taken me up on it yet...I hope they will, in the meantime im going to post the link here and invite those of you who say you want to learn and understand to go there and do just that..



Its a wonderfully diverse group of people, just being who they are, youve got butches who pack, femmes who ride harleys and fix their own cars and yes you will find a plethora of what youd call stereotypical butches and femmes..



You may even think youve gone back to the "5os" but you will find its not about playing a role for those good people, its about being who they are and not caring what anyone else thinks..Thats the bravest of souls if you ask me..



here is the link www.butch-femme.com/portal/



Peace...

[sprhrgrl]

It's interesting, friskylez, because I feel a lot like you're directing your comments at me. . . And I have no idea whether or not you are, but that's what I'm getting. . . And it's odd because I. . .



I'm binding and packing tomorrow - today. I already know this, that's the place I'm in. I'm going to a conference where I'm going to do my damndest to pass, even with this crappy mullety hair I have.



Two days ago I was at the conference, the day I met Amber, and I was a femme goth girl. The day before that I was a granola dyke. I like labels only when I can place them on myself.



In any of the roles I could be stereotyped against. All of the communities I present as, pretty much, are hated. There are different levels of hatred, yes, but it stands that everyone's judged.



I'm going to wander off to your link later today. . . If I go to sleep now I can still maybe four hours in before I have to get ready.



Remember when I mentioned grooming and laziness? That's one reason I don't fully project myself so often - I'm too lasy to fully play the part I want to.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[friskylez]

Spphrgirl, Nope not at all..Im just trying to figure out where this talk of lesbians having to fit a certain mold comes from..I have never felt like there was a certain

"look" to a lesbian..



For me a lesbian is a lesbian is a lesbian..I dont care what she wears, whether she wears makeup, dresses, birkenstocks, has a crew cut or doesnt shave her pits..



A lesbian to me a woman who is attracted to and loves other women..So where the idea that someone who is a lesbian has to look a certain way or they are not a dyke came from, i dont know..



Maybe those here have encountered a few "old school" dykes that made comments or said something to or about you..If so, I say so what, just be yourselves..



As Holly said, if other lesbians cant except me for who i am phuck em..They dont want to get to know me , then they are missing out on getting to know someone who is a good person, has a good heart..Will stand up for them regardless of how they feel about me.



There is great diversity within the gay community, from the b/fs, to the leather community, to the drag queens..

Nothing wrong with that, it just lets people know that there are as many different kinds of queers as there are str8s..



You cant get inside anyones head and try to figure them out..You will either understand based on talking to the b/fs, drag queens, transgendered whomever, or you will never understand..Experience is the best teach IMO..



Anyway, i still get very defensive when this particular discussion comes up...Didnt mean to offend anyone or say they are wrong in their opinions..More power to ya in your discussion..Rock on..Peace out..

[xita]

I wouldn't want people taking the discussion elsewhere or narrowing this thread to just butch/femme, because it is about the broad spectrum of stereotypes.



I also didn't see anyone in this thread suggesting that people who had violence perpetrated against them deserved it and had it coming. Let's be careful with the accusations , I want this thread to be safe.



I think there is definitely a prejudice against the extreme stereotypes in our communities, you see it in the personal ads that often state right away no-butches, or whatever. I would never want to narrow my search for love in that manner.



I used to dress butch before I got my teaching job. I will admit to having grown my hair specifically to avoid problems at work. I don't feel that's the case anymore though as I am an out member of my staff and I know my contract protects gays and lesbians specifically. I am very comfortable with the way I am. No amount of social pressure is going to make me wear a dress or start wearing make up. If I ever did any of those things it would be because I wanted to.



How can we communicate better between each other without hostility?



Here's another issue that's bothering me. I've lived in 2 cities in California, and the communities were different and the acceptable "gay" look was different in both but there was still a look. In SF the look accepted more butch, but there was definitely a style you had to follow. When I came to LA the look was "femme" all would wear long hair etc. The thing is I preferred neither but I did get pretty fed up with having to fit in. I honestly do not participate in active city gay life because I felt it was another box I was putting myself in, another set of peer pressures to confine me. I remember in college, I try to narrow myself further trying to find community. I joined a group for latino gays and lesbians. Instead of fitting in I found I couldn't and was harrassed for it. I decided after that , that the community was not for me. I long to get back in it for to help young people, volunteer , etc. Honestly, those pressures keep me away.



I think it's true for gay men as well. My best guy friend is gay and he doesn't fit any of the stereotypes. He wants to find love, and settle down, but he doesn't fit in to that "gym" mentality that the gay men in LA are way into. Still 0 luck for him trying to find the kind of guy he is looking for.



That promiscuity and shallowness "Queer as Folk" represents something imagined or something that is promoted within the gay community. Certainly not all gay men are like that, we had one post here that isn't, and I know my friend isn't, but doesn't it seem that way when you look around in the so called out "gay community?"



When you go to gay events sometimes isn't it weird how similar looking everyone is?

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[Ittybittykitty]

I can't say that I've never been stereotyped, I have. I can't say I've never stereotyped, I have.



The one truth that I have found in my eighteen years is that people are people, and stereotypes are used to de-humanise people so that they can be persecuted.



Just something to think about.

"Well, if you blew a hundred bucks, we'd better make it worth your while," Tara said dragging Willow back into the laundry room and closing the door.-Happily Ever After