Writing Discussion

[AntigoneUnbound]

Technopagan--As I read your reply, I could understand the pull of descriptive richness. (Rich description? Take your pick...) I definitely spend abundant amounts of time in my own head; probably reflects some underlying self-absorption which I'll examine later. (I'm only half-joking here...)



Patches, I am so pulled to good characters that I'll follow them through just about any plot. The very best, I find, is when the plot fits the characters; that is, I could certainly envision these people doing these things. It makes sense. When that happens, it's a very organic or natural flow between character and action, regardless of the action. Anne Lamott, in "Bird by Bird," says: "Plot grows out of character. If you focus on who the people in your story are, if you sit and write about two people you know and are getting to know better day by day, something is bound to happen. Characters should not, conversely, serve as pawns for some plot you've dreamed up. Any plot you impose on your characters will be onomatopoetic: PLOT." I love this advice, probably because it plays to what I believe my strengths are as a writer; that is, I'm better at character than action. Or so I tell myself.



Just thinkin' out loud here...

Mary

[Kieli]

Oddly enough, the subject of "detail vs. too much detail" came up between myself and a friend of mine. While I like for writers to have a certain amount of attention to detail, I find that, even with the published, more accomplished writers, I tend to just skip right over the ridiculously detailed passages in their books. I find that sometimes the story can get too bogged down with details, to the point where my eyes glaze over and my attention span wanders for a chapter or two. Is it just me having a really bad case of ADD or do other writers (or writers to be) go through this?

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

[Lesbadar]

Quick reply for JustSkipIt. I'm not stalking you though I did respond to your post on alternative names for mother.



Just reading through the writing discussion and saw the quote about "staring at a blank piece of paper until your forehead bleeds". It's one of my favourite quotes and I too didn't know where it came from. You peaked my curiousity and thank god for google "quotations about writing" turned up



Fowler, Gene: "Writing is easy. All you have to do is stare at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead"



here's the url if you're interested.

www.stlcc.cc.mo.us/fp/wri...AMQUOT.PDF



Darlene

[technopagan78]

On the question can there be too much detail, for me, no. When my eyes glaze over, the problem isn't too much detail. For me the problem lies with unnecessary detail. I might need to know the general layout of a room, that there is a couch, two easy chairs, a fireplace, pictures on the walls, a clock on the mantle, etc. It might be important for me to know if the couch is a six foot blue damask fainting couch circa 1889 or if the couch is a three seat, gun-metal blue, Danish modern leather sofa. It probably isn't important for me to know the nature of the stuffing inside the sofa cushions. Description, it seems to me, should exist to serve the needs of the narrative. Please notice that I said the needs of the narrative and not the needs of the reader. Truncating description out of fear of boring the reader seems to me a misplaced response. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.....

[darkmagicwillow]

I've been neglecting this discussion as I finished writing The Dark Rose, but I've got a bit more time to participate until I get too wrapped up in writing again.



technopagan, you're so right. It's not the quantity of detail that's a problem, but the presence of unnecessary detail. Quantity is necessary but not sufficient indicator of unneeded detail. Too much detail can occur at all levels of writing from too much narrative to unnecessary scenes and even characters. I'm tearing out a couple chapters of my current outline for this very reason; why use two scenes to show something when I can do it with one?



I think that publishers' love of series has encouraged many fantasy authors to expand their works far beyond what's necessary, turning novels into trilogies or worse. I call it unnecessary detail when, like Kieli, I start skimming for the next scene where something happens that develops the characters or advances the plot.



However, it's not just the publishers that determine length. Authors simply have different styles of writing, some who turn naturally to the short story, while others, like me, have trouble fitting their ideas into something shorter than a novel.



Many of you have probably read Stephen King's The Stand, one of the few novels out there in two versions. The first, edited version is about 800 pages, while the second version which includes all the cut scenes with a bit of editing by SK is over 1000 pages. I like the longer version better, yet there's there's nothing essential missing in the shorter version. What do you think? Is the power of the short version just good editing or the result of unnecessary detail in the original manuscript?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[TromDeGrey]

Ah, yes, detail, the bane of my writing existance. The last time I posted a piece of fiction the nicest comment I got was "verbose". I suppose I would have to lean toward the "good editing" side of things because I rarely find details unnecessary per se. I say that ducking my head slightly. I have been known to skip descriptions here and there, but for me, the more detailed the picture the more invested I tend to become. I don't read to create my own visualisations. I love to see what others see. I love another's piont of view. It is entirely possible to get bogged down in detail though, trying to "force" your vision on your reader. I am guilty of it on too many occassions. Thank goodness for good betas.

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."

Chinese Proverb

Edited by: TromDeGrey at: 3/17/03 1:11:35 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

One of the unique problems of fan fiction is fitting your work within someone else's source material--their setting, history, and characters. Of course, this problem isn't just an obstacle; it's also partly the reason for writing fan fiction. Despite our focus on W/T here, I think that setting is the most important aspect of a show for inspiring people to write fan fiction. Go to a place like fanfiction.net and count how many stories are set in the Star Trek or Buffy worlds with their deep but open settings, then compare them to other shows that lack such settings.



When the setting goes bad as it did in season 6 with magic suddenly becoming addictive and people acting out of character, it becomes difficult to write fan fiction. Authors try to fix this problem by jerking the story back to where it should be, like many of the quick fix stories written right after SR, or they give themselves space with which to rework the setting and return it slowly to where it should be, like I did in The Dark Rose with time, or like lipkandy is doing in Tempus Fugit with time travel, or like technopagan is doing with an alternate universe in Doppleganger Redux.



What I'm finding more difficult is writing a story within the framework where everything went bad. Every time I begin outlining a story within the setting of season 6, I keep finding problems and realizing that I need to start my story earlier, backing myself up until I'm back at The Gift again. I've noticed a scarity of stories set within season 6 on Pens, so I'm wondering if other authors have experiences this problem, and if so, what they learned from it?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 4/19/03 12:14:01 pm

[Blue Athame 1]

What a wonderful thread...so smart and thoughtful. I love to read how other writers reflect on and interpret their process. It is such an individual thing and wonderful in the diverse ideas and approaches to the same creative form.



I resonate with many of the thoughts and questions posed. I have to admit to struggling terribly with grammer and spelling both, I suck. Is that a descriptive enough word? You should have seen me this last week when someone actually took my dictionary from my desk at work...it was not pretty. My problem is I can't remember rules, rules of spelling, rules of grammer, rules in general . Yet I seem to hear these stories in my head. Words are lyrical to me, like music. I love the way they sound and will often read what I write aloud. That is how I work out breathing and pacing and rhythm. I confess to being a sucker for word play. I think language is lovely and fun.



I find that often when I let it go the story writes itself, it just comes to me. I too often struggle with how descriptive to be. I like to set the stage and leave room for the readers interpretation but then there is part of me that wants to control certain elements of the story...particularly the uh... , sex scenes I write. Maybe it is just the naughty side of me, I don't know, sometimes it is just hard to measure how much is too much. I know that I often get frustrated when I as a reader can't figure out how someone got from point a to point b. The trick for me is setting the stage and being kind of like a good waiter...knowing when to stay( and be descriptive) and knowing when to leave (to let ideas and actions stand on their own). I guess that is the idea of finding balance in a story.



I like what Antigone said about plot growing out of characters. So many times my plot or direction changes as I am writing because I am so character driven. I have thrown out whole chapter ideas and outlines because of what my characters are suddenly naturally doing in a given circumstance. This means that I have to leave myself open to their own organic evolution and be ready to change a particular story line.



I am often envious of other writers who have what I consider strong plots and interesting settings. I don't feel as good at this and wish I could be more creative that way. On the other hand I live by the basic writing rule that you should write what you know. I happen to be pretty good at the relationship stuff so I work with my characters in that way and have more emotionally based stories. When I have tried to step out of this it is usually disastrous. When I try to write what I think readers might want...I write crap. I agree with Technopagan on the point that elements like description should serve the need of the story and not the reader. I would add to that character development and plot as well. A story well written and evolving organically from a natural place should capture and hold your audience, while a story designed strictly for your audience can become too selfconscious and contrived. I learned this the hard way, and I believe it was blameburner who wisely pointed out to me many months ago that it is best to write for myself and not anyone else. I try not to let what I think people might like or want influence what I do, if I let that go then the story has room to evolve in its own way.



I am beginning to ramble, sorry. I always am short on time and have too many ideas I want to express. I often feel sad that I don't have enough physical time to sit and read and post more. I probably always sound rushed when I do. There are so many fine writers here who I admire greatly and people who I would like to get to know and chat with. Thank you all for your stories and your insights, and thank you for this. I think this is great.





Athame

Edited by: Blue Athame 1 at: 4/20/03 6:26:28 am

[TromDeGrey]

DMW- I tried for a while to put something together within the framework of the S6 we were presented with on TV. It was a simple story in terms of plot and characterization, the complexity of it came in its form, but I just couldn't do it. I couldn't write even the simplest of episode type stories set in that season. And I think you answered the reason why - The season was just horribly, horribly written. Everything from the show that year feels forced to me and it made fiction impossible without, as you said, jerking it back to where it should be. It was so broken, the characters were so lost, that all I wanted to do was fix it. I guess I didn't really realise just how poorly the show had been written during that time until I tried to sit in that writer's chair myself. Now I have said many times before that as a Wiccan the show usually managed to insult me, no matter the season, but 6 was especially deplorable. I often found myself watching the show and wondering just who in the hell I was watching and wondering what sort of lunacy was going on among the writer's. I suppose, for me anyway, to write within the time frame of S6 and not try to fix anything is to take on the same malaise that the show's writer's themselves seemed to have suffered from. I can't write and not care. That's what got the show into the mess it's in now.

Note to Whedon: "Men show their characters in nothing more clearly than in what they think laughable."

-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[JustSkipIt]

DMW – a great question. I had just been considering one of my own but you beat me to the punch so to speak. I find it to be both a blessing and a curse to write within someone else’s construct. On one hand, the lazy writer in me appreciates the work that has already been laid out by ME et. al through the Buffyverse. But on the other hand, it locks you into working within that construct even if the universe goes wonky.



I truly appreciate the rich array of characters in the Buffy verse and their actions open millions of fictional possibilities. You can go in any direction and fit your writing into the spaces between episodes or even scenes or you can completely veer off at any time and take over the universe and make it your own playground. But…



There is always that starting point. You have to be joined up with the JW universe at some point. And s6 is crazy! Why do they all do that right? We are watching thinking how insane everyone on the show is and JW is giving interviews saying that it’s all about how we make stupid mistakes all the time. So then I ask myself, “do I think that all my characters have to make good decisions all the time?” Absolutely not; characters in any fiction (or non-fiction for that matter) work will do stupid and cruel things. But then the more important question for me is “do I want to write about my characters doing those stupid things?” And in the case of s6, I have found the answer to be “no.”



It’s not that I don’t think that the Buffy characters are capable of stupidity but if I’m going to write about it, I want to develop their idiocy myself. I’m not going to write about either sex addiction or magic addiction because both are stupid ideas. If I want to use a metaphor, I will use one that works, not a stupid metaphor for something that isn’t real.



Ok, you ask what have we learned from it? What I’ve learned from it is that the construct is not everything. That I can vary from it as I see fit when it stops working with my writing. That I have freedom and can move toward it. Maybe someday to do some non ff writing.

---

"People have the power to redeem the work of fools." - Patti Smith

[darkmagicwillow]

It's good to see you here, Blue Athame. I'm enjoying your latest story, though I've been too busy to post feedback yet. My strengths are the opposite of yours, in plot/setting rather than character. Does anyone feel that they're equally good at either or find their strengths divided another way?



I had the same revelation about the poor quality of season 6 when I tried to work a fic within its framework too, Trom. Even the couple of episodes I like, OMWF and TR, undermined the possibility of a good season-long arc. The problem isn't too much focus on the end-goal of the season, but rather poor focus on that goal all the way through. It's not Willow's "addiction" that turns her evil, but her grief and her power mostly comes from draining the books in the Magic Box. That whole arc was not only stupid, but fundamentally pointless, so I just can't include it at all, yet there are hints of it from almost the beginning.



I'm curious as to how your identity as a Wiccan affects your perception of magic on Buffy. As a scientist and as a humanist who's read a great deal in the subjects of mythology and religion, what bothers me most is not that the magic isn't Wiccan (though it's annoying to be mislead), but that it follows no rules whatsoever. I can accept the lack of rules if magic is dealt with as a rare miracle, like in some Patricia McKillip's books or John Crowley's Little Big, but if it's not handled in that way, there has to be some consistency in the symbolism or mechanics of magic and Buffy has none.



Even if there are different theories or paths to magic, with Tara following Wicca and Willow following whatever she learned on her own, that would be fine, but there just aren't any theories presented on the show. Many people claim Willow's problem is her "scientific" approach to magic, but her approach isn't scientific at all. While she does tinker with the fiat lux spell, in all other cases Willow deals with magic by looking up spells like finding a recipe in a cookbook. She not only doesn't have any idea how magic works or even a plan on how she should go about learning magic, but she also doesn't seem to have ever tried to figure out such things. That's the approach of pre-scientific scholastism, not that of science.



That's been one of the most interesting and difficult parts of writing a post-season 5 story for me--trying to fit Key, Willow's and Tara's spells, demons and all into a story that is consistent and whole. Have other people thought about this issue?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 4/23/03 7:03:20 pm

[Mrs Vertigo]

Well, finally delurking here to throw in my two cents… I'm such a newbe compared to the lot of you... So just don't mind me if I'm being a dummy, ok?



I was actually very fond of Season 6, magic-wise, so I don't want to go into that. What does irritate me is Season 7. No continuation whatsoever regarding the nature, scale and limitations of Willow's "new and improved" set of powers. One moment she's capable of telepathy, the next moment she can't shake off a hex. She's completely exposed to attacks from The First while doing a simple locating spell, but she can open a dimensional portal with zero problems. None of which is explained.



For me this is all very frustrating, because I'm currently working on a story that explores the boundaries of Willow's powers. I really don't have anything solid in cannon to lean on, so I have to make my own rules as I go. Now, I'm not very educated on the subject – just basic reading derived from the "magic's so cool!' line of thought. Because of that I ended up doing what only seemed reasonable, and that's to tell Willow's PoV as though she herself doesn't know the full reach of her powers (whether or not she knows her strength is a very, very inconsecutive matter in cannon). But I still had a pretty complex theory about how magic worked in my fic, and I needed someone to do some explaining. I beat myself up for two weeks trying to decide who to assign the role of Big Knowledge Woman. That's when Amy's part suddenly doubled its size and I realized why she was there in the first place.



But I'm still not very sure about my concept. Whether it's even possible, or if it sounds completely ridiculous or whatnot. I don’t want to offend anybody, but when you think about it, following your own made-up rules for magic practicing is a whole lot more cannon than obeying the Wiccan rule. And I would very much like to stay within the constraints of cannon. The problem is, I don't want to sound like an idiot.



Do you suppose this is the sort of problem good beta-ing can iron out?



(And ok, OT, but look!!! A snoozing cow!! Oh My God! )

All your base are belong to us.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 4/24/03 5:06:06 am

[darkmagicwillow]

I'm sure you can find a beta who can help. I've talked a lot about my ideas on magic and mythology with a variety of kittens, and found them very helpful in both letting me know if my ideas made sense and suggesting sources for my research. I'm going to have a long acknowledgements section in my next fic.



If you want to share your theory of how magic works here, please go ahead. I'd love to expand this thread with people sharing their ideas and thoughts on their stories.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[darkmagicwillow]

How do you deal with feedback as a fanfic writer? We all like it, but does it sometimes feel overwhelming? How do you find something to say to all those wonderful people who loved your story? Some authors seem to have an effortless gift for writing responses, while others, like me, struggle with what to say and how to say it.



Alternatively, do you find yourself continually checking in on Pens for just one more feedback post? I confess that I did that with my first chapter. Okay, first few chapters to be honest. After that, I gained some confidence that there would be feedback even if I didn't check in every couple of hours.



Does the feedback make it easier or more difficult for you to write? Do you miss it when you're doing your early drafts with your beta reader before you have anything to post? Finally, does being an author change how you write feedback to other writers?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[TromDeGrey]

Let me touch on magick again before I go to the topic of feedback. I tried for the longest time to simply tell myself that this was just a silly TV show and that Wicca couldn't be accurately represented. Magick had to be bells and whistles to be interesting in fiction. But I got to a point where I thought if I heard Willow say "badass Wicca" one more time I would pull my hair out!!! Call her a witch - fine! But don't use the word Wicca. Details, I know, but my faith is misunderstood as it is, it doesn't need this hocus pocus crap on TV too. That having been said, while the whole addiction crap irritated me worse than anything, I wasn't overly surprised by it. ME had proven season after season that they weren't going to do any research and were just going to use magick and "Wicca" however they wanted. Premonition much? As to Willow's "scientific" approach to magick, I have said that myself actually. I first talked to Tulipp about it in feedback for Terra Firma. I said that I thought Wicca was a wonderful combination of science and religion. I stand by that, but I definitely see your point about Willow. There is no method to her madness, is there? I think what makes me lean toward Willow as Magical Scientist is the fact she's looking for results only. To borrow your recipe analogy, perhaps Willow as Magical Chef would be better. Her crappy self-esteem and therefore the whole ridiculous arc for her through S6 showed clearly that she didn't look to magick or Wicca as faith. She obviously didn't truly believe that the Divine was a part of her and everyone else. Color me exhausted. Another disappointment courtesy of ME.



So, feedback. What the hell has Trom DeGrey posted? You're right, nothing. However, seeing the amazing feedback writers, good, bad, and otherwise get here in the Pens has brought me back to writing. I wrote a non-W/T story a few years ago. It took me about a year to write with two betas helping out. I had a friend who was just starting a website and wanted me to post it serially to help bring some traffic to her site. I'll be the first to admit, it was a total experiment in writing for me. Tense changes, perspective changes, a character that we wrote in dialect, a real exercise. I got three chapters posted before my Inbox caught fire. The nicest compliment I think I got was "verbose". I begged my friend to pull the story and haven't posted fiction since. I didn't even write for a few years. So, overly critical feedback can be pretty devastating, especially if you're a bit of a nervous nelly about your writing in the first place like me. As I said though, the amazing people here have convinced me to give it a shot again. And Tulipp, bless her, has seen more versions of more stories, more stops and starts, talked me off of more ledges than anyone should ever have to deal with! As far as giving feedback is concerned, I suck at it and that makes me crazy. I love to read really insightful feedback. And I know that once I start posting one of the three fics I currently have rolling around in this thick head of mine, I'll be checking for feedback every ten seconds! I just really need to chill out.

Note to Whedon: "Men show their characters in nothing more clearly than in what they think laughable."

-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Edited by: TromDeGrey at: 4/26/03 8:25:54 pm

[JustSkipIt]

DMW, this is such an awesome question for me. Yes I love the feedback, my partner would definitely say I love it too much. She would prefer that I don’t read the feedback at all or reply to any. She questions why I want/need it psychologically which I find to be an intriguing question.



When I first started publishing, I found myself checking for the feedback constantly as you mention. But then as we started to discuss why did I want it so badly and why do I check so frequently, it became a test for me to not check so often. My partner suggested I start seeing how I did not checking it at all? That made me feel somewhat empty, as if I had sent the posting into a void and couldn’t have contact with it at all, like I had orphaned the piece and the readers.



Then we agreed that I would read comments but not respond. Well that was accepted well by the super-supportive Kittens. But for me it created two issues: first what happened when readers had a legitimate question or concern and I wanted/needed to answer that concern? Second, it just seemed rude to me. Here are these readers who have taken the time and energy to give me feedback and I don’t even say “thank you.” It seemed very rude.

Quote:

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How do you find something to say to all those wonderful people who loved your story? Some authors seem to have an effortless gift for writing responses, while others, like me, struggle with what to say and how to say it.

---

Sometimes I find it very easy to respond. I just take each comment one at a time and respond to that one. When I find it hard is when I have three or four comments at a time that just say “great part” or “I loved it.” I feel silly writing each person’s screen name and saying “thanks.”

Quote:

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Does the feedback make it easier or more difficult for you to write?

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The feedback is invaluable. There are many times when I only understand where something that I tried worked or didn’t because I read the feedback. If two or three readers don’t understand what I’m saying or question the same thing, I know I made a mistake. It’s particularly important to me since I don’t use a beta (I know: use a beta Debra!). There was a part of Turned that I posted and every writer said, “why is Anya drinking? What’s wrong?” Well the answer is, I blew it. I put in an unintentional red herring. The same thing happened when Willow got appendicitis: everyone thought it was the apple but really I just blew it. I love to read the truly intelligent comments on my fic, people questioning my writing or the reasoning of the characters. I’ve had some truly intriguing conversations with Grimmy regarding the nature of forgiveness and grace.



I particularly like when I can shock or surprise the readers. Of course, I’ve been surprised too. When I published Wish/Wash (in Y’all), I had no idea that some readers would have such reactions. I was completely unprepared for the volume and intensity of responses to that part. So I guess I want to shock/surprise the readers but always want a good reaction, which isn’t really the way the world works.

Quote:

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Do you miss it when you're doing your early drafts with your beta reader before you have anything to post?

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Not particularly. I love the feedback but at the beginning of the story is when it is building its own life and running full speed and I just write and write and worry about the feedback later.

Quote:

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Finally, does being an author change how you write feedback to other writers?

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As Mary says, “yes, yes, yes!” I don’t feel comfortable leaving “great part” or “loved it” type feedback. I want to leave the feedback that the other author will appreciate like I appreciate it. I want my feedback to be specific, helpful, complimentary, insightful, and original. Now that I write, I feel like the authors appreciate the type of feedback I want from them.



Ok, I rambled but it’s a great question. Thanks DMW.

---

"Keep in mind always the present you are constructing. It should be the future you want." - Alice Walker, Temple of My Familiar

[darkmagicwillow]

Trom, I was thinking about your feelings about Wicca on Buffy, and realized that I have very similar feelings about science on Star Trek. Those words just don't mean what they think they do, and they're contaminating millions of viewers. In a country where it's controversial to teach an scientifically undisputed fact like evolution, we don't need to confuse people any more deeply. More personally to you, if everything you write is as good as the scene you let me read, I wouldn't worry.



JustSkipIt, I loved all your thoughts on feedback. I especially like what you say about feedback from readers teaching you what really works and what doesn't in your writing. Hmmm...and didn't you tell me you had a question to post on this thread?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Mrs Vertigo]

Having written one lousy medium-length fic and one good tiny tic, I really hardly qualify to answer this… but on feedback:



Alternatively, do you find yourself continually checking in on Pens for just one more feedback post?



*sheepishly* you mean not everybody does that? Bugger.



Does the feedback make it easier or more difficult for you to write?



Oh, but I've decided in advance I will not post until my story's all written, beta-ed, re-written and beta-ed again. I'm a pedantic perfectionist like that. But detailed feedback could easily get me thinking up a zillion different sequals.



Do you miss it when you're doing your early drafts with your beta reader before you have anything to post?



Miss it? When I write, it's bliss. I don't miss anything, save those magical times before the finals when I actually *had* some time to myself. The only time I think of feedback is when I'm writing the disclaimer. Funny, eh? I always try to make it a humorous one.



Finally, does being an author change how you write feedback to other writers?



Incredibly. Like those before me said, and put it better than I could, it makes me give more thought to writing feedback. Now when I like something, I let the author know why. Plus I try to write up what kind of feeling the fic gives, because I would greatly like to know what my writing *feels* like in turn. It's treat like you wish to be treated thing, I think.



And on something else – I noticed a lot of you said you developed fics and concepts through discussion with other kittens. I've never done that... but I've an idea that badly needs another set of eyes to look at it. I'm not asking for someone to develop the whole story arch with me, that I've already got down, I just want someone to help me toss that particular concept back an fourth a few times till I'm sure it holds water. If anyone's interested, could we do it via email or ICQ?



As for the idea itself... I don't want to discuss it here cause... well, it's childish, really. I just intend to post that fic on Pens when I'm done and *blushes* I want it to be a surprise. Real mature, eh?

My 2 cents: keep a dream-diary. Your brain is always best uncensored.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 5/6/03 1:13:27 pm

[Blue Athame 1]

Back again and as per my usual style, a little late to the party. I guess I am only hmmm...1, 2, no 3 topics behind. Oh well, let me see, where to start....Season 6?...okay.



You asked about Season 6, boy have I had a time with that, like so many of the other writers. It was so off key...never seemed to resonate correctly from the very beginning. I was able to watch, but it never rang true and in that came my problems in trying to write about it. There was the ending of course that I like my colleques have wanted to fix. But the characters were so different and damaged, I wanted to bring them back into sync. Of course when I started to write about them I took the dangerous road of wanting to deal with the emotional aftermath of Tara's death...that to me was where it could be real and true again. Of course dealing with such subject matter ie...who gets to clean the blood off the carpet, was also intensely painful. I found that trying to write about it was equally so and therefore very difficult to do. I havent finished the fic yet because of this...not good. I actually liked this one a great deal, but as I was told by my readers it was as painful to read as it was to write, readership on this one was not very high. Probably not what people have come to expect from me. I am okay with that...I just wanted it to be honest. I have been stalled however trying to get up the emotional energy to finish it and that makes me sad, I don't like leaving things undone and I do want to tell the story. This is where Season 6 has left me....stuck damn it.



The witchcraft, spells, magic, boogymen(actually they havent had any of those yet have they? Oh...they did have that ridiculous kitten eating shark now didnt they )and demons, bah. They make it up to suit themselves. I agree that there is clearly no understanding or real premise here, it unfortunately is just another story vehicle that leads to misinformation and misunderstanding. Sigh, that sounded a little harsh, but really, they could do a little research now couldnt they...we do.



Feedback...oh, that thing I should be doing right now instead of writing this. I find it wonderful and overwhelming all at the same time. When I write, I write alone. When I post, I have an audience, of course I want to know what they think. Of course I want them to like it...I do...I admit it. While I dont write to please them, I am happy and satisfied when it does. My problem is I have time trouble. I can only post when I am working. My partner is not supportive of my creative efforts so I do it on the side. Usually my time is spent in trying to post...and as some of you who know me and how I deal with computers...this sometimes is a task in and of itself. I also want to give thoughtful replys, but I dont always have them.I want to acknowledge everyone who thought enough to acknowledge me, but what do I say. I want to have a relationship with my readers but I have trouble keeping it up, very sad about this one. On the rare occassion that I get to read someone elses work...not nearly as often as I would like...I try hard to be thoughtful about what I say. I want to pay attention and offer depth and interest, but then I feel ackward just dropping by and hi...you dont know me but I am going to be deep and provide you with some supportive analysis of your work...ack, who am I? I dont know what to do and that usually, shamefully renders me mute. So while I love feedback, I often find it difficult to deal with.



One final point on the feedback thing...I have also found that it can invigorate a story. Most recently I have been working on a fic that was supposed to be light and easy. Kittens have wanted to know more about my Tara in this story however and so I have started to create a backstory for her. This has deepened her and as it has deepened her I have had to deepen the story to support her character. Now I have to decide where to go with this...the original intent and story line has changed. I find this very interesting and it was generated primarily by questions in the feedback, go figure.



Enough for tonight, thanks for listening.



Athame.

[darkmagicwillow]

Mrs Vertigo, if you need someone to look at a concept for you, I'd be happy to do so. Even if I really understand a concept internally, explaining it to others help me elucidate it to myself as well. Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds like writing really changes giving feedback for everyone.



Blue Athame, I know what you mean about feeling awkward in giving feedback to people you don't know. I was incredibly shy at first, then I felt if I didn't have a couple of pages to write, why bother. I've overcome both worries by seeing what I liked as feedback and trying to return the same.



I like what you say about feedback invigorating a story. I had everything written ahead of time, but feedback inspired me to add some scenes to explore characters I hadn't focused deeply on originally. I know I couldn't write without some form of feedback.



Antigone, I'm reading Bird by Bird this week and it's been a fun book with quite a few insightful ideas so far:

• shitty first drafts: It's a whole chapter and as she says, all good writers write them. I found it reassuring and the following chapter on perfectionism also spoke to my personal problems.
  
  
• characters: It takes time for you to get to know. It's true in fan fiction too: what is it about Tara's past that makes her the way she is today? I also liked the quote from another author: "avoid forcing your characters to march too steadily to the drumbeat of your artistic purpose." I think we all know someone with that problem.
  
  

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/14/03 4:35:38 pm

[JustSkipIt]

Hi. Ok, I have a discussion item for everyone. I don’t know if it will interest everyone but I hope so.



What role does writing fan fic (or writing anything that you write) play in your real life (RL)? Is it similar or completely different from your “joe job” (or school)? Do you find it to be a release? An escape? Do you share your art with others around you?



Writing fan fiction is hugely important to me. Last year when I started writing it was a therapeutic experience. I was having a lot of very difficult issues in my life from early in the year. When I found out from spoilers that Tara would die, I took it very personally. It resonated so deeply with my life that I truly entered a type of depression. That depression only lifted when I began to write Two Days. As I did, I was able to exorcise the demons that her death had brought.



This writing is the first creative writing that I have ever done. I work as a computer programmer, which is a very different job from writing: except that programming is a completely creative endeavor. It requires logic and the ability to see a world beyond that which currently exists. So in a way writing and programming exercise two parts of my creativity.



At times my RL is very difficult and I have issues to deal with. As some readers know, my mother is seriously ill. Other life issues keep coming up and who can ever get away from the problems plaguing our country (and that our country visits on other countries). But in my writing, I can get away from all that. In my writing, I completely control the universe. Even though I didn’t invent the characters, I can do anything I want to them. They can end every day happy and fulfilled … or not. My fiction allows me the opportunity to shape a world just how I want to see it.



Most of the people in my life don’t know that I write at all. My partner of course knows and is supportive of the writing if not of the interaction with readers. My other Buffy-fanatic friends know but no one else in my life. And that’s fine with me. I don’t know how I would explain it to them so…Instead I find the feedback from readers to be a huge boon. To have readers say, “I like this,” “I love this,” “you write well,” feeds my ego and supports me to keep moving through life.



Ok, I probably rambled. I hope that others find this an interesting topic and want to share their thoughts. DMW, thanks for starting this thread.



Debra

---

"Keep in mind always the present you are constructing. It should be the future you want." - Alice Walker, Temple of My Familiar

[TromDeGrey]

Cool topic. My two roomates know I write, but not what I write. My job isn't overly stressful, so I guess my writing is one part escape, one part self-esteem builder. I'm not terribly articulate unless I have time to write and think first. I give great speeches, but don't corner me for an off-the-cuff conversation. LOL!! I guess maybe that's why I don't give the best feedback now that I think about it. I read an update and want to respond right away. I should probably take more time with it. As I was saying though, I really like that if given time, I can put out an idea and/or vision for public consumption. While I may not be able to stand up in a crowd and be articulate, I do have something important to say- or at least entertaining.

My second favorite household chore is ironing. My first being hitting my head on the top bunk bed until I faint. -Erma Bombeck

[Triscuit7]

Hey darkmagicwillow



I figured it was about time I got around to posting here. I mean, I’ve mentioned to you in chat that I wanted to and all…. Because I’m jumping in so late, what you’re getting is a hodgepodge of answers to all the various questions that have come up since you started this thread.



I’m a chronic daydreamer and have been all my life. But I don’t think they’re the normal sort of daydreams most people have. I’ve always had a protagonist, or two or three, (and who is never me) going off and having adventures. The protagonist of my daydreams is usually female and only very rarely male. I’d say that roughly 1/3 to ½ of these daydreams would qualify as fan fic to some degree or other and the rest is original material. Occasionally I’ve taken a stab at writing the stories down, but then real life would distract me.



That changed in the early nineties. I began to write my primary lifelong “daydream”. It’s a science fiction adventure and I was primarily writing it for me. But writing for yourself is hard. You start to wonder if it’s any good and if anyone would be interested in it and then you start comparing it to published material. A few years ago I stumbled across an e-group devoted to the writing of S.M. Stirling. In addition to having the author post in the discussion board, there was a fan fic area. It took awhile before I felt comfortable/brave enough to post in the discussions. It took much longer before I mentioned to the guys (and it is mostly guys there) that I was writing something. But I did - several of them read the first part and while the responses weren’t overwhelming or enthusiastic, they weren’t hostile either. I developed a pretty close writing relationship with one of them, with him offering pointers and such.



It gave me encouragement. I didn’t suck.



Which brings me to winter 2002 and my discovery of the Kitten. I’m a latecomer to BTVS; working retail doesn’t leave much room for much at all. I didn’t have a chance to watch when it first aired but started viewing in the fall of 2001 with FX. I got invested in the show like I had the first few seasons of Xena (and DS9 and Wonder Woman and Charlie’s Angels and The Avengers).



So I’m enjoying the show and loving Willow and Tara and then the awfulness happened. Pretty much like everyone, I hoped it wasn’t true … that it be “fixed”. Well, it wasn’t.



But Willow and Tara were still wonderful. And I started to think and daydream. Then Blue Athame started a “revenge” fic “Ride Him Like a Pony”, and I posted a little piece that “fixed” S6. It received some feedback and I thought: Wow – this is cool.



At about that time I heard a Kirsty MacColl song on WXPN (“In these Shoes?”) and I developed a mild obsession over Tara in boots. My first stand-alone fic “The River In Me” was the outcome. It was a fic that I just sat down and wrote. The setting was a contained bit of time in the latter part of S4 when everything between Willow and Tara was sparkly and new. The gist of the idea was from “Who Are You?” when Giles, Willow, Tara, and Faith/Buffy hop out of the armored car at the church. We see what happens with Buffy/Faith, F/B, and the vamps, but I wondered what happened afterward with Willow and Tara. They’d spent the previous night having metaphorical sex while forging a Katra. Now, my thought was … what logically would happen next? The result was that “River” became a smutfic.



I received feedback and I realized I was a feedback whore. People liked my writing and wanted more. Wow.



There were several directions that I could have taken. One of them was a fic for the Stirling group which involved “dropping” one of the villains from the Stirling-verse into BTVS S6. Or I could do some more with Willow and Tara on the Kitten.



I decided to go with Willow and Tara, and decided to pick up the story on the ‘morning’ after “River”. “The Edge of Silence” would be a canon fic, and I’d fill in the blanks of 3 episodes from S4 (Superstar, Where the Wild Things Are and New Moon Rising). And while that is a limited space of time, I took a soap opera approach to writing it. I delved into the various minutes of each day, following Willow and Tara around. It ranges from NC-17 to G depending on where they are and the strictures of canon. The result is that approximately 8 months after I began, I have finally finished Superstar.



What’s different with “Edge”? Size. Timescale. That it’s not just smut.



Writing a canon fic is easy in some ways. I have a ready made outline. The events are already determined; I just have to fill in the holes, the scenes we never got to see, the scenes we all imagined. Interestingly the actual chronology was a bit difficult to deduce; airdates can be helpful but BTVS episodes especially in the latter part of a season tend to air with lots of gaps between new eps. Some eps weren’t hard to place on a timeline. “Fear Itself” is Halloween, “Pangs” is Thanksgiving, but dating others is hard and mostly I just made guesses from outerwear about the time of year. So that “River” which is just the one night, following ‘WAY’, I placed in late February pretty much coinciding with the episode’s airdate. Now I had 3 episodes to figure out how they fit. ‘NMR’ needed a full moon. An April full moon would be too long a time period and wouldn’t fit the heavy outerwear, which meant finding out when the full moon was in March 2000 – that gave me the end-date for the fic. To me, ‘Superstar’ felt like a weekend episode which was nice because I could have Jonathan’s spell fall on the dark of the moon. It also seemed likely that the WTWTA party at Lowell House was on a weekend with Oz’s arrival in NMR on a weekday. Once I had that, I had the fic’s chronological structure.



Then it’s just been filling in the blanks. I generally have an idea of what is happening on a particular day with the Scoobs and have a little mini-outline in a file named appropriately “edgeinfo”. That file also contains copies of the shooting scripts (and accreditation) for the 3 episodes since I need to work within the canon and do utilize the actual dialogue from time to time.



Occasionally I find myself needing to “fix” some anomaly in the actual episode or one that springs up in subsequent seasons. So my S4 Jonathan has been influenced by the Jonathan of S6 – he’s much darker than S1-3 Jonathan or even the Jonathan who is talking to Buffy at the end of Superstar. If he wasn’t that dark, then how’d he end up one of the Troika?



One of the big problems for me was Tara in Superstar. She escapes the monster by getting into a closet. But … when we next see her she’s huddled on the bed in her room. To all appearances she’s in shock, but doesn’t seem too badly injured. But shock isn’t nothing to mess around with. My questions were ‘how’d she get there?’ and ‘who called Willow?’. The answer had to be someone helped her, which meant developing a character to be the cavalry. The result was Jo and to a lesser extent, “the guys”. And that has been fun.



My writing approach to ‘Edge’ has been different. I wrote ‘River’ in about two weeks. My partner Darcy beta-ed it and we posted it in sections. I’m writing ‘Edge’ as a work in progress, as a serial. That is working out well in most ways. Kitten feedback lets me know if an idea I have is working or not and I can tweak it in later updates. That works the same for characters. The initial reaction to Jo was mostly negative – ‘stalker’ girl was the general impression, but by pizza night I had turned that around to mostly positive. I couldn’t have my ‘cavalry’ seen as a bad guy, could I? Likewise, Kitten interest in her has given her a bigger role than I had initially realized.



Research. There is far more research involved in “Edge” than there was in “River”. With “River” and the smutty bits of “Edge” research tended to be: is that physically possible? Or ‘Ooops, wait, the way you’ve written that, Willow has 3 hands’. “Edge” has required internet searches for lyrics, moon data, vidcaps, etc. and also the purchase of several books on magic (for which my store thanks me).



The characters for me are essential. Canon drives the plot in ‘Edge’ but I have to stay true to the characterization that SMG, NB, ASH, JM, EC, and especially Aly & Amber provided us. If the characters don’t stay true, the story will fail. So I listen really hard to them as I daydream my way thru shelving and cashiering at work. Watching the tapes, I think through what each expression and each posture/gesture might mean as I listen to the dialog – all to get to what is going on in that character’s mind and what they are feeling. Writing the picnic at the end of Superstar was hard. Everyone seemed so isolated. I initially wrote that from Tara’s POV and it just didn’t work and Darcy agreed. But when I re-wrote it and gave it to Anya, it clicked.



I also am really big on visualizing a scene. That I think comes from being a daydreamer, except my daydreams are filled with dialogue. It’s weird, I’m weird, and it’s all true. Which brings up that damned closet scene I wrote for “Edge”. Visualizing that with all of Tara’s attendant emotions was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. It was gut-wrenching actually – gave me nightmares when I could sleep, which wasn’t often during the week I was plotting and working through it in my head. The thing is, as fan fic writers, we care about the characters. They’re not just Jonathan’s sock puppets to move around into various scenarios. They’re not mere plot devices. They’re people. Yes, they are imaginary but they MEAN something.



At the risk of muddying the waters a bit, I’ll mention an original character of mine from the SF thingie I was writing. Kari called Katai is a leader of a group of aliens who is presented with a major dilemma involving the likely deaths of several lovers. As I was writing the scene between her and her mate, I was shocked by the words that appeared on the screen. This character that I had envisioned as a fairly gentle member of her species pretty much stood up and said “Wrong! I will do anything and all things necessary to protect X.” That was the first time I’ve had a character out and out take over; it hasn’t been the last.



Fear. That is a big one for a writer. I was quite afraid the first time I posted a fic. The second one was easier but I still worried if anyone would like it. With “Edge” I’m much more confident. I’m outright eager to post each update and get a little bit snippy if there is a delay in getting the beta done. I’m downright snarky when I’m not able to write due to work or other stuff. The story is there and it wants out. And as for feedback, I’ve already mentioned that I love it. It is the most fantastic thing to have someone say “hey, I really enjoyed that.” Do I check constantly for feedback after I post? Well, not quite constantly, but twice a day, and I also watch the view counter go up for a few minutes after I post. As yet another shy type, by writing and receiving feedback, I’ve discovered that I love to have my ego stroked. Would I write without feedback, probably, but I think it’s the best positive reinforcement in the world.



I also usually enjoy responding to feedback. The ‘usually’ comes in when I’m astounded by something that the reader has seen that was tucked away – and I have to find something to say that is more than, “um, well, yeah, I intended that” – a response that always makes me feel like a cat who has just fallen off the couch. Even if the feedback is something simple, like a “Wow, that was great” or an entire post of thudding icons – I like to respond. I also love writing feedback to other fics, but I often find it difficult to be as erudite as some of the other posters and am easily intimidated.



I just wish I had more time to read!



So what happens when I finish “Edge”? – and please note, I’m not saying when that’s going to be anymore. I have another fic in the pipeline for sure, because writing “Edge” has created some unresolved issues. I even have a title for it (“Imagine”) and it will cover S4 from Yoko through Restless. An early S4 fic is also a possibility. We’ll see.



Ciao, Melissa

******************



I brought marshmallows!

[darkmagicwillow]

I'm way behind on my replies to people here and I love JustSkipIt's topic, but for the moment, I'm writing about something I recently read in E.M. Forster's Aspects of the Novel. Many writers here have talked about characters making the story of their own accord, but have you ever thought of it this way? I like this quote for what it says about the difficulty of balancing the needs of plot and characters:

They [the characters] have numerous parallels with people like ourselves, they try to live their own lives and are consequently often engaged in treason against the main scheme of the book. They "run away," they "get out of hand": they are creations inside a creation, and often inharmonious towards it; if they are given complete freedom they kick the book to pieces, and if they are kept too sternly in line, they revenge themselves by dying, and destroy it by intestinal decay.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[JustSkipIt]

Absolutely great and hysterical question for me. Yes, yes, yes. The characters run the story for me. Or is it the inmates and the asylum? Hmmm??? I often don't really know what the characters do or want or will say until they do it. It makes Rachel crazy because I'll say, "so ... it turns out that Tara has trouble reading..." or "... and I'm thinking that Eliza's family may be mobsters..." or something. And she's like what do you mean, "you think" or "it turns out!" "You are writing it! Either they are that way or they're not!" But that's just it. It's like I'm sitting there eating dinner and I'm watching them and their flirting or fighting or trading french fries or whatever and I only know that because I get to watch them.



It also means that they do stupid and foolish things. I find myself thinking, "why can't Willow be more honest?" or "why can't Tara trust her more?" And of course, "Tara! Duck!" But she doesn't. They listen to me about like I guess my kids will. They do the things they were thinking of doing anyway and say thanks and don't do the things they were not thinking of doing anyway and say thanks. Either way, it's great to watch.



Ok, I rambled which makes sense since it's me...

---

Well there's not even breathing room between pleasure and pain. -- Aerosmith.

[TromDeGrey]

Quote:

---

creations inside a creation

---

Indeed. I'm currently knee deep in one of my "diversion" stories (I have one primary story and one or two diversions when I get frustrated) that is squirming in my creative hands like a freshly caught bass. It started off easily enough. I had about 12 pages before I could blink, but then a rough patch came, and then I found out it violated the FAQ, and then all hell broke loose on the paper in front of me! I find myself writing notes to myself in the margins on their behavior. I want them at odds with each other. Fighting with a strong undercurrent of sexual tension. A relationship bordering on unhealthy even.



But they don't want to do that.



Not easily anyway. Willow and Tara want to cooperate with one another and fall head over heels in love at first sight.



Well dammit! That's not what I want!



So, as I said, I've taken to writing myself little notes. "Remeber the tension." "They're fighting themselves to fight each other." Things like that. It seems to be working too. Scenes are coming easier, but I feel like I'm doing more on-the-fly editing than in anything else I have ever wriiten before. I'll catch myself letting them think too much about their actions. Wanting to cooperate and go all doe-eyed on each other.



So, what so you do with characters that want to run amok? Especially Willow and Tara. They're so easy to write mushy and in love. Have you ever tried something different? They'll end up together in my story, but they'll fight it tooth and nail most of the way. They have to take individual journeys before they can find each other.



But it's a bitch to write.

My second favorite household chore is ironing. My first being hitting my head on the top bunk bed until I faint. -Erma Bombeck

[darkmagicwillow]

It's interesting to contrast how JSI's characters act, seeming in a hurry to get into trouble, to how Trom's characters act, in too much of a hurry to get out of conflict, which goes to illustrate how of much of our characters come out of ourselves. I tend to have Trom's problem myself, but sometimes they get into trouble and refuse to get out however much I want them to, no matter how often I tell them that they've only got a couple more chapters and then it's time to get out of the pool ... er, trouble.



JSI, I understand Rachel's viewpoint as I thought that way until I started writing, and then you're right: you watch things happen in your head, then write it down, wondering how it's all going to turn out.



p.s.: JSI, I really will get to your questions sometime soon...

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/24/03 6:20 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

As I'm spending time working on both a short work and a long work these days, I've been thinking about how the experience of writing each one differs and I came up with this comparison of cathedrals and jewels. Neither is intrinsically easier or even faster to create, and while novels are more often cathedrals and short stories and poems are more frequently jewels, neither always fits so neatly into such a categorization.



Cathedrals are large structures so they must be built with forethought to establish a framework on which to hang the actual words of the story. Individual words and scenes are important, but neither is essential to the success of a cathedral. The essential component of a cathedral is the skeleton of consistent ideas which holds the scenes and words together to create character and story as wholes greater than their individual components.



Jewels are small structures of intricate craftsmanship where every scene and even every word matters. The whole jewel is greater than the sum of its details, but the jewel is still something that can be taken in all at once, whereas the cathedral is too much to ingest in such a fashion. There is no room for excess in a jewel, so each part must be devised carefully with a thought to its impact on the whole.



I don't know if I've written a jewel with my latest story, but I've learned a lot from making the attempt as I'm a cathedral builder by nature. I don't want to establish story elements with tiny jewel-like detail, but rather I prefer to build on a large scale with all the elements of story at my beck and call. That's one of the advantages of words. One never runs out them, unlike physical constructs. However, by imposing limitations of size and structure on myself, I've learned that I can make do with less and that sometimes just as much can be accomplished in a couple carefully chosen sentences as in a dozen pages.



Which type of story do you prefer to write, and have you ever learned anything by forcing yourself to write out of your preferred medium?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 7/14/03 5:51 am

[JustSkipIt]

Re: Characters -

Quote:

---

It's interesting to contrast how JSI's characters act, seeming in a hurry to get into trouble, to how Trom's characters act, in too much of a hurry to get out of conflict, which goes to illustrate how of much of our characters come out of ourselves.

---

Well I’m not entirely sure that you’re not implying that I’m trying to get into trouble but I’ll let that slide. But yes, I think I try very hard to leave my characters with very definite human weaknesses, and not just magic addiction or whatever but insecurity, jealousy, laziness. And truly I think that those weaknesses are what cause most problems in the world. What is more dangerous than laziness or greed or fanaticism? Really cause most all crimes and wars…



Long works and short stories – First off, I must say that just the first part of your new story has absolutely succeeded in building a jewel. Every sentence, every word is taught with tension and pregnant with importance. It’s a beautiful work.



That said, this is quite a different question for me because at the end you ask have I ever forced myself to write outside my preferred medium? Well I’d have to say that my entire foray into fan fic is outside my medium. The last thing I wrote before starting ff was the required essay in sixth grade on “the future.” Then no creative/fiction writing for over 20 years so in a way this entire thing is outside my comfort zone.



But knowing friends who wrote I’ve always played with thoughts in my head and when they asked why I didn’t write them down I said that I thought that anything I wrote would turn out very short. I always thought that I’d write an entire novel idea and have it take 3 pages with nothing else to say. But now that I’ve started, I find that it works just the opposite. I start writing what I think will be a short story (Paths) and it just keeps growing. I’m up to part 18 or so and barely think I’m on the way. Whereas Turned seemed long to me as I worked on it and I believe it was fewer words than Paths is now.



But I also think that my answer to your question is colored in part by the differences in our writing/planning styles. While you construct your outline thoroughly, I just start writing with a very vague idea of beginning, middle, and end. I think that your technique lends itself more naturally to creating jewels (or well-crafted cathedrals) while mine has a tendency to wander about a bit before getting there.



Hmmm, did I answer your question? I would definitely prefer writing long works and haven’t really every tried short. How’s that for a summary?



Let’s hear from some other writers! This is a wonderful thread and I’d love to hear what others have to say.

---

"Seek the company of those who are still seeking the truth and run away from those who think they have found it.--J.T. O'Hara

Edited by: JustSkipIt at: 7/21/03 6:37 am

[darkmagicwillow]

JustSkipIt asked a long time ago:

What role does writing fan fic (or writing anything that you write) play in your real life (RL)? Is it similar or completely different from your "joe job" (or school)? Do you find it to be a release? An escape? Do you share your art with others around you?

Like you, writing fan fiction here is my first experience with creative writing. In many ways, I do see programming, mathematics, and writing as very similar forms of symbolic creative thinking. Like you say, they require "the ability to see a world beyond that which currently exists." In all of these arts, I read, research, think, create, and then translate the creation into a symbolic form to share with others.



I like the idea of writing fan fiction being therapeutic, and I do write about personal issues in my fic. However, while writing stories helps me articulate my thoughts about these issues, it hasn't helped me come to an emotional or logical conclusion about them. On the other hand, I've found reading others' fan fic to have helped tremendously with my feelings about season 6.



Few people in my life know that I write, though I have shared my stories with a handful of close friends who watch Buffy. While I write for myself, the feedback I received, both posted and emailed, is important as well and it is one of the things that keeps me moving once I've posted a story.





Thanks for your answer to my question about jewels and cathedrals and for your lovely comment about my new story; it's always interesting to see how other authors write. I shouldn't let you think that I always have everything in mind at the beginning though. I know the ending and the beginning, but much of the middle is always a surprise as I inevitably write away from my outline there. Perhaps it's my nature, or perhaps it's just how the middles of stories work; I don't know.



Your comments about playing with stories in your head, reminded me of something Triscuit wrote a while ago that I never found time to answer:

I'm a chronic daydreamer and have been all my life. But I don't think they're the normal sort of daydreams most people have. I've always had a protagonist, or two or three, (and who is never me) going off and having adventures. The protagonist of my daydreams is usually female and only very rarely male. I'd say that roughly 1/3 to ½ of these daydreams would qualify as fan fic to some degree or other and the rest is original material. Occasionally I've taken a stab at writing the stories down, but then real life would distract me.

I've always had this sort of daydream too. Perhaps every writer does? I was always too focused on other forms of creativity to write down my internal stories, until I found a place to write along with a story whose problems so annoyed me that I had to fix it.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."