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Writing Discussion

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Re: Cathedrals and Jewels: Long works and short stories

Postby justin » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:21 am

Quote:
In many ways, I do see programming, mathematics, and writing as very similar forms of symbolic creative thinking. Like you say, they require "the ability to see a world beyond that which currently exists." In all of these arts, I read, research, think, create, and then translate the creation into a symbolic form to share with others.




I've often thought that writing and programming were very similar. I think that you've perfectly summed up how.



When I'm writing I'll normaly come up with an ending shortly after starting. Then, as you say, the difficultie is coming up with the bit in between.



I generally try to write long Cathedral like stories but they normaly end up being a lot shorter than I intend, so perhaps I should call them chapels.



I also spend a lot of time daydreaming about stories. In fact the thing that got me started writing was thinking that I spent so much time making up stories I might as well write them down.



Though I have a problem in that when I plan out a scene I can generally hear what the characters are saying but I can't see what they're doing, which results in stories that are mainly dialog with hardly any narative.



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


Re: Cathedrals and Jewels: Long works and short stories

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:53 pm


I generally try to write long Cathedral like stories but they normaly end up being a lot shorter than I intend, so perhaps I should call them chapels.
I had to smile at the concept of chapel stories. Cathedrals can be overambitious. When I was walking through the narrow, medieval streets of Siena, I came across beautiful marble columns and arches, and I learned that little Siena had planned to build a church larger than St Peter's in Rome, the largest cathedral in all Christendom. Of course, they never finished it and only the marble bones of the cathedral remain (which can be climbed for a beautiful view of the city). I guess the moral is be ambitious but be realistic at the same time.

Though I have a problem in that when I plan out a scene I can generally hear what the characters are saying but I can't see what they're doing, which results in stories that are mainly dialog with hardly any narative.
I don't see the scene in full detail all at once either. Instead, I work like a painter, getting a more detailed image in my head as I look around the scene again and refine it with each draft.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: Cathedrals and Jewels: Long works and short stories

Postby lipkandy » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:24 pm

okay, *clearing throat* so, I'm piping up in this thread for the first time, mainly because I want to see the conversation start up again. I have a pathological fear of these types of discussions, but I'll give it a whirl because I think some of the issues are too attractive to pass up. Plus, I'm procrastinating :)



First, there's been a lot of talk about outlines v. simply starting a story and going with it. Well, I'll say right off that I don't think there is a right way to write, but I do think there seem to be two schools of thought: those who outline meticulously and have a definite plot/arc in mind and those who have a sense of where the story is going and let the characters dictate the stuff in-between. I fall hopelessly in the no-outline category, which is probably the bane of my existence. I cannot write with an outline. Can. Not. My few attempts have been completely dismantled by my characters within two chapters. In fact, Tempus Fugit S4 and S7 were meant to be very different stories (with the same end) than they turned out, but the middle just...happened. It really is (for me) like the characters are sitting there telling me what to do. I see pieces of the scenes, hear snips of conversation and it just...goes.



I do have a goal when I start writing each scene -- where I want it to end up, but there's only an even chance that it won't get blown to hell. I guess it's like mental skydiving for me or something. I love setting ridiculous deadlines for myself (I usually write each update in one or two days) and I absolutely get crazy happy when I paint myself into a corner and have to seat-of-the-pants my way out of it. for me, writing something like S7 is like working on a giant puzzle -- constantly worrying over the details and pieces while keeping a constant eye on the overall picture.



As for feedback, this has been a HUGE topic of discussion between me and my editor, witchpunk. Because I'm a feedback ho...totally and she's of the mind that that isn't necessarily a good thing. I check it obsessively (when I'm here). But I find a lot of the feedback to be inspirational and at times, it will lead the story in a new direction. It's like another set of characters who consantly ask questions and say "well, wait I didn't understand..." and it forces me out of my own head a little more.



Feedback has definitely taught me more about writing though. an author online was talking about how much you should listen to people's feedback and questions because your first impulse as a writer is to explain in your writing and you immediately want to answer those questions. Sometimes it's better to leave those questions in and let readers figure it out for themselves. that's part of reading after all -- filling in the blanks with your own pictures and ideas. so, the kittens are helping me find where that line is between overexplaining and mystery.



phew! and that's all I can write now.

lipkandy
 


Re: Cathedrals and Jewels: Long works and short stories

Postby Patches » Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:02 pm

The writing bug has hit me again (damn thing is worse than a bad flu – at least the flu eventually goes away), so I thought I’d take a stab at reviving this thread. I’ve spent the last couple of days perusing the old posts and found them quite amusing and very informative. Hopefully, aspiring and established writers will buzz in and share the wealth.



If I can kick things off with discussion about narrative voice(s). What I’m working on now is first person; very different from anything I’ve tried before. It’s great fun, but also a challenge. Any thoughts from learned Kitten scribes?



Lipcandy - I asked the mods to re-activate this thread a couple of days ago. I'd meant to post the above, but didn't get a chance until now. I'm glad to see some action right away. Right now I just want to toss this around (narrative voices) as something to chew over as well as the architecture of writing and the whole 'feedback ho' thing (what the hell is it with writers, are we such ego maniacs/insecure twerps that we can't validate our existence without someone telling what did right and what we did wrong.



I join into the Self Help Group for Feedback Ho's - I think we need a 12-step program - lol. Like others, I live for feedback and have this terrible tendency to become highly irrational and thoroughly depressed when I don't see anything - ignoring, of course, the ever-increasing page view counter with each update I post. I suppose if people don't like it, they won't keep looking for more - lol



Cheers!!

Patches



You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Patches
 


Tag Lines

Postby Patches » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:45 pm

Sorry for the double post, but this is unrelated to the previous theme.



Does anyone have any suggestions (links, books etc) that thoroughly explains proper use and punctuation for tag lines, and (maybe) for correct technical manuscript formatting. The sites I've found give only a cursory explanations. Muchly thanks.



Patches

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

Patches
 


Re: Tag Lines

Postby justin » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:02 pm

I'm not sure if this is what you're specifically after but one book that you can use for help with writing style is William Strunk's Elements of style.



There's an online version here



HTH



Postel's Prescription: Be generous in what you accept, rigorous in what you emit.

justin
 


Narrative Voice

Postby JustSkipIt » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:52 pm

Hi Patches. You write...



Quote:
If I can kick things off with discussion about narrative voice(s). What I’m working on now is first person; very different from anything I’ve tried before. It’s great fun, but also a challenge. Any thoughts from learned Kitten scribes?
It's an interesting question and one I recently played with. I tend to avoid first-person like the plague. But I also want to grow and mature as a writer, and I think that part of that is challenging myself to use techniques or voices that I might not be comfortable with. With my long works: Turned, Y'all, Paths, etc. I don't tend to play around. But in my episodic stuff (mainly Please), I use the opportunity to do just that. I will say to myself, "this one is about experimenting with first-person voice" or "this one is about embedding a story within another story."



When I experimented with first-person, one of the things that I noticed is that for me, it came out all present tense. I didn't want to be writing a journal entry: “School was so boring today…” Tara wrote. I wanted to tell the story as it was happening. When using third person, that seemed much easier to me than using first-person which by definition seemed to be in present tense, as if W/T were thinking into a recorder that was taking down my words and putting them on the paper/screen right then. At the same time, I felt that it was much more raw and powerful. It was as if I, as the writer, didn’t have the space to mute their reactions. It was W/T’s passion and emotion at 100% rather than the third-person narrator’s interpretation of their passion and emotion.



I always wonder about this as I read a work in first-person. Am I supposed to be reading it and thinking that it is a journal entry? Is it someone’s memories of the story? How did I, the reader, get into the story? While I enjoyed the experiment, I couldn’t imagine writing a long work in first person. I feel like I would have such a hard time justifying the voice.



And first-person definitely has pros and cons. In using third person, the writer can choose which doors to reveal and which to keep closed. The writer can reveal the thoughts of one character, more than one, or none at all (although I would find that pretty boring). But with first person, we have only the narrator’s thoughts. But that makes it easier to “play tricks” or put surprises on our characters.



I guess the most important thing to me is that you keep challenging yourself to grow in your writing style. If you’re not comfortable with first-person, try it. Keep making exercises to try. I remember when I was reading Michael Chabon’s Mysteries of Pittsburg: people kept asking me if I liked it and I kept saying, “I have the feeling he’s trying to learn how to write.” When I read The Amazing Adventures of Kavelier and Clay, I told the same people: “he did.”



I’ve been reading Natalie Goldberg’s Writing Down the Bones and am starting her Wild Mind. I highly recommend her work. To summarize (not a reasonable thing to do and I beg her forgiveness), she compares writing practice to meditation or exercise or pursuing any other practice. She wants the writer to write every day for a committed amount of time. Just get the hand moving. It’s a very simple and yet overwhelming thought and commitment and one which, I have to admit, I have not made.







---

"Your little will can't do anything. It takes Great Determination. Great Determination doesn't mean just you making an effort. It means the whole universe is behind you and with you - the birds, trees, sky, moon, and ten directions." - Katagiri Roshi

JustSkipIt
 


Breath of Life?

Postby Patches » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:45 pm

Well, I thought perhaps I'd toss out a line and see if there are any nibbles from writers, thinking about it, wannabe one (waving frantically, hello), am one, or (bowing down before greatness) published authors.



I was trolling on-line (to keep with this insane fishing theme my brain started) looking to reel in info on queer publishing houses in Canada, and encountered page after page of dead links, and dead ends. The occasional publisher listed lesbian works either "feminist/lesbian" or as a sub genre of women's studies. Frustration mounted; is the GLBT fiction industry in Canada dead, or just invisible.



Zo, you now have the next Lambda/Booker award winning novel in your hot little hands ... how do you find someone to publish it? I'm certain we've all closed the cover of a book or magazine and thought, "God! I'm a better writer than this author!" What seperates "us" from "them" is the fact that "they" are published, while "we" are not. Why do poor writers have their works published while wordsmiths toil and see their blood, sweat and tears end up in the publishers slush pile at best, or with a forest's worth of FOADs on their desk? Comments, thoughts ... a comprehensive list of publishers (from any country) who promote LGBT works, broken down by genre, complete with links and submission guidelines ... Or anything else of interest to those who just love to write.



Cheers!!

Patches



btw, FOAD = 'F" Off And Die, if you were wondering

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Patches
 

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