Fighting Our Fight: the Gay Politics Thread

[willowrulz4ever]

keep a few things in mind.



Bush can endorse such an amendment but it is up to congress to vote on it or not.



Getting bush out of offce will not be enough to kill this.Kerry could get elected and if the Dems do not gain back control of at least one of the houses of congress it couldstill be introduced.



Calling Bush an asshole and a scumbag dumb money just makes us look bad.



attack his polices.Fine.but when we call him nmes and attack his character we are nobetter than the GOP during Clinton's administration.I did not agree with a lot of Clinton's policies but I would not tolerate personal attacks.



Everytime you call bush names or make fun of those who do not agree with us you are validating the message of the Limbaugh's that gays hate everyone that do not agree with them 100%.



it makes it easier to diminish our arguements as just mean spirited attacks on Bush and or religous conservatves.



The GOP is not are only problem.Many dems refuse to take a stand.



i don't know John Kerry,or George Bush,or Bill Clinton.They all may be great people when you get to know them one on one.All I can know is their policies and whether or not I agree with them.



The legal benefits marriage gives is a right that all people who are united should have.Let individual ministers decide who they will or will not unte.



Ronnie

[willowrulz4ever]

Quote:

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but you can't tell others how to express ther anger

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I wasn't.you have every right to say anything you want.



i was expressing my opinion that it s not the right way to go.



the way liberals talk about Bush is no different than the way Conservatives talked about Clinton.It is hateful and mean spirited.I renouced conservatism becuase of that hatefulness.



You can call him anything you want.On this board,in real life,where ever.



I was not challenging your right to post what you did or anyones else right to post what they did.I was asking whether or not name calling,bashing and character assinination are the way to go.

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He is a slimey hypocritical bigoted evolutionary misfit.

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This is exactly what I am talking about.



What if someone posted that on this list about a liberal poltical figure you admire? Would you stand up and defend ther right to post that or would you say this board is not the place for that crap.



I admire the people on this list even when I was hardcore conservative they attacked my ideas,not me.it opened my eyes.



I got pretty nasty with Joss on the Lesbian Clique thread.I was wrong.



post what you want.But I still say name calling and personal attacks brings us down to their level.



I am encouraging folks to take the high road.I am not looking down on those who don't.I used to heap tons of venom on the Clintons.I realize now that I was wrong to do that.



A soft answer turneth away wrath.I dream of an America where people of all believes and ideologies can debate their believes and the coversation is about the merit of those beleves not personal attacks.



personal attacks and name calling is something that has to go if that is ever going to happen.





Ronnie

Edited by: willowrulz4ever at: 2/24/04 10:38 am

[kpmuse]

I agree Xita. Shame on President Bush and those who back this amendment. I feel quite comfortable saying that because I consider this a political strategy first and foremost and not a policy issue. The campaign is using this amendment strategy to get reelected. They are trying to change the focus off of Bush's political problems by changing the discussion. I hope the American people will not allow this.

For this reason, Bush & Rove, the human beings, are responsible for this tactic. We can hold him accountable for this.



The "compassionate conservative", the "uniter - not divider" they claim as the President's being is in fact a purely cold, calculating strategist in this case. Shame on this man!

[Kieli]

Quote:

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I was not challenging your right to post what you did or anyones else right to post what they did.I was asking whether or not name calling,bashing and character assinination are the way to go.

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I do agree with you, don't get me wrong. It's just some days, the man makes you want to pull out your own hair by the roots. If one didn't vent a little, one would go mad. And I sure don't need any help in that direction.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Karmah]

wow you people on this board don't like W? Gee wonder why...could it be his homophobic attitude or the fact he lies almost as much as Clinton. Or hey maybe its just him being him

[sam7777]

The republicans are back to using the politics of bigotry and hate to get the Whitehouse. Bush senior used the Willy Horton AD to criminalize African Americans and beat Dukakis. Now Bush JR is using gay marriage to demonize gays and enrgize his base. Dividing the country is all the Republicans know how to do. They know it will be a close election. They are counting on getting their concervative base out to vote. Those conservatives unhappy with the budget deficit are always happy to come out and vote on social issues. It's truly a shame. This could be a great country if our leadership tried to bring people together rather than divide them.



Since Bush can't run on the failure of his economy to create jobs, the endless the war in Iraq, the misrepresentations on WMDs and the huge deficit, it's back to the politics of hate.



The democrats will not come out in favor of gay marraiage but at least they won't propose and ammendment. I am an independent but in the last election I voted for Gore because it was too close in Florida and I did not want Bush part 2. This time I will also be voting democratic. Though I desire more party choices, another four years of Bush will be a disaster IMHO.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[Gatito Grande]

Ronnie, there's a reason I named this thread "Fighting Our Fight": this is a safe zone, where can feel free to trash homophobic motherf*ckers like Dubya as much as we want to. Out in the public square, it's a different story: righteous rage is necessary, even desirable, but should be channeled into productive (non 4-letter word!) uses.



Over on the Marriage thread, I see that Tim has predicted (apparently w/ a little inside info? ) that the "Enshrined Bigotry" Amendment has no chance. Great, but better safe than sorry: if you haven't already (or even if you have) write/call/fax your U.S. Senators today! (Contact your House Rep, too, but the House isn't the bulwark of last-defense that the Senate is: Conservative Republicans in safe seats dominate it ).



If you've noticed the tack of the scum-sucking 'phobes, it's to talk about "4 activist judges in Mass." and "one arrogant mayor in SF": it's like the all the gay couples demanding the right to be married don't even exist! (So I guess all those lines I saw around SF City Hall were done w/ CGI?)



Far more encouraging, was an email that CNN published a couple of days ago, which (para.) said: "I was against gay marriage, until I saw the pictures of all those couples in San Francisco. That made it real to me---why shouldn't they have equal rights?" Every time the GOP b*stards (and yes, some Demo ones also) try to make this about "judges" and "mayors," we've got to bring up the REAL COUPLES again and again. It's not about "enshrining" or "protecting" something: it's about slamming the door in the face of those couples, and branding them second-class citizens forever.



GG WRITE/CALL/FAX YOUR SENATORS!!! Out

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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i was expressing my opinion that it s not the right way to go.



.....



I was not challenging your right to post what you did or anyones else right to post what they did.I was asking whether or not name calling,bashing and character assinination are the way to go.

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You may want to reread your previous post and that particular comment because I do not see you asking a question or questioning anything. I see you stating your opinion as fact.

Quote:

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What if someone posted that on this list about a liberal poltical figure you admire? Would you stand up and defend ther right to post that or would you say this board is not the place for that crap.

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I recall you saying not such nice things about former president Clinton in another thread and I did reply to you about that, but it had nothing to do with the way you expressed your criticism about him, just the criticism itself, it would not have mattered to me if you had called him a lying cheating asshole instead of the worst president since... There´s a place here for ´trashing´ liberal politicians if you feel so inclined, you´d probably get a lot of people disagreeing with you, but there is no place for calling another poster´s opinion, or the way they express it, crap.

Quote:

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I admire the people on this list even when I was hardcore conservative they attacked my ideas,not me.it opened my eyes.

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You are a member of this board, so far I´ve disagreed with you over just about everything, but I will not call you names or attack you personally. That is not the way we talk to each other on this board and if anyone tries they will be edited. Should I ever slip up I will be edited too. George Bush however, is not a member of this board, neither is Joss Whedon. If they behave in an offensive manner this is where we can rant about it in strong terms without having to justify ourselves. We do not have to spare the rod -or in this case, the word- when it comes to the rest of the world.

I´m not perfect and I have been know to have a temper, but not without provocation, and I won´t call everyone that pisses me off an asshole, but George Bush is in a catagory all on his own and for me it feels good to get some of my anger out of my system. If you do not want to rant that then fine, but other people may want to and they can do it here without question.



Now if I had the chance to speak my mind on international television, I would not be calling George Bush a half-witted pea brained chromosomally challenged two faced weasel, I would not be wondering out loud whether his parents threw away the baby and kept the afterbirth. I´m sure that would not be productive. I am quite capable of countering any and all of his offensive statements in a calm manner without every using one naughty word, but right here, right now I don´t want to and I don´t have to.



If you or anyone has any questions or further comments about this you can take it to email so as not to get this thread off topic.

Edited by: DrG at: 2/24/04 2:03 pm

[Urn of Osiris]

I'm not generally a political person. I vote in every election so I can bitch about the assholes that get into office. I agree with an earlier post that politicians seem to be dividing this country. The foundation of this nation is divide and conquer. What bothers me right now is that the president is standing before the world and tagging the gay community as less then human. What he is saying is that the true measure of a person is their heterosexual orientation.



What a pile of steaming shit!



The issue is what is fair and equal. The issue is what every American, no every Human being is entitled to. Equal rights to choose their life direction. I'm not going to debate marriage with some biblical definition or some legal bullshit because the fact is that the concept is defined by every couple that makes the commitment. This country is about freedom. It is supposed to offer the world an example of openminded living but what they hear are the loudmouthed hate mongers and that is their America.



I have come to love this board. I have grown to call so many of you friends and family. I feel like a mom to some here. I'd love to witness marriages and unions and whatever life leads you to. GWB does not speak for all hets. His ideas and thoughts *uses term loosely* are not mine.



I've sent the e-mails. I've written the letters. I've shared my views with those that spout such hate in my presence.



Where is the voice that will make a difference? Where is the true celebration that is lost in the debate over defining it?



Instead of fighting for family values why not fight to value the family! Without definitions that exclude!!!

Urn of Osiris"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story." Max Ehrmann Desiderata

Edited by: Urn of Osiris  at: 2/24/04 4:17 pm

[TexanZeppo256]

(sorry, dead links)

---------------------------------



There she is! There she is... Ahh... Not so wounded as we were led to believe... So much the better. --Khan, "Star Trek II: WOK"



From The Land of Tolerance,

---The Texan Zeppo

Edited by: TexanZeppo256 at: 2/25/04 1:33 pm

[xita]

Yes it's so comparable because while my hate is intended as venting their hate is taken out with physical violence and through agents such as constitutional amendments and abuse of law.



Don't compare apples to oranges. Maybe you should sit around and listen and read and find out how a civil rights movement operates. The second you see people here adovcating the bombing of things (like abortion clinics) or passing legislation that would prevent right wingers from getting married, then you can call us on something. It's called venting and I am going to do plenty of it here. And I hope my fellow kittens can feel safe to do that. I also hope that we all understand that when we write our congressmen and attend protests that we conduct ourselves accordingly.



I don't feel it's an insult or inappropriate to say Bush is an idiot.



We won't debate whether this is the appropriate place to vent or not. It is.. and that's that. Issues with that should be taken to email.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

Edited by: xita  at: 2/24/04 7:38 pm

[xita]

Thanks urnie, I am so happy to be on this board and know that so many people here regardless of sexual orientation recognize the true value of family and love.



Was I angry this morning? You bet, I had no warning when I was listening to the news on the radio on my way to work. This man had the nerve to propose a constitutional amendment to deny my constitutional rights and then suggest that we don't get angry about it. How nice it must be to just throw some thing up in the air for the purposes of getting re-elected. It's not as easy when it is your life and the life of others around you. Anyway, I think intelligent kittens know when and where to throw their anger. If Larry King would have me on his show, you can bet I would not use such language. God knows I love the board, but I know what this is and whom I am talking to.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[willowrulz4ever]

I am sorry if i offended anyone that was not my intent.



It is just if you subistitue the name Clinton for Bush this boards anti Bush posts are not that different from the anti Clinton posts on conservative boards I have been on.This concerns me.



This is on topic.I want to win the fight for civil union rights for gays.What concerns me is are we going to become just like the extreme right in the process of winning our battle.



Just as mean spirited.



Maybe I am overeacting.I hope I am.



Yes,I got hateful to Clinton.I hated him and his wife.I was wrong.









Name calling is a tool of a majority of the right that I have come into contact with.I am trying to put that behind me.It just bothers me when I see something similar on a board like this.



we won our fights but we hurt a lot of people in the process.

I just don't want to see our fight become ugly and devisive like those waged by our enemies.

[cattwoman98111]

I don’t think I have been this angry in a very long time. Angry enough to write my Rep? You bet your sweet ass I am. Do I plan on writing them while this upset, not on your life, but I will write...oh yes...I will write.



And I will settle for a little less colorful adjective (than what I WAS calling him) to describe Mr. Bush

-incompetent.

[good2cats]

I am really pissed.To win reelection Bush has just metaphorically sucked off Jerry Falwell and is wiping his mouth on the Constitution.This pandering to the Christan Right has got to stop.If he wants to defend the sanctity of marriage you would think that he would propose constitutional amendment to make divorce illegal but that won't buy him many votes.I am planning on writing my Congressman but given that he is as big idiot as Bush I do not expect much.This blatant bigotry flies in the face of everything that I was raised to believe. I guess his new campaign slogan could be Go Ahead Discriminate They are Just Fagots After All.

[Jimmi Magnus]

Quote:

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id·i·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-t)

n.

A foolish or stupid person.

A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

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Xita, it may be from an old classification system, but the term idiot applied to GWB seems correct. Not offensiv

"What year is it?" Amber Benson

Edited by: Jimmi Magnus at: 2/25/04 3:33 am

[Kieli]

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Ths whole secularist push to drive religion out of the public square is just as bigoted as the ammendment that bush is proposing.

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Um, no, try again. The secularists are trying to keep the Religious Right from ramming their religion down their throats. If Muslims or Buddhists or Wiccans were allowed to post their religious and philosophical tenets on all public buildings, I would give a good goddamn what Christian saying was posted as well because they would ALL get equal billing. That has NOT happened and that is NOT what the so-called "secularist movement"'s goal is. They want the separation of church and state and I am staunchly for that. Precious little good has ever come out of a marriage of church and state. In fact, over history it has been proven that the two together help to foster racism, sexism, classism, separatism and all sorts of other nasty little -isms you can think of. Keeping religion out of the public forum is the best thing we can do to ensure some sort of impartiality. You can't even begin to compare the two because the arguement won't hold water.

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GLAAD is no better than the Christian Coalition when t cmes to trying to police thought.

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GLAAD does not have enough teeth to make that happen. Right now, they're a laughingstock even among the gay community. They've been pandering to the media too long. But that's just my observation. The purpose of organizations like GLAAD, however, are not to be the thought police but to get people to think...and god forbid we actually do that True there are extremists on both sides. But don't make the mistake of over-generalizing...that can make you just as closed off to the truth as the people you're accusing.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 2/25/04 6:44 am

[willowrulz4ever]

Quote:

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The second you see people here adovcating the bombing of things (like abortion clinics)

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Most conservatives don't advocate the bombig of abortion clinics.



Some Liberals are just as closed minded as conservatives.



I see the same all or nothing philosiphy conservatives have.



Federaly recognized Civil unions with all the rights of marrage.Not good enough.I has to be called marriage.Who cares what are opponents think they are all just a bunch of homophobes.

Who cares if most moderates will support civil unions with all the rights of marriage,but want the termmarriage reserved for hetrosexual cuoples.it is our way or the highway.



You look down on them the same way they look down on you.



The gay rights movement is using a sledge hammer to open an egg.



You can tell yourself they are the intolerant ones and we are the open minded ones.You are half right.They are intolerant but I see just as much intolerance on the left as the right.



No the gay leadership doesn't bomb abortion clinics or beat those they don't agree with.Neither do most on the right.



Both sides are trying to fight over who gets to be the nations thought police.



GLAAD is no better than the Christian Coalition when t cmes to trying to police thought.



Ths whole secularist push to drive religion out of the public square is just as bigoted as the ammendment that bush is proposing.



I want to see us win our fight.I am just not interested in pyrrhic victories which in my opinion is exactly where this is heading.



Ronnie.

[AmbeRocks]

Man I am even more proud to not live in the usa right now!

reading the papers, I was wondering if the time started going backward in the 90s and are you now back to the 60s??



you all know this isn't an attack to americans, just the guy who happens to lead the country...

There is such a variety of well-invented things that the earth is like the breasts of a woman: useful as well as pleasing - Nietzsche

[Karmah]

Just my two cents

when we fight among one another it only hurts us. Sure we are all going to have varying political beliefs. I know coming to this thread as a republican is not really the smartest move on my part, most days. And I was just pissed off enough to come listen to some Bush bashing, and actually enjoy it. Does that mean I am turning to the perviable darkside ummm no . Will I be voting for Jr this time umm no. Bottom line where politics are personal we shouldn't let others comments affect us personally sometime the most innocent of comments get taken way out of hand, some of us Kittens are way sarcastic by nature and even though we are saying it in a sarcastic nature others take it as meant literally. Keep and open mind and have a nice day! And don't forget to write your Reps and tell them what you want let your voice be heard.



Arron

She walks in beauty, Like the night of cloudless climes and starry skies;

And all that's best of dark and bright. Meet in her aspect and her eyes.

~ by Byron ~

[Urn of Osiris]

The point is that it shouldn't be about us and them. It should be about equal and just. If you want marriage to be a right in this counrty it should be a right for every tax paying citizen of age. Just as it is a right for women to vote. As it is a right for people of color to ride on any god damn seat on the bus. It is logical because it is fair for all.



The idea isn't to force beliefs on anyone it is to preserve the the right for us to have those beliefs. When did law making become a definition for humanity. I hate abortion. I hate divorce. I hate guns. But those are mine and I would defend every person's right to choose their own. Why? because what is law for one is law for all. Ultimately living with the decision is yours and yours alone to bare. Take responsibility! Live with honor! Then you won't be so afraid to see the beauty in diversity.



Take the religious bullshit out of the equation. It is time for equal to mean equal, for love to be conditionless and for peace to come with a handshake not a handgun.

Urn of Osiris"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story." Max Ehrmann Desiderata

[Gatito Grande]

Ronnie, you're getting stuck again: stuck in cognitive dissonance. At various points since you've joined this board, I've seen you get stuck---stuck in that place where Reality and What you were taught diverge so dramatically. But then I've seen you get unstuck, and grow. It's time for that to happen again.



Having studied the Christian Right extensively (for my doctoral degree), I know how great their sense of victimization is. To the extent that they are "poor white trash" left out in the economic cold, there's even some truth to it. But it's NOT due to their religion or conservative politics (or race, for that matter). Just because they Boo Hoo over how "Hollywood liberal elites" mock them, doesn't mean that they're actually victims . . . in the way that LGBTs are: discriminated against by law, and physically assaulted just for being who they are.



LGBTs face actual discrimination in the Real World, and it makes us angry. The Christian Right feels persecuted in their own heads, and wanna take out their fear and loathing on someone else: often us LGBTs (when it's not Jews, as it is today over Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic snuff film).



Cognitive dissonance, Ronnie. The anger of the oppressed , and the paranoia of the oppressor ain't the same.



GG Who are you going to trust? Out

[TexanZeppo256]

(Sorry about the double post, But I just realized that the links i used were dead. I've fixed them. Enjoy)



*Ahem*



I saw the MSN report on dubya and the Amendment about 2 hours ago. I'm still just a tad bit pissed, but this helped to ease the flaring anger. (BTW, if you're easily offended by harsh language and/or do not understand what parodies or sarcasm are, I would highly recomend that you ignore this post)



Here's my opinion of Bush and his radical right lackies: Speech. (You can read the words here)



Violent, over the top and slightly insane? All true, but so is this ammendment.



Send it to anyone who would either get a kick out of it, or be royally pissed at. Either way, they're prolly going to be an avid church goer, lol.



All's fair in love and war...



I wonder what my parents would think of this?



---Ryan

---------------------------------



There she is! There she is... Ahh... Not so wounded as we were led to believe... So much the better. --Khan, "Star Trek II: WOK"



From The Land of Tolerance,

---The Texan Zeppo

[Kieli]

I thought this was rather enlightening:



GOP isn't united behind ban on gay marriage

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Karmah]

A heterosexual, Jesuit-educated, Irish Catholic son of a prominent state judge, Newsom is an unlikely bomb-thrower. The wealthy 36-year-old wine and restaurant entrepreneur with movie-star looks took office only seven weeks ago. He received at best moderate support from the city's gay community in his narrow December victory over a Green Party opponent. But Newsom stunned even his closest aides when he returned from Bush's State of the Union address last month, saying he was appalled by the president's comments about preserving the "sanctity of marriage," if necessary, by a constitutional amendment. "I had just taken an oath of office not to allow discrimination," Newsom told NEWSWEEK. "It was pretty darned clear what my obligations were."

Newsom could have issued his challenge through the courts, claiming that a state law defining marriage as a contract between a man and a woman violated the California constitution's guarantee of equal protection under the law. Instead, he says, he decided to "put a human face" on the issue by marrying couples first and then waging the legal battle. "Rosa Parks didn't wait for the courts to tell her it was all right to ride in the front of the bus," says Newsom. "It's never, ever, the 'right' time for change." To get started, mayoral aides invited two longtime lesbian activists, Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, a couple for 51 years, to come and get the first license. "Why should my wife and I, who have been married for only two years, be entitled to more rights than they are after half a century?" asks Newsom

She walks in beauty, Like the night of cloudless climes and starry skies;

And all that's best of dark and bright. Meet in her aspect and her eyes.

~ by Byron ~

[Ben Varkentine]

...or anybody else who may know. Just wondering if anyone's seen a good round up of how Bush's pandering to homophobes is playing around the world.

Ben



"Never be discouraged from being an activist because people tell you that you'll not succeed. You have already succeeded if you're out there representing truth or justice or compassion or fairness or love."

-- Doris 'Granny D' Haddock

[willowrulz4ever]

Just answer me some questions.Maybe i have the wrong idea.I am more than willing to admit it if i am wrong.



1) Do you believe everyone who is against civil marriage for gays are homophobes?



2) Do you believe everyone who believes homosexuality is a sin is a homophobe.



3) Do you believe reaching out to those who oppose is a fruitful strategy.



4) The religous right votes their beliefs.So do we.They work towards a country that reflects their beliefs.So do we.







a) Why are they cramming their beliefs down our throat and we are fighting the good fight?.





b) have you ever considered from their point of veiw we are cramming our believes down their throats.



5)Have you ever considered that however misguided the religous rights oppisition to gay marrage is that it may be motivated by factors other than hate of gays.



These are questions I am struggling with.Maybe the insight of others can help me.



Tabby

Edited by: willowrulz4ever at: 2/25/04 8:25 pm

[Jimmi Magnus]

Here in Denmark I have only seen a few articles about it. All of them only stating the facts of what Bush has said, and a brief synopsis about the ammendment process. No evaluation. I assume this is because it's seen as just another round of internal popularity politics. (unlike the whole Janet Jackson thing, which had the media over here widely ridicule anyone who reacted negatively to that).

-Branded sexist. Labelled racist. Want it clearer? Check the mirror.

[maudmac]

Yes, anyone who hates me for my sexual orientation is a bigot. No matter their reasoning, they are homophobic.



Of course it's fruitful to reach out to people who aren't already on our side. I think it's always fruitful to reach out to pretty much everyone, everywhere. But there's only so much reaching any of us can do and some people are not going to be swayed by anything we do.



They're cramming their beliefs down our throats because they can. We are outside their comfort zone and we make them itchy and nervous and feeling like the bottom is going to drop out of their world. I get that. I know it's hard to see things change, especially when you really, really, really like things the way they are. But some changes are just necessary because they are right. Lots of men didn't like the idea of women voting and they honestly believed it would be the end of civilization as they knew it. They really thought they were protecting America by denying women the right to vote.



Of course we're fighting the good fight! How could anyone think we aren't?



Ronnie, how are we cramming our beliefs down their throat by asking/demanding to have the same rights that everyone else has? Would you suggest that women and black folks who wanted to vote were cramming their beliefs down male and white throats as they struggled for voting rights? If I am able to marry my gf, it crams not a goddamn thing down a single person's throat anywhere.



The most extreme of the religious right advocates execution for gays and lesbians. The less extreme of the religious right still doesn't want us to have the same rights they and everyone else have. Frankly, I don't care what lurks in their hearts and minds that makes them believe that. I don't have to walk in their shoes. Whatever their beliefs may be, it doesn't give them the right to deny me my rights. If they follow some teachings that say gays and lesbians are evil or dangerous, well, those teachings are bigotry. That's all there is to it, as far as I'm concerned. Being religious doesn't give you a free pass to be a bigot. All manner of discrimination throughout history has been perpetrated by people who used some teachings (religious, political, whatever) or another to justify it. Nothing makes discrimination okay.

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I have no professional training. I already gave my best. I have no regrets at all.

[emma peel]

Thank you, maudmac.