The Current Events/Issues Thread - Read the First Post

[maudmac]

The Current Events/Issues Thread



Kittens, here's a thread to talk about current events and issues.



It's crucial that we all be respectful of one another and differing opinions. We aren't all going to agree and if you're reading and posting in this thread, it's important that you respect your fellow Kittens and their right to disagree and remember that not everyone grew up in or lives in the same culture or political climate as you do. Passions run high on the issues we'll be discussing, but we should all be able to share our views here respectfully.



Guidelines:

• No name-calling whatsoever.
• Do not criticize others for holding a different opinion.
• Your post can be edited or removed at any time, if you cross the line.
• No flag waving or superior nationalism. There are people here from many different countries and none of these are perfect.
• In order to avoid a confrontational, adversarial, antagonistic environment or creating factions between us, please do not post to just to cheer another post.

---the mods

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So up on your feet. Up on your feet! Somewhere there’s music playing.
Don’t you worry none. We’ll just take it like it comes. One day at a time, one day at a time.
-- "One Day at a Time" - John and Nancy Barry

[cattwoman98111]

ok, as some of you might be aware, we in Seattle are dealing with the accused Green River Killer Gary Ridgeway. Now, a small background for those of you unfamiliar with the case. From approximately 1980 to present (the time is debatable) we in Seattle had a series of killings. Mostly prostitutes. The total number of victims is unknown and may never be known but it is at least 48 confirmed deaths. Today the man arrested in connection to these deaths pled guilty to 48 counts of 1st degree murder, 48 counts. He made a deal with the county that if he confessed they would not sentence him to the death penalty. Now, Washington State is a capital punishment state, and the prosecution had stated early on that it would not bargain the death penalty away. However, they recently decided to save the taxpayers about 12 million in court fees and not go for the death penalty if Ridgeway pled guilty. Now here is the question, if a person was to assassinate Gary Ridgeway, would it be viewed as murder, justifiably homicide, or justice? The reason I ask is my mother and I got into a discussion tonight about the case, she was born and raised Catholic, but in light of the events surrounding this case, fully supports capital punishment for Ridgeway as do I(not Catholic). Just to clear up any doubt, Gary Ridgeway is a monster and what I would consider a Psychopath who feels no remorse or guilt for anything he has done. I’m just curious as to what the kittens think about this.

I want it. Give it to me. I love it. 7-Year Bitch

[Gatito Grande]

Respectfully, Gary Ridgeway is a human being (and ergo, not a monster. He has apparently done monstrous things).



I am of the belief that to kill human beings is always wrong---though if he had been sentenced to death, legally his execution would not be "murder."



I am curious that you say "Psychopath" as if it made Ridgeway more reprehensible, morally. By definition, to be a psychopath is to be mentally ill---which should, in some sense at least, diminish his moral responsibility for his crimes.



While there is obviously no happy outcome resulting from so much death, I am satisfied that Mr. Ridgeway has received life in prison. This should allow society to protect itself from his psychopathological violence, perhaps (if this has not been abolished) enable Ridgeway to receive some treatment for his illness and, most important, enable relevant professionals to study him: to learn how to identify and treat such illness before it results in violence.



GG That's just one Kitten's opinion. Out

[FlyingPoppy]

I believe that to take another's life is morally wrong, whether it be lawful or not. This isn't a religious belief , just my personal stand point. To sentence someone to death because they've killed someone is that old eye for an eye mentality, which doesn't do anyone any good, in my opinion.

To answer your question, yes I would consider it murder if someone assassinated Gary Ridgeway, true he's commited some heinous crimes, but that doesn't justify killing him. I know some people would consider it justice, but I'm definitely not one of them.

Life can suck, but at least there's chocolate - Cicca

[fluffylamb]

In Massachusetts, convicted child molest John Geoghan, a defrocked Catholic priest accused by over 130 men of having molested them as boys over the, was killed in prison by another inmate in a carefully planned attack. Geoghan, a frail 68-year-old was housed near 37-year Joseph Druce, who is imprisoned for the murder of a gay man. There are a lot of questions as to how Druce had access to Geoghan. Although I have sympathy for Geoghan’s family, I find it hard to have much sympathy for the man himself after all the damage he has done to so many. Druce, the man that killed Geoghan, certainly is no hero or agent of justice, but the man didn’t kill a boy scout. Massachusetts doesn’t have the death penalty, so Druce gets a two-for-one deal. It is hard for me to value the life a person who has shown so little respect for the lives of others. The lives of John Geoghan or Gary Ridgeway or Joseph Druce mean less to me than lives of the innocent victims. Unless there is extraordinary security around Gary Ridgeway, he will almost certainly be attack and killed in prison like John Geoghan.



My biggest objection to the death penalty is more practical than moral or religious. I would be more supportive if it provided any measure of deterrence. All evidence indicates that it doesn’t. An effective punishment should both punish offenders and deter potential offenders. The threat of execution is so small that it’s not a consideration during the crime. It’s expensive and clogs the court system. For those that are going to spend the rest of their natural lives in jail, make the murders’ lives as miserable as possible. No TV, no gyms, same boring food everyday. Strip the prisons of any comforts and give the money to the school system.



On the morality of the death penality, do I think that vicious, consciousless murders have a right to live. No. Do I have a right to pass that judgement and impose my belief? Again, no. I don’t like that people like Gary Ridgeway get to keep taking up space in this world, but who I am, or who is anybody, to decide who lives and who dies and under what circumstances? Ere on the side of caution and mercy, even for those who have shown none to others.

"In fluent aphasia the subject talks at great length, but are unaware that what they are saying makes no sense."
Art said, "I know a lot of people with that problem." -Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars

[yana]

I'm generally against killing people (capital punishment *or* just someone seeking vengeance on their own), but not for the reasons most people have listed so far.



One reason (and it doesn't apply to the Green River case, but it is relevant for many others) is that sometimes the wrong people are convicted and sent to death row. This happens at an alarming rate.



The other reason is that I believe Gary Ridgeway (and others like him) doesn't deserve to die. As I don't know what happens to people when they die, I would say people have to be accountable for their actions in this life. If you kill the guy, IMO, he gets off pretty easily. Give him a few decades to think about what he's done instead.

"We are one, the gurus say. Aye -- I might agree -- but one what?" -- Edward Abbey

[Warduke]

Read this over at Yahoo...

Quote:

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Saddam Hussein Captured Alive Near Tikrit



By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer



BAGHDAD, Iraq - Without firing a shot, American forces captured a bearded and haggard-looking Saddam Hussein in an underground hide-out on a farm near his hometown of Tikrit, ending one of the most intensive manhunts in history. The arrest was a huge victory for U.S. forces battling an insurgency by the ousted dictator's followers.



"Ladies and gentlemen, we got him," U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer told a news conference Sunday, eight months after American troops swept into Baghdad and toppled Saddam's regime.



"The tyrant is a prisoner."



In the capital, radio stations played celebratory music, residents fired small arms in the air in celebration and passengers on buses and trucks shouted, "They got Saddam! They got Saddam!"



Washington hopes Saddam's capture will help break the organized Iraq resistance that has killed more than 190 American soldiers since President Bush declared major combat over on May 1 and has set back efforts at reconstruction. U.S. commanders have said that while in hiding Saddam played some role in the guerrilla campaign blamed on his followers.



In the latest attack, a suspected suicide bomber detonated explosives in a car outside a police station Sunday morning west of Baghdad, killing at least 17 people and wounding 33 more, the U.S. military said.



Saddam was one of the most-wanted fugitives in the world, along with Osama bin Laden, the leader of the al-Qaida terrorist network who has not been caught despite a manhunt since November 2001, when the Taliban regime was overthrown in Afghanistan.



Saddam was captured at 8:30 p.m. Saturday in a walled farm compound in Adwar, a town 10 miles from Tikrit, said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq. The cellar was little more than a specially prepared "spider hole" with just enough space to lie down. Bricks and dirt camouflaged the entrance.



A Pentagon diagram showed the hiding place as a 6-foot-deep vertical tunnel, with a shorter tunnel branching out horizontally from one side. A pipe to the concrete surface at ground level provided air. The entrance to the hide-out was under the floor of a small, walled compound with a room in one corner and a lean-to attached to the room. The tunnel was roughly in the middle of the compound.



A U.S. defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Saddam admitted his identity when captured.



Sanchez, who saw Saddam overnight, said the deposed leader "has been cooperative and is talkative." He described Saddam as "a tired man, a man resigned to his fate."



"He was unrepentant and defiant," said Adel Abdel-Mahdi, a senior official of a Shiite Muslim political party who, along with other Iraqi leaders, visited Saddam in captivity.



"When we told him, 'If you go to the streets now, you will see the people celebrating,'" Abdel-Mahdi said. "He answered, 'Those are mobs.' When we told him about the mass graves, he replied, 'Those are thieves.'"



The official added: "He didn't seem apologetic. He seemed defiant, trying to find excuses for the crimes in the same way he did in the past."



The White House said Saddam's capture assures the Iraqi people that the deposed leader is gone from power for good.



"The Iraqi people can finally be assured that Saddam Hussein will not be coming back — they can see it for themselves," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.



Bush planned a midday address to the nation on the capture, McClellan said.





Eager to give Iraqis evidence that the elusive former dictator had indeed been captured, Sanchez played a video at the news conference showing the 66-year-old Saddam in custody.



Saddam, with a thick, graying beard and bushy, disheveled hair, was seen as doctor examined him, holding his mouth open with a tongue depressor, apparently to get a DNA sample. Saddam touched his beard during the exam. Then the video showed a picture of Saddam after he was shaved, juxtaposed for comparison with an old photo of the Iraqi leader while in power.



Iraqi journalists in the audience stood, pointed and shouted "Death to Saddam!" and "Down with Saddam!"



Though the raid occurred Saturday afternoon American time, U.S. officials went to great length to keep it quiet until medical tests and DNA testing confirmed Saddam's identity.



DNA tests confirmed Saddam's identity, said the president of Iraqi Governing Council, Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim.



Saddam was being held at an undisclosed location, and U.S. authorities have not yet determined whether to hand him over to the Iraqis for trial or what is status would be. Iraqi officials want him to stand trial before a war crimes tribunal created last week.



Amnesty International said Sunday that Saddam should be given POW status and allowed visits by the international Red Cross.



Ahmad Chalabi, a member of Iraq's Governing Council, said Sunday that Saddam will be put on trial.



"Saddam will stand a public trial so that the Iraqi people will know his crimes," said Chalabi told Al-Iraqiya, a Pentagon-funded TV station.



British Prime Minister Tony Blair hailed the capture, saying the deposed leader "has gone from power, he won't be coming back."



"Where his rule meant terror and division and brutality, let his capture bring about unity, reconciliation and peace between all the people of Iraq," Blair said in brief comments at his 10 Downing St. office.



In Tikrit, U.S. soldiers lit cigars after hearing the news.



Some 600 troops from the 4th Infantry Division along with Special Forces captured Saddam, the U.S. military said. There were no shots fired or injuries in the raid, called "Operation Red Dawn," Sanchez said.



Two men "affiliated with Saddam Hussein" were detained with him, and soldiers confiscated two Kalashnikov rifles, a pistol, a taxi and $750,000 in $100 bills, Sanchez said. The two men were "fairly insignificant" regime figures, a U.S. defense official said.



Celebratory gunfire erupted in the capital, and shop owners closed their doors, fearful that the shooting would make the streets unsafe.



"I'm very happy for the Iraqi people. Life is going to be safer now," said 35-year-old Yehya Hassan, a resident of Baghdad. "Now we can start a new beginning."



Earlier in the day, rumors of the capture sent people streaming into the streets of Kirkuk, a northern Iraqi city, firing guns in the air in celebration.



"We are celebrating like it's a wedding," said Kirkuk resident Mustapha Sheriff. "We are finally rid of that criminal."



"This is the joy of a lifetime," said Ali Al-Bashiri, another resident. "I am speaking on behalf of all the people that suffered under his rule."



Despite the celebration throughout Baghdad, many residents were skeptical.



"I heard the news, but I'll believe it when I see it," said Mohaned al-Hasaji, 33. "They need to show us that they really have him."



Ayet Bassem, 24, walked out of a shop with her 6-year-old son.



"Things will be better for my son," she said. "Everyone says everything will be better when Saddam is caught. My son now has a future."



After invading Iraq on March 20 and setting up their headquarters in Saddam's sprawling Republican Palace compound in Baghdad, U.S. troops launched a massive manhunt for the fugitive leader, placing a $25 million bounty on his head and sending thousands of soldiers to search for him.



Saddam proved elusive during the war, when at least two dramatic military strikes came up empty in their efforts to assassinate him. Since then, he has appeared in both video and audio tapes. U.S. officials named him No. 1 on their list of 55 most-wanted Iraqis, the Ace of Spades in a special deck of most-wanted cards.



Saddam's capture leaves 13 figures still at large from the list. The highest ranking figure among them is Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, a close Saddam aide who U.S. officials have said may be directly organizing resistance.



U.S. forces had indicated they did not think Saddam would be captured alive.



Saddam's sons Qusai and Odai — each with a $15 million bounty on their heads — were killed July 22 in a four-hour gunbattle with U.S. troops in a hideout in the northern city of Mosul. The bounties were paid out to the man who owned the house where they were killed, residents said.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

We must be psychically connected. I just read the news myself whilst surfing around. I had not watched TV yet. I'll refrain from political comments as this is not the thread for it and limit myself to saying that this is good news. I hope justice will be swift and that no one will milk this news for their own personal gain. I also hope that this will mean an end to the violence in Iraq but somehow I doubt that.

[TaraBaby77]

I'm just going to give a quick, "I agree", comment. I am trying to brain dump my experience over there so... I too hope that this all comes to an end. =)

Aaron

'TaraBaby77'

Edited by: TaraBaby77 at: 12/14/03 10:39 am

[werewolf123]

Gary Ridgeway and Saddam as cell mates? Might kill two birds with one stone.

[MellindraX]

Ok, first my two cents on the Gary issue.



On capital punishment, I have a very simple, all-situations policy I've found applies well: If you've done things so horrible and twisted people actually want to see your mangled corpse, it's too good for you. Better to be stuck, suffering, in prison for the rest of your natural life. This is just my personal opinion, which I feel applies perfectly here too.



Sadam is caught, definitely cool. Everyone, I think, more or less accepts he's done some pretty evil shit over his lifetime. I don't want to see him get the death penalty (which has definitely been discussed amongst the Iraqi's who are to be in control of his case), both for the reason stated above and martyrdom. It's a sad possibility his death could spark a bit of an upheavel amongst his old followers...



Two cents spread to twn dollars.

I’ve never purposely gone out to take somebody out. Well, maybe, in elementary school I once did try to trip somebody. –Amber Benson

I'm an idiot. Ask me how.

[justin]

There's one problem with the whole Saddam Huesain and Gary ridgeway as cell mates scenario, which is a little thing called the Geneva Convention



I'm prety sure that putting a POW in a cell with a serial killer and letting them kill each other contravenese that.

I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had. - mad world

[Gatito Grande]

. . . unless he was committing statutory rape of a black girl.*



This story just makes me *purple* w/ rage. Essie Mae Washington-Williams, Thurmond's illegitimate black daughter, was entitled to her privacy all these years, but I'm still very sorry she didn't reveal her paternity while Thurmond was alive---I guess it just shows how much classier she is than he was.

Quote:

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Strom Thurmond's family confirms paternity claim



By David Mattingly

CNN Washington Bureau

Monday, December 15, 2003 Posted: 4:27 PM EST (2127 GMT)



(CNN) -- An attorney for the family of former U.S. Sen. Strom Thurmond of South Carolina on Monday confirmed that at the age of 22, Thurmond fathered a child with a teenaged African-American housekeeper in 1925.



Thurmond, the longest-serving senator in U.S. history, died in June at age 100. His illegitimate daughter's story was published Sunday by the Washington Post.



Essie Mae Washington-Williams, now 78 and a retired school teacher in Los Angeles, publicly revealed her relationship to the former segregationist after a lifetime of silence.



According to reports, her attorney, Frank Wheaton, said Williams came forward at the urging of her children and had no plans to ask the Thurmond estate for any money.



Monday's statement from the Thurmond family reads: "As J. Strom Thurmond has passed away and cannot speak for himself, the Thurmond family acknowledges Ms. Essie Mae Washington-Williams' claim to her heritage. We hope this acknowledgment will bring closure for Ms. Williams."



The Thurmond family attorney, J. Mark Taylor, declined further comment.



Glenn Walters, a South Carolina attorney also representing Williams, told CNN he was happy that the matter had been resolved in this manner. Walters was reportedly prepared to provide documentation and undergo a DNA test to prove her claim. Her attorney tells CNN no DNA test was done.



According to the Washington Post report, Washington-Williams' mother, Carrie Butler, worked as a maid at the Thurmond family home in Edgefield, South Carolina. At the time the girl was born in 1925, Butler was 16 and Thurmond was 22, unmarried and living in his parents' home.



Butler's sister took the girl to live in Pennsylvania when she was six months old, and she did not meet Thurmond until returning to South Carolina in 1941, when she was 16, the Post reported.



Her mother, who was ill and died a short time later, had insisted on introducing her to Thurmond, who acknowledged her as his daughter, the newspaper reported.

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www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/15...index.html



Can you imagine growing up, hearing all his racist bile, knowing he was your father? F*cking *sshole!



GG I don't believe in hell, but I'm oh-so-tempted to make an exception for Ol' Strom Out





*They're not saying anything other than "statutory." But how much free consent did this 16 year-old black housekeeper have vis-a-vis her white employer's adult son?

[maudmac]

I can't really be for capital punishment. I do understand the sense that justice isn't done if, say, a murderer does not pay for his/her crime with his/her life and I might feel that way myself if someone I love were murdered. Nonetheless, my heart and my head both say that the government has no business being in the killing business. It's a terrible irony to punish murderers by murdering them. (Yes, I have had the "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" bumper sticker.)



Also, well, there's a fine line between justice and revenge and that whole "eye for an eye" thing, in my opinion, ultimately does more harm than good - for the simple reason that it never ends. As they say, it would just blind the whole world, if carried to its logical conclusion. If the punishment for a murderer is to be executed, what's the punishment for the executioner then? Is the executioner (and the judge who sentences the perpetrator to die) not a murderer as well?



And to feel that some human life (even that of a murderer) is of lesser value than other human life...I'm really uncomfortable with that notion. It's got a long history, of which we are all aware, and it's a terrible precedent, I think.



That said, I would be lying if I did not admit that there are just some people out there in the world who...for lack of a better way to say it, just Need To Die. The Hitlers and Pol Pots of the world...they need to not have been in the world. But why is that? Because they saw some human life as less valuable than other human life. So...



Where is the line between the two? I don't know. Let me know if you find it, because I seriously have no idea.



About that inhuman fuckhead Strom. It is for people like him that I wish there were a hell. I can't imagine what it must have been like inside his daughter's mind, all those years, hearing the shit that was flying out of his mouth on a regular basis and knowing the truth. His hypocrisy was outrageous and truly staggering.

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i got a dance ain't got no steps  /  i'm gonna let the music move me around

[MellindraX]

Quote:

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His hypocrisy was outrageous and truly staggering.

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I can't see the hypocrisy. Just because you'd screw someone doesn't mean you think anything of them. If anything, the way in which he did it screams power trip to me...

I’ve never purposely gone out to take somebody out. Well, maybe, in elementary school I once did try to trip somebody. –Amber Benson

I'm an idiot. Ask me how.

[Gatito Grande]

MellindraX,



The hypocrisy comes from his (loudly) professed belief in segregation, except where his d*ck was concerned, apparently.



GG And whaddaya bet that this was not a onetime incident of "integration"? Out

[maudmac]

He was a flaming hypocrite. Consider this:



"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches."

— Strom Thurmond (R), 1948

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i got a dance ain't got no steps  /  i'm gonna let the music move me around

[4WiccanLuv]

Strom Thurmond changed his position on race, as did many politicians who survived those changes between the 40’s and 70’s. Was Strom Thurmond a racist? He was earlier in his life, but he slowly changed his views in the face of political realities. Politicians commonly change their views on issues throughout their careers. The real question is whether he changed his views out of self interest or out of a sincere change of heart.

"We got him!"

[maudmac]

You're right. He did change his tune. And good for him. As with George Wallace, we can never know if it was merely a backpedal in attempts to gain favor/votes or a sincere reversal. But my mind isn't really with the Essie Mae Washington-Williams who lived to see him take a more moderate stance, it's with the 23-year-old who silently endured her own father running for President in '48 and making segregation more or less his - and the Dixiecrats' - raison d'être.

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i got a dance ain't got no steps  /  i'm gonna let the music move me around

[DaddyCatALSO]

fluffylamb: RE. the death penalty you're the closest person I've ever in my life heard dealing with the death peanlty in essentially the same terms as I view it; it doesn't really work and so the "rebound effect" which a policy like the death peanlty has on society isn't worth it either. Morally I don't have a big problem with it.

As to John Geoghan, one thing troubles me. I'm actually a greta believer in the idea of setting up things so some third aprty will do what can't be done officially. At times it's the only way to get soemthing worthwhile accomplished. But the conditoins under which he was imprisoned smell like a very shoddy set-up. Plus I don't see that much was accomplished by it.



Gatito Grande, maudmac: Actually, when I read the article about Thurmond's daughter yesterday I just took it in stride since I know a lot of Southern white men sired children that way. And many of those fathers made the same noises Thurmond did; was her suffering any greater because he did it in a national arena? I can see why it could be, or I can also see that it might not make much difference. At least ol' Strom helped out her and her mother financially; lots of those men were mere sperm donors. And he was only 22. Does it justify anything? Not for a second, but it is an aspect to consider.

[justin]

I wasn't sure whetehr this should go in the current events or the politics thread. Hopefully this is the right place.



I've just been readin a written report submitted to UN concerning the usage of Depleted Uranium weapons. You can find it here



It lists four tests for the legality of weapons

1 Geographical - a weapons effects must be contained to within the battle field

2: Temporal - a weapons effects should end when the battle has ended

3: Humanity - weapons should not cause undue suffering

4: Enviromental - The enviromental impact should be minimal



Obviously DU weapons break most of those tests.



Studies of American soldiers involved in Golf War I showed that sixty percent of them had children with disabilities, deformities or other serious medical problems.



Studies by Canadian researchers have shown that the average level of radioactive isotopes found in the urine of Afghani people is about 315 nanograms. This is rather high when you consider the maximum level for people in America is just 12 nanograms.



During Gulf War II not only did we use DU weapons but also cluster bombs which resulted in large numbers of civilian casualties.



Then you get to the really worrying plans that America has to develop weapons that can be launched from America and that can target any country on the planet.



ISTM that if we (by which I mainly mean America and Britain) are going to set ourselves up as the worlds police force and spread death and destruction all in the name of truth, justice and the American way then we ought to behave better than those people that we're fighting against and to not flout international conventions. At the moment this isn't the case.

I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had. - mad world

[amberbensontotallyrules4e]

Erm, we seem to have moved on a little, but I kinda wanna comment on the death penalty thing, so I hope you dont mind if I go back to that.

The Death Penalty poses a problem for me, in that I believe that if someone cannot show respect for human life, do they truly deserve to live? Murderers show no respect for their victims' right to life, so do they deserve to have their right to live respected by the rest of the world? Then we have the question over whether or not it is right for the human race to "play God"? Because someone has made it their place to pass judgement on someone's right to live their life, does it mean that we should then decide whether they have the right to live? I think they're valid questions. Of course, there's also the two things where an innocent person is put to death for crimes they didn't commit, and/or the death penalty isn;t a deterrent to those who are pre-disposed to commit crimes of a magnitude at which some places decide that death should be the punishment.

We've just finished dealing with the trials of Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr in the UK. If you don't know what this is about, Huntley was accused of murdering two children, Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells. Carr was accused of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, and two counts of assisting an offender. On the back of overwhelming evidence, Huntley was found guilty just this week of the 2 murders, which took place in August 2002. Carr was cleared of both counts of assisting an offender, but found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

Huntley had admitted to having killed the girls in the course of his trial, but said that he "didn't mean to." How you can accidently kill two perfectly healthy 10 year old girls is beyond me, and clearly also beyond the jury.

My point is, in cases where there is no doubt that someone is guilty, and they show no remorse for their crime, is the death penalty right? Huntley's mother certainly thinks so, as she was interviewed by a newspaper, and said something along the lines of although she loves her son and always will, when someone commits a crime like this, they deserve to hang. She also said that she knew he was guilty when she saw the pictures of him the night that he was arrested.

Do some crimes, and some people, deserve the death penalty? The answer may well be yes, but we need to enforce it on a much more careful way. We need to be sure that a person is guilty of what they have been accused. We need to ensure that in one case someone gets the death penalty, and in another which is the same case, someone "gets off" with life-imprisonment, because they have made a deal with the police that if they confess or whatever, they won't be given the death penalty. And we also need to consider whether for some people, the death penalty is really a harsher verdict than life-imprisoment. Ian Brady certainly believes that death is better than imprisonment, and if anyone deserves the death penalty, it's him.

I'll try to add a few links to articles about the Soham murders if anyone wants to read the information and make their own decision about what sort of a punishment is deserved, and also about Ian Brady.

This is all just my rambling opinion, so feel free to ignore it.



Links - Huntley Guilty of Soham Murders

Brady wins right to public tribunal

*****************************************************************

"Baby have you got to go away? Don't think I can take the pain. Won't you stay another day...?"~ East 17, sad but true

Edited by: amberbensontotallyrules4eva at: 12/20/03 7:39 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

Wanted to link to this column by E. J. Dionne about Bush's attacks on Democrats, and the way he's spun things like their stand on the homeland security bill into a partisan battleground for the elections.



I saw polling data the other day that said Democrats hate Bush more than any Republican ever hated Bill Clinton, so don't ask me why we--they--can't get an impeachment together.



Finally, for the end of this year, I wanted to say that in a weird way, my experiences here on the Kitten board have given me a better perspective not just on W/T and all but on politics, etc in general. What I mean to say is that it's increased my skepticism filters a fewfold, having to deal with everything we had/have thrown at us, and that's very useful. Especially when it comes to dealing with bullshit, whether from Bush or Joss.



Happy new year, Kittens. I know we'll all be there in spirit on Ally's opening night, and I envy those of you who may be there in the flesh.

Ben



"Never be discouraged from being an activist because people tell you that you'll not succeed. You have already succeeded if you're out there representing truth or justice or compassion or fairness or love."

-- Doris 'Granny D' Haddock

[justin]

Quote:

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I saw polling data the other day that said Democrats hate Bush more than any Republican ever hated Bill Clinton, so don't ask me why we--they--can't get an impeachment together.

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Not only that but according to Michael Moore in "Dude, Where's My Country?" the democrats have pretty much given up all hope of winning the 2004 elections. Which means we (by which I mean the whole planet) are stuck with Bush for another 4 years.

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[Kieli]

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Not only that but according to Michael Moore in "Dude, Where's My Country?" the democrats have pretty much given up all hope of winning the 2004 elections. Which means we (by which I mean the whole planet) are stuck with Bush for another 4 years.

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How bloody pathetic is that? *sigh* I think I just might have to own up to my vow of moving to Europe or Canada if Bush is elected again.



I know why the common Dem is disappointed, though. I mean look at the shite we're stuck with? Badmouthing, schoolyard bully Dean, the shining star (supposedly) Gen. Clark, Rev. Al Sharpton (WTF????) and a laundry list of losers and miscreants. Good LORD, I wish to fucking hell that Hillary would run. I'd sell my damn soul to be on her campaign because, honestly, I really do think she is the ONLY Dem that has a bloody snowball's chance in Dante's deepest level of Hell (and don't kid yourselves folks, with Bush in office, we are SO getting there..)



I apologise in advance. Maybe this is the wrong thread of my bile black view. I just saw Justin's post and snapped. Sorry Justin! This was not directed at you in any way, shape or form. You've just given voice to what I've observed all along.



Kieli

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[urnofosiris]

I would not lose hope yet. Sentiments vary from day to day, by the time elections roll around things like the capture of Saddam will be old news and many other hurdles will have taken some of the shine of that particular victory. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy they captured him, but it does not add up to reason to re-elect GWB, though no doubt he will be pimping it for all it's worth and take credit for it, whilst neglecting to mention who the president was that let that guy stay where he was not so long ago and allowing him to massacre the Iraqis that tried to overthrow him.

[Kieli]

Oh you bet Dubya is going to pimp his "successes" for all its worth. The flip side of the coin about people forgetting is that they also forget all of the nearly irreparable damage his actions have done to the worldview of the US. Even are friends are kind of shying away (well, except for the irascible Tony Blair, who may end up with the shaft for his efforts). I really wish some of my fellow Americans would open their eyes and really start thinking. Things are not going well for the US, at home and abroad. There's no glossing over or hiding those facts and what's causing the problems has got to stop. Dubya needs to go back to his ranch and stay there. He simply can't be let out into the world on his own.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Kieli]

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Obviously, I don’t share your gloom and doom about where this country is heading, but I wouldn’t worry about people forgetting anything. Mr. Dean will remind everyone any chance he gets. The dude blames everything on Bush, it’s actually becoming quite comical.

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Well yes, Dean does have that air of revenge about him....and he's pretty much admitted he's giving back the licks that people gave him in the past. That makes him petty and I would hate like hell to think we'd elect a petty, mean-spirited little tyrant like him. I don't mind if you disagree with me. I'm just being realistic and not giving my fellow Americans much credit (plus I lived in Bush country for a few years...I got to see inside of the conservative Texan mind in it t'weren't pretty, Dooley )...I once thought that surely we wouldn't have Bush as president to start with. Not only was I hideously wrong, but even more wrong about how said fellow citizens would feel about this war in Iraq. So you'll have to pardon me if I am apt to see the glass as mostly empty.

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Anyhoot, back to my point, I think Hillary is secretly praying for a Dean nomination, Bush would beat him, making it next to impossible for him to have any staying power for the next election. Bush would serve the next four years with no possibility of getting re-elected and tada…no one would be strong enough to challenge her for the Democratic nomination in 2008!

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Now this makes sense. However, just imagining another four hideous years under Dubya fills soul with black despair and my veins with ice water. I keep wondering to myself, how did the Democratic Party become so weak-sister? What the hell happened and how is it that Hillary is the only strong possible candidate for Presidency? Granted, this country really does need to have a woman at the helm for once but as a party, I truly am disappointed at the dearth of possibilities. That's called "not viewing the world through rose coloured glasses"....our reality has become far more scary than I could have imagined.



ETA: I agree with Garfield. This disturbing trend towards wanting to radically alter the Constitution has got me edgy. If the Conservative Christian Right has their way, it'll become their way or the highway. Christianity will be named as the only "true" American religion. So much for the Land of the Free....no one would be free to do much of anything. So much for Separation of Church and State.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 12/31/03 12:15 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

Hilary would have a very good chance--according to another poll I saw recently, she is the most admired woman in America--although, according to the same poll, GWB is the most admired man. The problem for Hilary if she runs next year is getting around the many times she said she wouldn't.



I've been saying for a long time, in terms of GWB's job performance, this election is the Democrats to lose. Unfortunately, if there's anyone who can lose the next election, it's the Democrats. If they lose, it's not going to be because the country suddenly rallied behind GWB and truly believes he is the kind of leader they build statues of. It's going to be because the Democratic field failed to yield a candidate who was truly successful at giving the people what they want and need in a candidate. Is Dean that man? I hope to god, but I'm not getting that vibe yet. Every now and then when I see him on TV I swear I can see the ghost of Michael Dukakis over his shoulders.

Ben



"Never be discouraged from being an activist because people tell you that you'll not succeed. You have already succeeded if you're out there representing truth or justice or compassion or fairness or love."

-- Doris 'Granny D' Haddock

[4WiccanLuv]

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I wish to fucking hell that Hillary would run. I'd sell my damn soul to be on her campaign

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Hillary won’t run for a few reasons. Personally, I think she’d have a great shot at defeating Bush or at the very least, make it interesting. A victory for her would not be guaranteed and a loss could damage her future possibilities. I really don’t think she’s willing to risk that, she’s much too smart. She’s just hanging back bidding her time watching Dean, Clark, Gephart, Kerry, Lieberman & Co. tear each other apart. IMO, I don’t think any of these guys have a snowball’s chance in HELL against Bush. But if any of these guys actually did manage to win, maybe I’d be in your place, afraid for my country, considering a move to Siberia, or anywhere but here! Nah!



Anyhoot, back to my point, I think Hillary is secretly praying for a Dean nomination, Bush would beat him, making it next to impossible for him to have any staying power for the next election. Bush would serve the next four years with no possibility of getting re-elected and tada…no one would be strong enough to challenge her for the Democratic nomination in 2008!



Now this is where it would get interesting. I think Al Gore might come out of retirement if that should happen. There is no love lost between him and the Clintons! It should be and will be interesting! Politics are better than soap operas sometimes!

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The flip side of the coin about people forgetting is that they also forget all of the nearly irreparable damage his actions have done to the worldview of the US.

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Obviously, I don’t share your gloom and doom about where this country is heading, but I wouldn’t worry about people forgetting anything. Mr. Dean will remind everyone any chance he gets. The dude blames everything on Bush, it’s actually becoming quite comical. Just the other day, he blamed Mad Cow on him. What next? Oh yeah, Bush broke up the Beatles?



I agree with Dr. G, anything can happen. It all looks very promising for Bush, but after what happened with Bush Sr. losing to Clinton after enjoying high poll ratings and a Desert Storm victory, I hope nothing is taken for granted. I know it’s not a popular opinion here, but here’s hoping for a Bush victory in 2004!

"We got him!"