The Current Events/Issues Thread - Read the First Post

[urnofosiris]

Well he will be hoping it with you. I'm sure he could use the time to help change the US constitution to rob the US LGBT community of the mere possibility for equal rights once and for all.

[justin]

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I keep wondering to myself, how did the Democratic Party become so weak-sister? What the hell happened and how is it that Hillary is the only strong possible candidate for Presidency? Granted, this country really does need to have a woman at the helm for once but as a party, I truly am disappointed at the dearth of possibilities.

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It makes it hard to think of a country as a democracy when it only has two parties and one of them has given up.



At least in this country the Torries have been able to come up with a semi credible challenger to Blair. Though that's not an entirely good thing. As much as I want Blair to lose the next elections, I really don't want Michael Howard to win.



Maybe we should make like in the movie Brewster's million and tell people to vote for "None of the above."

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[justin]

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love whomever I want,

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But not marry whoever you want

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I admire him for the steps he’s taken to protect me and my country.

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By disparaging his allies, ignoring international conventions and further destabalising an already troubled area. Personaly I don't see Bush as having down much to make the world, or even America, a safer place.

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Cheers and a Happy New Year to all!

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Likewise

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

Edited by: justin at: 12/31/03 4:39 pm

[4WiccanLuv]

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I keep wondering to myself, how did the Democratic Party become so weak-sister?

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I feel as though the Democratic Party has been hi-jacked by extreme radical left-wing nutjobs. Regular middle of the road Joe Schmoes, such as myself, have a tough time relating to them. If Howard Dean, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore, Al Franken and the rest of the zany cast of the Hollywood Lefties are the new representatives for the party, I can understand why so many Democrats, myself included, have turned away in droves. These guys are truly scary and off-putting with their doomsday and hate! I don’t want screaming banshees to represent me and I refuse to change my party status…I want decent, forthright, intelligent, thoughtful, tough and open-minded Democrats to step up and take our party back! Sadly, I don’t see any on the horizon in the near future, so until then, my support is for Bush!

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Well he will be hoping it with you. I'm sure he could use the time to help change the US constitution to rob the US LGBT community of the mere possibility for equal rights once and for all.

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Bush has been in office for three years and in that time, none of my rights have been robbed. I can go where I want, love whomever I want, attend any church or praise any God I want, I am free. I don’t perceive him to be an evil man out to get me because of my gayness, on the contrary. I admire him for the steps he’s taken to protect me and my country.



Cheers and a Happy New Year to all!

"We got him!"

[Kieli]

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I feel as though the Democratic Party has been hi-jacked by extreme radical left-wing nutjobs. Regular middle of the road Joe Schmoes, such as myself, have a tough time relating to them. If Howard Dean, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore, Al Franken and the rest of the zany cast of the Hollywood Lefties are the new representatives for the party, I can understand why so many Democrats, myself included, have turned away in droves. These guys are truly scary and off-putting with their doomsday and hate! I don’t want screaming banshees to represent me and I refuse to change my party status…I want decent, forthright, intelligent, thoughtful, tough and open-minded Democrats to step up and take our party back!

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I agree with that. I don't want radicals speaking for me either. I'd like to think that I am much more moderate than anything else. However, if you're going to support a Republican, at least take them to task for their own nutjobs such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, to name a few. Michael Moore and Al Franken have never been about hate; their satirical commentary on conservatives and their views of some of us liberals has been....interesting. I despise the road the Democrats have taken but I won't vote for what would seem to be the lesser of two evils. Bush is so not that. Things have only picked up within the last couple of months and I would not be at all surprised if there was a fair amount of political machinations at work for that to happen. I'm jaded, but not all that unrealistic. It can happen and I'm sure it happens far more than any American would admit. Because in doing so, they would have to admit that we, the people, have lost control of the government that was supposed to be by the people and for the people. We keep thinking "Well I'm still free, ain't I?" Really? Well only if you don't even remotely catch the eye of the dubious Homeland Security office. I smell a comparison here that I will not mention because I really think very few would actually take what I would say and examine it logically; not see it as a personal affront to the President.

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Bush has been in office for three years and in that time, none of my rights have been robbed. I can go where I want, love whomever I want, attend any church or praise any God I want, I am free. I don’t perceive him to be an evil man out to get me because of my gayness, on the contrary. I admire him for the steps he’s taken to protect me and my country.

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Really? Hmm...let's see....he's managed to pretty much break every promise he's made to the Log Cabin Republicans, he's gotten rid of the people he promised to post that speak for gay rights, oh yes, he publicly opposes marriage for gays and is helping to push for an amendment to make it unlawful for gays to marry. We've always had the right to love whomever we want...that's nothing new and he didn't give nor help that right. We all were born with that right. However, publicly and freely exercising said right has never been easy and the price many have paid to get us this far has not been cheap. I wouldn't pat old Dubya on the back just yet. He's too busy pandering to whatever faction will help him get elected for him to make up his own mind. And you were free before Dubya took office, or even before he was born. I wouldn't credit him for that either.



Interesting too that if one really can praise whatever god one chooses, why is it that Muslims are still being targeted in this country? We'd all like to THINK that the US as a whole is openminded, but the simple truth is, that is not so. The Patriot Act is peeling away our civil liberties like an onion; and this is a good thing, how? And how is Bush doing right by gays again? Because somewhere, I missed that memo.

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Cheers and a Happy New Year to all!

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Ayuh....best wishes for a happy and, above all, SAFE holiday and coming year.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 12/31/03 6:11 pm

[emma peel]

Thank you justin and Kieli for those 2 previous posts. I appreciate and agree with your sentiments.

Have a safe New Year, ya'll.

Janice

[Kieli]

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Well, my first impulse whenever I read Homeland Security is to shout Sieg Heil! Am I close?

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LOL See I knew you were paying far too close attention for words.



I think that somewhere in your resume, you forgot about having his US Attorney General pompously declare that having the Presidency actually be held accountable for said corporate chicanery and thievery would weaken Presidential authority and undermine the honor of the office. In essence, Ashcroft was saying that the presidency should be above the law and not subject to investigation. Well someone sure as hell should've told federal prosecutors when they tried to dismantle Bill Clinton for diddling his intern and then lying about it. I almost exploded when I heard that little speech.



In hindsight, that little fiasco was chump change compared to Bush and his cronies' corporate misconduct. What's even more sad is that a good many Americans agreed with Ashcroft! I was appalled because that would set a totally unhealthy precedent. Once our elected officials start bucking the law they are sworn to uphold and start blatantly and publicly undermining the system, we as citizens are, if you'll pardon my french, cluster fucked. Under the law, EVERYONE is to be held accountable for their actions and misdeeds if they break the law...no one is exempt, not even if they happen to run a country. Everyone was so busy worrying about what Clinton did in his bedroom and trying to condemn him for it, they missed that the man is human. I don't give a damn if a president humps chickens, so long as he/she runs this country well, with dignity and I don't cringe in abject horror every time he/she opens their mouth.

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The worst thing is that Bush doesn't have to pimp SH's capture because the democrats are doing it for him.

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Yes it's pathetic, isn't it? Think Tony would have me as a citizen, Jus? I just catch the next British Airways for London if things get any worse here.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 1/1/04 10:35 am

[Diebrock]

4WiccanLuv wrote

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Bush has been in office for three years and in that time, none of my rights have been robbed.

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What about the right robbed when he signed the following bill?







Now you're probably wondering what it was that had all these MEN so pleased and laughing.

That was the bill to outlaw the abortion procedure called "Dilation and Extraction" (better known as "Partial-Birth Abortion").

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Kieli wrote

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LOL See I knew you were paying far too close attention for words.

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I'm German. We are big with the "Never Again" no matter how small the step in that direction while also not being able in any way to find comfort or dismiss signs because "It can't happen here". Some signs are hard to ignore nowadays, unfortunately.



Oh, and it is not my resume. I got it in an email without link or I would have attributed it to whoever wrote it.

_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 1/1/04 10:51 am

[Diebrock]

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We keep thinking "Well I'm still free, ain't I?" Really? Well only if you don't even remotely catch the eye of the dubious Homeland Security office. I smell a comparison here that I will not mention because I really think very few would actually take what I would say and examine it logically; not see it as a personal affront to the President.

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Well, my first impulse whenever I read Homeland Security is to shout Sieg Heil! Am I close?



As for Bush, I go with what the great Sir Peter Ustinov said: "If the American people are really happy with George Bush, Clinton was a man of unnecessary brilliance."



The resume of a Leader:

(Please note that it is a little dated since it doesn't address the victory of paying the Kurds off with whatever so they showed where they had stashed the previously caught, drugged Saddam. And it only took ten thousand dead innocent Iraqis, who knows how many thousands of dead Iraqi soldiers, more than half a million dead Iraqi children due to the sanctions, hundreds of dead American soldiers, billions of dollars, looting of hospitals and museums... )





George W. Bush

The White House, USA



EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:



LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.



MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.



COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a cheerleader.



PAST WORK EXPERIENCE: I ran for US Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.



ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR: I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money. I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history. With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.



ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT: I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week. I spent the US surplus and effectively bankrupted the US Treasury. I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in US

history. I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period. I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the US stock market.



I am the first President in US history to enter office with a criminal record. I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in US history. I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD. In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.



I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a US President. In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month. I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in US history.I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any President since the advent of television. I presided over the biggest energy crisis in US history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed. I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history.



I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time.



I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. I've broken more international treaties than any President in US history. I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.



I am the first President in US history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of US citizens, and the world community. I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government. I am the first President in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission. I withdrew the US from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspectors access to US "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention. I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US election).



I am the all-time US and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations. My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in US history. My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the US Supreme Court during my election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.



I garnered the most sympathy for the US after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the US the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history. I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.



I changed the US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.



RECORDS AND REFERENCES: All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my

father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view. All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-president, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. Please consider my experience when voting in 2004.

_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[justin]

Kieli wrote

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Oh you bet Dubya is going to pimp his "successes" for all its worth

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The worst thing is that Bush doesn't have to pimp SH's capture becuase the democrats are doing it for him. According the bbc News site some of the Democrat candidates are using the capture to attack Howard Deans position.

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[Kieli]

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True, but it isn’t wasn’t a right I had before Bush either. Besides, I have am extremely low opinion of marriage. It’s just a word. A committed and loving relationship is what’s important to me. I don’t need nor want my relationship approved, blessed or recognized by anyone other than my partner. But if “marriage” is something some gays and lesbians want, then more power to you.

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No disrespect intended, I think you're missing the point here. As I am not religious, it's not about my wanting any blessing...it's about me wanting the right to make medical decisions for my partner without being countermanded in court by well-meaning, if not misguided, relations. It's about me wanting to be able to share the same healthcare benefits as my partner legally. It's about having the same legal rights as any other heterosexual couple. Why is it that people can't see that it has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with equal treatment?

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Heh…must be with the memo I missed about being a proper lesbian!

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This discussion also has nothing to do with anyone being a "good" or "bad" lesbian and I don't recall me or anyone else saying so. I leave that sort of misguided labeling up to someone else.

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Actually, I think this war has made pretty clear who our allies truly are.

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These people are our allies out of fear and nothing more. They've got that whole "There but for the grace of God go I" panicked look after Iraq and who in their right mind really wants to be on the bad side of a lunatic with power who feels that his mission to "bring down the bad guy no matter what the cost" is his righteous Christian duty. Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11. That has NEVER been proven and probably never will be. And, while we're on this, why is Bush so afraid to be subject to examination by the World Court in Hague when he's called for any number of so-called tyrants to be subjected to World Court trials? Don't you see how that could be viewed sanctimony and hubris on our part?



So you think the US citizens being detained under the spurious charges in places like Git'mo and even here in the US aren't being targeted for some fictional connection or other?

That's rather unrealistic....especially since that citizen, even if suspected of treason, still has the rights afforded any criminal. There have been reports of American Muslims having their homes raided and being detained for months with no word on why they were being detained (and still are) or what the charges are. Reality is ever a nasty little shock.



And Bush has indeed lent his support to amending the Constitution. And I quote:

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On Tuesday, Bush said for the first time that he would, "if necessary," support a constitutional amendment that defined marriage as between a man and a woman.



www.usatoday.com/news/was...iage_x.htm



www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLIT....marriage/

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But notice that he's still dancing about the issue. No spine, that guy, when it comes to the real issues.

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We haven't had a major act of terrorism committed here since it was enacted, so I call that a good thing! I don’t care if the government wiretaps my phone, internet or checks my mail or fricken library card. If it prevents another catastrophe like 9/11, then so be it. If it makes it easier to capture and punish those who wish to harm me or my loved ones, then I’m for it. I have nothing to hide. In addition, Congress passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357–66 in the House, so I’m trusting our leaders to know what is necessary to protect us.

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Actually there is no concrete evidence that supports this assumption. One cannot assume that by throwing away our civil rights in order to ensure that very tenuous homeland security, we'll be any more free...as a matter of fact, it may even get worse. And since 9-11, there have been many cases of citizens putting that "security" theory to the test by sneaking on planes with scissors and boxcutters and the like (that whole ban if freaking ridiculous anyway...if someone really wanted to kill you on an airliner or anywhere else, all they'd need is a damn Palm Pilot and a freaking cell phone or a test tube filled with a nasty thing that could be bought in a magazine) We may have our own government perpetrating acts of terrorism on citizens and getting away with it under the Patriot Act. I don't think I'm willing to just hand over my brains and my comfort to the government and hope for the best. That's how WWII got started. No one started asking questions and by the time things got really ugly it was too late...the damage had been done beyond all repair. While I have nothing to hide either, I would like more than just lip service from some career politician to assure me that my rights and my privacy are being protected.

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Sorry folks, I just don’t view Bush as the boogeyman y’all do. And if this crop of Democratic hopefuls are all we’ve got going for us, then I’m sticking with Bush in the next election!

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More power to ya. At least you have some idea of what you want, however much we disagree.



ETA: I thought of something on the way home from work....if each state were permitted to handle something as sensitive as gay rights and gay marriage, civil unions, etc. on their own, Texas and most of the Southern states would probably never have given up the sodomy laws on their own...so you might still be living in a state where they could still put you in jail for having homosexual sex. By the same token, we wouldn't have had amazingly forward thinking states such as VT and CA enact civil union laws. It does suck though to get married in one state, go back to the state you're living in and STILL not have your union recognized legally (and thus not all of the rights of a married person). Just a thought. I think most states like KS (which would probably forbid the teaching of evolution until hell froze over) wouldn't change some of their ridiculous laws just because change scares them.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 1/1/04 2:36 pm

[4WiccanLuv]

Justin,

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But not marry whoever you want

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True, but it isn’t wasn’t a right I had before Bush either. Besides, I have am extremely low opinion of marriage. It’s just a word. A committed and loving relationship is what’s important to me. I don’t need nor want my relationship approved, blessed or recognized by anyone other than my partner. But if “marriage” is something some gays and lesbians want, then more power to you.

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By disparaging his allies, ignoring international conventions and further destabalising an already troubled area.

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Actually, I think this war has made pretty clear who our allies truly are. And true, the Middle East is a very troubled area, but since the war, we have had the support of many Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan. And suddenly Libya has agreed to end their WMD pursuit, and there’s even a possibility for Iran to follow-through on its commitments to allow inspections of its nuclear program. Syria and Israel are close to reestablishing dialogue. If only Israel and Palestine would make with the peace. So no, I don’t feel US involvement has destabilized the already troubled area any further.



Kieli,

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However, if you're going to support a Republican, at least take them to task for their own nutjobs such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, to name a few.

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I have in previous posts on the old political thread. Those guys are just as bad coming from the other extreme. Old Rush is the biggest hypocrite of them all and he’s finally getting his. These guys have so much power and influence because they reach millions and rather than coming up with ideas, solutions or ways to bring people closer together, they widen the gap with their partisan crap, it’s sad really.

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he publicly opposes marriage for gays and is helping to push for an amendment to make it unlawful for gays to marry.

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In a recent interview with Diane Sawyer, President Bush said, "the position of this administration is that whatever legal arrangements people want to make, they're allowed to make, so long as it's embraced by the state or at the state level." I agree, these issues should be dealt with at a state level. As far as I know, Bush hasn’t committed to amending the constitution. This is a divisive social issue that would split the country and be a bad move on his part. Hmm…maybe this makes me a bad lesbian, but the right to marry is not an issue for me personally as I stated above. I’d rather have my government focus on homeland security, crime, the economy, healthcare and education rather than run around preventing people from getting married!

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And you were free before Dubya took office, or even before he was born. I wouldn't credit him for that either.

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I guess I made my point rather badly. What I meant is that my freedoms have not been “robbed” with him in the White House. They aren’t any better, but there sure as hell aren’t any worse. I don’t feel targeted or threatened by him.

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Interesting too that if one really can praise whatever god one chooses, why is it that Muslims are still being targeted in this country?

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I think what happened to the Muslim community after 9/11 was terrible. IMO, it was a knee jerk reaction by a few idiots. And correct me if I’m wrong, but has this government closed down any temples or mosques? Have Muslims been rounded up and sent to camps? Most intelligent Americans know that they are not the enemy.

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The Patriot Act is peeling away our civil liberties like an onion; and this is a good thing, how?

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We haven't had a major act of terrorism committed here since it was enacted, so I call that a good thing! I don’t care if the government wiretaps my phone, internet or checks my mail or fricken library card. If it prevents another catastrophe like 9/11, then so be it. If it makes it easier to capture and punish those who wish to harm me or my loved ones, then I’m for it. I have nothing to hide. In addition, Congress passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357–66 in the House, so I’m trusting our leaders to know what is necessary to protect us.

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And how is Bush doing right by gays again? Because somewhere, I missed that memo.

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Heh…must be with the memo I missed about being a proper lesbian!



Diebrock,

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That was the bill to outlaw the abortion procedure called "Dilation and Extraction" (better known as "Partial-Birth Abortion" .

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I’ve stated before, I so don’t have a problem with the signing of this bill. I am pro choice, but I draw the line at that procedure, unless it’s a life or death situation.



Sorry folks, I just don’t view Bush as the boogeyman y’all do. And if this crop of Democratic hopefuls are all we’ve got going for us, then I’m sticking with Bush in the next election!

"We got him!"

[justin]

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We haven't had a major act of terrorism committed here since it was enacted, so I call that a good thing! I don’t care if the government wiretaps my phone, internet or checks my mail or fricken library card. If it prevents another catastrophe like 9/11, then so be it. If it makes it easier to capture and punish those who wish to harm me or my loved ones, then I’m for it. I have nothing to hide. In addition, Congress passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357–66 in the House, so I’m trusting our leaders to know what is necessary to protect us.

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Aside from 9/11 you hadn't had any major acts of terrorism without these laws having been enacted. So how do you know that these laws have had any possitive impact?



I most certainly do care about whether the government wiretaps my phones, internet or checks my mail or inded anything else without a court order. I'm not a criminal and I object to being treated like one.



Unlike you I don't trust my government, and I certainly don't trust the current US government.

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[darkmagicwillow]

Here's an article you might find interesting about Bush's administration:

All images of gay gatherings at national sites, including the Millennium March on the Washington Mall have been ordered removed from videotapes that have been shown at the Lincoln Memorial since 1995 according to a civil service group.



Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) says that the directive came from National Parks Service Deputy Director Donald Murphy. Murphy is said to have been concerned about pictures in the video that showed same-sex couples kissing and holding hands after conservative groups complained.



The Millennium March held in 2000 to bring attention to LGBT civil rights issues drew tens of thousands of gays and their supporters to the mall for one of the biggest demonstrations since the civil rights and anti-war marches of the 1960s.



Also ordered cut from the tape were scenes of abortion rights demonstrations at the memorial, and anti-Vietnam War demonstrations "because it implies that Lincoln would have supported homosexual and abortion rights as well as feminism."



In their place, the Park Service is inserting scenes of the Christian group Promise Keepers and pro-Gulf War demonstrators though these events did not take place at the Memorial in what Murphy calls a "more balanced" version.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Kieli]

Oh..my...hells. Balanced, eh? More like propagandist. It seems our government is ashamed of us queers and feminists. I would say that I am shocked but, ya'll know damn well I'm not



Thanks for the article, DMW. It got my blood racing and made me deeply sad simultaneously.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[darkmagicwillow]

4WiccanLuv wrote:

Bush has been in office for three years and in that time, none of my rights have been robbed.

Then you're not an American citizen, that is, someone who formerly had broad rights protected by the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments? Because the Patriot Act and its even worse successor Patriot 2, many of whose provisions were slipped into an unrelated bill that Bush signed recently, eliminate or reduce many of the protections given by those four amendments from the Bill of Rights. Read this report from the Center for Constitutional Rights or read Repeal the Patriot Act or dozens of other analyses of this attack on the US Constitution for details.

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Populnaeus]

That's funny, because I have had several of my rights violated in the past three years.

I've had an illegal phone tap on my phone, that is ongoing. I've been forced to sign papers that allow me to be tested for drug use in order to keep my job, even though, wow, don't do drugs.

I've been forced to keep my mouth shut whenever somebody at work talks about how bad it is for me having to work with "blacks and gays". (aka 'those people')

I've been forced to keep my mouth shut as I am asked, on a daily basis why I don't always wear makeup, and don't have a boyfriend.

I've been sexually harassed at work, and work daily in unbelievably unsafe conditions.

I've not been allowed medical leave, even with a dr.'s notice.

I've had my car unlawfully searched twice. (And this is in the past 3 years ONLY). Nothing like watching cops rip apart your car, and throw all your stuff in a ditch. Why? Because I was driving a shitty car in a rich white neighborhood. What mattered what that I was in a shitty car.

What do I do? I'm a social worker for a state agency. If I don't keep my mouth shut, I lose my job. My patients lose their social worker, because they sure as hell won't replace me. Bush has cut so many social programs and then bragged about how many people have been cut off the welfare roles.

Demonstrators are being arrested as terrorists and not allowed legal representation.

Children are being taken away from their parents because their parents don't love the 'right' person.

Bush and his regiment have this country so scared of terrorists that most people are willing to give up every right that actually makes them an American.

Now more funds are being given to religious organizations that force people to listen to preaching before they can get services. And some god/ess help them if they are gay or an unpreferable color.

Yeah, Bush has been great for America.

Please let 2004 be better.

[justin]

Quote:

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Then you're not an American citizen, that is, someone who formerly had broad rights protected by the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments?

---

But are those rigths really important. What you don't mention is how strongly Bush and his government have defended your 2nd amendment rights. The attorney general has even gone as far as blocking the FBI from using records of whose been buying guns when investigating suspected terrorists.



So maybe you have lost those other rights, but you'll never lose your god given right to own a gun.



(I think I might be abusing sarcasm with this post, in which case I apologise )



ETA: This is an interesting article about the effect the Gulf War II has had on the united nations. Despite claims to the contrary from British embassadors it's going to be some time before these tensions die down - click me

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

Edited by: justin at: 1/2/04 4:40 am

[Gatito Grande]

Some of us may be laboring under the misconception that the Presidency of the U.S. will be decided this Noverber.



Pat Robertson sets us *ahem* straight:

Quote:

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Pat Robertson: God told him it's Bush in a 'blowout' in November



SONJA BARISIC, Associated Press Writer Friday, January 2, 2004



Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson said Friday he believes God has told him President Bush will be re-elected in a "blowout" in November.



"I think George Bush is going to win in a walk," Robertson said on his "700 Club" program on the Virginia Beach-based Christian Broadcasting Network, which he founded. "I really believe I'm hearing from the Lord it's going to be like a blowout election in 2004. It's shaping up that way."



Robertson told viewers he spent several days in prayer at the end of 2003.



"The Lord has just blessed him," Robertson said of Bush. "I mean, he could make terrible mistakes and comes out of it. It doesn't make any difference what he does, good or bad, [Oh, so that explains it! GG] God picks him up because he's a man of prayer and God's blessing him."



The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, a frequent Robertson critic and executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said he had a prediction of his own: "Pat Robertson in 2004 will continue to use his multimillion broadcasting empire to promote George Bush and other Republican candidates."



In a reference to Bush's political adviser, Lynn said, "Maybe Pat got a message from Karl Rove and thought it was from God."

---

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar...ST0555.DTL



GG Won't vote for any candidate who actively (ala supporting a Constitutional Amendment) denies me the right to marry the person of my choosing---encourage all U.S. Kittens to vote likewise Out

[darkmagicwillow]

Returning to the 2004 Presidential campaign, what do people think of Dennis Kucinich? I like him a lot more than Dean, and of course I'd vote for a shrubbery over Bush. Kucinich was one of the few in congress to vote against the Patriot Act; he prevented Diebold from suppressing the revelations that they knew their voting machines were insecure, lied to voting officials about them, and violating election laws by altering their machines in several state elections including Georgia's in 2002. I don't agree with all of his positions on the issues, particularly lowering the social security age, but I don't agree about everything with any candidate.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[justin]

I just had a quick look at Dennis Kucinich's positions and there is I lot to like there.



He needs to move to Britain. He could take over the Liberal Democrats (and IMHO what this country really needs is a LD prime minister)

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[robotguru]

Quote:

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and IMHO what this country really needs is a LD prime minister

---

I agree with this but unfortunatley that cannot happen as long as the current voting system applies.



If the elections were decided on who has the most votes nationwide then i believe the Lib Dems would be in power, unfortunatley, the Lib Dems support is more scattered than that of Labour and the Conservatives, neither of which i particularly like or trust to be honest. The current system sees the party with the most support in a few areas win so in that respect it is not about the supporters but where the supporters live.

[justin]

Quote:

---

I agree with this but unfortunatley that cannot happen as long as the current voting system applies.

---

Well it's quite often said that if everyone who claimed that they supported the Liberal Democrats actually voted for them then they'd win with a land slide victory, even with our unfair electoral system.

Quote:

---

If the elections were decided on who has the most votes nationwide then i believe the Lib Dems would be in power, unfortunatley, the Lib Dems support is more scattered than that of Labour and the Conservatives, neither of which i particularly like or trust to be honest. The current system sees the party with the most support in a few areas win so in that respect it is not about the supporters but where the supporters live.

---

It's interesting that when Labour were in opposition they supported changing to proportional representation but as soon as they got ahead in the polls they changed their minds about it.



Of course it was this sudden change of face that forced Paddy Ashdown to resign as the Liberal Democrat leader

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams

[Diebrock]

NYTimes

Quote:

---

January 12, 2004

Overnight, a Towering Divide Rises in Jerusalem

By JAMES BENNET



ERUSALEM, Jan. 11 — With a towering concrete slab lowered almost tenderly into a ragged street, Israel began drawing a hard line around Jerusalem on Sunday, walling it off from Abu Dis, an Arab village joined to the city for generations.



The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians can look like the stalest of stalemates, a furious standoff that defies measurement and maybe even change. But in this crowded neighborhood of east Jerusalem, the city's Arab section, there was something monumental, even defining, about the 30-foot slab descending from the twilight, just after a muezzin called the sunset prayer over the crane's roar.



Israel has begun work on other sections of the Jerusalem barrier, which it says is a necessary bulwark against suicide bombers. But it has not built in such a busy area or so close to Jerusalem's center and holy sites.



Bent with age, bundled in a shawl and white head scarf, Nadieh Shihabi, 90, picked her way past the growing barrier, crossing to her house on the Abu Dis side.



"I want to stay in my home," she said, wiping at tears.



Her daughter-in-law, Rada Shihabi, 53, replied, "You cannot." She would have to stay in Jerusalem with her family rather than risk separation, she said.



"Come and see your house for the last time," Rada Shihabi said gently.



Nadieh Shihabi said she had lost another house, in what is now a Jewish section of Jerusalem, in the Arab-Israeli war of 1948.



There were no camera crews and no demonstrators to witness as the mostly Arab construction crew showed up and began its task, under heavy military guard. The Israeli plans were announced some time ago, but no date was set publicly. The Palestinian leadership appeared caught flat-footed as construction began.



The prime minister, Ahmed Qurei, who lives in Abu Dis a couple of blocks from the construction site, was in another West Bank village, Qalqiliya, which is enclosed by the West Bank barrier. There, he attacked the "racist separation wall."



Israel says the new barricade is not a permanent, political border but a reversible security measure.



"I know that people are talking about the fence," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Sunday. "You know who built the fence? Terror built the fence."



Speaking at a news conference in Jerusalem, he continued, "If not for the terror, maybe we wouldn't have done it."



Mr. Sharon was referring to the entire barrier of concrete, ditches, fencing and barbed wire that Israel is building against West Bank Palestinians. Just Sunday, Mr. Sharon said, a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in the West Bank after he spotted an Israeli patrol. No one but the bomber was killed or hurt. Mr. Sharon said the man had been headed for central Israel.



The longer West Bank barrier is to be joined to the one being built around Jerusalem, a roughly 21-mile stretch that will consume some West Bank land along the city's eastern outskirts. Planners have said only some segments will be solid concrete.



They also say they will include gates, but Palestinians say they fear that those gates will seldom be open, or that they will not be able to get the permits they will need to pass.



On the slope of the Mount of Olives, Abu Dis sits partly within Jerusalem's municipal boundaries, and negotiators once saw it as the possible capital of a Palestinian state.



The idea was that Abu Dis could do politically what it had already done socially and commercially: smudge the line between Jerusalem and the West Bank.



But distinctions are getting sharper here, not blurrier. As he often does, Mr. Sharon referred to Jerusalem on Sunday as "the eternal, united, and undivided capital of the Jewish people."



The new wall will actually divide Abu Dis, keeping part of it on the Jerusalem side, separating neighbors and relatives who live just blocks or even a street apart.



Months ago, Israel built another wall against Abu Dis. But it is only six or eight feet high, and every day thousands of Palestinians climb over it or squeeze between its slabs. Taxis idle on either side, as children with backpacks, men wearing suits or carrying tool boxes, and elderly people make their way from Abu Dis, which has counted on Jerusalem for basic services like health care.



Bassam Zagari, 38, said that after the first wall was built, he stopped sending his son Ali from his home in Abu Dis to a special school in Jerusalem. Mr. Zagari was no longer getting enough business at his vegetable stand to afford the fees, he said, and because Ali, now 14, cannot hear or speak, Mr. Zagari was afraid he would not stop if he were called by an Israeli patrol.



Mr. Zagari's business has limped along thanks to commerce over the existing wall. "This will destroy us," he said of the new one. "Jerusalem gave life to the town."



With its base planted in a trench and its slabs slotted together, the wall going up on Sunday rose more than 25 feet above the ground and seemed certain to repel climbers.



"Look at the height of that thing," murmured one of the construction workers, a 42-year-old Israeli Arab, as the first slab went up. "What's the difference between a house here, and a house there?" he asked, indicating the facing sides of the street, the opposite sides of the barrier.



Much as Palestinian workers built many Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Arab citizens of Israel were building this section of wall even as they opposed its construction.



The 42-year-old man, who asked not to be identified, said that if he did not do the job, someone else would. "What we are doing is wrong," he said. "It's breaking my heart. But what can we do?"



As the construction workers unloaded a crane, it bowed a telephone wire strung in the path of the new wall, between what was being defined as strictly Jerusalem and strictly West Bank.



The Arab man climbed on top of a bulldozer. With a small pair of clippers, he cut the line.

---

_________________

How can you kill people who killed people, to show that killing people is wrong?

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Gatito Grande]

Hey, it's our U.S. tax dollars at work! ($13 billion U.S. subsidy of Israel)



Y'know, if I were Palestinian, I'd probably want to blow myself up (and take out a bunch of Israelis---and maybe Americans?) too.



I know that we have (at least one) Israeli Kitten(s), and I bear no personal grudge. There are many Israelis (to say nothing of Jews around the world) who oppose the criminal policies of the Sharon government. And Americans who who've underwritten Israel for decades are arguably more responsible anyway (especially those frickin' Right-Wing Christians who believe that the more they build up Israel, "the sooner Jesus will come back"---and wipe out unbelieving Jews! ). But these are distinctions (those w/ more responsibility for the occupation and the Wall, those w/ less) that are understandably lost on Palestinians whose lives become a little less bearable w/ each passing day. IMO---YMMV.



GG Thanks, Diebrock. Out

[Kieli]

The turn of events in Israel is truly disturbing to me. What's even more disturbing is the US turning a blind eye to the carnage and making weak threats to Israel concerning it. It sounds very very familiar, wouldn't you say, Diebrock?

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[Kieli]

I felt like I should share this....even though Jackson Browne is not necessarily as militant as he once was, his words always have spoken volumes....as he does here:



LIVES IN THE BALANCE



I've been waiting for something to happen

For a week or a month or a year

With the blood in the ink of the headlines

And the sound of the crowd in my ear

You might ask what it takes to remember

When you know that you've seen it before

Where a government lies to a people

And a country is drifting to war



And there's a shadow on the faces

Of the men who send the guns

To the wars that are fought in places

Where their business interest runs



On the radio talk shows and the T.V.

You hear one thing again and again

How the U.S.A. stands for freedom

And we come to the aid of a friend

But who are the ones that we call our friends--

These governments killing their own?

Or the people who finally can't take any more

And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone

There are lives in the balance

There are people under fire

There are children at the cannons

And there is blood on the wire



There's a shadow on the faces

Of the men who fan the flames

Of the wars that are fought in places

Where we can't even say the names



They sell us the President the same way

They sell us our clothes and our cars

They sell us every thing from youth to religion

The same time they sell us our wars

I want to know who the men in the shadows are

I want to hear somebody asking them why

They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are

But they're never the ones to fight or to die

And there are lives in the balance

There are people under fire

There are children at the cannons

And there is blood on the wire



ETA this other Jackson Browne song for those of us dissenting Americans who love our country but can barely stand to see what it's becoming.





FOR AMERICA



As if I really didn't understand

That I was just another part of their plan

I went off looking for the promise

Believing in the Motherland

And from the comfort of a dreamer's bed

And the safety of my own head

I went on speaking of the future

While other people fought and bled

The kid I was when I first left home

Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own

But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet

When the truth was known

I have prayed for America

I was made for America

It's in my blood and in my bones

By the dawn's early light

By all I know is right

We're going to reap what we have sown



As if freedom was a question of might

As if loyalty was black and white

You hear people say it all the time-

"My country wrong or right"

I want to know what that's got to do

With what it takes to find out what's true

With everyone from the President on down

Trying to keep it from you



The thing I wonder about the Dads and Moms

Who send their sons to the Vietnams

Will they really think their way of life

Has been protected as the next war comes?

I have prayed for America

I was made for America

Her shining dream plays in my mind

By the rockets red glare

A generation's blank stare

We better wake her up this time



The kid I was when I first left home

Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own

But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet

When the truth was known

I have prayed for America

I was made for America

I can't let go till she comes around

Until the land of the free

Is awake and can see

And until her conscience has been found

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 1/13/04 2:44 pm

[urnofosiris]

I saw the images of that wall on the news here tonight and it gave the chills. There are obviously no easy answers to the conflicts in Israel, but this particular answer just feels so wrong. I can't believe it will serve any purpose other than to add to the existing hatred and violence. I don't believe a wall could ever stop that. Why are it always the worst parts of history that seem to be repeating themselves? At least that is what it feels like.

[Gatito Grande]

Just reading Lives in the Balance (much less hearing it) always make me tear up (Then there's the Born in the U.S.A. video: whenever Bruce screams as the camera pans across Arlington, I always lose it. Dammit, tearing up now.)



However, there's a less Kind and Gentle response to these issues. As I'm a pacifist, I can't actually *endorse* the following, but boy do I understand it!

Quote:

---

If I had a rocket launcher



Here comes the helicopter -- second time today

Everybody scatters and hopes it goes away

How many kids they've murdered only God can say

If I had a rocket launcher...I'd make somebody pay



I don't believe in guarded borders and I don't believe in hate

I don't believe in generals or their stinking torture states

And when I talk with the survivors of things too sickening to relate

If I had a rocket launcher...I would retaliate



On the Rio Lacantun, one hundred thousand wait

To fall down from starvation -- or some less humane fate

Cry for guatemala, with a corpse in every gate

If I had a rocket launcher...I would not hesitate



I want to raise every voice -- at least I've got to try

Every time I think about it water rises to my eyes.

Situation desperate, echoes of the victims cry

If I had a rocket launcher...Some son of a bitch would die



Bruce Cockburn

---

GG I see the U.S. lost another helicopter today in Iraq---over there, they do have rocket launchers Out

[robotguru]

This comes from my sociology handbook

Quote:

---

Current debate



The government is planning to introduce new laws to tackle discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation (and religon). The use of the word homosexual will be discouraged because gay people found it offensive and outdated. Instead the phrase "orientation towards people of the same sex" will be used

---

What a load of patronizing bullshit! Since when is homosexual offensive? Who did they ask, Prince Charles? I would rather be known as a homosexual rather than whatever that patronizing mouthfull means.



That's jus my opinion anyway, what do you all think?

------------------



"Ever wonder how i get in the girl's diary? I'm the narrator, an all powerful omnipresent being!" (Me in my fic As the Piper plays)