Xena: Warrior Princess

[Kieli]

Forgive me if I speak out of turn, but I seem to remember Rob Tapert, as well as Lucy Lawless, saying "Absolutely not!" to a movie deal. If I remember the interview correctly, they weren't even entertaining the idea. If that's changed, I've not heard of it. You could probably ask SharonDel (or Sharon Delaney, the official X:WP fan club pres) or even Tyldus (aka Steven Sears....if he's still using that handle on the 'Net somewhere).

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Kieli  at: 2/22/04 7:31 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Kieli, I'm not sure it's so much as a "things have changed" as a "things were never definite in the first place."



IIRC (and between my fuzzy memories, and my wishful thinking, this is always dangerous where XWP is involved) the one time that Lucy was saying Absolutely Not was circa mid-to-late Season4.



Season 4? Strange, you say? Not so much as it appears now. Recall what XWP's biggest rival in syndication, and the Biggest "Genre" TV show of the time, was: The X-Files, which (ill-advisedly it now seems) completed a theatrical movie in the midst of the show.



On top of that, LL has spoken several times of just how wiped she was feeling at that time (she just about collapsed when doing the all-her/No Renee Sin Trade)---besides, she had just gotten knocked up (Howdy Julius!).



FF to '01: everybody's (cast and crew) exhausted. Renee's knocked up (Howdy Miles!). They're getting grief over FIN . . . they're not eager to return to "A Time of Ancient Gods" . . . but they never say never either. Perhaps in response to the FIN Sturm und Drang Lucy went out of her way to re-assert that (f'ed up cosmology, and "cremains" aside) "Xena could always come back."



Was that just telling fans what they wanted to hear? Maybe in part.



But time has a way of blurring the bad memories (the controversies, the exhaustion, some of the more psycho fans) and highlighting the good 'uns (the fact that the show was utterly original, w/ 2---count 'em 2---of just about the best roles for female actors ever, the fact that "the cult" didn't die, giving the movie project a certain amount of "Can't Lose/Critic Proof" appeal). There was just the regular ol' passage of time (the "double-standard" for women shortening the dilly-dallying period), plus certain intangibles (losing Kevin Smith which, while a tragic loss for all involved , brought home the Carpe Diem factor).



Put it all together, and I would say there's been, the last year, an evolution: from the later to the sooner, from the less possible to the very possible (if Katherine Fugate is correct, verging on the probable/inevitable).



Of course, things could still go south: maybe the rights really *are* tied up, maybe this WB deal will take off (any news on that front?), and the somewhat fickle LL will go into an "I'm exhausted" mode again (sorta hopin' Lucy's done breeding w/ 3 , but don't know about Renee). Who knows. But as I understand it, things are looking the most positive for a movie, since at least the series ended.



GG Speaking w/o a shred of wishful thinking. Not even a smidgen. Out

[Kieli]

Quote:

---

Speaking w/o a shred of wishful thinking. Not even a smidgen. Out

---

Suuuure, no wishful thinking whatsoever LOL Actually, the comments I am referring to were made by Rob in an interview sometime just before the final ep. If I remember right, he sounded kinda snippy but I wasn't surprised by that. As much as I invested in the series (i.e. went to the Cons, was a flirtatious member of the Xena Nutball Chat Room, NetForum's Sr. and Jr.), I'm not holding my breath for a Xena movie. Kevin Smith's death 'bout near kilt me. I loved Ares (well I loved Aphrodite too....well and Athena...aw hell, except for Joxer, I loved all of 'em). But all of this silly wrangling over movie rights gets on my nerves and IMHO I think there's some dragging of feet going on. But what do I know?

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[sam7777]

Rob Tapert doesn't have alot going on now so I wouldn't be suprised if he's getting the rights back to Xena. I remember at one point his saying that they wanted to do TV mocves. I hope they get a chance. I want to see Xena back alive and well with Gabrille so can forget about FIN.



Lucy Lawless talks Xena movie

Quote:

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A year or so ago, rumours surfaced that a “Xena” movie might be in the works.



Lucy Lawless tells About.com – whilst on the promotional trail for “Eurotrip” – that any hope of that happening is pretty slim.



“I think the horse might’ve bolted on that one. I feel that by the time they get around to making one, I’ll be too old for it. And who’s going to want to see a 50-year-old woman?” she says. Lawless is adamant though that if it does happen – she should still play her. “I’d be pissed off if they come back and ask me to play her mother or something.”



And who’s she playing in the forthcoming “Boogey Man”? “Drug addicted mother gives up custody of her son who then grows up. You see me in flashbacks only and in his nightmares so I wear a lot of prosthetics. ..Boogey Man is about a young man who is troubled by this apparition, the Boogey Man. You see my character only in flashbacks as the mother who when addicted to drugs gave up custody with him. She gave up custody and then appears later on in his nightmares.”



And will it have that Sam Raimi sensibility? “I don't know, I haven’t seen it. In movies, it really has the stamp of the director. DGA rules are that a director doesn’t even have to show any of his material until he’s made a cut. So it’s not like producers in television who have their hand on the wheel every step of the way. So I would think it has the director’s flavor.”[

---

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 2/26/04 3:57 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Lucy is a hard interview (Must.Not.Write.Bad.). She clearly gives flip answers based upon whatever's in her head at the moment (for example, she's quoted elsewhere saying directly the opposite about "Xena" somewhere in the future: that the character should be resurrected on film, whether she plays her or not).



I don't have a clue why she's like that. Maybe she had a bad experience w/ interviews early on, and has developed the flip response as a defense mechanism ever since. Maybe her manager only *squeezes* interviews into her schedule, so that the interviewer always gets her at the end of the day when she just wants to get through it as fast as possible. Maybe she gets a power rush by leaving people guessing. Maybe she feels like her life was overly-controlled in the past (the perils of teenage motherhood), and doesn't want to get boxed in now.



GG Maybe GG's long-distance armchair psychobabble is endless. Out



I've never forgotten her last pre-FIN interview on The Tonight Show. The only thing Jay Leno got out of her re: the plot, was that "Xena gets a hell of a haircut." Now I was completely unspoiled (well, not completely: there were some rumors Xena would die, but they were held to be suspect. Besides, didn't we have Rob's word? ), but I put 2 and 2 together, and had a pretty good idea what that meant.

[Cicca]

Ohhhhhhhh no, I really think she was referring to that awful kabuki funeral haircut. The ugly one with the freaky make-up when she had Akemi's ashes and burned down Higuchi.

If she meant anything else, that would suck.



I think it's really hard to take her interviews as complete truth because she does seem to say what's on her mind. And her mind seems to change a bit! Fair enough.



Seeing as her husband seems to be really into getting this movie made then I think she'll get there too.

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[Gatito Grande]

I can't prove it, Cicca, but I'm 99% positive she was referring to Xena's decapitation (she said "Xena gets . . . " whereas the Akemi ash scene was just a flashback).



GG And joking about Xena losing her head fits perfectly w/ Lucy's spur-of-the-moment, irreverent sense of humor. Out



Oh, one more thing: Ngila! Ngila! Ngila! Woo Hoo, XWP's very own Oscar-winner! (And I was right: it is pronounced "Nile-a", though some XWP fan swore to me it was pronounced similar to "Angela." Yay me!)

[sam7777]

It may be a pipe dream but I'd really like to see a Xena movie with Xena and Gabrielle back together and forget about FIN. At least, Rob Tapert is considering this option which is much better than others I could name.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[KiwiAlcyone]

I was always so used to watching Xena that I had never actually heard Lucy talk without her faux American accent until I brought the FIN special edition DVD. (although if you wanna hear a really baaaad Kiwi accent, listen to the lead samurai dudein FIN...now that guy needed to be dubbed!) Lucy is so typically Kiwi it's not funny. Her interview responses have always struck me as reflecting this somewhat...off the cuff, somewhat guarded, a wry sense of humour, sometimes irrational but always so very Lucy.



I do hope she makes the movie before she pops out any more little Taperts.



-Alcy

“It’s just my imagination. Some people have flat feet. Some people have dandruff. I have this appalling imagination…”

The Seven Year Itch.

[Cicca]

Eehhhhhhh GG, you're right about Lucy's sense of humour. And given how she didn't really realize how hurtful FIN was, that's probably what she meant.



Yucky, I want to talk about something besides FIN! Just call me Cleopatra.



Ok, so speaking of Cleopatra, who was your favourite? Gina Torres?

Josephine Davison?



Or... oh yeah, her!



Ok so she was only pretending, but she looked really great while doing it.

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[Cicca]

I was just looking at Whoosh today and saw the title of the article. And ooh did it make me mad! I haven't read it yet to see if I'll stay mad, but seeing as you wrote it, I may not. I'll have to go read!



I agree with you about all the Cleos. I know that it's historically inaccurate to have Gina Torres play Cleo, but it was really refreshing to see, even so. Weird of me hey? And yes, I had The Ten Commandments in mind!

Josephine Davison made quite an impact in her minute or so onscreen. Excellent line about being nekkid. heheheheheh

As for Lucy... Oh my. Very sexy as Cleo. Very very very very. Gab as "Eros". Oh indeedy!



Ok, now I have to go read and see if I'm mad at you.





Done! Ok, not mad. heehee That was good! And interesting. And you're a HardcoreNutball! Isn't it fun?



Very interesting idea about what might have developed betwen Xena and Gab if that pressure hadn't been there. I agree that I wouldn't want to be without The Kiss, but it's still interesting to ponder.



I also love how you're so damned stubborn about denying the existence of certain eps or moments! I do the same thing. Although mostly with the idea that Xena's really dead. No no no! She is not!

And Ulysses. Xena could in NO WAY be attracted to that schlump. No way.



I need to watch Antony and Cleopatra again and then get you to explain more about the subtext damage or non-damage in that ep. At least Antony was hot and believably attractive to Xena. One of the very few who worked for me. In context, Marcus worked for me. Now, watching the Xena Scrolls and hearing him described as Xena's "true love" just cracks me up. Ares was always believable, fascinating and so so sexy. And.... I think that's it for believable Xena boy-toys. Rafe? Yeeeeeeah... Sure. Right. Even Herc is questionable, but only because Kevin Sorbo really doesn't do it for me. Borias. Ok, I forgot Borias. He was always great. Except for when his accent went overboard in FIN.

Xena and women? Gab all the way. Lao Ma, yes. Alti, sorta yes as an intense relationship. Physical? Ew! Xena and Cyane. Fine, there wasn't really anything written between those two, but who doesn't love that scene in the sweatlodge? Vicky Pratt....

Xena and Aphrodite? I'm more on the Gab and Aphrodite boat myself. Then there's Gab and Thalassa. Gab and Brunhilda. Gab and Najara! Gab got around. She's a babe magnet.

Oops, enough rambling!

Xena and Gabrielle. I am so grateful to the online subtextual fandom. So grateful.

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

Edited by: Cicca  at: 3/3/04 11:48 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Well, Alcy, if Lucy is "so typically Kiwi" I guess you would know!



[One of the first video files I *ever* downloaded (Summer of '97, when I went Hardcore Nutball Big Time), was a little commercial plugging XWP that was made during the first season. In this backgrounder, Lucy is speaking Kiwi: that's how I first learned that her "American" was fake. Anyway, she has this line in it "Theh's icksillant fighting!" Ever since then, *whenever* I hear a Kiwi on TV, I can never resist saying "Icksillant!" back at 'em (you shoulda heard me Oscar night! )]



I'm fairly certain Lucy is done squirting out Taperts.



So Cicca, you wanna talk Cleopatra? As much as I love Gina Torres , casting a black person as Cleo is historically wrong, wrong, wrong (just as casting pale white Anne Baxter as Nefretiri in The Ten Commandments was equally wrong). Cleo was Greek, not native Egyptian. So I gotta give the nod to Josephine Davidson just for that (plus, she really had a way w/ that line "Is it me, Shiana, or do crises only happen when I'm naked?" ) But Xena as Cleo?



GG And Gabrielle as "Aris" (or is that "Eros" )? Out



Oh, for those who are interested, Yours Truly has just been published again over on Whoosh! (although Editor Kym still needs to do a tiny bit of tweaking---like adding my picture ). I'd be interested in hearing what y'all think of my hypothesis.



www.whoosh.org/issue87/fisher3.html

[Gatito Grande]

Yeah, that Vicky Pratt sweatlodge (exsqueeze me, "banyas" ) scene is great: Young (Evil) Xena, caught looking! (And Hello Vicky! Unlike the Gab sweatlodge scene at the start of Bitter Suite, there ain't no body double involved: the pan up her bodacious bod is done in a single shot!)



Glad you're not mad at me, Cicca. My main point was that the Quest Kiss happened so soon, and so suddenly, when TPTB weren't prepared to take the relationship any further---and things started to become contradictory after that (I love Kym's caption under the first picture---those are all entirely her doing, along w/ the "hidden" captions, which are always hysterical---saying "Who would believe they would be kissing a year later?")



Re: Antony in Antony and Cleopatra. His hotness or lack thereof is not the issue---neither is Xena's attraction to him (everyone's entitled to my opinion but that Xena is bi is hardly debatable). The question---re: damaging the Subtext/Maintext---is whether Xena's relationship to him (i.e. emotions, not just lust) is far too serious compared to where one thinks her relationship is w/ Gabrielle at that point in time. The fact that I find so much of S5 forgettable helps to minimize the damage for me, IMO. However, if this ep were to come early in S5 (when Ides of March is still fresh in my mind), then this episode would have pissed me off royally. And if the episode had come in S6, I would be so angry as to say "that episode never happened" (no matter how hot Lucy and Renee look in their Egyptian finery).



Re: Alti: I just love the kinkiness she represents. Her thing for Xena was one-sided, and she knew it, so love her getting a vicarious happy by playing Pimp Daddy: "Here, Young Evil Xena, play w/ Anokin, and don't say Daddy never gave ya nuthin!" (Since the term "alt" was used for f/f fan-fiction in the Xenaverse, when Alti was introduced, I remarked: "Oh yeah: she's an alt-i alright. And How!"



GG Gabrielle the Babe Magnet: was there every anyone, on-screen or off, who didn't fall madly for the Gabster? I even have a little song about it: "Everybody loves Gabrielle, everybody loves Gabrielle, everybody loves Gabrielle, but Gabby loves only Xe!" Out



I don't think I realized how much I identified as Xena (in terms of psychologically projecting myself onto her character ), until I intuited that it was only by being Xena that Gabrielle could love me!

[Cicca]

I've had two posts go kablooey (and surprisingly, neither was EZBoards' fault!) so I'm going to have to try again tomorrow.



In the meantime, I'll go with being shallow and hormonal.



Three cheers for Cyane!

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[sam7777]

The season 3 DVDs are coming out:



Xena Season Three

Quote:

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Xena has received a cult fan base due to a unique combination of fantasy, action and even a little underlying tone of lesbianism…

---

I know that's what I was watchinng for.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[Gatito Grande]

"a little underlying tone"?



Actually, sam, the S3 DVDs came out a month ago (in the U.S. that is). I was pleased to see the amount of attention the roll-out got (moreso than S1&2): ads on Oxygen, and a listing in the Best Buy "new this week" flyer.



GG Now, I just wish I could *afford* to buy 'em---and a DVD player---now. Out

[KiwiAlcyone]

Ahhh, season three has some great lesbian moments.



Joxer to Xena: "Is that a hickey?"

(Gabs looks guiltily at the ground)



And pretty much all of "One Against An Army." That's one of my all time favourite episodes.



-Alcy

“It’s just my imagination. Some people have flat feet. Some people have dandruff. I have this appalling imagination…”

The Seven Year Itch.

[Gatito Grande]

Yeah, Alcy, S3 would be worth having (esp. for "underlying lesbian tone"! ) if only for the two eps mentioned (Been There, Done That and One Against an Army).



But there's so much to love: The Debt, for one. Who could forget Xena/Lao Ma? (The Breath of Life kiss: lovingly "borrowed" from an earlier Hong Kong movie---where it was between a m/f romantic couple---and Lao Ma's classic "I don't eat meat"! ) Heck, I even love the way the ep(s) begin: Xena reaching over in the bedroll, clearly indicating she intended to embrace whom she thought would be there.



This may not be a universal opinion, but for sheer drama (esp. dramatic pacing!) and acting chops, XWP never made a better episode than Maternal Instincts: Lucy, Renee, Hudson and Danielle (Amy Morrison as "Hope" too) are ALL firing on all cylinders. Spectacular performances: which, to quote Callisto, "rips out your heart, your guts---till all that's left is the pain" (God, just the scene where Xena looks at Gabrielle after she's poisoned Hope: they're both absolutely devastated---and devastating. That scene is amazingly shot, too, w/ the light and shadows. Then they kill us at the funeral pyres, just a little bit more.) Bravissima!



What can one say about The Bitter Suite? (Other than amazing). The debate about the first 10 minutes will be endless: in character? Out of character? Obscene? Horrifying but true? Some combination of all of the above? [GG believes that it was in character: Xena, insane w/ grief (and given a further push by Ares), dragging Gab. I just thought the particular way it was shot---lack of decent editing---was Too Much.] "Illusia" was just incredible: what an artistic leap for a silly little "sword-n-sorcery" series! ("Love Will Be Our Guide" has gotten me through some tough moments). And then that last embrace in the waves . . .



One Against an Army: I can't say anything beyond, it makes you wish they had done more episodes w/ no listed guest stars!



An episode I didn't think a lot of when first shown, but which gets better and better w/ time, is Fins, Femmes and Gems (I think that the well-publicized controversies about this episode---that the original script called for Gabrielle to be obsessed w/ Xena, and how sponsor DeBoers Diamonds objected---distracted one from just how good it actually is). Lots of fun subtext moments, and a delightfully suggestive ending. (And, as in Been There, my fave of all-time XWP comedy, Joxer is actually tolerable )



Another sort of controversial ep was Forget Me Not (once again, there were all those "In character? Out of character?" debates). While some of the acting was lame (that priestess of Mnemosyne may have been an all-time low), and clip eps always feel like something of a cheat, I generally thought the ep was good. I did believe that G could have been motivated by jealousy---that Debt parting cut Our Gabby like a knife! (I always see that moment, FWIW, as a karmic "payback" parallel to the "G leaves X" scene in Return of Callisto: check the similarity between the two---"always the bridesmaid"---and see what I mean! ). The only problem was that it set up a bit of a YAXI (Yet Another Xena Inconsistancy) w/ the earlier scene in One Against (G couldn't remember her jealous act of betrayal in Chin, while dying? )



When in Rome: another awesome subtext-laden ep. Gabrielle w/ wind in her hair on board the ship? Remember Pompey's "I got your number, Xena!" innuendo: "Caesar seems to think she [Gabrielle] has some kind of power over you: he wants that power." And then a very moving, subtexty ending ("I'm with you because I want to be, Xena" plus another round of "I love you's" ).



In contrast to many other Xenites, I wasn't too fond of Sacrifice (either ep). I was really ready for the Rift to be over already. However, gotta love Xena's S3 re-cap: "A lot has happened in the past year, and at times we were very confused." The Warrior Princess is really the "Queen of the Understatement" there, eh?



GG blathering on about My Great Love again---and I haven't even mentioned all the classic "hurt/comfort" scenes in "The Deliverer" and "Gabrielle's Hope" Out

[Gatito Grande]

Oh lookie: I'm consecutively posting on the Kitten's XWP thread. Geez, don't I have a life or something? Yeah, it just all revolves around Xena! (or Xena&Gabrielle, to be precise)



For example, I've been on this major downloading binge, downloading XWP music videos left and right. I'm not exactly sure what brought this on. In part, it's because Michigan is moving into thunderstorm season (the next 6 months), and I've lost hard-drives to lightening damage before (ergo, download and burn to CD now). But I know it's more than that: I'm feeling very prone to nostalgia lately (a disease I generally try to fight as much as possible---just not where XWP is concerned ). We're coming up on 3 years since the show ended (can it really have been that long?). I know the movie rumors have been growing, but they are still just rumors.



Part of me tries to be brutally realistic (pessimistic?), and think that we may never see LL as Xena, and ROC as Gabrielle again (we've already lost the chance to see KS as Ares : interesting to read Katherine Fugate---author of possible script for possible movie---where she says that she will not recast anyone as Ares. Wise move.). I don't want to get my hopes up for something that may never happen, and becomes increasingly less likely, pretty much w/ every passing year. (And even though Hardcore Nutballs know that Lucy and Renee will only get more beautiful as they get older, it's discouraging to think how the H'wood wankers will want to point out, first and foremost, how they will have aged. )



Geez, this is starting to turn into a self-obsessed blog-style entry, so let me get down to business, as it were. I promised sam that I'd address her comments from the "Top 10 Shows" thread here:

Quote:

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Personally I get rapidly bored with shows that have all cynical, formerly evil or selfish people. That can be as dull as having all paragons and as unimaginative and uninteresting. I think good people can be as interesting as bad people looking for redemption and I like to see some karma. I hate it when people who rape and murder and mildly repent can become good guys. Xena went on a 6 season odyssey to make up for her past sins and realistically was not seen as redeemed by everyone. She was a hero but Gabrielle was even more of a hero for never being evil and just trying to do the best she could in a violent word IMHO. Gabrielle had flaws but she is a hero for me because she never gave in an became evil. That takes more strength and is more laudable IMHO than coming back from evil.

---

Short answer: I agree and I disagree. Long answer: . . . nobody wants to hear that!



Moderately-obsessed answer: Gabrielle is a hero, no question about it (The Essential G (from FIN): Question: "Would you risk your life for hers [Xena's, of course]?" Without hesitation, Gabrielle says "Without hesitation." ) But I'm not sure how believable her 6 (um, make that 32) year odyssey was. Gabrielle's swings of character/life philosophy were dizzying, and often, she came across as more plot device than actual person (even if always that peerless combination of utterly adorable and Drop Dead Sexy ). You know the classic line from Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Jessica Rabbit: "I'm not really bad, I'm just written that way." Sometimes Gabrielle's unstained-by-the-world innocence comes across the same way. I can't let the fact that I'm completely and madly in love w/ Gabrielle (fiction be damned! ) blind me to the fact that plot device is plot device: Gabrielle is Xena's (and everyone else's) Angel because that's what the overall narrative (and hence, the various writers---most of the time!) need her to be.



Xena's journey of atonement is more amazing to me, not because it is always credible (if anything, people were more committed then than now to hunting down ex-warlord's and avenging everyone they killed) or consistent---it isn't---than that it is happening at all. "I hate it when people who rape and murder and mildly repent can become good guys." sam, you got me here: what other women in fiction can you name that fall into this category?



One can argue, of course, that this "Anti-Hero on Journey of Redemption" is a plot that the boys can keep---far away from you. For me however, those characters who, in the past, have failed Big Time, and are trying to pay it back (never how vain the attempt), provide just too strong a vehicle for identification (I don't know how old you are, sam: I've had 42 years to f*ck up, so have gotten pretty good at it. No rapes or murders that I'm aware of though! ) All praise be to Rob Tapert and John Schulian for creating a Female F*ck-Up w/ whom I can identify!



FWIW, I don't see this as "Xena is a character who sinks to the level of male malfeasance", rather "Xena is a character who rises to the importance of the (traditionally male anti-) hero's journey."



However, that said, I will concede one major problem w/ Xena as a character: her backstory. That is, nothing in the number of "winters ago" we were ever shown, effectively explained the depth of depravity to which she sank. So, let's see: her father (or at least father figure: that was never conclusively answered) wanted to kill her, so her mom offed him instead. Not a great beginning, but still (Cyrene was always presented as an adequate parent). We know she "ran w/ the young toughs" of Amphipolis---but then she lost her favorite brother to a warlord: tough break. But she had "many skills" (and possibly "supermortal" i.e. demigod bloodline?), and rallied the town, getting some payback nearby. She meets (and boinks) Caesar Julius Caesar, he betrays her, and kills M'lila, the Cutie Pie (w/ skills of her own) from the Land of the Pha-roah.



That's it. It's on the basis of the above facts---admittedly, some painful ones---that we are supposed to believe everything followed to turn a (possibly demigod) tavern-owner's daughter into "the Destroyer of Nations." In my opinion, it's not near enough to be believable. I don't want to get graphic (or cliche'd) but it seems to me we're missing some Far Greater Traumas: losing all her family (ala Callisto!). Some kind of severe abuse (e.g. sexual) for a long period of time. Maybe some slavery (ala AlterG in Remember Nothing!). Perhaps some kind of neurological damage? (Cyrene "Sorry I dropped you on your head in your first hours on Earth, honey." ) Something a heck of a lot worse than the bare facts of Xena's Youth we were given. (Seeing the kinds of evil that we were shown Evil Xena doing, instead being done to her---maybe some fire or man-eating crab scars? ---would have gone a long way to making both her Warlord *and* her Hero days more credible.)



GG If anyone wants to know my list (and sources) of favorite XWP music vids, just write me. Out

[Strapping Lass]

Hey GG

Wow seeing how many times you posted on this thread has reminded me of my own Xena obsessed days back on the ole’ Nutforum.

God I was crazy over Xena for a long while – it was, along with the X-Files, my really big tv love. It also had a lot to do with the rise of chicks-kick-ass tv we have now. When Xena started it was a surprise to tv execs that a show with a female lead – not to mention a dark, violent, anti-hero trying to make amends female lead – would be such a success.

I have been reading with interest the posts on this thread and thought I might chip in with my two cents for what its worth.

I think on the subject of Xena’s back story you left out one very, very important thing - GG Caesar doesn’t just simply ‘betray’ Xena.

At that point Xena was a confident strong leader of a pirate crew – as we know from Pirates of the Caribbean - a boat means freedom - it means the world is open to you.

So Xena has left the village, left the small confining world that would have been her life in the tiny village in Greece. She used the rage and grief of her brother’s murder to rouse her home village to fight back – pretty empowering for a troublesome youth who had been one of the chief delinquents in the village.

Imagine the self-esteem issues she would have had growing up both without a father and then with the knowledge her Mother had murdered him to save her. So it must have been a big power kick to lead those in Amphipolis who would have previously had no time for her, thing is you can never go back after moments like that. Being the ‘normal’ tavern owners daughter would chafe Xena now and no doubt something showed in her when she fought that would have also alienated her from home – so much strength and bloodlust for a mere girl.

So she took over the warlords mantle and defending Amphipolis from one man became defending it from all – an excuse no doubt to venture away from village life until she is where we see her at the beginning of Destiny a rich powerful Pirate Queen – tough and on the grey edges of morality and law but not evil yet - and then she takes Caesar prisoner.

He runs rings around her – she falls for him hook line and sinker – I think she comes as near to loving him as she could love at that point and look how her betrays her. He takes her ship, her freedom and gold and then has her and her crew crucified.

Its that moment of crucifixion and of her legs being broken that’s the key to Xena becoming evil – that much pain and torture from someone she cared for and being hobbled, crippled, unable to defend her self would have been devastating to someone as vain and proud as young Xena.

Then just as she could be pulled back from it – given hope again - the people who have helped her the healer and M’lila are murdered by yet more Romans – M’lila being killed saving Xena’s life – that’s the final straw and in fact the end of that scene in Destiny with Xena issuing a warning to Hades to expect lots more dead as a new Xena has been born that night in blood is one of my favorites in the whole series.


That’s when it begins the whole curdling of Xena - the crippled tormented half mad Xena we meet with Borias just before she goes to Chin is a grief stricken feral creature – she is even seen captured in a cage when she meets Lao Ma for the first time – there is that line in the Debt Pt 1 as well when she tells Gabby ‘with shattered legs and a crippled soul, I went east, set on vengeance against the entire human race.’

Getting her legs healed by Lao Ma she nearly heals her soul too but can’t give into yet isn’t able to stop the anger and rage and so becomes the Xena who killed and rampaged

until she met Herc.

There are other things too but I would say in terms of motivating reasons to go to the bad she had more than enough with the leg breaking/crucifixion – in fact it’s the recurring theme as they put her through it more than once.

I could go on a lot more about the show – I would argue the hero of the show in terms of the classic hero archetype was Gabs as she starts as the naïve village kid who travels with the warrior with a past who trains her and whom she eventually replaces after their death – becoming the lead hero, but that’s for another post.

Anyway feel free to disagree but I do think Xena had more than enough motivation to be evil and if she hadn’t met Lao Ma she would be a cripple which should be ‘evil done to her’ evidence enough even for you GG.

Strapping Lass

[Gatito Grande]

SL: Kinda scary, aren't I? (Not quite to "Hope" level, but hey! )



Thanks for responding---this thread is always in danger of turning into my little obsessed-monologue (Thank the gods I didn't start it, or I'd have no cover at all! )



I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Of course we all know what Now-EvilX said after offing C,JC's thugs in Destiny (confirmed at the start of The Debt Part One), but it still just doesn't ring true for me. I mean, EvilX was one twisted sister, and Seduction/Betrayal and even Crucifixion (& Crippling) by C,JC doesn't seem sufficient trauma for that level of psyche-warping. Perhaps it's because Xena was at least 18 at the time: old enough to process what happened, not letting it blow apart everything she was before. Now, if anything like this had happened when she was a good deal younger, then I could understand it. YMMV.



One thing, though:

Quote:

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Imagine the self-esteem issues she would have had growing up both without a father and then with the knowledge her Mother had murdered him to save her.

---

Xena didn't know her mother killed her father---she didn't even know her father was dead (hence, falling for Ares' scheme in Ties that Bind). Those revelations didn't come out until, um, 11 winters later in The Furies.



GG Good 'ol Nut Forum: home of the (too) many psycho "fans" Out



Also not credible: EvilX as this Great Commanding Conqueror. She was always portrayed as being too out-of-control to be believable as the kind of general who would win great campaigns and earn her warrior's trust (w/o which great campaigns cannot be won). For example, in Past Imperfect, she says that her army was stronger than Borias's. What soldier in the Known World would choose to follow the Steppe Psycho over Mr. B? Well, other than to sleep w/ her, I mean! (Though protecting her *secret* fecundity would tend to impinge on that, as well)

[sam7777.]

GG: I don't have a problem with the "Anti-Hero on Journey of Redemption" plot. When I said that I hate it when people who rape and murder and mildly repent can become good guys, I was not referring to Xena but another show. I believe that Xena did much more than mildly repent and went through alot to save people and make up for what she did making the sacrifice in FIN realy unnecessary.

[Cicca]

Interesting discussion on the believability of Evil Xena. How's this? She really really liked kicking ass and going psycho after Destiny let her do it.



Ok, maybe not.

Young evil Xena always fascinates me. That twitchy, cocky, smirky attitude. She and Cyane were great to watch together. Cyane...

I'd like to sit down when all 6 season are on dvd and just watch bits of "ten winters ago" in story order. Some of it doesn't hang together, but since when was Xena consistent?

I still miss it a lot. 3 years! I can't believe it.

And I'm still crazy optimistic for that movie. And as long as I'm around, this thread won't end up an obsessed monologue. Hell no! Obsessed dialogue or conversation, maybe.

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[KiwiAlcyone]

You guys don't need to worry too much about monologues. I'm all for keeping the memory of Xena very much alive and kicking.



As for the movie, Lucy was interviewed just this week in the NZ TV guide and she's still keen if the whole who-owns-the-rights thing is ever sorted.



I've got all six seasons on DVD and suffice to say some of them are receiving a lot more wear and tear than others (lets not mention a certain episode in season five that has only ever been and will only ever be watched once!)



I'm not really an evil Xena fan, just like I'm not a peace-loving Gabby fan. All the eppys where Gabs was all with the no weapons thing really sucked, save Ides of March of course for obvious reasons.

However, eppys with evil Xena generally turned out to be pretty damn good.



Alcy

“Do you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real and you’re just a reflection of him?” Calvin and Hobbes

[Gatito Grande]

Heh-heh: you just knew you'd draw me out.

Quote:

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I'd like to sit down when all 6 season are on dvd and just watch bits of "ten winters ago" in story order. Some of it doesn't hang together, but since when was Xena consistent?

---

Y'know, there used to be a website that was trying to do a full history of Xena (her backstory, and the occassional interpolation during the chronology of the 32 years---more or less!---of the series itself). But the last time I saw it (which was when the show was still on), it had long since not kept up---I don't know if it was even being updated (as w/ far too many XWP websites, then and since). Assuming it (or one like it) is not still around, it's something I'd love to do (dammit, if only I had the time and "financial independence" ).



GG It's that historian in me. And if I spotted places where inconsistencies could be fixed w/ minor tweaking, I'd do that, too. (Goes back to my first Whoosh! essay, wherein I juggled S2's eps to make the narrative more coherent ) Out



Damn, I just really need my own XWP website myself, is what. (Time. Money. Time. Money.)



Kiwi, which S5 ep is your all-time heinous-est? That season had quite a few candidates!



Oh, has everybody seen this? Katherine Fugate, author of script for PleaseDearGodinHeaven XWP movie, in interview for "Box Office Mojo"

Quote:

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BOM: Are Xena and Gabrielle going to be lovers?



Fugate: It was pretty clear that they were [lovers]. But the series wasn't about a lesbian relationship as much as it was about a heroine. I don't want to write a domestic drama. It's clear that they're lovers but that's not going to be the focus.

---

www.boxofficemojo.com/art...fugate.htm



"It's clear that they're lovers": I can definitely live w/ this.

[Cicca]

Yes, I Katherine Fugate!



For me, Fishsticks jumps to my mind as the most heinous, but it's not actually. For me anyway. I usually think of those hideous disappointments of Purity and Back In The Bottle. Way to mess up the Lao Ma story, thanks! Ugh.



I'm going to have to go sneaking through the Whoosh archives and read up! I used to haunt that site like crazy when the show was on. ooh the fun! And a complete chronology for Xena would be interesting. Although I still wonder how certain stuff can fit together. One that sticks out for me is The Xena Scrolls, but that's not really part of Xena's backstory. And then I miss Kevin Smith some more.



So back to Katherine Fugate. If it stays subtext like it was in WFC that's fine with me except that it cried out for a kiss in that jail scene. The lack of a kiss was so noticeable. Silly!

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[Gatito Grande]

Quote:

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For me, Fishsticks jumps to my mind as the most heinous, but it's not actually. For me anyway. I usually think of those hideous disappointments of Purity and Back In The Bottle. Way to mess up the Lao Ma story, thanks! Ugh.

---

Well, that's exactly what I argued in my most recent Whoosh! essay. [I never really could understand the Fishsticks loathing. Comedies: ya love 'em---ADITL; BT, DT; FF&G; MHR!---or ya don't (won't list the lame-o's, but there were quite a few, inc. Fish), but they can't really bollocks up the narrative the way a Purity/BITB or a Soul Possession (simultaneous and ) can.]



GG Although I'm sometimes tempted to believe that S5 never happened, there are still enough good moments, that you could edit them down (to include essential narrative things: e.g., Eve), to make half of a really decent season, IMO. Out



GG's dreaming of a DVD player by the time S4 comes out on June 15 . . . And yay! Gabrielle is finally included on the cover! (As MaryD sez, "Bout damn time!")

[KiwiAlcyone]

Fishsticks is the worst Xena eppy of all time in my books. Nothing ever made me more ashamed to be a Xena fan.



They needed an episode to show Gabs could be a great mother to Eve and there's so many ways they could have done it - just think of the potential for a really great Gabs story here!

Instead they come up with her as the mother of a brood of ugly, nasty little children, married to Joxer with a bad wig.



I wish I could find a way to erase it from my DVD.



I agree that Purity and Back in the bottle were also hideous but they didn't contain bad wigs.



Alcy

“Do you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real and you’re just a reflection of him?” Calvin and Hobbes

Edited by: KiwiAlcyone  at: 4/27/04 4:13 pm

[Cicca]

Yeah, when you put it that way, Fishsticks is a big waste. And I'm just remembering the horror of Discord's "Joisey" accent. Eek!



Soul Possession, yes thanks for that reminder. Way to mess stuff up! Blech.



Ah well, whenever I get grumpy, I just think of the end of MHR. Yeah.

Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive?

[Gatito Grande]

But remember what I said about editing: when the S6 DVD comes out, I would like to see an edit of SP that includes *just* the Mattie&Annie getting together parts!



GG Heh-heh: plus, someone needs to splice scenes of X and G in their wedding dresses, to make that turn out like it should! Out