I don't have much to say because there isn't much to say. What Mr. Greenberg and Ms. Espension have said on the BB deserves no direct reply from me because it would only dignify their hate-mongering ignorance in their own twisted little minds. And I have better things to do with my time than to waste it on the likes of them. UPN, Fox and any email address that HIP has so helpfully provided, on the other hand, will definitely hear from me.



All I am certain of is that when (not "if") this sordid freak-show of violence, pain, cruelty and - yes - outright prejudice masquerading itself as "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" finally folds seven months from now, I wonder if these following five words will be used by those same writers to justify their contemptuous attitude towards the millions of viewers who are responsible for their very livelihood:



"I was only following orders."



And we all know how well that worked for an even more deplorable collection of so-called human beings in the past, and they didn't get away with that excuse either. And neither should Mutant Enemy. Not as long as we remember.

_______________



Dave C.

Edited by: Munchkin at: 10/15/02 1:51:35 pm

Well it looks like the writers are scrambling. And I am not surprised considering the strong persistent rumor I've heard: If Buffy's ratings don't improve, this show could be gone before May Sweeps.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

But you know, another sad thing in all this is that IF they do cancel the show around, say, episode 18, the writers will pull their change-the-story routine again and tell us that "oh, it's a shame, we were planning to bring Tara back in episode 19. Too bad you homophobic fans ruined everything for all the nice straight viewers everywhere."



Everyone else said it better, so I'll stop, except to say that I keep thinking they've said the most hurtful things they can possibly say. And then they start talking again.

***************

"Run, flee, maybe skedadlle. We're not here to engage. This is strictly recon." Willow, on season seven, in "This Year's Girl"

Edited by: Tulipp at: 10/15/02 2:02:43 pm

Maybe they will learn something. Stranger things have happened. I doubt it but we have gotten our message to some folks who have posted their thanx here. One fan who now sees the GLBT issues means more to me than 1000 insulting posts by the ME writers. You change the world one person at a time.

I see dead lesbian cliches.

Just of couple of niggling, nitpicking things (no offense meant, it's the language major in me ).



sparrow--the ME people are trying to justify or exculpate themselves. They are trying to vilify us!!



tommo--excellent post, but I seem to recall reading or hearing that Mr. Greenberg is not, in fact, "a straight man". Please confirm if you've heard otherwise.

Edited by: Hemiola at: 10/15/02 4:32:39 pm

I don't care if the Bronzers want to read this thread and copy sections of it for their board. Let them. Maybe they'll learn a thing or two.



And Xita, where oh where did you hear this most interesting rumor?

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

Jane should really go into politics – talk about spinning. First she talked up the boy numbers and now she’s telling us how great the view is from the front row seats. You get the feeling if she was on the Titanic she’d be talking about how pretty the iceberg was.



These people are feeling the heat and it’s beginning to show. This could get uglier before it’s all said and done.

Y'know, if you really want to hurt ME then DONT WATCH THE SHOW..I mean it..Words are great, and we have some of the most eloquent spokespeople around on this board, but words are not going to hurt ME... the only thing that will ever begin to get ME 's attention are falling ratings..Hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook. UPN too.. Let these people know that there are real consequences to their actions..Call your friends, family co-workers..Talk to anyone you can and convince them to skip Buffy and give the Gilmore Girls a go...

I would just like to thank WW and DrLoyd for braving that place and allowing the ME writers to show their true colors. That was above and beyond!



The whole homophobe thing made me livid, and I will not go into that except to marvel at DG's gall. Simply amazing and sickening.



What also really has me pissed, and has since it first was used as a defense, is the whole "we wanted you to love her so when we took her away it would hurt," BS line of argument. This is such utter crap! There is no excuse for this kind of storytelling. The Buffyverse is built on a foundation of pain and misery? Why the frig would I ever want to read or watch anything set in such a world? If I am that masochistic I can read about concentration camps in WWII at least that might educate me and allow me to marvel at what some people had to endure. Screw ME, Joss and the writers who espouse this kind of sick crap as entertainment! It isn't. They wonder why things are going so bad, maybe they should question their underlying assumptions and philosophies. Anyone with this outlook can't have any respect or sympathy for their audience. The real world is bad enough as it is, there is no reason to support anything that makes it worse. And when we the audience don't buy into their sick dark fantasies they are surprised that we object, and then they call us names? Frankly I'm surprised Tara survived as long as she did. It must have really rankled them to have such a beautiful and loving couple on their show. No wonder Joss was so excited with Tara's death.



I'll end this rant by saying anyone who deliberately wants to hurt me or cause me pain is not welcome in my house. I will be so glad when this farce of a show dies.



Garner

I was too stunned and angry and tired to comment about this last night. In truth, I'm far too tired to post now, but, here I am.

Quote:

---

In characterizing Tara's death as yet another in the string of cliched lesbian deaths, you indicate that you do not see Tara as anything but a lesbian, you do not see her as the unique character she was, but rather just as a woman who had sex with women, and, in doing so, you reveal your own homophobia, your own prejudice and, more than anything else, your own lack of understanding of what we did with that character.

---

I understand perfectly what ME did with Tara's character: they created a sympathetic character whose sole purpose was to be murdered after lesbian sex, facilitating an evil rampage by Willow. In the process, they presented a murky, confusing magick=lesbian sex=death=evil metaphor; destroyed TV's first and only longterm lesbian couple; actively lied to their viewers; and openly mocked the viewers' pain.



Mutant Enemy not only invoked the cliche, they brought it to a new, malicious low with their puerile behavior, appalling lack of self and social awareness and stubborn sense of irresponsibility.



What's not to understand?



And now I've been called a homophobe by Drew Greenberg (who was oh so maturely cheered on by Jane Espenson)? Not only is that insult childish, inflammatory, hurtful and, oh yeah, laughably untrue...it pisses me the hell off.



Like Kyraroc said, most of us have done everything we can to be polite, respectful, calm and reasonable in our efforts to educate people about the lesbian cliche and how Tara's death falls into it. I've personally gone out of my way to avoid the use of certain words--"homophobe" chiefly among them--because they shut down communication, are often arbitrarily applied, and, mostly, because I try never to be rude or offensive to anyone. That includes people I disagree with. The Lesbian Cliche FAQ was written from this perspective.



So, to have Drew Greenberg state that I am a homophobe because I don't think murdering Tara after sex and sending Willow on a murder spree was a positive message, is shocking and infuriating. The vast majority of those hurling accusations of homophobia during this whole debacle have been Mutant Enemy writers and those who defend them. Those of us who have written the FAQ and essays have gone out of our way to say that Tara's death is NOT about homophobia. It's about hope and equality and messages (intended and not) and responsibility. It's also about decency and respect. I have always tried to conduct myself that way. I'm genuinely sorry and hurt that Mutant Enemy writers can't be equally bothered with such plebian niceties.



This brings me to another sensitive point that Xita already touched on. Since the FAQ was created as the antithesis to the irrational flame-wars that started springing up all over the 'Net in the wake of Tara's death, I am disappointed to see that its mention played a part in angering Drew and Jane. The writers have already seen the FAQ. All the people who post at the Bronze already know all about it. They've rejected it, as is their right. Dragging the FAQ and the Kitten name into personal battles about ratings, etc., on other boards does nothing but give the impression that the Kittens are a hysterical group looking for a fight. I'm not looking for a fight. All I've ever wanted to do is peacefully educate. Incidents like this make that increasingly difficult. So, please leave the FAQ out of individual skirmishes with boards that never have and never will understand. That's not what the FAQ is for.



Amy



Edited for typos.

Edited by: Willowlicious at: 10/15/02 7:16:29 pm

Amy for what it's worth I have showed the cliche essay to several people who have come into the comic store I assistant manage and they read it and liked it and it did seem to educate them quite a bit. Likewise I have shown them some of Bob's articles, and HIP's ratings analysis. All of that has been greatly appreciated and no one has ever accused these pieces of being inflammatory or calling ME or Joss homophobic. Actually all these helped correct that impression one person got from other Buffy chat boards. So at least here some good was done.



I also do find it surprising that JE and DG would pick now to bring all this up at the Bronze. Inquiring minds wonder what may be up?



Garner

Wow I almost missed this and I am still trying to get it right. We here at the Kitten are homophobic? Um do they even know what the kitten board even is? I'm incredibly insulted by this comment and really wonder exactly what the writers have in their heads other than to much ME crack. It seem's strange that Jane hasn't heard of the board, didn't she do a succubus club interview after SDK because if she did I am sure she is well informed and was told what to expect.



Oh and I read through Drew's 'argument' over Tara and it's seriously flawed. Bob was right when he said it was straw man and this from someone taking sophmore level psychology. Someone needs to get their facts straight.

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

The ratings are fine huh. Well then what industry papers are they reading? Speaking as one in the industry the ratings are not fine for the show, for the network and not bloddy well fine for the advertisers, hmm giving away ad space. Yea rates are fine, talk about insane troll logic. Anyway going back into my cave now to get more pins for my ME voodoo dolls.

And, yet, I just can't seem to care


What, no hug

sparrow - it was obviously spin on Janes part



UPN lowered their ratings expectations (they're not only down in HH's their down in their key demos!) costing them $ for their ad time because they expected more ratings erosion and didn't want to get hit with loads of makegoods. They're taking a bath in red ink with buffy (est a mil per ep) and haven't gotten the expected lead out help for two seasons now - not to mention all the neg press over season six.





www.mediaweek.com/mediawe...id=1741039

Aim Low, Miss Low

John Consoli

OCTOBER 14, 2002 -

[UPN is down 24 percent in household ratings and 31 percent in the adults 18-49 demo so far this season]

[UPN has also avoided early makegoods by going into the season with lowered expectations.....Since ratings on several key returning shows declined through last season, UPN lowered its guarantees (and its rates) on those programs for this season................for UPN's Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, which premiered last season at a 4.3 in households and a 3.8 in 18-49 but tailed off to a 3.3 in homes by the end of the season. This season, the show has averaged a 3.1, about 6 percent below its likely guarantee. New drama Haunted, which has averaged a paltry 1.5/2 in households and 1.1/2 in 18-49, was only half-sold in the upfront, so fewer advertisers will be owed makegoods.]



www.impactwrestling.com/c...recon=2619

[UPN is off to a very bad start to their new season as many of their shows are scoring much lower ratings then they were at the start of last season. UPN apparently took this into consideration when they lowered the ad rates for shows such as Enterprise and Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

You could really feel the frustration level in Greenberg's posts. It is, I suspect, because we keep seeing what they're actually doing and not what they think they intended to do.



When you start throwing anvils around, you need to watch out for your own feet.

Quote:

---

And I am not surprised considering the strong persistent rumor I've heard: If Buffy's ratings don't improve, this show could be gone before May Sweeps.

---

This time last year that suggestion would have had me hopping mad, now all I feel is relief and grim satisfaction. Drew and co are missing the point. We were all fans of the show and now we detest it, doesn't that say somehting about the quality of what was put on air last year? That however ingenious it mat have been, however 'clever' it alienated a large part of the fan base and was almost by definition a failure? The only good that comes out of this for me is that it convinces me if someone is prepared to pay these people then it can't be that hard to become a writer.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Quote:

---

The only good that comes out of this for me is that it convinces me if someone is prepared to pay these people then it can't be that hard to become a writer.

---

HA! Don't I wish...



What it tells me is that one's ability to be paid as a writer has very little to do with any actual ability to write or understand the impact of what you write. And that's something I've already been painfully aware of for years...

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

Oh bob, you know how the winds blow to and fro... and you hear things..

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Quote:

---

What it tells me is that one's ability to be paid as a writer has very little to do with any actual ability to write or understand the impact of what you write.

---

Well Bob I can be as much of a hack as the next guy, unless it's Jeffrey Archer of course...

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Well I am just stunned after reading this thread. For Drew and Jane to lash out by labeling "kittens" as homophobes just shows how low/desperate ME has become. Other "kittens" have been more eloquent on the subject of the cliche, so I won't go in-depth, but what borders on lunacy (besides the homophobe label) is the obvious fact that these writers can't take criticism, and god-forbid you disagree (with a thought out, eloquent FAQ) they will lash out with this nonsense. If they can't take the "heat" then they shouldn't work in Hollywood.



Between Drew's bizarre arguments why Tara's death doesn't fit the cliche, to Jane's "spin" that the ratings are just fine, this just reinforces to me we are definitely hurting them. And not with childish (as well as hurtful) name-calling the writers have resorted to, but rather by merely stating the facts. With this in mind, if Buffy does get canceled (whether before the season is over, or not renewed for season 8) ME brought it on themselves, and all the spin/name-calling isn't going to change that simple truth.

Quote:

---

"In the character of Tara, we carefully constructed a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong...so that when we took her away, the audience(note not the Scoobies) would feel her absence..."

---

So there we have the whole reason Tara was on the show. They created her solely to be taken away. Isn't that alone a cliche? Bring on the "individual" so she can be killed off.

Quote:

---

"...you do not see her as the unique character she was, but rather just as a woman who had sex with women"

---

Isn't this the same guy who wrote a joke about Ellen in an episode, and wrote the girl on girl action line, as well as, the "What kind of lesbians are you" line? Seems maybe he had a little trouble seeing Tara as an "individual" himself.



Kasey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"You should come around here on Halloween,
you'd really see something then...
we all jump off the roof and fly."

Hi, y'all. I'm sorry that my writing isn't as good as the rest of you, but I got a response, I believe, from Drew Z.



I made this snarky comment at TelevisionWithoutPity!:

Quote:

---

Yeah, that Drew Z. made some really "good" comments about the dead/evil lesbian cliche.



Making his own strawman version of the cliche, and then basically saying that the people who made criticisms of the storyline are homophobic, prejudiced, and ignorant with how they handled the characters.



Ironic considering that most of the articles supporting the cliche's existence took great pain to say that ME wasn't homophobic.



But whatever, we're "back to school! Back to cool!"



ETA: I made a mistake. Z, not G.

---

To which I got this reply:

Quote:

---

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, that Drew Z. made some really "good" comments about the dead/evil lesbian cliche.



Making his own strawman version of the cliche, and then basically saying that the people who made criticisms of the storyline are homophobic, prejudiced, and ignorant with how they handled the characters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, superherofan, I did NOT say people who criticized the storyline are homophobic or prejudiced or ignorant. I said





quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in my experience, people who cite the dead lesbian cliche in reference to Tara do not understand the cliche itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



and then I said





quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In characterizing Tara's death as yet another in the string of cliched lesbian deaths, you indicate that you do not see Tara as anything but a lesbian, you do not see her as the unique character she was, but rather just as a woman who had sex with women, and, in doing so, you reveal your own homophobia, your own prejudice and, more than anything else, your own lack of understanding of what we did with that character.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I try, in my postings on this board, to adhere to the rules of civility and polite, intellectual discussion for which this board has long stood, but your post was so sloppy, so inappropriate, that I felt it was important to respond. Criticize the story all you want, I've said many times on this board that I love the back-and-forth of critical discussion, and I do, but I do not love being paraphrased by someone who mischaracterizes my words.



Also, I did not make my own "strawman" version of the cliche, I reported what it actually is, and I described in my original post why the death of Tara served, in fact, the exact opposite purpose of the cliche itself. I suggest renting the film "The Celluloid Closet" or reading the book by Vito Russo on which it was based to familiarize yourself with gay and lesbian history in film and television.

---

To which I replied:

Quote:

---

First off, yes, it sounds to me like you're calling people who criticize the storyline of Willow and Tara as an example of the dead/evil lesbian cliche homophobic, prejudiced, and ignorant of ME's attempt at characterization. And it does to a lot of people who have a problem with the storyline. Especially, with such a loaded word as homophobia. So, if that wasn't your intention, well, a lot of people including myself took it very differently. Are you saying that anyone who see it as a cliche aren't those things, because I really don't see an alternative interpretation? If we see what happened as we do, you say that shows our homophobia, our prejudice, and our ignorance. But then again, I hated Season Six, sans the musical, so what do I know?



Second of all, I disagree completely with your interpretation of the dead/evil lesbian cliche. The cliche is simply that lesbians, mostly couples, tend to die or go evil. That's the cliche, and I've read "Celluloid Closet" and watched the movie several times.



So, I pretty much stand by my assessment. But I don't know how the mods feel about a lengthy argument. So after any further responses you may have, I'd just prefer to take it to email.



ETA: I apologize if I interpreted your comments in a way offensive to you. I assume now that you meant that those who see the cliche have a valid, well thought-out reason behind believing so, even if you disagree with it. And those who differ with you don't have some sort of internalized homophobia and are just too stupid to understand ME's vision. Because the latter opinion is too offensive to believe.

---

I hope I didn't poorly "represent", but it's cool, in a sense, that I got a response.

Edited by: superherofan at: 10/16/02 12:03:52 am

Ok so now this guy is telling ME to read the celluloid closet, ha haha.. does he not know that's like my bible.



YOu know what this guy needs MAILS tons of them. Jane and Drew will hear from me, let's get some addies up .. people.



What pathetic excuses.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Edited by: xita  at: 10/16/02 6:32:57 am

I'm sorry, but his response kind of freaked me out. I mean, geez, how much else has been written that hasn't gotten a whisper from ME. And I keep thinking, did I misinterpret him when he was basically implying those who believed in the cliche were homophobic? And I kept thinking, "Hell no!" And to be chastised about "The Ceulloid Closet" when I've read and seen the movie sooo many times. And the question remains in the movie and the book if the audience will ever accept a homosexual hero who lives.



I apologize if I was "sloppy" and "inappropriate".

www.puk.de/ivanova/toaster_neub.html



The following is part of a statement by Doug Petrie in Sci-Fi Universe, February 21, 2000, that I am quoting from Ivanova's site. (Link above.):

Quote:

---

We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that, so we're more predisposed to have things work out for Willow and Tara(...)The fact that Tara is not a guy may make things work out better, because we can avoid what we feel is this old cliche'.

---

Doug doesn't mention a character's goodness as having any bearing on the fact that linking death with homosexuality is an "old cliche.'" Drew, on the other hand, can spin all he wants about Tara's goodness being a subversion of the cliche'. But Tara's personal qualities aside, the one lasting image most viewers will take away from the end of "Seeing Red," is death immediately following lesbian sex, followed by the grieving partner going off the deep end. And that is the dead/evil lesbian cliche', no matter how some desperate people try to deny it.



And I truly resent a non-lesbian putting forth his own self-serving, face-saving personal interpretation of the lesbian cliche' and trying to tar those who disagree with him with the homophobia brush.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 10/15/02 11:48:31 pm

It's such a lame argument. Historically, many dead evil gay people have been sympathetic. The good person gathers sympathy even in "suicide" especially in suicide. Because a good person couldn't possibly like being gay or deal with it. Think "the children's hour" here. In fact the evil ones can live with it, the good ones couldn't and ended up dead. He doesn't know what he is talking about. I am sure that's the line Joss gave them, "we are subverting a cliche here people. This is a good thing for gay people. We'll kill Tara and because she is good and loved and Warren doesn't shout 'die dyke, die' it will subvert all the cliches and we'll be hailed as visionaries. Our detractors mere homophobes. "

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

It's disturbing to me that Drew feels that he can recognize homophobia better than can those who have actually experienced it in their daily lives.



I know that my perceptions of the world are colored by my own religion, sexual orientation, ethnicities, and social class. So, I figure that if a member of a minority group that I don't happen to belong to tells me that a word, an image, or an action is insensitive, hurtful, or discriminatory, it's my job to listen and try to understand his or her point of view. Because he or she, having experienced prejudice that I haven't, is a far better judge of what's respectful and what's not than I could be.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 10/16/02 12:10:38 am

In a blinding (and rather painful) flash of insight, it finally made sense.



DeNight, whom we were pissed off at, suddenly apologizing.



Greenburg and Espenson, whom we had at least some respect for, suddenly acting like Grade A1 jerks.



The newest episode of Buffy (don't worry Mods, no details on the main board) being so insulting that it had to be deliberate. And it was written by Rebecca Rand Kirshner whom we used to adore.



Mutant Enemy suddenly losing their minds?



No my friends, deliberate beginning to end.



Their are two indisputable facts about Buffy this season:



1. Fans are abandoning the show in droves.



2. The fans who are staying, are splitting into ever smaller and more pissed-off factions.



The solution?



1. The best way to get people to flock back to something that used to be important to them is to suggest it is "under an unreasonable attack".



2. The best way to unite hostile factions is to give them a common "enemy".



Guess who gets to be the "enemy" that is launching an "unreasonable attack"?



They want us to be almost homicide enraged, randomly flinging venom at whomever comes too close.



They want us to saying things without thinking. Things that will damage our reputation.



They want us to seem like a threat.



They want us to unite Buffy fans against ourselves.



They probably wanted this to happen right after Tara's death, this is just a second, less subtle attempt.



And if all this can damage the Trevor Project press release, something that is going to be very bad PR for ME, mores the better.



So what did they get?



A brief surge of anger, then some nice big servings of logic, reason, determination and honest, heart rending pain.



Its been saying many times before, but certainly bears repeating:



KITTENS KICK ASS!!!

I hold my breath and I hang in the balance

Of a city that reels between despair

And delight

"Blue Pariah" by BRJ

Edited by: Blue Pariah at: 10/16/02 12:17:28 am

superhero fan, was this back and forth between you and Drew at the TWOP boards, the Bronze or in private?

Cause if it was at TWOP thats kinda surprising.

The TWOP boards, Buffy, Behind the Scenes Scoobies section.