The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[Ben Varkentine]

At the risk of "me too"-ism, let me just say first of all, Mr. DeKnight, I've been impressed with the first few episodes of "Angel" this year. But I'm almost more so by your apology here (and on the BB). I accept it in the spirit in which I believe it was intended.



I just hope people were listening, and I don't mean us--I know we were. I mean some of the folks at those other boards and one or two of your colleagues who are pretty quick to throw the "homophobe" label around and otherwise attack people who were once your fans.



The damage done to Buffy and its fanbase last year and over the summer may or may not be fixable, but actions like yours are helpful. To all of us, fans and creative team alike. Certainly moreso than those others I mentioned.

Ben Varkentine

"I could go on but what's the use

You can't fight them with songs

But think of this as just
another tiny blow against the Empire


Another blow against the Evil Empire."-Joe Jackson

[Scout]

Steve,



Coming into our home to offer us a personal apology means a great deal to all of us. You obviously seem sincere and you also seem to understand how deeply we are hurting. Knowing we are heard and understood helps accelerate the healing process. Thank you for making that possible.

[Coma123]

Mr DeKnight,

Many others have written far more eloquent things then myself, but I just wanted to add to the thanks for your apology. Its greatly appreciated.

[Anne860]

First of all, thank you for your apology and the courtesy you showed in coming here. As someone who routinely has to pry her foot out of her mouth, I understand how you can hurt people's feelings without meaning to. Making the effort to apologize and even defend the people who criticized you, however, is not so easy, and the fact that you mustered up the courage to do it shows real class.



Secondly, the premiere of Angel was great. I've never watched the show with more than a passing interest, but you kept me in my seat, rewinding the tape to watch the good parts. You even managed to impress Strega, the recapper over at Television Without Pity which, if you know the site and Strega's recaps, is really saying something.



A good job all around, as my Dad says.

[helpful information perha]

For those interested the Drew Z Greenberg comments/cliche debate mentioned back on pgs 6/7 of this thread [The TWOP boards, Buffy, Behind the Scenes Scoobies section.] is still going on. it appears drews goddards gf (also a buffy writer) has gotten in on the thread.

Edited by: helpful information perhaps at: 10/25/02 1:44:36 pm

[AutumnT]

I think it has been established that the person is not a writer's girlfriend and was merely joking. Plus, I think it is best not to drag other boards here. At least that is what the mods keep saying...

Autumn

-----------

BUFFY: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner than after a shift at the Doublemeat.

WILLOW: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day.

[tommo]

Yes, please let's not focus on other boards. It doesn't do any good in the end anyway, and it only brings other people's negativity into our community. Thanks!

You exquisite little tart!" ~ Diana Letharby

[Mr B]

Mr. DeKnight,



You deserve a lot of credit for admitting you handled things badly, and apologizing. Thank you for that it's very much appreciated. Good luck in your future career.

Edited by: Mr B at: 10/27/02 4:21:56 am

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by Nikkii



I'm doing my media coursework on The Lesbian Cliche (hopefully, jus gotta clear it with my teacher) so I was wondering if anyone could give me some other exapmles of where this can be found, as obviously I'm using the Willow/Tara storyline as my main source material



Lotsa Love,

Nikkii

~xXx~

[kyraroc]

Sorry it took me a little while to notice the question - it was a strange weekend.



Anyway, this is obviously a very partial list, but I hope it's a start. I tried to include selections from a few different forms of media.



Television shows that have featured dead or evil lesbians include:



Babylon 5 - recurring major character Talia Winters has her personality wiped, and is then killed and dissected.

Northern Exposure - one episode character Cicely dies in her lover Rosyln's arms. Roslyn is later reported to have died in the Spanish Civil War.

Law and Order - one episode character Alicia Milford murders her girlfriend Julie Cade. In another set of episodes, Mrs. Janaway rapes her 14 year old daughter and causes her death by toxic shock.

ER - Shannon Wallace, distraught over being gay, parks her car on train tracks, causing dozens of deaths. Later falsely accuses lesian doctor of molesting her. In another episode, a delusional lesbian stabs and kills the dorm mate she has fallen in love with.

Ally McBeal - Two lesbian lovers murder the husband of one and blame it on a retarded man

NYPD Blue - Abby Sullivan's girlfriend Kathy is murdered by an ex-girlfriend of Abby's



Movies include:

Basic Instinct - Sharon Stone's character is a murderer. Her girlfriend is insane and ends up dead.

Heavenly Creatures - Two lesbian teenagers murder the mother of one of them

Lost and Delirious - a lesbian leaps to her death after slowly going mad

Mulholland Drive - a lesbian has her ex-girlfriend murdered and then turns a gun on herself

High Art - lesbian finds true love and then promptly OD's on heroin

The Hunger - lesbian vampire Miriam Blaylock is locked in a coffin to suffer for all eternity after seducing a former straght woman

Windows - lesbian Andrea Glassen hires a man to rape a straight woman with whom she has fallen in love

Cleopatra Jones - "Mommy", a lesbian drug dealer, is shot and killed

Theater of Blood - Meredith Merridew is murdered

The Conformist - Anna Quadri is shot to death

The Fox - Jill Benford is killed by a falling tree immediately after lesbian sex

From Russia With Love - Rosa Klebb is murdered

Walk on the Wild Side - Jo's attraction to a straight woman results in the woman's death and Jo's going to prison

The Children's Hour - Martha Dobie hangs herself after realizing she is a lesbian

Caged - Evelyn Harper is stabbed to death

Dracula's Daughter - Countess Alesca is staked through the heart

Madchen in Uniform - Manuela attempts suicide

Pandora's Box - Countess Geschwitz is beaten to death



Other movies that I know less about, but have seen listed as examples of this, include Gia, Foxfire, Butterfly Kiss, Sister My Sister, Bound, Blood Thirsty, and Nowhere.



Pulp novels include:



Evans, John. Halo in Brass.

Hired by an old Nebraskan couple to locate their daughter, private dick Paul Pine stumbles upon a trail of murdered lesbians, including a few living as men. A police detective comments, at the end of the novel, that at least the people that died "didn't matter" (although Pine does give the guy a bit of flack over that.)



Starr, Leda. All at Once.

Coral Valdez, a self-professed "creature of pleasure", escapes from a small town to NYC, prostituting herself to men and women alike along the way. She falls for Tessa, a madame for lesbian hookers, and works for her once she gets to the city. Coral meets Bunny in a bar, but doesn't take their relationship seriously, and uses Bunny as an outlet for her personal degradations - until Bunny kills her in a fit of jealousy, just before Coral can marry this old man she met "on the job". The sex is degrading and sometimes violent. The story is told in flashbacks during Coral's dying moments.



Cassill, R. V. (Ronald Verlin). Dormitory Women.

If Millie wants to fit in at Blackhawk University, she'll need to overcome her problems before her deep need for revenge overcomes her with tragic consequences. This novel has many of the hallmarks of the genre: orphans, rape, molestation, institutionalization, murder, promiscuity, and women in group living situations.



Marr, Reed. Women without Men.

A "true story", this time about women behind bars in Kennetank prison. The excellent cover copy describes the evil Queen who spins her web to trap the other hapless inmates. (This protagonist of this novel is a sympthetic, gentle lesbian, by the way.)



Hope that helps!



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

Edited by: kyraroc at: 11/12/02 11:14:42 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

I've seen "Bound" and don't think it should be included--not to give away the ending, but it definitely doesn't involve death or madness for any lesbian...

Ben Varkentine



Sig quote pulled for research and development

[infinitelight]

Thanks for the list, KR. Food for thought.



Edited for talking too much, thinking too little.

Edited by: infinitelight at: 11/12/02 3:06:10 pm

[kyraroc]

Ben - I found out what I could about "Bound" after your post, and it sounds like a movie I would definitely enjoy (especially, apparently, if I can get my hands on the uncut European version, which has been highly recommended to me.) I'm probably going to rent it, and until I do, I'm talking, as I said in my last post, about a movie I've only heard about, so I could be wrong about anything I say here. But although I think I'd like the movie, and the lesbians are clearly the heroes and the ending involves no lesbian death . . . both lesbian characters are criminals, and one of them ends the movie a murderer. I really think this could definitely be arguably included in the "evil lesbian" category, even if both the movie and the audience are on their side. Anyway, I think it should definitely be left in the rough list, for people to make of it whatever they choose.



-- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[xita]

Bound is amazing, I think it's cliche busting. Then again, they really tried not only to bust those cliches but to hire a lesbian consultant to get all the lesbian things just so.

-------------------------------

Buffy?

Let's change it, the Discovery channel has koala bears.

[Diebrock]

Yes, both lesbian characters are criminals but then everyone is a criminal in this movie. That is their "society".

And one of them kills in the end. That's true. But with everything going on it was a "her or him" thing. I always saw it as clearly self defense. Because if she hadn't, he would have killed her.

There is no gravity, the earth just sucks
ME...Wie du mir, so ich dir

[kyraroc]

After researching a couple more of the movies I didn't know much about, I've decided to take "The Color Purple" off the list. I'm quite frankly baffled as to why anyone would choose to include that in a list of dead/evil lesbian cliche movies. Anyone have any idea why it was in one?



I was also surprised to see "Thelma and Louise" in such a list, since, well, they weren't lesbians.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[xita]

Little update:



Madchen in Uniform - Manuela attempts suicide



Aren't there a couple of versions of this and in one she does commit suicide?





Other movies that I know less about, but have seen listed as examples of this, include Gia - OD dead.



Foxfire - hmm... I don't think so.



Butterfly Kiss - isane, murdering, unhealthy attachment



Sister My Sister - Oh yes, incest, unhealthy attachment, MURDER!

-------------------------------

Buffy?

Let's change it, the Discovery channel has koala bears.

[emma peel]

Bound was a terrific film that came out of nowhere, IMO. Great performances by Gina Gershon and Jennifer Tilly.

Janice

P.S. Did anyone see the previews of next week's Crossing Jordon? I believe Mariel Hemingway plays a lesbian who's lover dies/fakes her death/suicide-something like that. I was so surprised that I didn't pay as much attention as I would have liked. Mariel Hemingway-still yummy after all these years.

[kbk3022]

Yeah I saw the previews to Crossing Jordan too. But I didn't catch everything that went on in it either.



Here is a line from the next episode's preview:

"OSCAR NOMINEE MARIEL HEMINGWAY GUEST-STARS AS OUTSPOKEN LESBIAN TALK-SHOW HOST WHOSE LOVER IS FOUND MURDERED"



I'm not sure what the deal is going to be with this story, but I'll be watching to find out.



Kasey

[urnofosiris]

Mwah, for some odd reason I'm stuck with that Queen song "another one bites the dust" in my head. Normally I love that song, but not when reading this thread.

[Epicurus]

I hope I’m not out of line in asking a few questions here as I don’t mean to start an argument and I’m 100% for this thread and what it represents.



With a show like Crossing Jordan whose basic premise revolves around a medical examiner, how does it fall under the lesbian cliché when almost every new character that is introduces to the show is in some way involved in plots dealing with deaths or murders or suicides? Is the scenario in which the murder takes place relevant in considering it part of the cliché?



It’s like, if I read tomorrow that Six Feet Under was going to feature a lesbian character that comes to the Fisher’s funeral home asking them to host a wake for her dead partner, I wouldn’t think anything of it.

Am I wrong to think that scenarios like the above SFU plot wouldn’t fall under the cliché because the show is centered around death?

I guess what I really want to know is...

Is every single lesbian character on TV (or in movies) that ends up dead/evil/insane etc automatically part of the cliché?

[kbk3022]

Well, it's like I said in my post, I don't know what the story is going to be on Crossing Jordan. I wouldn't consider having a dead lesbian on a show about dead people a part of the cliché. However, I would probably consider it cliché if the lover is the one who murdered her. Which, for some reason, I got the feeling that this was the way the episode was going to go. I don't know though, maybe I'm just being pessimistic.





Kasey

Edited by: kbk3022  at: 11/13/02 9:15:24 pm

[urnofosiris]

Epicurus, as long as 99% of the stories being told somehow end up with dead, dying, miserable or evil lesbians it is a cliche to me, even on a show that deals with dead, dying, miserable and evil people (sounds like BtVS)

As soon as there actually would be equal representation it would cease to be a cliche, even on shows like Crossing Jordan or any (crime) show not all people we see, whether they be extras or regulars, end up dead, dying, miserable or evil . If anyone were to ask if I´d rather not see any LGBT characters appear on tv show at all then, I´d say no if the only outcome would be them ending up dead, dying, evil, miserable. I'd rather see them alive, living, happy and good, if only in 50% of the cases.

Edited by: DrG at: 11/14/02 4:41:34 am

[kyraroc]

Epicurus, that's a question that's occurred to me as well. However, after giving it some thought, I feel that in order to answer it there are a few more questions that need to be asked:



1) Why do lesbians seem so much more likely to show up on shows where they are likely to die or be miserable?



In other words, why do lesbians show up on cop dramas, soap operas, and crime shows so much more often than they show up on comedies or "light" dramas? Does this reflect an industry-wide bias that lesbians should only be introduced if they are doomed? Or an industry-wide bias that lesbians are too controversial a subject to be handled in any light except a serious, painful way, which de facto amounts to the same thing?



As with Buffy, the cliche can never be taken simply within the context of the individual show, but within the medium as a whole. If every lesbian who shows up dies because lesbians only ever appear on shows where everyone dies, that means something significant.



2) Even on shows where lesbians die because "everyone dies", are they really being given equal treatment?



Presumably, most shows do have a stable cast of characters who live, and many routinely introduce minor characters who are not necessarily a victim, survivor, or perpetrator, but have some other role in the story. Are any of these characters ever lesbians? Are these characters lesbians in at least the same proportion to the apparent population in the context of the show as the ones who show up dead, grieving, or evil? Or do lesbians only ever appear as victims or villains?



Even on a show where most people show up to kill or be killed, if lesbians only *ever* show up to kill or be killed, there is almost certainly something disproportionate going on.





This does not necessarily mean that all shows on which a lesbian dies are necessarily part of the cliche. But I think at this point shows which kill off their lesbian characters deserve to be asked some hard questions, both about their function in the industry as a whole and the way they really treat their characters in general.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[Epicurus]

“I´d rather not see any LGBT characters appear on tv show at all then, I´d say no if the only outcome would be them ending up dead, dying, evil, miserable”



I totally agree with you DrG. I mean, no representations of lesbians has got to be better then 100% of the representations being negative.



And good points kyraroc. The more I think about the “it’s to be expected because it’s on a crime show” idea, the more I think it sounds like something Joss Whedon would say.



I guess when it all comes down to it a dead lesbian is still just a dead lesbian.

[urnofosiris]

Well darn, I think I made a grammatical boo boo there. Technically it should have been yes instead of no:



If anyone were to ask if I´d rather not see any LGBT characters appear on tv show at all then, I´d say yes if the only outcome would be them ending up dead, dying, evil, miserable.



Or more clearly: no, I'd rather not see any LGBT characters if all they do is end up dead, dying, evil or miserable.



*Harrumph* I need to lay off complex sentences with yesses and nos in them, too confusing. Carry on, nothing to see here. Really. I am giving myself a headache.

Quote:

---

And good points kyraroc. The more I think about the “it’s to be expected because it’s on a crime show” idea, the more I think it sounds like something Joss Whedon would say.

---

Yeah, that is just the thing Joss Whedon and his supporters keep harping on about. "This is BtVS, no couple ever has a happy ending and bad things happen to all characters. Oh but we still are a completely original show, we supposedly avoid all cliches, except our own."



and lesbian cliches

[sam7777]

Agreed. On "Crossing Jordan" the gay character could be a police collegue or friend rather than the criminal or corpse. On 6 feet under, the gay character could be the relative of the deceased. An interesting storyiling could be built around the gay character not knowing whether or not to mourn a relative that never accepted their gay life style. The gay characters don't always have to be the ones who are dead or evil.



I also find "Bound" to be cliche busting. Granted the two characters are criminals but they are not evil and all the characters are criminals in the movie more or less. The ending turns the usual lesbian fate on it's head IMHO.

Quote:

---

I´d rather not see any LGBT characters appear on tv show at all then, I´d say no if the only outcome would be them ending up dead, dying, evil, miserable

---

I disagree. I'd rather see LGBT characters appear on tv shows and be represented as they are in real life. No gay characters just renders them invisible or closetted. Not only must we push for more gay characters but also for positive portrayals of them. I would never accept seeing no LGBT characters any more than I would accept only seeing them up dead, dying, evil, miserable. Complaining about negative portrayals is important as is complaining about no portrayals. We should accept neither. If we must drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century, then so be it. They will discover the rich stories that they have rarely told about LGBT characters and we will all be richer for it.

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 11/15/02 4:28:54 pm

[Epicurus]

DrG:

Ok, lol, now I’m all confused as I was trying agree with your proclamation about not wanting to see every single lesbian dead/evil etc yet that’s not how (as you show above) your original sentence read. Anyway I knew what ya meant... I think.



edited to add:



sam7777 said:

Complaining about negative portrayals is important as is complaining about no portrayals.

For me, given the choose between either of those choices I'd pick no portrayals. Not that I wouldn't complain about not having lesbians on TV but I'd rather fight the nonexistance of LGBT characters than the negative representations of LGBT characters.

Edited by: Epicurus at: 11/15/02 4:38:20 pm

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

---

posted by Sam7777

I disagree. I'd rather see LGBT characters appear on tv shows and be represented as they are in real life. No gay characters just renders them invisible or closetted.

---

Actually you are not disagreeing with me because I agree with you. Of course I would rather see LGBT characters represented as they are in real life. That would mean seeing the occasional dead, dying, evil or miserable character, but we would see many more alive, living, good and happy LGBT characters.



In my previous post I was answering a hypothetical question (that I actually have seen posted) by people who argue we should not complain about what happened to WT (or other gay characters) as at least they are being shown on TV. Well, I am with Epicurus. I would rather not see any on tv if the only outcome is a bad one. I think that is more damaging than total invisibility even. I would rather argue to get fair representation starting from scratch than having to undo a long lasting negative image that has been established ad nauseam. I think by now I am well aware that lesbians can die, be evil, be unhappy, get bashed, and if we are very lucky be happy for a few years before those things happen. Hurrah. I really needed to be told that. Over and over and over again. Heaven forbid I should forget.



Edited to add: To be clear, I am not arguing things change from bad to invisible btw, that would be pointless, I want fair and equal representation. I was just countering an old argument of why we should not complain at all.

Edited by: DrG at: 11/16/02 2:27:15 pm

[Zahir al Daoud]

JMHO



I'm uncomfortable with the idea that "no lesbians must die or be evil" rule. Yeah, it is a cliche generally--and a vicious one at that--at the same time the idea of one sweeping generality taking on the moral force of a commandment really bothers me.



Now, I've not been watching Crossing Jordon so I can't judge that show. But somebody brought up a good point--namely, are any lesbians NOT murdered, involved with someone murdered, or having committed a murder?



Take Law and Order. Over the course of many seasons now, we've seen gays portrayed as both victim and killer, as well as wrongfully accused murderer--not too surprising, given the nature of the show. But we've also seen gays as witnesses and bystanders. And likewise, we've seen a viewpoint on the part of the show's creators that prejudice against gays on the par with racial prejudice and anti-semitism. (Paranthetically, it does seem to me the L&O's producers do remain neutral or balanced on other issues, like the death penalty)



On the one hand, its a good sign that being gay is no longer code for "this character is bad, don't care." Yet on the other, if lesbians primarily remain as titilation value, then there's clearly a long way to go (even if the journey is well and truly begun).



Having run out of hands, I'll shut up now.

"GOD created Man in his own image. Man, being a gentleman, returned the courtesy." -Voltaire