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The Politics Thread - Read the First Post

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Re: One Average American Opinion

Postby 4WiccanLuv » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:32 pm

Quote:
"Lets be careful about how we talk about each other's country."




Dully noted DrG. Like I've said, I've read this entire thread and some of my comments came from an emotionally charged place in response to post after post demonizing the United States. It is very upsetting to read about how arrogant we are, how we want to rule the world, convert all to our way of life for their own good, for crying out loud, President Bush being compared to Hitler…I reacted, I apologize to any I may have offended.



Diebrock, I don't recall saying that Germans are cowards. That was how you chose to interpret my statement. I merely said that when it got tough, they bailed. I was referring to UN Resolution 1441. I should have made that clear, my bad. 1441 called for Saddam/Iraq to disarm within 30 days or face serious consequences. All nations unanimously voted for this resolution, clearly knowing that SH was a threat and yet they were not willing to enforce said consequences. Again, I apologize if this upset you, but that's how some Americans feel about it.



BTW, we are aware of all that Germany has provided in way of help in the fight against global terrorism. I realize your government is looking out for your country's best interest as is ours.



I will try to respond to the rest of the replies to my post when I am free from my work day.



Linda



_____________


"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty." - John F. JFK

4WiccanLuv
 


Re: One Average American Opinion

Postby urnofosiris » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:51 pm

4WiccanLuv, I know you made every effort to state your thoughts carefully. It isn't easy in such an emotionally charged discussion and English isn't the first language for some of us, so that may make phrasing things or interpreting them a bit difficult as well at times. At least I find it difficult, but I think so far we have all managed pretty well, I was just being cautious. I think when we criticize our own countries we can be a little more outspoken, if that makes sense, if not, ignore me. :p



-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 3/25/03 12:52:32 pm
urnofosiris
 


Re: One Average American Opinion

Postby Diebrock » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:00 pm

First, Linda let me say that it's often your fellow Americans who are the most outspoken against American politics, not just here on the Kitten but also on several mailing lists I'm on. I think us foreigners are very careful most of the time because we don't want to appear anti-american or like we want to attack America. Like Garfield said "I think when we criticize our own countries we can be a little more outspoken" :smash



Quote:
1441 called for Saddam/Iraq to disarm within 30 days or face serious consequences. All nations unanimously voted for this resolution, clearly knowing that SH was a threat and yet they were not willing to enforce said consequences.


I think, the crux of the problem is that they voted unanimously because they compromised and compromised in the wording until everyone who had a say could agree with exactly this statement.



What the hell are serious consequences, anyway?



For the parties who wanted war (who wanted a resolution which clearly stated war as the consequence of Iraq not obeying) serious consequences meant also the option of war. That is why the Americans think they have the UN authorisation, which is the only way that a war of aggression can be legal under international law.

For the other parties who were trying to find a way around war, serious consequences didn't mean war as an automatism. That's why there was talk of a second resolution that would have stated it clearly.



What I mean to say is that countries such as Germany and France (who were against a war before the first resolution) would not have voted for the resolution if they had had to interpret serious consequences as war; which is WHY it was worded that way in the first place. It's nuts really. :

I think it's up in the air. But the majority of the leading German international lawyers (is that a word? I mean profs and such who specialize in international law) are of the opinion that Res 1441 is not enough to legitimate the war. And if that should really be the case then (as I've stated before) the German government has already violated our constitution by granting overflight rights. Because that would be aiding in waging a war of aggression.



When it got tough, they bailed because they were not willing to enforce said consequences would be convincing to me if the consequences had been clearly stated (eg, or face military action) in the Res that everybody voted for. But that was not the case and so everyone could interpret "serious consequences" how it suited them best. Germany, France, Russia and others chose to not interpret it as war. They never voted for an authorization of war and so didn't bail out of enforcing the consequences. They never agreed to (the American interpretation of) them, in the first place.



I hope that made some sense. :peace





_____________________

"MURDERERS! Remember Orca!!! Free Willy!!!" Yun-kyung bellowed. "The shark in Jaws was just misunderstood!" - Castaway
I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Diebrock
 


American Imperialism

Postby darkmagicwillow » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:53 pm

My posts aren't attacking the U.S., though they do present objections to its actions in starting this war. There is an important difference. While I have a high respect for the founding principles of this country, I think that many of them have been abandoned over time. Some of these abandonments, such as the elimination of the compromises over slavery, have been good, while others, such as the rising power of the federal government, in particular the executive branch, at the expense of our individual rights and freedoms are gravely dangerous.



I think we would better understand how our actions impact the world and why most of the world feels the way it does about us if we acknowledged that the U.S. is an imperial power. However, I'm not surprised that Americans don't consider themselves to be citizens of an imperial power, as the citizens of such a state rarely do. While America's huge expenditures on the military and hundreds of thousands of troops overseas at all times clearly indicate an aggressive stance, Americans rarely see it that way. But how can anyone from the outside not see it as a potential threat, especially given the American history of using that force?



The Roman Republic didn't consider itself to be an imperial power either, and though it spent hugely on its military, it claimed to fight only defensive wars. Yet somehow the Romans managed to conquer the Mediterranean world. Its new territories were nominally controlled by independent kings or tribal leaders, instead of being a direct part of the Roman state, until well after the republic fell and the empire was founded. There were benefits to Roman rule too, as the republic also brought the benefit of its civilization to these lands, with its tremendous skills in building and its republican style of city government.



19th century citizens of the U.K. didn't want to rule the world. They would have pointed at their elected government to show that they weren't an imperial power, and many of them would have said that the U.K. had the best of reasons for the wars it engaged in. However, Britain certainly was an imperial power in the 19th century, whether or not its citizens believed that, and like the U.S., its foreign policy was often aggressive and to the benefit of specific economic interests at home.



For example, India was actually conquered and owned by the East India Company, not the U.K. The expensive occupation was eventually turned over to the British government after the Sepoy mutiny, which let the company have the benefits but not the costs of ruling India. The British always had a moral reason for the annexation of the various small Indian states, and it often was that the ruling prince was an evil man who didn't care for the welfare of his subjects.



Similarly, the conquest of southern Africa was carried out on behalf of Cecil Rhodes so he could have access to the diamands and gold there. Corporate and personal economic interests have frequently directed national policies in their favor throughout history, and such direction has usually not been to the benefit of the country as a whole.



These two examples illustrate that imperialism is not always as black and white as conquering another country. Control is usually established economically at first, then it insinuates itself into politics, and is often reinforced by a military presence. This control is used to gain special privileges, such as allowing a foreign country to own land or operate its businesses or exemption from normal rates of taxation. There is no need to extend the control any further if everything that is wanted is obtained without occupation, which is generally costly and difficult to maintain permanently. Thus the fact that the U.S. does not want the expense and danger of permanently occupying an Arab nation like Iraq does not negate the charge of imperialism.



--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/25/03 7:12:04 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby Kieli » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:10 pm

I've brought up the Roman comparison in the past (at other boards) and was thoroughly flamed for doing so. I'm happy to see someone else get the connection as well as add some others I had not thought about. Excellent post.






Time flies by when the Devil drives.

Edited by: Kieli at: 3/25/03 8:34:06 pm
Kieli
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby lauriebear » Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:03 pm

I’d also like an my 2 cents on how the US is becoming of has become an imperial power:



In 1992 Paul Wolfowitz wrote a little controversial diddy on the defense of the US. After the cold war and the first gulf war ended and America emerged as the only superpower in the world, it was time to develop a new foreign policy. Written by Wolfowitz stated in a nutshell:

Quote:
Wolfowitz believed containment was an old idea, a relic of the cold war. America should talk loudly and carry a big stick and use it before weapons of mass destruction could be used. And if America had to act alone, so be it


Also:

Quote:
"The first draft said that the United States would be prepared to preempt the use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons by any other nation, even, the document said, where our interests are otherwise not engaged. That is to say, in a war somewhere else that's not about us. It spoke of punishing or retaliating for that use, but it also said preempt. This is the first tim




The US basically wanted to keep it’s position it found itself at the end of the cold war.

WE are the only power and we want to keep it that way. Our military might, will dissuade any possible enemies of attacking, and if we see a threat we will take it out, before it happens…even if that threat will materialize 4, 5 years down the road



Anyway, this was "leaked" to the press rejected by the public and disavowed by the Bush I administration at the time. Cheney was sent back to rewrite parts of it.. Clinton’s foreign policy was based on globization and multilateral institutions and also rejected this line of thinking



Fast Forward 9 years post-9-11 era and Wolfowitz’s doctrine is back up and running. Bush introduced this thinking in his Axis of Evil speech at the state of the union. In fact the “National Security Strategy” put out by the White House, is very similar to the Wolfowitz’s doctrine. The only difference, the public now accepts in light of the fear of recent terrorist attacks.



So does America, my country, want to rule the world….yes, in my opinion. This doctrine screams global dominance. Case in point, Afghanistan. The man we put in place there was a former higher up of Unicol(?) a oil company. Has Afghanistan begun restructuring a democracy..um no, but there is deal for a US oil pipeline through the region.



So after the war is the US going to put in place a Democratic institution? Only time will tell. But one things for certain, whatever gov. is put into place there, it WILL be friendly to the US.

The quotes used are from Fronline’s “The long road to war” a documentary that aired on PBS.



lauriebear
 


old adage

Postby BeatNikJackie7777 » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:09 pm

I find this thread very compelling, but at the same time the old adage there are two sides to every coin rings true and in any debate it pays to consider all aspects of the issue at hand. While many argue that this war is all about oil for the US, I have to differ for various reasons. Simply put, if the US were solely interested in Iraqi oil, there would be a million easier (and less costly ways) for us to get it. My question then becomes, while it may very well be the case that oil is a definite incentive for the US, what about some countries who oppose the war? Frankly the US is not the only place in the world that uses oil for every day use...its a hot commodity everywhere...how is oil a motive for certain countries that oppose the war? (federalist papers: Men (all human beings) are governed by their own self-interest.)



Secondly, as far as the US "taking over," the fact is, in way it already has. The comparison of the US with the roman empire is flawed in that it ignores the US' true reach. This war aside, the US is not generally millitaristically imperialistic, but economically imperialistic. When I last took economics (this was four years ago the figures might have changed), US GDP accounted for 30% of the world's economy. Thats a staggering number when you consider the number of countries in the world. When the roman empire fell, it lost control of all it once had. The US economy, however, is woven into the overall economy of the world, and make no mistake...if God forbid, the US were no longer powerful, many countries would go down with it, because it would be economically disastrious for the world, not just the US.



I'm still unsure about the war, because I think I need more information before I make judgment, but even if I was opposed to it, I would never goes as far as to say I was ashamed to be an american. On the contrary, this country has given me every opportunity, and it gave my parents the freedom they fled their home for. Its certainly not a perfect nation, but then again no nation is. The US is my home, and it always has been and will be, because it shapes who I am. I feel immensely proud to be american, in spite of our mistakes (which every nation makes as well), because I think its a natural human reaction to feel an affinity to the places we were raised. At the end of the day, I could never be what Thomas Payne would call a "sunshine patriot." That of course doesnt mean following blindly. It means recognizing your nation is not perfect, and life is rarely simple, and sticking through the good times and the bad. Anyway, thats just my two cents. Thanks for letting me get that all off my shoulders :peace :



BeatNikJackie7777
 


How to Take Back America

Postby DianaBouvier99 » Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:24 pm

Please delete if off-topic



www.guerrillanews.com/war...c1303.html



Marching in the streets is important work, but wouldn't we have greater success if we also took control of the United States government?



It's vital to point out right-wing-slanted reporting in the corporate media, but isn't it also important to seize enough political power in Washington to enforce anti-trust laws to break up media monopolies?





And how are progressives - most standing on the outside of government, looking in - to deal with oil wars, endemic corporate cronyism, slashed environmental regulations, corporate-controlled voting machines, the devastation of America's natural areas, the fouling of our air and waters, and an administration that daily gives the pharma, HMO, banking, and insurance industries whatever they want regardless of how many people are harmed?





This lack of political power is a crisis others have faced before. We should learn from their experience.





After the crushing defeat of Barry Goldwater in 1964, a similar crisis faced a loose coalition of gun lovers, abortion foes, southern segregationists, Ayn Rand libertarians, proto-Moonies, and those who feared immigration within and communism without would destroy the America they loved. Each of these various groups had tried their own "direct action" tactics, from demonstrations to pamphleteering to organizing to fielding candidates. None had succeeded in gaining mainstream recognition or affecting American political processes. If anything, their efforts instead had led to their being branded as special interest or fringe groups, which further diminished their political power.





So the conservatives decided not to get angry, but to get power.





Led by Joseph Coors and a handful of other ultra-rich funders, they decided the only way to seize control of the American political agenda was to infiltrate and take over one of the two national political parties, using their own think tanks like the Coors-funded Heritage Foundation to mold public opinion along the way. Now they regularly get their spokespeople on radio and television talk shows and newscasts, and write a steady stream of daily op-ed pieces for national newspapers. They launched an aggressive takeover of Dwight Eisenhower's "moderate" Republican Party, opening up the "big tent" to invite in groups that had previously been considered on the fringe. Archconservative neo-Christians who argue the Bible should replace the Constitution even funded the startup of a corporation to manufacture computer-controlled voting machines, which are now installed across the nation. And Reverend Moon took over The Washington Times newspaper and UPI.





Their efforts, as we see today, have borne fruit, as Kevin Phillips predicted they would in his prescient 1969 book "The Emerging Republican Majority," and as David Brock so well documents in his book "Blinded By The Right."





But the sweet victory of the neoconservatives in capturing control of the Republican Party, and thus of American politics, has turned bitter in the mouths of the average American and humans around the world. Soaring deficits, the evisceration of Social Security, "voluntary" pollution controls, war for oil, stacking federal benches with right-wing ideologues, bellicose and nationalist foreign policy, and the handing over of much of the infrastructure of governance to multinational corporate campaign donors has brought a vast devastation to the nation, nearly destroyed the entrepreneurial American dream, and caused the rest of the world to view us with shock and horror.





Thus, many progressives are suggesting that it's time for concerned Americans to reclaim Thomas Jefferson's Democratic Party. It may, in fact, be our only short-term hope to avoid a final total fascistic takeover of America and a third world war.





"But wait!" say the Greens and Progressives and left-leaning Reform Party members. "The Democrats have just become weaker versions of the Republicans!"





True enough, in many cases. And it isn't working for them, because, as Democrat Harry Truman said, "When voters are given a choice between voting for a Republican, or a Democrat who acts like a Republican, they'll vote for the Republican every time." (And, history shows, voters are equally uninterested in Republicans who act like Democrats.)





Alternative parties have an important place in American politics, and those in them should continue to work for their strength and vitality. They're essential as incubators of ideas and nexus points for activism. Those on the right learned this lesson well, as many groups that at times in the past had fielded their own candidates are now still intact but have also become powerful influencers of the Republican Party. Similarly, being a Green doesn't mean you can't also be a Democrat.





This is not a popular truth.





There's a long list of people who didn't like it - Teddy Roosevelt, H. Ross Perot, John Anderson, Pat Buchanan, Ralph Nader - but nonetheless the American constitution was written in a way that only allows for two political parties. Whenever a third party emerges, it's guaranteed to harm the party most closely aligned to it.





This was the result of a well-intentioned accident that most Americans fail to understand when looking at the thriving third, fourth, and fifth parties of democracies such as Germany, India, or Israel. How do they do it? And why can't we have third parties here?





The reason is because in America - unlike most other modern democracies - we have regional "winner take all" types of elections, rather than proportional representation where the group with, say, 30 percent of the vote, would end up with 30 percent of the seats in government. It's a critical flaw built into our system, so well identified in Robert A. Dahl's brilliant book "How Democratic Is the American Constitution?"





When the delegates assembled in Philadelphia in 1787 to craft a constitution, republican democracy had never before been tried anywhere in what was known as "the civilized world." There were also, at that moment, no political parties, and "father of the Constitution" James Madison warned loudly in Federalist #10 against their ever emerging.





In part, Madison issued his warning because he knew that the system they were creating would, in the presence of political parties, rapidly become far less democratic. In the regional winner-take-all type of elections the Framers wrote into the Constitution, the loser in a two-party race - even if s/he had fully 49.9 percent of the vote - would end up with no voice whatsoever. And the combined losers in a 3- or more-party race could even be the candidates or parties whose overall position was most closely embraced by the majority of the people.





The best solution to this unfairness, in 1787, was to speak out against the formation of political parties ("factions"), as Madison did at length and in several venues. But within a decade of the Constitution's ratification, Jefferson's split with Adams had led to the emergence of two strong political parties, and the problems Madison foresaw began and are with us to this day.





This is particularly problematic in presidential elections. H. Ross Perot's participation in the 1992 election drew enough votes away from the elder George Bush that Bill Clinton won without a true majority. Similarly, Ralph Nader's participation in the 2000 election drew enough votes away from Al Gore that it was easy for the Supreme Court and Jeb Bush to deflect media notice away from Florida's illegal vote-rigging in the pre-election purging of the voter rolls and thus select George W. Bush as President.





Conservative activists recognized this inherent flaw in the electoral system of the United States and decided to do something about it, recruiting Ronald Reagan and forming his infamous "kitchen cabinet." They took over the Republican Party and then successfully seized control of the government of the United States of America. As we can see by comparing documents from the 1990s Project For A New American Century with today's war in Iraq, these once-marginalized conservative ideologues are the real power behind Bush's throne.





Liberals weren't so practically minded. Instead of funding think tanks to influence public opinion, subsidizing radio and TV talk show hosts nationwide, and working to take over the Democratic Party, many left to create their own parties while others gave up on mainstream politics altogether. The remaining Democrats were caught in the awkward position of having to try to embrace the same corporate donors as the Republicans, although they weren't anywhere near as successful as Republicans because they hadn't (and haven't) so fully sold out to corporate and wealthy interests.





We see the result in races across the nation, such as my state of Vermont. In the 2002 election for Governor and Lieutenant Governor, the people who voted for the Democratic and Progressive candidates constituted a clear majority. Nonetheless, the Republican candidates became Governor and Lieutenant Governor with 45 percent and 41 percent of the vote respectively because each had more votes than his Democratic or Progressive opponents alone. (Example: Republican Brian Dubie - 41%; Democrat Peter Shumlin - 32%; Progressive Anthony Pollina - 25%. The Republican "won.")





Similarly, Republicans have overtly used third-party participation on the left to their advantage. In a July 12, 2002 story in the Washington Post titled "GOP Figure Behind Greens Offer, N.M. Official Says," Post writer Thomas B. Edsall noted that: "The chairman of the Republican Party of New Mexico said yesterday he was approached by a GOP figure who asked him to offer the state Green Party at least $100,000 to run candidates in two contested congressional districts in an effort to divide the Democratic vote."





The Republicans well understand - and carefully use - the fact that in the American electoral system a third-party candidate will always harm the major-party candidate with whom s/he is most closely aligned.





The Australians solved this problem in the last decade by instituting nationwide instant run-off voting (IRV), a system that is making inroads in communities across the United States. There are also efforts to reform our electoral system along the lines of other democratic nations, instituting proportional representation systems such as first proposed by John Stuart Mill in 1861 and now adopted by virtually every democracy in the world except the US, Australia, Greece, the United Kingdom, and Canada.





These are good and important efforts for the long-term future of American democracy. But they won't happen in time to influence the 2004 elections, and we're facing a crisis right now. A few Democratic stalwarts survive who may oppose Bush on the national stage, but while the rest of us fixated on the war, neo-cons are creeping on cat's paws into the very heart of Jefferson's Party.





Thus, the best immediate solution to advance the progressive agenda is for progressives to join and take back the Democratic Party, in the same way conservatives seized control of the Republican Party.





After writing the first draft of this article, just as the first 2003 attack of Baghdad began, I thought about how the Democratic Party could change if most of the protesters in the streets were to join the Democratic Party and run for leadership positions in their local town or county. In short order, it could become a powerful force for progressive principles and democracy in America and the world, maybe even in time to influence the 2004 election.





So, I called the Democratic headquarters in my home state of Vermont.





"Sign me up!" I said to the startled young man who answered the phone.





"What?" he said, taken aback by my enthusiasm.





"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore," I said, standing and waving my arm as I talked on the phone. "We have to stop the right-wingers from ripping up our constitution, despoiling our earth, and turning America into a fascist state! Sign me up!"





"Are you a Democrat?" he said.





"Can I be a progressive Democrat?"





"Sure!" he said.





"Then I'm also a Democrat now!"





He chuckled, and said. "We're getting a lot of calls like this."





He took my contact information, and gave me the name of my county's Party leader. I told him to put me on the list for future fundraising events, to let me know how and when I could run for local Party leadership, and how I could participate on a regular basis in the decision-making processes of "my" local Democratic Party.





An hour after that call, I received an email characteristic of so many I get these days.





"I've never been so depressed in my entire life," the correspondent, an attorney and longtime progressive activist wrote. "Bush is completely ignoring us. My nation, using the same rationale Germany did in the 1930s, has just gone to war against a nation that did not attack it, and my president has declared himself a military dictator. Every time we announce peace marches, they raise the 'threat level' so they can keep us away from government buildings or use force to prevent us from marching. I've lost all hope."





A few minutes later, another old friend and activist wrote that her "heart was heavy and tears came easily." A flood of other emails arrived after the publication of my most recent article on Common Dreams, and all but one expressed despair, fear, or panic.





So I've started answering them by saying:





"The nation I love is confronting a crisis no smaller than those faced by Roosevelt, Lincoln, and Washington: a crisis that will determine if American democracy survives to the next generation. So-called 'conservatives' are turning our government inside out, trying, as they say, 'to drown it in the bathtub,' killing off regulatory agencies, ripping up the Constitution, cutting funding to social services, and turning pollution controls over to industry. Government expenses in the trillions of dollars are being shifted from us, today, to the shoulders of our children, who will certainly have to repay the deficits Bush's so-called 'tax cuts' (which are really tax deferrals) are racking up. War is being waged in our name and without our consent.





"And, most disconcerting, the leadership of this administration is made up of blatantly profiteering CEOs, former defense industry lobbyists, and failed hack politicians so outside the mainstream that one - Ashcroft - even lost an election in his home state against a dead guy.





"Unlike most other modern democracies, our American electoral system only allows for two political parties, at least at the national level. So, given that the rich, the polluters, the paranoid, and the zealot war-mongers got to the Republicans first, we have no choice but to take back the Democratic Party, reinvigorate it, reorient it, and lead it to success in 2004. We may not be able to stop Bush now, but we sure as hell can throw him out of office next year at the ballot box."





But what, some have said in response, about the corporate-controlled media?





That was the same problem faced by the Christian Right 25 years ago, when the coverage they could get was of Tammy Faye Bakker scandals. But once they'd taken over the Republican Party, the press could no longer ignore them, and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are now regulars on network TV.





Another person answered my now-form-email by saying, "I want to participate in producing a detailed plan for the future of America, rather than just joining a corrupt and tired-out political party."





My response was that if there were enough of us in the Democratic Party, it could become a cleaned-up and powerful activist force. It's possible: just look at how the anti-abortion and gun-nut folks took over the once-moribund Republican Party.





Another said, "But what about their rigged computer-controlled voting machines?"





My answer is that only a political party as large and resourceful as the Democrats could have the power to re-institute exit polling, and catch scams like the voter-list purges Jeb Bush used to steal the 2000 and 2002 elections for himself and his brother.





And the Democratic Party can only do it if we, in massive numbers, join it, embrace it, and ultimately gain a powerful and decisive voice in its policy-making and selection of candidates.





Thom Hartmann is the author of over a dozen books, including "Unequal Protection" and "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight." http://www.thomhartmann.com. This article is copyright by Thom Hartmann, but permission is granted for reprint in print, email, blog, or web media so long as this credit is attached.





DianaBouvier99
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby Blue Pariah » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:13 am

With this talk of "American Imperialism" (which is really more "Cheney/Rumsfeld Imperialism"), here's the text of an article I just posted a link to earlier:



Quote:
Reality Check: A New American Century

CBC News Online | March 17, 2003







Could this conflict have been avoided? As the CBC Reality Check team found, the current course of events has been carefully planned by a powerful group of men, beginning even before George Bush assumed the U.S. presidency.



George W. Bush, presidential candidate, said on Oct. 11, 2000.



"I think one way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying, 'We do it this way, so should you.'"



One of Bush's more recent speeches is somewhat different: "The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder... By the resolve and purpose of America, and of our friends and allies, we will make this an age of progress and liberty."



So, what happened? After the terrorist attacks on September 11, Bush had to rethink. But for many of those around him, there was no need to. Long before Sept. 11, influential neo-conservatives wanted to see America as an enlightened ruler, unchallenged, astride the world. Long before Bush was elected president, they got together and they wrote down a manifesto.



The document was effectively a charter of the Project for a New American Century, a neo-conservative think tank in Washington.



Jay Bookman of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution says, "In essence it's a call for an American empire, for what they call Pax Americana ... it's basically saying that the United States has to take responsibility and to enforce peace around the world and enforce what they call American principles and American interests."



The founding members included Vice-President Dick Cheney; Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld; Paul Wolfowitz of the Defence Department; Richard Perle, head of the defence advisory board; Louis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff; John Bolton, undersecretary of state for arms control; and Elliot Cohen of the defence policy board.



Much of what these men wanted is coming true: They urged that the U.S. abandon the anti-ballistic missile treaty. It has.



They wanted establishment of more permanent U.S. military bases abroad. That is happening in the Philippines and in Georgia, and will likely happen in Iraq.



They urged regime change as a goal of foreign wars, and not just in Iraq.



They wanted the U.S. as a global "constabulary" ? their word ? unburdened by the United Nations or world opinion, preventing any challenge to U.S. dominance.



But, they wrote a year before Sept. 11, such aspirations are unlikely to be realized without "a catastrophic and catalyzing event. . .like a new Pearl Harbor."



William Kristol, a leading neo-conservative and director of the Project for a New American Century, believes such goals are good and right, and he's delighted with all this success, but says there is more to do.



"We haven't persuaded the Bush administration of everything? I think we need to spend more on defence, I think they need to re-think their policy toward Saudi Arabia, I think the administration kicked the can down the road on North Korea, but that remains a threat?"



It's America as Gary Cooper in High Noon, say the critics. Standing tall, all alone, building a new American empire in a new American century.



"Kristol has used the term 'benevolent global hegemony,' which to me says empire, but I suppose if you put the word benevolent in front of it, it makes it OK," Bookman says.



It's been a long time in the making. And wise people will not underestimate the determination of its proponents.



"The point of view from here is a really attractive agenda of governing. We never thought of ourselves as simply intellectual thought experiments," Kristol says.






Then go and check out some of the stuff at:



www.newamericancentury.org/





I don't think Americans in general want to rule the world.



I do think there are people in very powerful positions in the current administration who don't really want to rule the world, but do want to control it.

I take to shade and I play in the shadows
I watch my back and I play it cool
"Blue Pariah" by BRJ

Blue Pariah
 


Re: How to Take Back America

Postby Penrose Orleans » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:25 am

Quote:
It's a critical flaw built into our system, so well identified in Robert A. Dahl's brilliant book "How Democratic Is the American Constitution


I ADORE Dahl! I used to be a knee-jerk anti-democracy liberal, but then I read his book (Democracy and Its Critics) and it was like seeing the light... not like I worship at the altar of democracy, but I definitely respect it as much as any other government. Everyone should read Dahl-- he's one rockin' author. And that was the end of that chapter. --Nora

"Ya estoy curado, anestesiado, ya me he olvidado de tí...

Hoy me despido de tu ausencia- ya estoy en paz." -Manu Chao, 'La Despedida'

Edited by: maudmac at: 3/26/03 12:03:13 am
Penrose Orleans
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby 4WiccanLuv » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:49 am

We, Americans, do want to rule the world! I just got the memo. Heh…sorry folks, just tryin' to lighten the mood in here.



Imperialistic, well I suppose we've been called worse. The bottom-line is that America has great business sense and we will benefit from this war financially. Still, I don't believe for one second that many of the stronger economically sound European countries won't benefit as well. When all is said and done, they will all get their share of the big fat juicy pie. I'm not foolish enough to believe that there are not many hidden agendas and cloak and dagger type stuff at work here. Truth is, no one has clean hands. As we speak, reconstruction contracts are being negotiated. But you know what, let them make their money. I'm for whatever it takes to free the Iraqi people and in the process rid ourselves of the world threat, that is Saddam Hussein.



DMW, thanks for the history lesson. Very interesting view, although I feel it's somewhat skewed. BeatNikJackie7777 responded to the imperialism charge a hell of a lot better than I could have.



Diebrock said:



Quote:
German international lawyers (is that a word? I mean profs and such who specialize in international law) are of the opinion that Res 1441 is not enough to legitimate the war.




I disagree, check out UN Resolutions 678 and 687 predecessors to 1441 in regards to the legalities and enforcement of serious consequences. I agree, the key is interpretation.



IMO, President Bush is acting in accordance to our Constitution, stating that reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. Further, President Bush, asserted his legal and constitutional authority to wage war against Iraq.



Linda



_____________


"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty." - John F. JFK

4WiccanLuv
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:02 am

I don't see where BeatNikJackie7777 has argued against the Imperialism charge. After all, she says that the U.S. has already taken over, and that the important difference between the U.S. and my example of Rome, is that the U.S. is more of an imperial power, with greater reach and such great importance that it would be disastrous for the world if it fell. Her arguments against the war being about oil repeat yours without responding to my counterpoints to your argument. In fact, I can't see anything in her post that argues against either of my posts.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


....

Postby BeatNikJackie7777 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:35 am

I wasnt particularly trying to argue against any specific post to a full extent. I was I just kinda putting in my two cents. And I obviously do think the US is imperialistic, just in a different way than the term's more immediate connectation allows for. However, I also dont particularly disagree with the US' form of imperialism, because I think that if you benefit from the US' capitalism...it would be somewhat hypocrital to then blast it (like perhaps a certain speech at the oscars this week, now being labeled by some as "heroic"). Heroic are the coalition troops risking their lives right now, regardless of whether or not the war is right or wrong.



When you think about it, being the only superpower left right now not only puts the US in a very difficult place, but its also a great responsibility. The responsibility to help the entire world, when the world cant help itself invariably falls on our shoulders. I think the US has maintained this position, because we've shown that despite our mistakes, we have what it takes to handle that responsibility and be world leaders. Its seems far too easy to focus solely on the negative, and forget the amount of aid the US has given to other nations throughout its history. Btw, I'm not responding to anything anyone here specifically said, just kind of addressing all the backlashing I've been hearing a lot at school and what not. Anyway, that's my two cents.



--BeatNik



ps: As far as oil is concerned, yes, I agree with 4wiccanluv, and thus my arguments are somewhat similar. I also didnt realize this was a licoln-douglas debate....like I said, I was just throwing in my own perspective. I didnt see, however, where you responded to my question about oil....maybe I missed it.

BeatNikJackie7777
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby justin » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:55 am

Quote:
I also dont particularly disagree with the US' form of imperialism, because I think that if you benefit from the US' capitalism...




Personaly I think that very few people have benefitted from capitalism, US or otherwise, but then that isn't what this thread is about. So moving on



Quote:
Heroic are the coalition troops risking their lives right now, regardless of whether or not the war is right or wrong.




What about the Iraqi soldiers who are also risking their lives, aren't they also heroic?



Anyone I think that heroism is standing up for what you believe in even when you can get into trouble for doing so and that is what Michael Moore did so yes I would say that it was heroic.



Quote:
The responsibility to help the entire world, when the world cant help itself invariably falls on our shoulders. I think the US has maintained this position, because we've shown that despite our mistakes, we have what it takes to handle that responsibility and be world leaders.




I don't think that any single country has the right to claim to be world leaders and that Americas only qualification in this regards is that they're bigger and stronger than anyone else.



Quote:
I also didnt realize this was a licoln-douglas debate....


I have no idea what that means. Do you think that you're being attacked for your opinions? If so then I'll say that while I might disagree with your opinions I don't disagree with you.



Quote:
I didnt see, however, where you responded to my question about oil




I doubt if this war is just about oil. However I think that oil plays a bigger part in it than any desire to help the people of Iraq.



I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am


justin
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby xita » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:18 am

There is a difference between being World Leaders and being World Bullies who interfere in anything that has an economic interest. That is the impression that 99% of the world has of us. We know what that dislike can do so instead of trying to build bridges and truly be leaders, we challenge the will of the world community. What does that accomplish? Bush may or may not have the constitutional right to do what he is doing, but as I look to the future we cannot ignore international law as the world becomes more and more one community.



American Imperialism? As I look at the tv screen and I see the long line of tanks plowing through the desert and I hear the CNN commentator talk about how impressive the "caravan" is. I cannot help but be reminded of the push west as America populated the west and the excitement that generated for so many. It was eerie for me and disturbing.





-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

xita
 


...

Postby BeatNikJackie7777 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:22 am

All I meant with the licoln-douglas comment I wasnt really worried about making a formal argument, I was just venting I guess.



secondly, I never said iraqi soilders werent also heroic.



And thirdly, I think many, many, many people have benefited from american capitalism. Everyday. Too many to list. This is a fact not conjecture on my part. That's why Steve Martin's response to Moore's speech afterwards was so right on.



As for oil, I do think its an incentive, but not the sole reason. The only thing I was getting at was that its not just an incentive for the US, and many governments that oppose the war might not be doing so for the purest reasons either. Countries, for instance, who already have significant oil interests in Iraq and dont want the US to gain access to it.

BeatNikJackie7777
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby DianaBouvier99 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:32 am

Quote:
What about the Iraqi soldiers who are also risking their lives, aren't they also heroic?




I request a separate support thread for those of us who have Sons, daughters, lovers serving in the military.



Edited to add: BBO--my hero! Thank you but why can't it I find it?





Edited by: DianaBouvier99 at: 3/26/03 8:38:37 am
DianaBouvier99
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby Kendahl897 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:54 am

Well, Dick Cheney's old firm Haliburton has been awarded the contract to go in and rebuild Iraqui's oil wells..Why am I not surprised?

Kendahl897
 


Re: American Imperialism

Postby BBOvenGuy » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:32 am

Quote:
I request a separate support thread for those of us who have Sons, daughters, lovers serving in the military




We have one. It's right here. :)

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

BBOvenGuy
 


Heroic?

Postby cassiopeia191 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:45 am

Please, explain to me why exactly soldiers on either side are heroes? Why does war to some people still have the stigma of a great adventure where heroes are made? I wouldn't go as far as to actively support Tucholsky's "Soldiers are murderers" but in my opinion, no soldier is heroic doing his duty unless he manages not to kill a single person and prevent the death of others. Which is most certainly not what happens around there too often.

My point: it is dangerous to think about war as an act of heroism and glorify it like that -- and, naturally connected to this, all the talk of cowardice goes the same direction, as if war was some kind of grown-up playland. No one bailed when things got tough: Germany for example has supported the idea of a peaceful solution for many months now, which has brought them harsh reproaches and some very snide remarks ("axis of weasels", being cast aside as irrelevant) especially from the US. I was especially fond of Rumsfeld comparing Germany to Cuba and Libya -- a comparison that must have made especially Libya very unhappy.

They never bailed because they never understood the Iraq problem the way the US wanted to force the world to see it in the first place.



What gets to me the most is when people say the UNO has become irrelevant... how would it still have any importance if it decided to work as an instrument for the US to carry out their plans, regardless of international law?



I will be surprised if I see that the US actually makes the effort to rebuild Iraq -- if Afghanistan (one of the most senseless wars ever that should have been protested against more drastically) is any example, the Iraqi people do have something to look forward to (they might not even notice they were liberated, they might be too busy hating everything America-related; which is what I'd do if the US decided to bomb my country).



Democracy is nice, no doubt, or at least one of the better systems but it is so naive to assume that it will just fit every society ... it is absolutely essential to look at the structure of the Iraqi culture and history. This system might fit the US, great!, but we do have totally different prerequisites in this case and democracy will blow uo into everyone's faces because the asscumption: "country + democracy = happiness and peace and sunshine" is so tiringly arrogant and shortsighted at the same time.



Resolution 1441 does not state that a war will be waged against Iraq only because the US interpret it that way --it certainly does not. Also, it's not the US' right to act unilaterally --this shows more disrespect to the international community than even Iraq has managed to show, IMHO.

I've said this before: if the US wants to enforce UN resolutions so badly, they should think about bombing Israel in the next few day.

Edited by: cassiopeia191 at: 3/30/03 5:44:45 am
cassiopeia191
 


Cuba and WWII

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:31 pm

BeatNikJackie7777 wrote:

During the Cuban Missile crisis, we were also in a very difficult situation where people were afraid of war and didnt have all the facts the government was privy to. In fact, as a cuban I can tell you, my grandfather hated democrats till the day he died after that. But in hindsight, we know now how close and real the threat was and how taking a stand was our only real course of action.




Actually, in hindsight, once we obtained the information hidden by the US government, we learned that not only was taking a stand not our only course of action, but that it wasn't what actually happened. Once the air force explained that they couldn't guarantee the destruction of all the missiles and that there was around a 50% chance of nuclear war if they tried, JFK sensibly turned to negotiation.



RFK's posthumous memoir Thirteen Days and documents released after the Cold War explain that RFK offered the Soviet ambassador a pledge of no US invasion of Cuba and the removal of the US Jupiter missiles from Turkey (just as Krushev requested in his second letter to JFK) in return for the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba. The US requested that this deal remain secret, so that JFK could look like he made an uncompromising stand against the USSR.



Today we know the truth.




During WWII, we didnt want to get involved in a war that didnt involve us (until pearl harbor that is), and we were critized for not joining the war soon enough.




WWII is probably the best example of a morally justified war that the US has ever fought; however, it's worth noting that while the US population didn't want war, FDR was desperately trying to get into WWII. He arranged for the US to give arms to the UK and USSR without payment (lend lease). In 1941, the US froze Japanese assets and stopped the export of oil to Japan, then followed that by Secretary of State Hull presenting Japan with a veritable ultimatum, delivered on November 26, that demanded that Japan withdraw from China. Hull even admitted there could only be a military solution at that point, and the Navy expected that Japan would start the war by destroying the Pacific fleet by surprise as they had destroyed the Russian Pacific fleet in 1904 at Port Arthur. While there's no question that Japanese are to blame for their attack on Pearl Harbor, it's important to see also that the executive branch wanted to get into a war and did all that it could to start one.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/26/03 10:33:44 am
darkmagicwillow
 


....

Postby BeatNikJackie7777 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:00 pm

"it's important to see also that the executive branch wanted to get into a war and did all that it could to start one."



Are you trying to imply now that the US started WWII????? huh? Please clarify this.



As for everything else, I'm sorry, but while everyone else has been allowed to voice their opinions freely, I think I was very respectful in my first post and I dont see why I should be attacked because within the boundaries of reason I support the US, a nation which is my home.



You are absolutely right though, at the time of the cuban missile crisis, we didnt have all the facts. I believe I said that..I also said that we dont have all the facts now, facts that for matters of security or whatever, we arent privy to, so it becomes hard to see the big picture. But my point is, that while their may have been people scared that the cuban missile crisis was going to lead us to war, scared of escalating tensions and wishing we could just let things be and have peace, we now know how real the threat was, and how close we came to the brink of disaster. Anyhow, that was just my reasoning behind that statement.



cass :) --I think all troops are heroic, regardless of whether the war is right or wrong, because they serve to secure our rights 365 days out of the year. The trade-off being that in times like these they're called to duty. If it werent for them, our nations would be defenseless. At the end of the day, however, they're just ordinary citizens willing to make that sacrice, and when their government decides to go to war, they cant say no. So yes, I think it takes a great deal of courage to make a pledge to defend your nation, knowing that a time like this might arise at any moment when you'll be called to duty. They're just ordinary people sacrificing their lives (this goes for iraqi troops as well). That's why I called them heroic.











BeatNikJackie7777
 


Re: Heroic?

Postby dekalog » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:15 pm

I've been trying to stay out of commenting on this thread lately, but must say I agree about the glorification of war, and how people see soldiers going off to war as being heroic, but taking time, and working through things through diplomacy is seen as a waste of time? I think this has been ingrained into our psyche's to our detriment - breeds into the whole competition vs. cooperation debate.



Second this whole idea of benefiting from American capitalism - yes, some have benefited, and many others have suffered - depends on your point of view - not the thread for this discussion but there are many small businesses even within the US that would argue that the kind of sweeping multinationals that are taking over the world are not good for your average person - especially since the wealth of the world is being amassed by a smaller and smaller percentage of the very wealthy, and very powerful few.



Third and last this idea that this war is saving the Iraqi people is very one sided. In my community there are many people that came here after the the Gulf War - many despise Saddam Hussien but feel that the US or any other country has no right to decide for the Iraqi people what their country should look like. Freelance journalists inside Iraq who I have heard interview citizens of Iraq mostly say the same thing - a few others are on either the 'I love SM' camp, or get him out now, but the majority feel it is there issue to deal with.



And if it is truly the well being of the Iraqi people that we are talking about - I would just like to give you a brief rundown of an interview that I just listened to with someone who has been in Iraq for the past 10 years with the relief organization War Child - because of the war relief workers who have been trying to stabilize efforts to assist children at risk in Iraq since the end of the Gulf War under ever increasing difficulties brought about by sanctions have had to pull out of the region. This means that humanitarian aid that has been there for over ten years has had to abandon starving children because of this war. To me, when you count the casualties of this war it should include the people who starve to death as well as those killed by bombs and fighting.

dekalog
 


Re: ....

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:38 pm

BeatNikJackie7777 wrote:

Are you trying to imply now that the US started WWII????? huh? Please clarify this.




No, I'm not saying the US started WWII. The various invasions launched by Germany and Japan started the war in the 1930's. I'm just pointing out that the US gave what it admitted were provocations to Japan and refused to talk with Japanese diplomats when they wanted to talk about those provocations, in order to get Japan to declare war on the US.



I support the American decision to fight Japan in WWII, and while I don't like how the President manuevered to get Japan to declare war, I'm realistic enough to admit that it was probably the only way to get the American people to want to stop Japanese aggression.




As for everything else, I'm sorry, but while everyone else has been allowed to voice their opinions freely, I think I was very respectful in my first post and I dont see why I should be attacked because within the boundaries of reason I support the US, a nation which is my home.




I haven't attacked you; I have agreed with you on some points (imperialism, the morality of WWII) and disagreed with you on others (oil, Cuba), but disagreement is not an attack. I am interested in history so I've provided historical context where I thought it was important, whether or not I agreed with a point.




that while their may have been people scared that the cuban missile crisis was going to lead us to war, scared of escalating tensions and wishing we could just let things be and have peace, we now know how real the threat was, and how close we came to the brink of disaster.




I agree that the threat was real, but my point is that the US was the source of the threat in the Cuban missile crisis, so I think that piece of history supports my points about the war in Iraq.



Placement of missiles in a country bordering the USSR was an intolerable provocation as was the American invasion of Cuba. We came to the brink of disaster because the US initially considered starting what would have become a third world war over the USSR placing missiles in Cuba just as the US had placed missiles in Turkey. I don't blame Americans for not liking missiles in Cuba any more than I blame the Soviets for not liking missiles in Turkey. I am, however, very glad that both sides realized the danger of those provocations and agreed to eliminate the missiles in both Cuba and Turkey.



My meta-point in both of these examples is that a country can always find a reason to start a war if it wants one, therefore people should always be suspicious and examine both declared and undeclared reasons for making war before deciding that they agree with the decision.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/26/03 12:41:19 pm
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: One Average American Opinion

Postby Kieli » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:58 pm

Shadow: My apologies for not responding earlier. I'm not eloquent, just have a big mouth :lol



Quote:
am proud to be an American. I love my country, but I also love the world. I don't think the "American way of life" is better than the way of life in many other countries in the world and our opinion isn't more important either. Since this war does not just effect us, it should not be our decision alone to enter into it.




I agree completely. Just because I vehemently disagree with my country's government's actions does not mean I am not a patriot. I just think the US is better than the atrocious behaviour we've been exhibiting of late. It's not acting like the country I would die for.






Time flies by when the Devil drives.

Kieli
 


Re: ....

Postby sparrow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:13 pm

The men and women who are putting their lives on the line are heroic no ands, ifs or buts about it. They did not ask to be put in harms way. They are just doing their job and all they want to do is come home to their families. War is an ugly thing and there are those who have to do the ugly things in the defense of those freedoms which we all hold dear.









And yet, I just can't seem to care
Buffy as you know it is over

Edited by: sparrow  at: 3/26/03 2:23:14 pm
sparrow
 


Re: ....

Postby darkmagicwillow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:38 pm

I would call the coalition soldiers courageous for putting their lives on the line, rather than heroic. The Americans defending Coreggidor against much larger, aggressive Japanese armies without hope of reinforcement were heroic, but the overwhelming power of the coalition and the moral dubiousness of its actions prevents me from calling its soldiers heroic.



Sparrow, I'm curious about your statement that our soldiers are working for "defense of those freedoms." I've heard similar statements made more than once in support of the war, and I've been puzzled by it every time. Do you really think Iraq could ever take away America's freedoms?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: ....

Postby sparrow » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:57 pm

I am proud of those who have served and died for their country. I am also thankful that we all have the right to disagree, agree, discuss and vent about our views without fear of a firing squad. Somethings are not forseen and when they happen too much has been lost. We must be ever vigilent and be supportive of those in country.













And yet, I just can't seem to care
Buffy as you know it is over

sparrow
 


Re: ....

Postby BeatNikJackie7777 » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:02 pm

the point is not whether you feel this particular war is necessary to ensure american freedoms. The point is that the millitary is there to ensure our freedoms period. 365 days out of the year. And that means being willing to be on-call 365 days out of the year should they be needed for whatever reason. Sometimes that means being sent to a war you dont agree with. Many soldiers didnt agree with vietnam, but had to respond to the call of duty anyways. Thats the sacrifice they make. The individual men and women who sign up for this very uncertain and potentially dangerous service that is the millitary for the most part have nothing to do with the foreign policy that sends them to war, but they sign-up anyway, and in doing so they ensure our freedoms are protected every single day. One of my very good friends is in the currently in the marines. He's an average guy, 22, an amazing artist, very romantic sort :) . I havent been able to talk to him to see if he agrees with the war. Do I think him a hero regardless? Absolutely.

BeatNikJackie7777
 


Re: One Average American Opinion

Postby lauriebear » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:13 pm

Interesting comments in here. I so have to check out that book. Thanks.

This is a pretty good web site below. Full of interesting stuff. Especially some stuff about GW and the clear channel co.

In case anyone's wondering. Clear Channel is a company that owns the largest portions of radio stations.

It organized many pro-war rallies in certain cities. Including some where a pile Dixie chicks CD's and stuff were demolished by a bulldozer. The media making the news...there it is. The kicker the Vice pres of the company is the best bud to GWBUSH.

What's next the Fox news fanatics for Bush rally?

CNN's Capitalist Nation pro-war rally?

Where does it end?



Other stuff too. Some interesting stuff on what some former presidents has said. DMW I think you would like it.



anonymousblogger.blogspot.com/



My favorite:



We must face the fact," President John F. JFK once said, "that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient -- that we are only 6% of the world's population -- that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind -- that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity -- and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."



Yet that is exactly what we are doing.



Oh go Bush..do your thing..get more right wing, get more fanatical..yup I think it's time for another social movement.

Let's get rolling. Remember the sixties. Counterculture anyone.



Oh and someone mentioned Micheal Moore. His web site is also very interesting. He brought up a point that I failed to realize. Does anyone wonder why lighters and match books are still permitted on flights...even after 9-11. Even after toenail clippers and leafblowers aren't? Even after some idiot almost lit his shoes one fire in order to blow up a plane?

Answer: The BUSH admin was lobbied by the big tobacco industry not to put them on the list.

SO I guess in light of this, I have to laugh at the notion that this war is being fought to prevent terrorism.



http://www.michealmoore.com it's under the bowling for colombine section under library. One of the exerpts there.

Very interesting.



Sorry for the rant on Bush, but I think this country is going to hell in a handbasket and funny how it started 2 years ago.



I guess I just want everyone to be informed because I had a talk with a co-worker about the war and get this, she "has no opinion, because [she] hasn't been following it enough to make an opinion...And [she's] fine with that. holy WTF?????



Like lambs to a slaughter.



edit to add: that not to say her or anyone's opinion has to agree with mine, but at least come to some conclusion. At least be a participating member in a democracy...or oligarcy...or whatever the US is. And to think I work at a school for heaven's sakes. Dewey would be so ashamed.

Edited by: lauriebear at: 3/26/03 3:19:19 pm
lauriebear
 

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