The Rose24 - I think it's important to keep in mind the view of society regarding homosexuality during this time.
Doctors were coming forward and saying that being gay was a mental illness. Respected doctors.
I don't think the police are any worse or better then most of society as a whole during this time. They did have power, but I think their actions reflected society's fears and confusion (and perhaps, even anger.)
Tara and Willow, I think, are an essential part of one another, and always will be. I think that's what it is to be soulmates.
bluewillowwitch - Will update asap, I promise. I am so sorry I have been less then dilligent about this. But hey...extra smut.
Puff When I wrote the original scene on the beach, it made me uncomfortable. But when I got to the Willow response...that pained me. I think that when something like that happens, how you respond often depends on the direction of your soul. You can't prevent, I think, being marked. But you do not have to be tainted. Willow must rise above. So must Tara. Or there is defeat. So Willow was brouht close to changing in a fundemental way. But then...Tara helped her remember who she was. I think that was a remarkable thing for someone to be able to do for another. Willow was at the cliff again...but Tara helped bring her back...to herself.
Maybe that's the greatest gift that the people we love and that love us can give.
And my dear friend, many many wishes of wonder for you and yours. My deepest, most heartfelt congrats.
AntigoneUnbound - I remember when I was contemplating the scene, thinking about what might and might not happen on the beach. Rape did come to mind, then...but I couldn't quite stomach even hinting at that happening to Willow or Tara. Besides, it felt like it was too much. While rapes did happen, and this is a horrible truth, it is my understanding that it was not commonplace. Harassment however is another story. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be a victim of such humilation of degradation. By the very people you are supposed to be able to trust. Schools, Government, Police. Even doctors claiming you were insane.
Beyond what people in these situations have actually experienced, the human psyche then takes over...and makes you doubt yourself. Makes you feel out of control of so many things, and therefore feel helpless. The harshness of judging when to fight and when to remain silent. The feeling that even when you do try and do something you are fighting against a bigger monster then you could ever, ever hope to defeat. The seeming hopelessness of it all when all society views you as an outcast or sick or immoral or all three.
How many people accepted with resignation their fate after they tried and tried to fight. How many women and men consigned themselves to misery.
But what amazes me more is those that refused to compromise. And what I ask myself, and I am unsure of the answer...is where *I* would stand.
Sorry...I have to put the soapbox back.
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I've read examples where people seem to just string words together. I think her speech, though, while often astoundingly non-linear, is never inane or nonsensical.
I really, really love writing Willow babble. My mind works in that kind of babble. Rushing on, taking unrelated topics and going on tangents. It is REALLY fun just letting Willow go off on a topic.
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It's one thing to "do right" because doing otherwise really isn't an option; but when we could tilt the scales in our favor through use of unfair advantage and we choose not to--that seems a far greater morality.
Willow and Tara rise above what has happened. In the end, because they turn away from taking revenge, I believe they win. It's not a bloodless victory, emotionally. But wounds on the heart can heal. Especially if you aren't alone.
Grimlock72 -
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I'm not sure on what basis the Captain intends to shut down that bar but other then that he is trying to do his job
As Maccoda said:
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in 1967 America the standard reason to raid a "gay bar" was the illegal sale of alcohol. Rounding up the homosexuals was the goal but alcohol sale was usually the
excuse.
You'll notice that after Willow tells the bartender there is going to be a raid, they start cleaning up any signs of alcohol. Beer bottles, etc. I didn't go into the why of this. Somehow I wanted to keep this subtle and not go into a lot of details. The reason being that the alcohol, as stated, was an excuse. And if they didn't have that one they would have found another.
I'm just going to state my general opinion here. I don't have hard evidence. But this is what I think:
Police are in a position of great authority and power. I often don't think we give them enough credit. Despite the abuses of power that have occured. Being a cop is mostly a high stress thankless job, I would think.
And if they want to get you, I would imagine that it would be easy to do so. Often a police officer's testimony carries more weight in court. Say you were pulled over and a police officer simply didn't like you. Say they planted some illegal substance on your person. Or they stated that you had attacked them, and that in response, they had hit you say...about ten times with a baton. Long enough to keep you down, but nothing obviously excessive.
You insist that you were framed. But we live in a cyncial society. Criminals often claim that the police are framing them. And if the police hand the judge evidence and one police officer, maybe two are willing to testify against you. Well...I wouldn't put your odds at better that 50-50 of not getting convicted. Unless you could afford mega lawyers or were lucky enough to have a video of the whole thing.
Of course, if the officer had a history of such arrests or you had no history of criminal behaviour these thing might be looked at. Maybe.
Police, in the past, acted with much more impunity then they face now. But even now...police have a lot of power. I believe there are many good police officers out there and I am grateful for them.
But assuming that society believed you were immoral, and the police wanted to quell an immorality that society believed was dangerous...well, I would imagine they could find many reasons to harass, arrest and censur you.
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The entire beach thing struck me more as a kind of student prank, it virtually reeked of insecurity. You got to be pretty sad if you have to use force to have someone say stuff you like, esp. if you even *think* they mean it then. Seemed more like harrasment for the fun of it, they DID have camera's back then did they not ??
Again, just rolling with my opinion and I thank you for yours.
I think the woman that went through such things would disagree with the idea that it was prank. Insecuirty yes...but also fear. Fear from a male driven world in a time where women were finally coming into their own.
It was harassment. But it was harassment to assert control. It was not for the fun of it. It was to try and put women back in their place and to uphold the ideas of what was "moral."
They had cameras. But the women on the beach were in their underwear and so they did not have them. Also, pictures/video only work when people agree that what has happened is wrong. Back in this age, people strongly believed that being gay was wrong. Assuming that you had pictures, could somehow convince a newspaper from THAT time to publish the pictures, I think at worst those officers would have gotton a hand slap that was just for show. Mostly, I think the photos would have been almost comical to many. Sad, but true, I think.
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I hope those police-scumballs have a HUGE hang-over when waking up (a rat-sized dick would be neat too, tiny leftover so to speak).
LOL...I should have considered that. It might have made an amusing reminder to them.
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Hmm... what are the other women who were on that beach going to say/do ? They all saw what happened I think.
I think that they will feel lucky to just go home. Some will come back to the bar the next week. Some won't. I believe that if someone filed a report, it somehow would never be followed up on. Paperwork can get lost so easily, if you want it to. Or that the cops would get a very verbal warning. And...then I wouldn't want to face those cops or their freinds again. I leave the question you asked, somewhat up in the air. It's a question that that will haunt W and T. What else
could they have done? What else should they have done?
EffieBlue - Thanks a lot for your comments. I like and appreciate the depth that you went into when explaining the mindset of women at the time. I had thought about it some - I used to be a WW2 history addict - from the prospective of women taking over 'the men's jobs' while the men were at war. And then the men coming home, and the women not necessarily wanting to go directly back to the kitchen. But what you said crystalized things.
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It frightened a lot of men and it still does. What is their place in the world if women no longer need them.
Ohhh, excellent point. The roles of society have been flipped and flipped again...and they are still not in order. They probably never will be again. I think you are exactly right. This has created in many men (and some women) a lot of fear and confusion.
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But because some of those women did stand up and say "NO MORE", young women like Bindingwiccan can say "I'm 15 and I'm gay"
Isn't it amazing?
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Even if it has brought back memories of being kicked by police officers for refusing to "get up, go home and look after my husband" when protesting in trafalgar square.
I'm sorry to have brought back bad memories, but you are exactly the kind of person that inspired me to write this. Often. I...personally...don't know or examine enough of my own history. I think people need to do that, and I think sometimes they need to say thank you - especially when others have sacrified so that a better tomorrow can be hoped for.
I don't know how to properly put into words my respect for what you have been through, and what you were willing to fight for. I guess that's why I had to try to frame it all into words in about forty some odd pages.
Thanks for your comments, thanks for reading...
And thank you.
Maccoda - Thanks for your comments to Grimlock as well as to myself. I didn't know about the mafia connection at all. Always good to find out more.
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My parents still worry about my partner and I because we live in a tiny town in a very conservative part of the US, they are afraid that we'll be harrassed or worse by our town officials.
Yeah...heavy sigh. It's just not completely accepted yet, is it? I have the same concerns when my partner and I are out in public. I fear harassment and looks and words. Sometimes I fear more then that. But I am out at work, and still have my job. I am out to my friends, and only one seems to have walked away from me - though homosexuality, I think is only part of that issue.
Maybe it will keep getting better. I think it will. Maybe one day there will be no need to be afraid.
shuyaku
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Wow. I specifically waited until I could read this in the privacy of my home and I'm so glad I did.
I reccomend that you do this with the smut bits too. I'm just teasing.
It was a hard part to write and I was a little worried at what the reaction would be. There is a little more angst, though it all gets much happier quickly. And you are right...no matter what, Our girls will be holding hands.
xita Firstly, I love your 'love at first sight/first touch' thingie. Happy sigh.
I agree with you, I think the girls are heroes in this part and it felt wonderful to eventually try and let them be seen in that light. They never - in the series - saw themselves in that light. They didn't refer to themselves as champions. But I believe that they were in the series. And as - Non Slayer driven-plain-old-rootin-tootin-courageous-human-beings in this part....I believe the same thing.
some dark thing About the offtopicness of your conversations in my thread...
No worries, hon. I actually like when a story inspirres some dicsussion. The conversations are about movies that deal with lesbians and how they are potrayed, and what makes us love...or sad about the movie. I wouldn't consider beyond the range of topic.
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As the others have already talked about the "bad side" (and yes it was awful, I'm not saying it isn't. Besides, I live in a country where the law against homosexuality was changed only a few years ago)
Where do you live, if I may ask? We're still working at gettin rid of laws here in the States.
Solidarity...It's hard for me to define it. A like purpose with others that are just as determined and crazy as you are? A feeling of family and similar purpose? I'm not sure I have entirely felt it either. There is no movement that is perfect. That are poltics and divisions that happen. Sometimes people can keep their eye on the ball. Sometimes not. Maybe sometimes people are afraid of what they can lose.
Solidarity. I think it takes a lot to inspire that these days. But we live in a generation where heroes are shreaded...and I think in the end, it is other people that inspire us the most.
I think solidarity does happen...still. But sometimes the cost is so high.
You've given me something to mull over.
One of? ONE OF?!
Teasing.
There are many wonderful writers on the Pens. And take nto account that art is subjective anyway, I will be very honored to take the title of "One of..."
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But uhm... what was that about bribe?
Coming right up...
(still replying)
Edited by: mariacomet at: 8/6/03 12:10 pm