The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe - Willow & Tara Forever

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 Post subject: Re: Bravo!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:37 am 
Katharyn -

Just caught up with the latest update. So many good things. I loved the way you conveyed Tara's empathy for all of the dead students Assigning a number to the dead, and compairing their loss to the one kid who died in Tara's old school was most effective in conveying the loss that has rocked that school. Then, when finding and losing the love of your life is laid over that moment, the pathos becomes much more heart wenching.



I'm enjoying all of these details that add to our understanding of these characters, and what their motivations are, and will be. I look forward to seeing how Willow becomes aware of the reality of her dreamgirl, and what her reactions will be.

BM

*********

TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!

ANYA: With yoga?



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 Post subject: Sticking it through
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 11:07 am 
Just adding my 2 cents to say I will stay with this, to see where you go. Something HAS to happen to VampWillow to give us a happy ending; I have absolutely no clue what that will be, but I await it with bated breath.



I also get the sense that the bad guys will be taken care of, and I mean more than the Maaster and his lackeys. Exactly what? I'm not sure, but I have a certain feeling...



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 Post subject: Thanks!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 11:36 am 
Hey guys, thankyou*S*



Mollyig... Now you are worried about the Mayors intentions?*LOL*



The how they come to be happy is the only bit I am going to offer no clue on. You might pick up on clues within the fic itself as we go along and there is only one other person who knows... she could live it as written. It's a long road to get there and there is alot that has to happen first to get us to that point. Our characters have to go through a lot.



But I am not going to cheat you. No one will be able to debate the fact that they are happy and together in the end... No one for any reason at all. Make of that what you will.



Katharyn

-------------

You hear that baby?





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 Post subject: Happy Endings or Where the Bloody Hell is this GOING?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:00 pm 
Good morning, Katharyn. *g*



Part of what I love about this story is that it's actually done, except for rewrites - which means, that if you tell us there's going to be a happy ending, then there IS going to be a happy ending.



But y'know ... I'm looking forward to how they get there. I mean, Evil Vampire Willow is a Bad Guy. There's no doubt that she's EVIL ... so I want a nice long journey where you darn well make her earn it.



Or, at least, have this Tara deserve a happy ending to such a degree that it doesn't bother me that Vampire Willow lucks out and gets to go along for the ride ;)



Heh ... I guess Tara and I are both big on justice.



Which, incidentally, is why it was fun to see Principal Flutie. I really can't remember him doing anything to deserve being killed by ... what was it? ... high-schoolers taken over by Evil Hyena Spirits?



As for philosophical ramblings regarding vampires and demons and souls (oh my!), I'll have to save that for a time when I'm not all bitter and cranky about losing an hour to Daylight Saving's Time.



-Sass



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 Post subject: Re: Happy Endings or Where the Bloody Hell is this GOING?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:16 pm 
Well at least I know there will be a happy ending ... eventually ... really enjoying this story ....






A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants






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 Post subject: Re: Happy Endings or Where the Bloody Hell is this GOING?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:14 pm 
I hear what you're saying, The Rose. There is no guarantee at all that Katharyn will find us a happy ending what with Willow being vamped and Sunnydale being the veritable hellhole that it is.



However, I prefer to trust in her judgement. She hasn't let us down before and has asserted her commitment to the Willow/Tara relationship on many occasions. I think in this fic as well, you can see the burgeoning need for the other that both girls are experiencing.



Sometimes, the path to happiness is a rocky road. It's not clear cut and not easy to see the plateau at the top. And this is an alternative universe fic, which means that our common perceptions of characters and places are naturally diverted and pushed to one side in favor of following the new storylines.



Stick with it, The Rose. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. I'm certainly not. :)


----------
Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!



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 Post subject: Parts 11-13
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:25 pm 
Just caught up with all the updates and I've enjoyed all of them. Katharyn, you again blew me away with your words. Part 13 affected me so much in a good way. I mean, I really felt Tara's pain upon knowing Willow's death. And I'm not sure about this but with Tara's knowledge and acceptance of Willow's death, seeing Vamp Willow would impact her more than if she didn't know Willow was already dead. Of course, Tara would be really glad seeing Willow alive but it would be hell for her knowing that Willow had taken the form of something that had caused her pain beyond words. Okay, I'm not really good at putting up theories or speculations. So, I guess I'll just wait for updates and see Tara and Vamp Willow's eventual meeting. Especially now because of the master vs. mayor scenario. Looking forward to the next update.



----------

I love you as certain dark things are to be loved, in secret, between the shadow and the soul... - Pablo Neruda



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 Post subject: There is hope at the end of the tunnel !!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:59 pm 
I know where this is going. Trust me there is a happy ending. There are even some happy (ish) bits in some of the middle bits. But it is a long and winding road, full of rocks, pitfalls and one or two blind alleys. But they will find each other and in the end they will be happy.



It's the journey that makes the happy ending worthwhile. On that subject I will say little other than you will laugh, cry, grind your teeth in frustration, and experience the occasional warm glow of satisfaction.





Vincit qui patitur...

(He conquers who endures... )



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 Post subject: Re: There is hope at the end of the tunnel !!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:39 pm 
Tommo said I hear what you're saying, The Rose. There is no guarantee at all that Katharyn will find us a happy ending what with Willow being vamped and Sunnydale being the veritable hellhole that it is.

----------------



Thanks Ruth for your words of support to The Rose, you put it better than I could in your reply and every word is correct as far as you the readers know. I am happy to say that there is a guarantee though. Unconditional and cast iron. I am willing to grovel before (and write gatuitous W/T smutfic for!!) anyone who can honestly say that they do not feel that the utimate ending of this story is happy and filled with hope for our girls. You might not be able to see it yet but the final parts are written, stored on my hard drive could be posted tomorrow but for for all the intervening missing bits to get us there. Sunnydale hellhole, Willow status, Tara's alledged "heritage" from 'Family', the small matter of their feelings for one another and everything else including stuff about a lot of characters that you have not even seen yet. If I couldn't clean this mess up (without wishes, resets or gypsy spells) then I would never allowed myself to make it. I promise you all that absolutely. Kerry has seen pretty much all of this including the ending... and she has stated it above... listen to her she knows what she is talking about as always. Infact on her advice I brightened the ending even more adding two extra parts after the conclusion to reward all those who stick around that long...



That said the road to that point is not a comfy one to be on and there is stuff in there that people may not like. Uncomfortable stuff. That, as much as the ending, is pretty much fixed too. Ruth is dead right though... this is an AU fic with all that means... one set in a nasty place I didn't actually create. It won't be so nasty when I put it back in the box. I promise. I don't think I can spell that out any clearer than that but I will try if you like and still want reassurances!*S*



Thankyou all for your support and feedback as usual*S*



Part 14 tomorrow sometime... much less impact than the last part though. Tara for 3 or so parts (I think) is going to be looking for information... guess who about?



Katharyn



-----------

You hear that baby?





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 Post subject: Re: Vampires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:54 pm 
Just a theory...



I see vampires as fully sentient beings capable of the same emotional responses as humans, but with all kinds of *stuff* that gets in the way. For one thing, in the Buffyverse, humans tend to use their soul to feel compassion, empathy, etc. Vampires have had that mechanism ripped out, replaced by demonic instincts and a physical need for blood. Is it any wonder vamps tend to come across as vicious children?



But the potential is there, albeit difficult to tap into. Hence--Spike's feelings for Buffy and Dru, Darla's feelings for Angelus, the Master's for Darla, etc. (Plus my own VampTara's for Willow).



Just my couple-a-pennies.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam



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 Post subject: Re: Vampires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 11:18 pm 
Oh yeah... there is potential. Just don't expect miracles...



*Let mystery be sustained*



Katharyn

----------

You hear that baby?



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 Post subject: Guarantees
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 11:40 pm 
Katharyn, there's enough depressing fic around these days to make a girl sick. I know yours isn't one of them. :lol



Hey, I trust you. So shoot me.


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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!



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 Post subject: Part 14
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 11:54 pm 
Offline
23. Volumey Text

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:23 pm
Posts: 3794
Topics: 5
Shoot you Ruth? Heck no... you just stopped me from having to double post! Though I did say the ending would be happy... best guess 30-35 parts away yet...

Anyway onto Part14. This is one of those awkward ones that I need in there, but would not stand either with the preceding one (risking losing impact there) or the following part either. Call it filler... it seems to end a little abruptly but it is leading somewhere within the next two parts... as you will see.

That said it widens the cast a little neh?

Take care Kittens and enjoy!


Katharyn
------------------
Title: The Sidestep Chronicle – Questions (Part 14)
Author: Katharyn Rosser
Feedback: Constructive criticism always welcome. katharynrosser@hotmail.com
Spoiler Warning: Pretty limited. The story occurs in an alternate universe though reference is made to events that occur in both realities.
Summary: Following on from Tara’s discovery of who Willow was she has questions to ask that need answers.
Disclaimer: I still don’t own any of the copyrights or anything else associated with BTVS. All rights lie with the production company, writers etc, etc. I am making zilch from this series of stories.
Rating: 15
Couples: Closer and Closer
Notes: This is quite a short part and I make no apology for that. Better to end it where I do than move into the next one and spoil the effect. This part, 15 and 16 all take part within the same 24 hour period… remember what happens.
Thanks To: Jo, Kerry, Louise and the readers… Ruth for as stirring ovation of “I trust you.”


The Sidestep Chronicle

Questions

By

Katharyn Rosser


The Mayor was, as always, as good as his word. She had been given permission to go and talk to anyone that she wanted to in the school today, but it quickly struck her that anyone who had been a contemporary of Willow’s and survived to graduate was already gone from High School. That had led her straight back to Vice-Principal Snyder.

Whilst his boss was amiable, and she actually kinda liked ‘Bob’ Flutie, he was too much of a good man to let her start wading around in the permanent records. Snyder, on the other hand, was eager enough to please the Mayor – or avoid displeasing him – that he would let her take her time on the computer.

She’d have bet that Willow could have found out everything a lot quicker. The young woman had obviously been a computer wizard. Snyder kept interrupting her efforts as well.

“You know that this is absolutely not allowed,” he told her, for the third time. “if it wasn't for the…”

“The Mayor?” she asked, keeping her eyes on the records but reminding him where her, admittedly transferred, authority lay. The sound he made could only be described as ‘Hmmpf.’ They both knew that there was only one winner here – and that was the power of Richard Wilkins in the town. Neither of them particularly had to like it. Snyder certainly didn’t. It probably didn’t help that he was banished to the other side of his own desk, like a visitor in her office.

The photo in the permanent records was the same one that adorned the Wall of Remembrance, which disappointed her a little. She realised that she was getting greedy. Before, all that time when she was desperate just to know who Willow was - just the name even - she would have been overjoyed to see a photo. Now she had a photo and all she wanted was more. More pictures – more knowledge.

Snyder ‘Hmmpfed’ again and pulled his jacket straight, rounding the desk to see what she was looking at. She would have liked to have been left alone here, but she could understand his genuine concerns. The records involved current students too and though she had no interest in those he couldn’t be letting her into that private material. And, of course, he wanted to stay in control too. “What are you looking at anyway?” he asked, standing so close to her that she had to move to get him out of her space. “Who’s that?” he asked looking at the screen.

“Willow Rosenberg” she replied, without looking up, without moving her eyes from the screen. The tiny image didn’t tell her any more than she already knew about her dream girl. But at this moment it was all she had. “Did you know her?” It didn’t seem enough.

“She’s dead?”

“She-She’s on the wall.” Didn’t he know? He should… he had been hearing her name, reading it sometimes for over three years. He should know that she as gone. He should know them all.

“Hmm, must have been before my time.” He took the mouse off her and started to manipulate the records faster than she could keep track of. “Hmm, better than the average student. She’d have kept our grade point average up a little higher. It’s always the useful ones who get eaten and never the trolls.” He was whizzing though screens that she hadn’t even tracked down yet – but she was adapting, starting to take it in. “Why,” he continued wondering aloud, “is it never the cretins and the idiots?”

She narrowed her eyes, but kept quite quiet. She wanted the information that she was seeing – and there was no chance of getting a print out, so she kept quiet and avoided arguing with him. He really seemed to dislike his students though… which she couldn’t help feeling was weird in his profession.

“She wasn't much for sports and team play though. Dropped out of chess club, no other sports or societies. Not even band. She looks the type for band though. God I can just see her waving a flute around… Urrgh, Kids.”

This time she looked at him wondering how he could be making these comments – especially about someone who was dead.

He saw her looking at him. “I maintain,” he explained to her, “ a sense of proportion. You won’t catch me crying in my office like Principal Flutie.”

“M-maybe,” she took the mouse back off him, “you should. Tell me how I can get a list of her teachers and the people who were in her classes.”

“They already left, last summer. Those that made it.”

Was he being deliberately cruel? He knew that she cared a lot more about the students than he obviously did… was that why he was being like this? Perhaps it was his survival mechanism. Perhaps it was just him who was the troll. “Then you shouldn’t really care what I am asking you to do should you?” She met his withering gaze and held it until eventually he backed off.

“Click on faculty.”

At least he had intelligence to know when he was beaten. If not the good grace to handle it well.

----------------

She had talked to a few of the teachers before she had reached this classroom – lab time just over. She was looking forward to something a little more productive than what she had learnt from the School Librarian. All he had to say, cleaning his glasses as he gave her some peculiar looks – which were probably English - was that Willow had simply been a ‘student who returned her books promptly.’ He seemed to think it was a great compliment – though she had got the impression that there was something more going on there. When she had said Willow’s name for the first time… he had reacted. And again when she had asked where she might find the Computer Science teacher.

This should be better… Willow had evidently been good with computers. This teacher had to remember her then didn’t she? Tara hoped so.

This teacher was the first to actually show some concern and ask how Tara had got her name. Security, despite all that happened around here, was obviously something for the hours after sundown and whilst computer security was not something Tara had even really considered she was pleased that this teacher had some clue about it.

“How did you get this list?” the teacher asked Tara, waving the print out of faculty members who had taught Willow Rosenberg.

Tara just gave her an apologetic smile. She might not like Snyder, first, second and third impressions all counted – but she wasn’t going to reveal him as the source of this list.

“Never mind,” Miss Calendar, J, said. “What do you want to know?”

“D-Do you remember Willow Rosenberg, Miss Calendar? Can you tell me about her?” Tara asked without preamble. She knew that she had leapt into the questions much too fast. She hadn’t even waited for Miss Calendar to confirm that she even remembered Willow. Tara needed to hear something about the dream woman. Something other than she returned her books promptly.

“Call me Jenny, only my students call me Miss Calendar,” she smiled at the younger woman who seemed a little nervous. Perhaps it was just the slight vocal problem though. “Sometimes not even them.”

“I-I might be one of your students... I’m coming back to take a few classes, so if you don’t mind…”

“You’re the one coming back to school to graduate, who works for the Mayor?” Miss Calendar’s eyes narrowed a touch, looking her over. The teacher seemed momentarily cautious, then brightened again. “Well anyone who has a full time job can still call me Jenny, okay?” Her smile was one filled with genuine warmth despite that lapse.

Tara smiled. “Okay. B-But Willow, did you know her?”

“Yes I knew her. I liked her… she was the first of my students to, well, you know.” There was an awkward silence.

Here in Sunnydale it was nice to find someone who wasn’t blasé about death, Tara thought. “Y-Yes I know.”

Jenny seemed to drift off for a second before she started to speak again. “She was really great, she could really have been something – she was pretty much everything a teacher could have wanted. Attentive, bright, contributing… always handed her homework in, always got A’s. Always asked for the extra reading that showed someone was actually listening to you at all. But that wasn’t,” Jenny remembered, “the best thing about her.”

“Wh-what was?” This was what Tara was here for. This… to know Willow. To know the best things about her.

“She had a kind soul. She was quiet outside of class, you could see that a lot of the other kids either just ignored her… or didn’t like her. She was brainy, which alienated some, a bit quiet I guess – so others ignored her. She wasn’t exactly a geek, but not exactly popular either. But she was nice. She was kind. Helped me a lot when I first got here. You know, setting stuff up – getting to know the school and the curriculum they had already covered. She didn’t have an unkind bone in her body. And then she was… gone.”

Tara just sat and looked as Jenny remembered. The feelings so clearly emanating, the expressions, from the teacher told her as much as the words could. This wasn't a teacher, like some of the others, who had just paid lip service to the qualities of a student they didn’t really remember – but didn’t want to admit it. This was someone who really knew Willow, and would also have wanted to know her better. Just like Tara did.

But they were both too late.

“She was a little shy I guess… which made what happened all the more shocking,” Jenny told her.

“I-I guess losing your first student must have been tough. It must always be,” Tara agreed. There were bound to have been more from Miss Calendar’s classes over the time after that.

“Oh no… I mean yeah, you’re right about that – but she wasn't the first to die from my class. I pretty much teach the entire school in IT, it’s a mandatory subject and well I’m the only one. I knew the ones who died before her.”

Tara could tell that Miss Calendar felt their deaths too. Then why…? “But you said that she was the first one…” Tara was sure that Jenny had said that, she remembered it clearly.

“Don’t you know?” Jenny looked at Tara surprised then suddenly curious. “Why do you want to know about Willow anyway?”

“Know what?” Tara asked her ignoring the why.

“I’m not sure that…”

“Know what?” Tara pressed, insistent on having the full facts.

Jenny Calendar sighed succumbing to either the force of Tara’s personality or the desire to talk about someone that she had liked. “I thought you knew. Most people did… It was kind of hard to miss.” Her voice was sad… muted, and the feelings that were evident… Tara started to get the most horrible feeling about what was coming.

What other first could there be?

“Willow was killed,” Miss Calendar started, “but she…” The teacher stopped, unable to go on.

Tara didn’t need her to. She knew. “C-came back,” Tara completed. “She came back… as one of them.”

“You didn’t know did you? That she was a vampire?” Jenny could see that Willow meant something to the younger woman, and then to be told that she was a vampire... That wasn’t something that she should have forced onto the younger woman.

Tara ignored the question. Was this why she had been dreaming? Because somehow Willow was still here in Sunnydale? “So she is out there? In town… in the night?” Willow was one of the things that she had to destroy. Oh by the goddess… Willow was one of the things that had killed her family… and in this town, here in the seat of the Master’s power, it was likely that she worked directly for him. She killed for him…

She is my enemy.

Know your enemy Tara. Yes sir.

Why am I dreaming about her? Why do I [b]feel her?

The turmoil in her mind was made up of all the dreams that she could remember, rushing through her once more. All the feelings that she had carried out of the dreams and into her empty waking world. Out of the darkness and into the sunlight. Where the only Willow Rosenberg that there was now could never, ever go.

Tara knew that she should hate Willow now. Just because of what she was, and somehow she couldn’t. She wanted to know why she was dreaming of a vampire. That vampire. That was all. There was no hate. There was no rage. Just curiosity. She fingered the completed carving she had slipped into her pocket after last nights dream, wanting herself to react more, to throw it across the room in some desperate show of hatred. But the carving just brought it all home to her all the more. It was real and it was tangible… maybe just the unconscious force of her mind, maybe an expression of her desire for something else in her life… but why would she betray herself with these sort of feelings – for a vampire?

Because until right now she hadn’t known? Or had she? Did the dreams somehow tell her that? There were things in them that didn’t, hadn’t, rung true. Hadn’t made sense at the time. She had just assumed that it was because they were part of the dreams and dreams didn’t have to make sense. But if you put this spin on it… it started to make a horrible sort of sense.

Maybe I did sort of know, she admitted to herself.

She missed whatever it was that Jenny had said in the middle of all that mental rambling. She shook her head, forcing herself to focus on the moment again. Time enough for all of this later. “S-Sorry, what was that?” she asked.

“Are you okay Tara?” Jenny asked. “I’m sorry if I upset you.”

“N-No. You didn’t. It-it was just a shock. I wasn’t expecting… that. What did you say just now though? Please… I need to know.”

“I just said that… well she isn’t out there anymore. She was killed, or whatever it is you do to vampires.”

“Destroyed,” Tara murmured. “You destroy them.”

I destroy them. In this moment the idea made her feel sick.

“Yeah, well she was destroyed last year. A student here did it. Two of them actually,” Jenny admitted, before slowing and realising what she had said – how it was affecting this woman, and also that she was bound to ask who they were.

Tara did.

“Who?”

------------------------

Talking to him was a bit like talking to a stone. Although she guessed that there were more animate stones around. And she had thought that she was quiet… It wasn’t that this Oz was being obstructive… just monosyllabic. If she asked him a direct question then she would get a nice direct answer. But he wasn't big on volunteering information.

“You killed her then, in-in the warehouse?”

All that had got her was “Yes.”

Fortunately she had already spoken to the other one. They seemed to be some sort of anti-vampire coalition or something – Larry and this Oz – although they had used to do that from the school. Now they were at UC Sunnydale – but neither had admitted whether they were still active. Larry had sounded proud when he talked about their limited success, but Oz? He just seemed to get on with it. Tara knew that was the way that you had to go about it really, if you wanted to be successful and to stay alive.

And that was the first mark of success – staying alive. If you didn’t achieve anything else then staying alive was enough. If you died… you never got another chance.

“You know… that she is definitely d-dead then,” it was a pointless question. Of course he knew. But she couldn’t get over it all… and the worst of it was she didn’t know why she felt that way.

“I dusted her myself. I vote yay.”

Conclusive much? She should really have left it there… but she had one final question for him and wondered if he could give her a better answer than she would have been able to provide if their positions had been reversed. “Wh-what was she like?”

He would have shrugged, she guessed, if he had been a touch more expressive. “A vampire.” There it was. That was what she was. It would have been Tara’s answer if asked about any of her kills. ‘A vampire.’

Well that just said it all now didn’t it? He’d killed her… it. And that was the end as far as he was concerned. Job done. There was no emotion behind his words, neither excitement nor disappointment at the death of the vampire. It surprised her, and she wondered why. For all his reserve… she sensed something about him that she hadn’t been expecting. There was something of the animal in him. Some people had that – a hidden wildness.

In his case well hidden. But not from her. She had enough experience to know that there was something more to this Oz. But at this stage it was just an impression and she had been wrong before.

Besides he'd killed her... killed Willow.

***********
You hear that baby?


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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:59 am 
That was a nice part Katharyn. It brought to light some things that Tara needed to know and showed us some missing characters. It's interesting that Jenny's still alive. :) Guess with Angel not there to kill her, she survived all the rest.



But, once again, I have to wonder what all the information will do to Tara's thoughts about Willow. Can't wait to read her thoughts over the next few parts.






--------------------------------


"Honey, I'm the original one-eyed chicklet in the kingdom of the blind." - Glory



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 Post subject: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:18 am 
I should have thought that Tara asking questions about Willow would eventually lead her to knowing that she had been turned. :) Now, I am intrigued all the more what this new knowledge about Willow would do to Tara. I guess I should just let the story unfold by itself and not do anymore speculations or theories. :)



Yeah, I have to agree: nice part. And I don't know why but I like it that Tara couldn't hate Willow despite knowing that she's been turned. And I like it more that she was wishing that Vamp Willow couldn't have been gone upon knowing that she has been already dusted by Oz. Katharyn, I have to tell you that I'm really lovin' every part of this story. Can't wait for parts 15 and 16. :bounce :bounce :bounce

Edited by: daydreamer at: 4/9/02 1:30:22 am


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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:11 am 
At least it was Jenny who told Tara about Willow. Can you imagine if it had been Snyder? You've written him really well. His concern about the school's grades etc., more important than the students - "It’s always the useful ones who get eaten and never the trolls"

I could paint you in the dark, 'cause I've studied you with hunger as a work of art - Collecting you (Indigo Girls)



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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:46 am 
Kathryn, I know you've already weighed in on the gypsy curse... but we DO still have Jenny.



This gets my brain going. We have Giles, too, even if he's all closed in. We have Oz. Hell, we have Larry! This gives me hope, in a way.



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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:50 am 
No, Katharyn, definitely not filler. I always loved Ms. Calendar and it's great to see her again. Will she reveal that she is a techno-pagan and help Tara? Will Giles? I can't wait to see where this is going, but the journey is so wonderful.

Life is full of changes...The better you are at letting go of things, the freer your hands will be to catch something new. ~from Off The Map by Joan Ackerman
"It's good to be a chicken casserole," Tara murmured before passing out. ~from "Answering Darkness" by Sassette



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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 10:54 am 
Ahhhh, I really liked this update. As much as you pretty much said, "Oh, it's not much ... just some stuff between the last part and the next two" ... I think this was probably an extremely important update.



Tara's new discovery ... hmmm... I just really, really liked all of this - it was great to see Jenny Calendar - and looks like Larry lived, too. Like many of your readers, I always liked Jenny, and without the whole Angel thing, not only does she not die, but she doesn't do anything you could call "wrong" by keeping silent about Angel's curse.



And I love how much this story makes me think ... I'm probably incapable of reading something without wondering what's going to happen, coming up with theories, letting different possible scenarios play out in my head --- and one of the things that I love about this story is that no matter what scenario has jumped into my brain, I've always liked what you've come up with better *G*



And then there's the philosophical stuff ... the whole 'exploring the BuffyVerse' aspects that just kind of make me think about things I hadn't really considered.



I've definitely wondered about the whole 'soul' thing in regards to vampires in the BuffyVerse. It's a pretty obvious question - like, what is a vampire actually >incapable< of without a soul?



In a way, the obvious answer is any positive emotions. But in another way, that's far too simplistic. If a human, with a soul, is capable of great evil, why wouldn't a vampire without a soul be vapable of great good with the proper motivation? Like - people who go through something horribly scarring get all messed up in the head and do bad BAD things, so logically, couldn't vampires go through something horribly scarring (for a vampire) that makes them do good things?



All theoretical, of course, and not necessarily applicable to your fic, but it's stuff I've thought about.



What your story is making me think about for some reason (and I honestly don't know why) is what happens to the human soul when it gets ripped from the body and a demon takes its place?



Does it go on to some kind of Heaven-like experience? Does it take the demon's place in Hell, going through unspeakable torture?



Is that human soul somehow tied to the undead body, even though it exists outside of it? Or does it just stop existing altogether?



If the soul and the body are still somehow connected, what happens to the soul when the vampire is destroyed?



I think too much. *G*



-Sass



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 Post subject: Re: Part 14
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 11:48 am 
LOL, just shows what I think of my own fic. yeah there was some key stuff in that but essentially it was there because it didn't fit in other parts that should have been more interesting.



Part 15 is a slightly humourous piece... but entirely in context, I did if you remember promise you some fun in this. Just a little *wink*



Part 16 though... figuratively might rip your guts out. Be advised well in advance though it is the last time for a long time I think that I will be doing that.



A big theme in that feedback seems to be 'Jenny Yay!' Good job too really...



Leatherqueen - As I have said before some people are definitely better off without Buffy. I often wondered if Joss and co ever really considered that...



Daydreamer - That is the effect that I was looking for regarding Tara's reaction to Willow. Remember she has been dreaming about Willow for over three years. Not all the time... but alot. The sort of dreams that you remember too.



Mollyig - You have a twisted mind if you think I could ever be so cruel as to have Snyder reveal Willow's fate to Tara. That would be taking darkness too far!



Kalita - Yup... Jenny, Giles, Larry and Oz... keep that brain ticking. And the curse... as dead as a dodo. If Jenny was ever going to try that curse she would have done it when Willow died as a mortal but she knows, as I do, that the curse is a punishment - not a blessing and she wouldn't want to punish Willow. Nor do I.



Pixie - Another Miss C yay!*S* Someone is a popular lady in these parts.



Sass - Yup - Jenny's slate is clean. Angel may have brought her to Sunnydale but hey... dust now.*S*



Sass again - As for the whole soul thing - You won't see alot of good deeds from scarred vampires around here - at least not for unselfish reasons. I figure that a good deed done for selfish reasons isn't truly good... more sort of neutral or even bad.



Yup still Sass - The scarring thing is interesting though. Especially in this context. Is a vamp that has been dusted (sort of) twice likely to have been scarred... I never considered it. But as your last suggestion about a certain machine has found it's way in on redraft so this might too. There is a place that this might go funniliy enough - but not for a long time yet.



Yet more Sass - The human soul of someone turned by a vampire... I was thinking about that myself today... funny that.



Thankyou one and all... As the delightful Jo has overcome personal circumstances to get me some more beta here (take a break hun) I can go and redraft part 15 for you now... it's a fun one.



Unlike 16...



Take care!



Katharyn

------------

You hear that baby?





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 Post subject: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 11:50 am 
Hmmmm...I figure this is actually a bit of a disturbing idea, but I've been persuaded your soul in the Buffyverse isn't *you* so much as a vital part--like the mystical equivalent of legs. Not everyone who has legs becomes a marathon runner, but without them it is sooooo much harder. But in fact it practically doesn't matter which soul you get so long as you have one--and almost always the simplest way of doing that is to simply (?) be a mortal human beings because souls just naturally flow into them. As in the case of Darla.



Which means you *can* have positive emotions without a soul, but the process that turns a human into a demon often (not always--look at Cordelia) gets in the way. Vampires are a case in point--they're predators with the instincts of same. Plus they *need* blood to survive, and it evidently is much easier to kill your prey than not.



Personally, I can see all kinds of scenarios established well within the Buffyverse to at least "gray" the darkness that is VampWillow. The show itself showed no less than four! Including one flat-out cure for vampirism!



But I'm aglow with trust and anticipation for Katharyn's story. Methinks she and I share a taste for angst as the road you have to traverse to find anything like happiness. This is a marvelous Chronicle!





"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam



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 Post subject: Re: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:09 pm 
Speaking of chronicles ... I just don't find the use of the word "Chronicle" for this particular fic the least bit pretentious.



I just think it kind of fits.



And yes, without it, it would sound like a dance fic.



As for Zahir's point ... that's incredibly interesting, and not something I had thought of, but it makes sense. No legs = no running, let alone marathon running. So, we get different degrees of "good" with a soul ... or maybe someone just chooses not to run at all - making them bad, even though they have the potential for good.



What's interesting about that is the idea that having no soul is a moral handicap. That doesn't discount doing good things ... it just discounts doing good things for conventional reasons. Maybe a vampire is doing good things to further a greater evil ... or perhaps because they develop restrictions to their behavior by an outside force (ie a chip in the head, or, like in your fic Zahir, a sire's insistence upon self-control and painful punishment for not exercising that control).



My personal interpretation of canon is that vampires can, in fact, fall in love. Lots of people disagree with me, and I can definitely see their point - I just don't buy into it myself. What I temper that opinion with is the idea that even when their motives for an action are that love (which is good) and their action is something good (protecting a loved one) their methods aren't going to change - they're still vampires. They're brutal and violent and they're not going to change their manner of doing things because of love (Zahir, in fact, did a great job with this, keeping Vamp Tara sympathetic by coming up with a completely logical and believable reason that her methods being different than your average vampire's).



As for Vampire Willow ... she's insane. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how Katharyn gets around all of these obvious problems in Tara and Vampire Willow getting together ... because I have the utmost faith that she will (and it REALLY helps that the ending is already written *G* That just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside).



I just don't know how *G*



-Sass



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 Post subject: Re: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:17 pm 
Well how can I pass up that chance to debate*S* Chaos take Part 15 redraft!



Souls are a very dodgy area agreed... Every human has one but how many humans have we seen with a more than a bit of nasty in them. Infact some of them are worse than vampires.



There are demons that appear to lack souls (aside from vampires) who are not intrinsically evil and there are demons that might well have souls too...



Your comment about "legs" is a good illustration and the nature of the vampire as you point it out Z is the key to me. I also like to contrast a vampire with a cat. Yes a cat. Bear with me a moment here. As Zahir has said a vampire is a hunter. A cat is a hunter too. You can feed it all you like, give it treats and it will still show it's appreciation by slaughtering animals and birds (BTW I like cats!) and leaving them as "gag gifts" in your bed.



The hunter comes out - It is, to me, as much a function of the type of demon that forms a vampire as anything else (as seen in the otherwise pretty poor IMHO Angel Pylea quartet. (Okay Fred was good too*S*)) That demon is a hunter and a killer - thus the disdain of vampires for bags of blood which would do just as well. Also I use this (though I do not say it here) for the reason the Master never got his blood plant up and running in this reality. Lack of demand.



I guess that it is fair to say that everyone knows that I have to "grey" the darkness. I will... but not quite by the established methods - and I am absolutely certain that once upon a time, Zahir, I did e-mail you telling you how I was going to resolve this didn't I - or at least strongly hinting?



It think the detail of it will surprise you all in the end... assuming I don't give too many clues away so... shutting up now.



EDITED TO ADD and then there was Sass... re the love thing for vampires. I personally go for a form of love. There is evidence of that I think... However a different interpretation of love to a human who is in love. If you consider yourself to be in love... and this applies to the real world IMHO then who is anyone else to tell you your not? Love above nearly everything else is nebulous and defies description - that is why we write about it so much and always see something new. It is shaped by your personality and experiences as much as a line in a dictionary.



And who says I am going to work around these problems? Maybe I will just plough right through*S*



Thanks for the validation of the title Sass... I have been worried about that since day 1!!





Katharyn

--------------

You hear that baby?

Edited by: Katharyn at: 4/9/02 11:25:05 am


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 Post subject: Re: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:16 pm 
"EDITED TO ADD and then there was Sass... re the love thing for vampires. I personally go for a form of love."



Heh ... the 'and then there was Sass' thing just struck me as funny. *shrug* Don't know why.



There are a lot of valid arguments for the 'form of love' thing. For me it's a real grey area, leaning towards 'they can'. But I think the capacity for love is individual for each vampire, rather like it is for people. Some people just honestly have a greater capacity for love and forgiveness and all those fun things than other people do - at least, that's been my experience, and again, I'll be the first to admit that with more data presented, I could find myself wrong.



But the thing I find intriguing is the mixture of the demon and the person. It's possible that each one had a distinct personality before, and that the resulting vampire is a third distinct personality.



Which begs the question of how much does the person influence the vampire? It's clear that they do ... Vampire Willow has a lot of Human Willow's "I make my own fun" characteristics ... it's just the demon in her finds joy in new places. Like blood and pain kind of places instead of 'hacking a new system' or 'learning Yay!'.



I probably missed my point, but I don't think I had one, so that's okay *G*



-Sass



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 Post subject: Re: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:27 pm 
It is tough to remember how I present this in the fic... god I go on and on and on about some things compared to what I really think on this - so if I can;t remember than I can't be being spoilery!



But basically yeah... the human has a personality. The vampire retains the memory of that person, theire personality and the reactions that they display. The demon comes from elsewhere - but for it to be shaped so "completely" by the human side (Angel's comments in Dopplegangland and the hundreds of dweeb and stereotyped vamps (in a good way)) we have seen then I sort of assume that the demon is effectively a new born at that point... or at least deprived of experiences etc.



The demon is then the host for the memories of what the human was and reacts to those and with them - but without the benefit of a conscience to restrain it and with a desire to hunt and kill etc etc... it figures then that many things transcend the human and the demon to form a third distinct personality.



Not that I am saying I stuck to this view in the fic... though whatver is there has internal consistency.



Infact I better not have stuck to this totally in the fic as one aspect of that will cause me major problems if I did... checking now*S*



Katharyn

--------

You hear that baby?



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 Post subject: Re: Vampires, Speculations, Stuff...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:46 pm 
Katharyn, you did indeed send me some hints via email, but not the actual *means* by which you'll be bringing VampWillow and Tara together. Which is fine--I'm soooooo looking forward to what's going to happen!



And I love your reference to vampires and cats! I love my kitty, but he's a perfect example of what a teacher of mine once said--cats can't let something moving alone. They have to play with it. Its all about being a predator. And woe to any toes moving underneath the blankets!



Myself, I think vampires can love, but its *easier* for them to love other vampires. After all, this is a matter of loving outside your own species. And for a vampire to love a human is something like a tiger trying to mate with a sheep (hence its easier for them to fall for hunters--just as tigers probably find wolves more attractive than cattle).



And Sass--I've long had the notion of a Buffyverse vampire so old he (or she) just doesn't care much about the hunt anymore. The Master was something like that, but I was thinking about a more ambiguous figure--one powerful enough to kill nearly any Slayer but considers not giving in to hunger or rage to be the ultimate expression of power. Just offering it as an idea in case anybody wants to use it.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam



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 Post subject: Re: Fic: - The Sidestep Chronicle
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:03 pm 
Thank you for the updates Katharyn.

:)



It seems like it would be folly to try to offer any feedback after the stuff everyone else has offered...

So I'll go with "I'm reading, I'm intrigued, I'm enjoying, I'm patient/impatient."



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 Post subject: The Sidestep Chronicle
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 4:10 pm 
As for the feedback above, ME TOO STUPID TO REPLY!!!! Drakkenfyre strong, but stupid...we dragons are not real bright but we know incredible writing when we read it.. Please continue, don't let this dragon remain stupid..

"We few, we happy few."
"We band of buggered."



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 Post subject: Re: The Sidestep Chronicle
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:04 pm 
Well see the Human-vamp differences are fewer and further between the the tiger-sheep differences. The H-V are just on a spiritual/metaphysical level, while T-S are completely different species. but while humans can fall in love with Vamps pretty easily, the vamp perspective of humans tends to block feelings. It's usually not until they get past the "happy-meals-with-legs" mentality and see humans as equals/beings slightly lesser than them that they can develop feelings. So maybe Willow can get scarred or start seeing humans differently. Also in Tara's case her supreme hate for vampires of all kind would logically deter the development of a relationship. I don't see how both of them can get over their differences unless Willow becomes a "white hat" so to speak. But hell, it's your story so you can write however you want, and I have the utmost faith in your splendiferous creative abilities. Also, see the sig. Fate WILL bring them together.

--------

Nothing gets in the way of fate. Not time, not space, not distance, no person or creature. Not even death. Eventually fate will bring them together."

-Excerpt from Katharyn's "The Sidestep Chronicle"



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 Post subject: Re: The Sidestep Chronicle
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 8:20 pm 
I have read all the parts up to now you have got me hook. I like what you have done. I'm waitting for the next soon.

Tara: Assume Crash
Positions



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