The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

sfgo2003 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:03 pm

I think it was a huge ratings ploy too..I don't think the show has nearly the draw it did a year ago so the producers said...Well, let's offer the audience a little titilation...Bring on the lesbians...Such bull shit! I do not watch, "The OC," but I read about the relationship and immediately knew the reason for it.

What also bothers me is that is that the writers/producers are not at all interested in examining or understanding lesbian relationships...All they care about is girls being intimate. One show that did care was "One and Again," Ironically, Mischa Barton played a lesbian on the show. It was a major story line in the 3rd, and sadly, final season of the show. But it was beautifully and sensitively done. The character development was amazing and the chemistry between Misha Barton and Evan Rachel Wood was intense. It was very genuine and examined the many facets of first lesbian love. It took me back and evoked many of the same emotions I expereinced in my first lesbian relationship. I found it compelling, moving, and poignant.

Nope...Right now, lesbian relationships are trendy in TV....There soley for the ratings boost that they ineveitably bring for at least one or two episodes. Such a shame!

Cheers!

Wendy

sam7777 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:35 am

Queer Eye for Straight TV

Quote:
They're gay. But these writers are producing some of today's most compelling, and popular, series about heterosexuals

This is a tale of two elections. In November, 11 states considered ballot measures banning gay marriage. All 11 passed. There was also an election, of sorts, in January: the Golden Globe Awards. The TV awards for Best Comedy and Best Drama went, respectively, to ABC's suburban mystery Desperate Housewives and FX's plastic-surgery saga Nip/Tuck. The former is the highest-rated new series of the TV season; the latter, one of the highest-rated dramas on basic cable. Both are water-cooler shows about love, sex, fidelity and lies, mainly among heterosexual men and women.

And both were created by gay men.

A curious thing is going on in the U.S. Even as the nation is writing gays out of the definition of its most exalted relationship, gay writers--like Housewives creator Marc Cherry and Nip/Tuck creator Ryan Murphy--are behind the TV shows that are most provocatively defining straight relationships. HBO's Six Feet Under, the multilayered story of the lives and loves of a family that runs a funeral home, sprang from the mind of gay screenwriter Alan Ball (American Beauty). Before it, HBO's Sex and the City, which set the standard for frank talk about women and love, was created by Darren Star and later run by Michael Patrick King, both gay. (Later this year, King debuts The Comeback, an HBO sitcom starring Lisa Kudrow as an actress trying to revive her career.)

Is all this coincidence? Gay TV writers will tell you that relationships are universal. (If they talk at all. King, Murphy and Star declined to be interviewed for this article.) They have good reasons for saying so. Gay writers run the risk of being labeled as, well, gay writers, and the idea of a gay sensibility conjures a monolithic image of campy queens quoting from What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

Read the rest in the link above. Too bad they can't write ongoing characters rather than these sweeps only lesbians we keep getting.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches
Edited by: sam7777 at: 3/8/05 4:37 pm

Naeryn · **Posted:** Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:37 pm

I think this would be a decent place to make this comment:

This "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche" is largely why I'm writing my own TV show! They killed Tara. It royally pissed me off. So I tossed around the idea for awhile, and I've now begun working on the script for a series premiere of a television show. STARRING lesbians. In high school. It's currently unnamed. One girl starts out depressed. Really depressed. She meets another girl who used to be depressed, when she figured out that she was a lesbian. Then she accepted herself and got more or less over it.
Basically, the relationship - the lesbian relationship - is going to help the first girl to be happy.

I couldn't resist. I threw in a librarian too. Female, mother figure... like a chick Giles, but... less British. And for some reason I keep seeing Amber in that role... :glasses

Onto the cliche. Would it have been so hard to, say, have Willow and Tara watching Xander and Buffy's interactions out in the garden? Maybe Warren is about to 'accidentally' shoot Willow, and Tara pushes her out of the way, taking the bullet for her. You still get to hurt Willow by killing Tara - but at least this way you stay true to who Tara was.

Just an interesting point - Sailor Moon. In the original Japanese anime and manga, Sailors Neptune and Uranus are lesbians, and in a relationship. When it was carried over to North America, they were made into cousins. I find it interesting that the dubbers found it less morally objectionable to have incestuous lesbian cousins than obviously lesbian non-relatives. Hmm.

FloatingRose · **Joined:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:14 pm **Posts:** 62

Naeryn wrote:

I think this would be a decent place to make this comment:

This "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche" is largely why I'm writing my own TV show! They killed Tara. It royally pissed me off. So I tossed around the idea for awhile, and I've now begun working on the script for a series premiere of a television show. STARRING lesbians. In high school. It's currently unnamed. One girl starts out depressed. Really depressed. She meets another girl who used to be depressed, when she figured out that she was a lesbian. Then she accepted herself and got more or less over it.
Basically, the relationship - the lesbian relationship - is going to help the first girl to be happy.

I couldn't resist. I threw in a librarian too. Female, mother figure... like a chick Giles, but... less British. And for some reason I keep seeing Amber in that role...

I like it! I'd definitely watch, cuz I was depressed a lot too before I came out to myself. The thing about Amber being the librarian/mother figure type? Love that idea... the image of Amber wearing glasses popped into my head... I like that mental image. That is of course, as long as they're sexy glasses, and not Jenny Shecter-esque... eesh. (big and chunky...)

Naeryn · **Posted:** Sun May 01, 2005 9:07 pm

FloatingRose wrote:

I like it! I'd definitely watch, cuz I was depressed a lot too before I came out to myself. The thing about Amber being the librarian/mother figure type? Love that idea... the image of Amber wearing glasses popped into my head... I like that mental image. That is of course, as long as they're sexy glasses, and not Jenny Shecter-esque... eesh. (big and chunky...)

Hmmm... emo glasses maybe? But less chunky, wire emo glasses. That could be potentially sexy... I just love the picture of Amber being this sort of mentor big sister/mother figure to two lesbians. It's just... aaah, I love it!

Ben Varkentine · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 10:19 pm

Funny story. In December of last year, I wrote this:

Quote:

This is a few years old because I'm only just getting around to watching the first season of 24 on DVD. But people do know about the dandy use of the cliche in the early "hours" of the first "day", right?

Here's why it's funny. In last week's episode of the fourth season of 24, they brought that "evil lesbian" character back. (She's now apparently an evil bisexual, which I know is much better :eyebrow

)

Tonight, in the first half of the season finale, she walked into an apartment and killed a male character...named Joss. Shot him through the chest, as a matter of fact.

An evil lesbian, killing a character named Joss, in exactly the same way that Tara was killed. Coincidence, or a Kitten on the writing staff? You make the call.

WebWarlock · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 11:57 am

Ben,

That is too fucking great.
Can you provide some more details. This is worth investigating!

I love it.

Warlock

werewolf123 · **Joined:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:19 am **Posts:** 135

webwarlock: I see you like mandy's good neighbor policy, if your neighbor is joss then the only good neighbor is a dead neighbor.
Mandy was dodging an atomic bomb and surrounded by ctu and still thought it important to go next door.

Ben Varkentine · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 5:34 pm

Webby,

Not too many more details than what I said. If it had been just one or even two of those things, I would have dismissed the idea of a connection without a second thought. But all three makes me think it's possible. Maybe not probable...but possible.

Only one word of caution: It's also possible that I misheard and the characters name was "Josh." I don't think so (you hear enough Buffy talk and you get an ear for the distiction), but it is possible.

I tried to check cast lists and summaries, but the part was so small (I don't think he even had one line) there's no listing. I guess I have to wait for the DVD release and subtitles.

werewolf123 · **Joined:** Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:19 am **Posts:** 135

ben
24 Jack fakes death , fades into obscuity to avoid the chinese.
Charmed Halliwells fake death use glamor to avoid the underworld
Miami csi brother fakes death hopes plane to s.a.
You might ask some of your contacts to explain s.t.o.ry . security through obscurity to you.
some one is sending a message but to whom?

unlikelyheroine · **Posted:** Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:48 pm

One of the reasons I am a big fan of the Nikki & Helen storyline on the UK Tv series "Bad Girls" is that they get a frickin' happy ending!

(although other lesbians on the same TV series did not. But at least the pain and despair and the love and goodness appears to be shared equally between the sexualities )

Insanity · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:12 am

I'm not sure, if this is the right place to ask, so dear mods feel free to move this post!

Okay, I've got a probably pretty dumb question. The term "tomboy", what does it mean exactly?

Thanky

Insanity

maudmac · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:40 am

Ah, I don't think we ever made a new "Ask Any Question" thread, probably because it also contained a thread index for this forum and we didn't have one ready. The old one was full of ezboard links.

Anyway, to answer your question, a tomboy is a girl who behaves in a stereotypically boyish way. I was curious about the etymology, so I looked it up in the Wiktionary. I was surprised at how long it's been in use.

Quote:

First attested 1553 and was originally referred to as boisterous boy, later in 1579 as immodest woman, then in 1592 girl who acts like a boy, from Tom (from Thomas; a type of nickname of a common man) + boy.

Insanity · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:36 pm

Oh thank you maudmac!

I had a feeling there had once been a thread for this kind of questions.
Maybe there should be a new one....

Insanity

sam7777 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:09 am

TV just gets worse and worse with the cliches:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pagesix/20050620/en_pagesix/minorityreport/nc:787;_ylt=AtzNJWEbzGl1Glv_Yo7hHJddDxkF

Quote:

A new reality series in which three white, self-described "Christian" families get to pick their new neighbors from among a group of minority families is already drawing fire.

And it hasn't even aired yet.

The show is called "Welcome to the Neighborhood" and it's coming to ABC July 10.

"I will not tolerate a homosexual couple coming into this neighborhood," one of the neighbors, Jim Stewart, says on the show about one of the candidate families — a gay couple with an adopted baby.

"I want a family similar to what we are," asserts another neighbor, John Bellamy, in a statement that would seem to dismiss at least six out of the seven candidate families.

The diverse group includes African-American, Caucasian, Korean, Latino and gay families, plus one family in which husband and wife are heavily tattooed, and another in which mom and dad are devoted to the practice of Wicca, sometimes known as witchcraft or paganism.

The show's first two episodes are filled with statements such as those above.

This could only be good if the "diverse group" can burn the bigots at the stake at the conclusion or to be more biblical, stone them. Since when is bigotry and hatred entertaining?!? F^ck ABC and the horse they rode in on.

justin · _________________ 02/28/2007

If anyones is considering watching Sin City then you should be aware that it features a lesbian character who gets killed off. It's made even more annoying by the fact that it would have been a good film otherwise.

It loses more points by having a character say, "She's a dike. I don't know why since with a body like that she could have any man she wants."

D'uh! maybe she's a "dike" because she doesn't want any man.

idontlikejam · **Posted:** Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:41 pm

well this is a bit of a late comment but about sin city - yeah the way he talked about his lesbian parole officer wasnt pc but its in character, i mean everyone thinks differently.

justin · _________________ 02/28/2007

True, and his comments probably wouldn't have bothered me if the character hadn't been gunned down later on in the film.

This is a bit late but a few weeks ago NCIS decided to head off to clicheville. A lesbian naval officer, after having been dumped, decided to kill her ex girlfriend and used evidence from a ten year old cold case to make it look like the killer from that case had struck again.

WebWarlock · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:34 am

Semi-related, but more in the vien of "the Kittens were saying this THREE YEARS AGO!!"

From the Tribune's Fall TV lineup,
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertain ... .htmlstory

Quote:

THE BAD

Worst trend: Several new crime dramas ("Close to Home," "Killer Instinct," "Criminal Minds") are chock-full of gut-churning violence against women, a trend that's already far too prevalent on network drama (see also, Fox's grisly "The Inside"). Sorry, TV types, but having a plucky female detective or lawyer lock up the bad guy does not excuse the overworked dramatic cliché of women in jeopardy. And why is it mostly women who are brutalized? And often attractive, scantily clad women, at that?

Warlock

sam7777 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:02 pm

Webwarlock: Sad but not very surprising given that the folks that created Fox's grisly "The Inside" (now thankfully cancelled) also gave us the dead lesbian cliche and other violence against women on btvs.

GLAAD reports that GLBT folks are still underrepresented on network TV. No surprise there either:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050830/ap_en_tv/tv_gay_characters

Quote:

Study: Few Gay Characters in New TV Season

Sixteen homosexual characters are depicted in network TV series scheduled for the 2005-06 season, a small increase over last year but still inadequate, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation said Monday.

Out of 710 characters appearing on a regular or recurring basis on the six major broadcast networks in the new season, about 2 percent are gay, lesbian or bisexual, according to the group's annual study.

Last season, GLAAD counted 11 homosexual characters on network shows.

While there is no definitive figure available for the U.S. gay and lesbian population, GLAAD believes the number is "certainly higher" than that represented on network TV, spokesman Damon Romine said in an interview Monday.

"This is a shocking misrepresentation of reality and of the audience watching these programs," Romine added in the report of the group's findings.

Although GLAAD has conducted the study for 10 years, this was the first time the specific percentage of gay characters on TV was calculated, Romine said. The figure is intended to provide a benchmark to measure progress in future seasons.

Many gay and lesbian characters fall into minor or supporting roles in the TV season that begins the week of Sept. 19, GLAAD found. Homosexual characters also tend to lack ethnic and gender diversity.

The study looked at 110 scripted shows and found 16 characters on 14 shows. There were 13 males and three females. Thirteen were white.

"If you're looking at network television to see a good cross-section of our community, you're not going to find it," Romine said. "What you will find is primarily gay white males."

Cable TV is ahead of broadcast in "exploring our lives, families and careers" and features 25 lesbian and gay characters in the new season, the group said.

Among the shows cited on cable with major homosexual characters: Showtime's "The L Word," Comedy Central's "Reno 911!" and FX's "Starved." Broadcast shows with gay or lesbian representation include NBC's "Will & Grace" and ABC's "Desperate Housewives."

I wonder how many of those "minor or supporting" characters bite the dust as Tara did. Prolly most of them given that most TV shows are police dramas like L&O and CSI.

Feena · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:08 pm

Well I suppose it makes a change :spin

BBC1 Messiah IV

Heartbroken lesbian kills herself so mother goes on mad vengeful killing spree, murdering people according to Dante's Inferno.

gabbles · **Posted:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:27 am

Okay, I'm pretty sure The OC has been mentioned, buuuuut....

*Spoilers here onwards*

Did anyone else watch this (would NOT be suprised if no-one had hehe) and seriously groan out loud at how they ended Marrissa and Alex's relationship? True, it was a badly handled relationship from the start, and was just there for ratings, but the way it ended....yikes. With Alex going all drunk and psycho ('unprovoked', of course) and ditching beer cans at whats-his-face and being all "She is MINE, stay away from her!" then getting her big butch mates to come bash up whats-his-face.

Like....SERIOUSLY

Oh, God, did I need to rant...

So, any thoughts? Compact lil lesbian cliche or not?

*hugz*
~Gabs

LtSticks · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:14 am

Hmm...I tend to stay away from the TV series that have "token" gay/lesbian characters, I feel that few writers can really create something for those roles that are real and sincere.

I'll content my need for gay characters on the L word for now

~Emma

Ben Varkentine · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:24 pm

Okay. Some of you may remember back about half a year ago, when I posted about a suspicious happening on 24. An "evil lesbian" killed a character whose name sounded like "Joss," in exactly the same way that Tara was killed. Taken together, it seemed to me possible if not probable that someone on the writing staff was having a giggle.

But, I cautioned, it was also possible that the characters name was "Josh." And since the part was so small it wasn't listed in the various online cast lists and summaries, I'd have to wait for the DVD subtitles to see.

Well, the DVD has been released.

It is not "Josh."

However, it is also not "Joss." According to the DVD subtitles...it is "Joz." So I guess the question of whether this was intended to be a subtle tweak remains in the category of "you make the call."

Me, I think it was, and I'm going to continue to think so until I hear or see something from whoever thought up that name which says otherwise. Because, as I said at the time, one or even two of those connections, I'd write off to happenstance. But three?

And really, how many times have you heard the incredibly-common name "Joz?"

billy · **Posted:** Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:55 am

Some time ago in another thread a kitten had said that More Tales of the City included the cliche, which is exactly what seems to happen when a lesbian couple leave for Jonestown at the end, but in Further Tales of the City you find out they survived and not only is there no cliche but there is a very happy ending. I don't know what happens to them in Armistead Maupin's later novels but based on the reviews I've read I'd be happy if Further Tales is the last of Tales of the City on TV.

Ninlhil · **Joined:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:54 pm **Posts:** 1

I have been following this idea for a while and I realised that something that I'm writing might fall under this cliche'. I'm just wondering, is it possible to have horrible things happen to a character who happens to be lesbian and not have it appear to be BECAUSE she's a lesbian. Niether of them end up dead or evil or anything, in fact they both come out of it stronger, but I realised that I'm kinda just dumping on this poor girl. Is it possible to have bad things happen but not make it seem like it's anti-gay? :pride

justin · _________________ 02/28/2007

Ninihil, I don't think you need to worry.

The cliche generally refers to lesbian characters dying. Which I suppose is the ultimate bad thing that can happen to a person, leaving little chance of any happy ending for that character. The problem being that this happens so often that it creates a meme that Lesbians can never know any lasting happiness.

However just having bad things happen to a lesbian character doesn't make it cliched and certainly not anti-gay.

As an example, in the fifth series of BtVS Tara was atttacked by a hell goddess and had her sanity stolen from her, but there weren't any complaints about it.

Or if you look any any number of the stories in the Pens section you'll see a lot of angst and both Willow & Tara getting dumped on but these aren't considered cliched because, as you say, they come out of these experiences stronger.

So, as I said, from your summary it doesn't sound as if your story fits the cliche.

Or to put it in, rather ironically, a more cliched fashion, it doesn't matter how dark the tunnel gets as long as we know there's a light at the end of it

poser · **Posted:** Sat May 06, 2006 10:39 pm

i'm really glad i read the rules before posting, because i nearly posted a picture of a painting of mine that would've got me in a bit of trouble... anyway, i'm sorry if people are angered by what i'm about to say, and i know it's an argument that's been beaten into the ground, but i've never discussed it in this much depth because most of the lesbians i know didn't bear a grudge this big...

i don't care about the dead lesbian cliche... i love willow and tara... tara was one of my favourite characters and losing her really made me feel genuine emotion, which makes it even more powerful.
not being a lesbian, maybe i just don't understand... but it's similar to the whole gay guy used as comic relief thing eg. jack from will & grace, and when people get down on the camp gay guy as comic relief thing, i really get pissed off because they're just using a character for a purpose on their show... i'm a gay boy and i really couldn't give a rat's ass about what it's saying to the public... if the public are stupid enough to make assumtions based on stereotypes, that's their problem.
they gave willow a new girlfriend and didn't kill her... she may have been a pretty annoying character, and the chemistry may have lacked, but i think that repaired this evil/dead lesbian stereotype everyone's so worked up about. a large chunk of buffyverse relationships have ended in death, it's following it's own tradition there. tara's death was important. i'm glad it happened because of the emotions triggered and the direction it took willow in.

a reply to the l word comment: let's let the writers and creators show whatever types of lesbians they want to show... i mean, queer as folk didn't have a character for every different type of gay man... i didn't complain that they didn't have an alternative/rock gay boy on there.

i'm sorry if i've offended everybody, but these works of art should be appreciated the way they are. they should be respected for their brilliance, not adjusted to work with your agenda... if you want to change a lesbian cliche, write your own series and pitch it to a network.

billy · **Posted:** Sun May 07, 2006 1:18 am

poser wrote:

i don't care about the dead lesbian cliche... i love willow and tara... tara was one of my favourite characters and losing her really made me feel genuine emotion

Maybe I'm alone but I felt no emotion about the death of Tara, and I love watching TV shows and movies that make me cry. I just felt that, like most of season six, it was badly written nonsense made by people who react very badly to criticism.

Quote:

i'm sorry if i've offended everybody, but these works of art should be appreciated the way they are. they should be respected for their brilliance, not adjusted to work with your agenda.

I think Buffy was incredibly good and groundbreaking at times, the L Word less so but still enjoyable, but neither got anywhere close to brilliance.

poser wrote:

if you want to change a lesbian cliche, write your own series and pitch it to a network.

You seem to be saying don't criticise something you didn't make, just be grateful for what you're given or make your own. Do you feel the same about every TV, movie or book review?

poser · **Posted:** Sun May 07, 2006 6:18 am

not at all... having an opinion is one thing... boycotting a show and ignoring anything past the sixth season is something else entirely.
i didn't mean to imply the L word was brilliant... i was a bit rushed... it was pretty good in its first season then dropped to just good. buffy, however, got to the level of brilliance.

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