It's Election Day in the USA Tuesday, MKF!!! 11/08/05

[HC]

Absolutely fantastic that Obama won, I've been in a good mood all day about it.
A real shame about prop 8 though, I only found out when I got home and read this thread. A real shame in what otherwise is a legendary day.

Even so, three cheers to the US for making the right choice!

[writerfreak]

The blood that runs through these veins is half-Irish. Before last night that was the only heritage I'd claim. I didn't hate my country, but I was never proud to be in it, or of it. 23 years of my life, and not once was I a proud American. I played a part. Yesterday morning, I became proud. For the first time in my life, I voted. That part, became a whole. I threw a party after I voted because I was so proud that I had hope for a difference in America. In the country that had been and is so backwards, for so long. As I type the party still continues, and I stare at the flag I hung in my office with a sense of price, and peace, and hope of a new America. Rebuilt in ways we have needed for a eight long years. President-Elect Barack Obama gave me this hope. I was never so proud in America than the moment the word came that he won. He really did prove to America, to me, that indeed Yes We Can.

writerfreak

[MochaVamp]

Well, knowing my state decided to take away my rights but grant new rights to farm animals really puts a damper on my mood.

It's nice to know chickens have more rights to a happy life than I do!

Currently, with 99% of the polls in:

Prop 8 (taking away the right of same sex marriage) 52% yes 47% no

Giving it around a 400,000 victory margin. $73 million combined was spent by both sides.

Prop 2 (providing a better life for farm animals) 63% yes 36% no

BTW, I'm not for animal abuse, I voted for Prop 2.

[Foomatic]

Sad isn't? Can't help but feel California let us down.

[cammy]

its sad they allow the abortion to continue but ban same sexes is it me or is the world screwed up

[Dorothy]

Fucked up world, got my hopes on Obama to fix a thing or two someday soon though.

I love my rights, wish everyone could enjoy them anywhere in this world. The Netherlands aren't good for much lately, but this we can do.

All crazy so-called Christans can go and talk to my mom, crazy mental Christian herself, but respectfull to lesbians even before I was out. She ain't good for much either, but that she can do.

Let's hope Obama can fix some stuff, I bet he can :-) don't know how soon he'll find the time though, with the financial and war and all going on.

[Gatito Grande]

its sad they allow the abortion to continue ... is it me or is the world screwed up

Um, since you asked, cammy: it's you. Reproductive choice is a human right.

GG As is also choosing whom you will marry. It's disgraceful that California, my native state, approved this obscene measure, "Prop Hate" Out

I just hope that lawsuits can make it go away. There's NO WAY that basic civil rights should be abolished by simple 50+ majority vote!

[HC]

http://justinmclachlan.com/08/11/first- ... uit-filed/

I've just been sent this link by a fellow equal-rights-for-all supporter and buffy fan.

[maudmac]

Yeah, I keep having to remind people that there are some problems with the whole "majority rules" thing. Lambda Legal and the ACLU make excellent points in their statements about that lawsuit. It's a fact that if we based everything solely on what the majority of people want, we'd have some really shitty stuff going on, and we certainly would have had an even more disgusting history in the US. I keep asking people who get really hung up on "majority rules" what they would think if the majority of voters decided that _________ people (something they are) should be denied the right to vote or should be rounded up and shot. They never have an answer for that. We have to be protected from the tyranny of the masses and that is what our supreme courts are for.

cammy, you're free to express your opinion about abortion in this thread (or most other threads in this forum, or you could even start a new thread if you wanted). Let's play nice. You'll get a lot of disagreement, I expect, but we can disagree and be civil about it. Don't ever be afraid to voice your opinions here.

[cammy]

the point i was tryng to make is that a society cares more about sexuality preference than life i guess my post was off worked but the things that got turned down and the banning are way off also "human rights" wouldnt that also be the right to luv who we want and be one with them.

no disrespect to anyone

[Willowtree252]

the point i was tryng to make is that a society cares more about sexuality preference than life i guess my post was off worked but the things that got turned down and the banning are way off also "human rights" wouldnt that also be the right to luv who we want and be one with them.

no disrespect to anyone

Sweetie I totally get what you meant and I agree with you I for one think that everyone is free to choose no matter which way you go there should be now offense taken by anyone my friend Sandi and I had a civil union and I am here to say that we have been accepted here in Texas by everyone so far that we have applied to we even are considered married by our Car insurance its all in the company interpreting it so the rest of the country should get off there ass and let people marry who they want we don't tell you who so back off straight people let us live as we wish

[Roger Doger]

Hey fellow kittens, I'll be your token Libertarian this evening. There are a few of us out here in cyberspace. For those who don't know, Libertarians are liberal in the classical sense (i.e. pro individual liberty, pro small government, against the forced redistribution of wealth).

Sorry Proposition 8 passed for you Californians. Like I often say, pure democracy is "two wolves and a sheep discussing dinner." This time, the wolves won. Next time they won't, so keep working toward liberty. By the way, I caught the three "No/Yes" videos on youtube against Prop 8, much in the style of the Apple Macintosh ads. Very cute!

Glad you Obama fans have something to celebrate. I'm far from enthusiastic about him. I'll stick the obligatory "it has nothing to do with his race" right here, since it seems every white person who doesn't want him as President is instantly labelled a racist. I even had a long-time close friend try that argument on me. He's Mexican American. I'm German American. He's married to my sister! We've known each other for THIRTY YEARS! He knows I'm not a racist.

Go figure.

Anyway, my dislike of Obama has to do with his socialist leanings. The whole pro-liberty thing is kind of an anti-redistribution thing, too. Not really looking forward to having the government raid my 401K, nor decide my wife and I (we're both professionals) make too much money. No, we don't make $250K, but I just have this feeling that cutoff number is going to drop.

[cammy]

i also for one feel obama isnt right but my feeling fall into the old "show me your friends and ill show u the person" methodgy and i have nothng against race either we made a great leap this week i just wished it was someone with little less skeletons and yes so far all our presidents have had skeletons galore thanks bush and clinton sheesh

[umgaynow]

I hate to disillusion you, but presidential skeletons go all the way back to Washington and Jefferson...Sally Hemmings anyone? Fact is there is scarcely a president in history who hasn't had an affair or some other unsavory little bunny in his closet...anyway, just saying modern era has not cornered the market on malfeasance in the oval office...I am by no means a racist...in fact my wife has accused me of being a reverse racist...because I think people of color certainly have something to be pissed about in this country...but she is from the south and I the north and as we are discovering the way we were taught history is shockingly fundamentally different...let's just say we have some interesting, educational discussions

I'm also not sure Obama is the best man for the job...I was 100% Hillary, but in the current order of things, despite Obama's lack of experience, anything is better than another 4 years of republicans in office...the country could not survive that...it's time to give america back to the middle class and take it away from the rich corporations who have been raping, pillaging and ruining it since the early 80s...we need to as Hillary said in NH "return to the quaint idea of giving government positions to people who are actually qualified to hold them" We need an end to the cronyism that has made us a global laughing stock...the one thing I am confident about Obama in is his intelligence and I pray that he is smart enough to pack his cabinet with people who really know how to do what we need to get the economy, environmental policies, human rights, the cause of peace and the american public back on their feet

But that's just my opinion...

Sandi out

[maudmac]

Hey, Roger Doger. Nice to have some semi-opposing views!

You know, if I'd really had my druthers, I wouldn't have been voting for Obama, either - I'd have been voting for someone with whom my politics are more in line, someone like Dennis Kucinich. But since the kind of candidates I most favor are totally unelectable in this country, I'll take what I can get (Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama). But even they have all been too far to the right for me. I am waaaay over here on the left grumbling and bleeding from my heart.

Little known fact about me: I was a dues-paying, card-carrying Libertarian once upon a time. I still favor the government staying out of my bedroom and not acting like a nanny about so many things, but...somewhere along the way, I realized that I do want things like socialized medicine, expanded social services, way more gun control, etc. That means taxes! Lots and lots of taxes. And, so, yes, some degree of redistributing wealth. For me, it's probably just basic utilitarianism - I think those things will create the maximum benefit for the maximum number of people. If people could be relied upon to contribute voluntarily to, say, private social service providers, it wouldn't be necessary to essentially force them to. But in the interest of social welfare, I have to say I am in favor of taking more money from people who make more money.

lol, this thread is all over the place!

Anyway, bring on the discussion and diverse viewpoints. I love talking with smart people who have differing views. How else can any of us learn anything?

[Dorothy]

http://justinmclachlan.com/08/11/first-prop-8-lawsuit-filed/

I've just been sent this link by a fellow equal-rights-for-all supporter and buffy fan.

Damn, missed my chance on cheerleading there... How can it have failed? It has good grounds, probably biggot court or something, I'll read the piece more carfully when I get home

[maudmac]

It didn't fail. It just got filed. It hasn't had a chance to fail yet. And the court is the good guy in all this - it was the court that said the constitution should be interpreted to mean that same-sex couples have the same rights to marry as opposite-sex couples.

[onyxsundrops]

Even if I find myself later disagreeing with Obama's policies, etc, I'm currently happy with my decision. For the sake of balance in political power, I felt that it was about time for a Democrat to 'get in'. We barely survived 8 years under President Bush and even if Obama doesn't turn out to be the best President or even remotely close, I am happy that I at least gave him a chance.

[Dorothy]

It didn't fail. It just got filed. It hasn't had a chance to fail yet. And the court is the good guy in all this - it was the court that said the constitution should be interpreted to mean that same-sex couples have the same rights to marry as opposite-sex couples.

Never try to read anything at 6 in the morning while having breakfast and racing to class... doomed to read it all wrong.

I was thinking... It's not prop 8 we should fight (good thing, because that was giving me a headace) we should fight whatever caused the problem. I've got wild plans, but I'll share them when they are more accurate than just very very wild ideas.

[Millerchip77]

maudmac I am waaaay over here on the left grumbling and bleeding from my heart.

I hear you maudmac - I feel the the same. The best thing that ever happened to this country was our welfare state, our NHS might not be perfect but it is preferable to the US system which, after watching Michael Moore's film 'Sicko', I find frankly barbaric. I also hate the language proponents of the US healthcare system use when referring to our NHS as 'socialised' health care, like all the nurses wear a hammer and sickle badge or something. A good welfare state does indeed mean higher taxes but I think it's worth it if you get back what you put in. At the moment in the UK we don't - our NHS is crumbling due to underfunding and our education system, once the envy of the world, is slowly being sold off to private investors - all this from a Labour government, a party who were 'socialist' once upon a time.

I have been many times to Scandinavia - particularly Sweden, a country which taxes its citizens to some of the highest levels in the world. And there I see: More women at the top end of employment, well facilitied schools, an excellent social healthcare system, 18 months leave split between both parents. It may not be perfect but it's a close-to as I've ever seen - and many citizens don't mind paying high taxes because they get so much in return.

My favourite ever politician is Tony Benn - a true socialist and the only Labour MP who became socialist after joining government. One of my favourite quotes from him is: "Only democracy gives us that right, that is why no-one with power likes democracy and that is why every generation must struggle to win it and keep it - including you and me, here and now".

Power to the people - all the people!

[PolarBear]

Anyway, my dislike of Obama has to do with his socialist leanings. The whole pro-liberty thing is kind of an anti-redistribution thing, too. .

Yes, that's part of it, but I don't think either canditate was very libertarian in the whole sense of the word. Obama wants more redistribution, and McCain isn't so much for the individual rights (gay marriage at least) and when it comes to Palin, well, I don't even want talk about her.

I consider myself a libertarian too. But it's mostly in the sense "I don't want the state to tell me or anyone how to live my life". I accept paying taxes if I get something in return. There are other things that matter too. That's why I'd have chosen Obama over Mccain in a heartbeat and I have many friends who I know to agree with me.

I agree with what maudmac wrote above. Keep the discussion alive, that's the way to change things, and I'm not only talking about the presidential elections. If you think the world needs to be different, keep talking about it.

[Adsum]

Here is a list of some of the proposition 8 supporters:

http://www.afterellen.com/node/39787

There is also a suggestion to boycott these supporters.

[GayNow]

There is a nation-wide movement happening this Saturday (November 15)

Join the Impact is calling for help from the GLBTQ Community. You can see if your city is listed.

Unfortunately, I will be unable to attend. I take care of my Grandmother on Saturdays. But I wanted to spread the word as best I can.

Carleen

[Zooeys_Bridge]

Haha, yeah Northampton!

Thanks, Car, this is good to know!

[Zooeys_Bridge]

I don't know if here is the appropriate place to post this, but I figure better somewhere than no where.

Last Wednesday we had our own candlelight vigil to reflect the one in California about Prop 8. It was really nice, a lot of people came out to show support. The organizer read a letter she wrote and we all signed it. I think it's quite a beautiful letter, and I wanted to share it with all of you. People are listening and doing something(even if it starts off as just a letter) and no one is doing it alone.

Dear President Elect Obama,

Firstly congratulations, on a well-earned and astounding victory. The well-wishes of all at this school are with you. Secondly thank you. Thank you for inspiring our generation in a way that hasn’t been seen in long decades, thank you for waking us from our apathy and showing us that there can be a way for us to be represented in the political system, and thank you for reminding us that hope is real and we can make change.

Two nights ago you stood before cheering crowds in Chicago and viewers on televisions across the nation, the entire world watching. Your speech brought tears to the eyes of many on this campus. Once again thank you for your enduring optimism. Also thank you for your support of the No on Proposition 8 campaign in California and your recognition of the importance of equality for all.

But Mr. President there is work yet to be done. On November 4 this year while so many walls were crashing to the ground, while a country was being given something to believe in again, at the very moment you were speaking as the world watched, walls were being built. They were being built in Florida and Arizona where votes ruled that marriage should be defined as between one man and one woman; they were being built in Arkansas where voters ruled that unmarried couples (including gay partners who are not considered legally married in the state) should not be allowed to adopt children, and they were being built in California where the civil rights granted gay partners were so cruelly ripped away.

Two nights ago in your speech you said, “I will listen to you, especially when we disagree.” We know you disagree with the idea of federally mandated gay marriage. We know that you believe it should be the business of states to decide who is married and who is not. One this issue we disagree. And now we ask you to listen.

There are now 27 states in our union that do not allow gay marriage. 27 states in which, because of who they love, people are denied the basic rights of couples. 27 states in which gay Americans are not allowed to visit their partners’ bedsides in hospitals. 27 states in which for gay Americans there is no equality.

Most people will tell you that this is because the country is not ready. They are not ready to accept the reality of committed gay relationships. They are not ready to put aside the homophobia that is deep-seated in the laws and the minds of this country. My question to you Mr. President-Elect, is why should these people be rewarded? How many sexist men were ready for women’s suffrage? How many segregationists ready for integration? When has real change ever happened by simply waiting for people to be ready?

For this reason we are asking for your support of a Federal Gay Marriage Constitutional Amendment making Gay Marriage legal for all states in the union. The United States was founded on the principle of equality for all. What equality is more basic than insuring that two people who are committed to one another have rights regardless of their gender? There is nothing more American than making this possible.

Thank you for your time and consideration, Mr. President-Elect. We will keep fighting for justice, for equality in life and in love for all Americans. For as you have taught us, through hope anything is possible.

Respectfully yours,

The Students of Smith College

[Dorothy]

I feel the urge to get on a plane and join in... But I don't know if I'll be allowed to visit the states for this purpose.

a friend of mine faced some serious questioning when she went on a vacation with another friend. They were taken out of the line in the airport and were interogated about why they wanted to go to the usa and if they were lesbians :s

this all happened years ago but still... are they really that strickt about letting people in?

[Millerchip77]

I feel the urge to get on a plane and join in... But I don't know if I'll be allowed to visit the states for this purpose.

a friend of mine faced some serious questioning when she went on a vacation with another friend. They were taken out of the line in the airport and were interogated about why they wanted to go to the usa and if they were lesbians :s

this all happened years ago but still... are they really that strickt about letting people in?

This happened to a friend of mine - her g/f lived in Chicago at the time - they hauled her into an immigration office and went through all her luggage - she had sex toys in there - the guy didn't know what they were so she had to explain...

OT it really heartens me that there is a growing anti-prop 8 movement - don't give up until you have what you want. I will be sending supportive vibes from here and hopefully getting the academic association I belong to to issue a statement of support.

[Dorothy]

Flight tickets look cheap and I have next week off if I get accepted to the job I applied for. so fingers crossed, I might be flying to LA
(I'll make sure not to pack my toys )

[singgirl]

didn't that happen on the L word? Anyway, glad to hear about this prop 8 protest, I'm going to be there for the Baltimore one on Saturday. I'm using my free printing prvilages at the college to get some fliers up on campus tomorrow.

[Dorothy]

cool! I'm still trying to book a hostel but my card won't work
(I dont want to have an expensive planeticket and then find out I don't have a place to stay)