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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

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Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun May 12, 2002 3:19 pm

One more thing...

You might want to add [i:0e3cb17007] Northern Exposure[/i:0e3cb17007] to your list of shows that have done the dead/unhappy lesbian clich.
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Sun May 12, 2002 3:28 pm

Also add Babylon 5
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Elianna » Sun May 12, 2002 3:39 pm

I think that BBOvenGuy's addition to the FAQ(#5) is a very important point to use, because it goes to underscore the fact that a choice _was_ made in the planning of this episode.

And great job with writing this, everyone who had a hand in it. You did a really wonderful job of explaining everything in a very succinct, and clear, manner.

-Elianna
Elianna
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Sun May 12, 2002 4:10 pm

Willowlicious,
Just to clarify, my post wasn't commenting on your FAQ (which seems very well-organized, btw, even if I disagree with some of the premises). I originally posted it on its own, but Xita moved it here to consolidate threads.
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Warduke » Sun May 12, 2002 4:21 pm

Amazing FAQ Amy and Kyraroc.
Warduke
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Sun May 12, 2002 5:05 pm

Just FYI, I'm working on what I hope will be getting close to my final revision suggestions right now, after which I'll bounce it over to Willowlicious again for another once-over . . . but hopefully this will be in shape reasonably soon!

--- KR
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Sassette » Sun May 12, 2002 5:15 pm

I'm sure everyone agrees with me (I always feel really >really< arrogant when I say that, but this time I mean it ;) ) when I say that we're damn impressed with it to begin with, damn impressed at how fast you've gotten it up here, and we're damn impressed at how quickly you're revising it *G*

Wow, these kittens sure are a mean bunch - putting together their arguments in a clear and concise way like that. How insidiously Evil these Lesbians are! How dare they use logic and reason against Ego and a Hearty Laurel-Resting!?

-Sass
I'd say something about how that last paragraph should be taken as said with tongue firmly planted in cheek, but I realize such a comment would cause this thread, like so many others before it, to crash into the fiery depths of smutdom.
Sassette
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kins78 » Sun May 12, 2002 5:28 pm

[quote:0462fc3039][b:0462fc3039][i:0462fc3039]Quote:[/i:0462fc3039][/b:0462fc3039]
"Kins78, don't you worry. This was put on "rush order" specifically to get it over to the Succubus Club well in advance of Fury's interview. I hope to have the whole thing finalized by late tonight or tomorrow at the latest."
[/quote:0462fc3039]

Great, thank you. I was thinking though, that perhaps I should hold off on sending it to them and let you guys or one the mods send it instead. It might have a greater impact that way, you know, receiving it once as a statement from all of us, rather than from a whole bunch of seemingly unrelated people. I check the board often, so I'll look out for what everyone thinks.
kins78
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby areslei » Sun May 12, 2002 6:25 pm

Just wanted to throw in my thank you to you all who put together the FAQ's. Simply brilliant! Covered all points and damn well written. :-)

Kins78...kinda like a petition? sounds good. as long as they see it.
areslei
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kyraroc » Sun May 12, 2002 7:19 pm

Got that e-mailed off to Willowlicious, and it's only one AM. Either I'm getting quicker with practice, or it's getting close to being done. :) Thanks for everyone's great comments - we're trying to incorporate as many of them as possible.

BBOvenGuy, I think you make great points that deserve a section, but I'm worried that some of it (such as stating that Willow is in the same place she was last year) comes across as literary criticism, which, while it may be entirely correct, may also be too easy to argue with (for example, it could be argued that this year is a deliberate expansion of the events of last year and therefore does indeed further the story, etc.) Would you have a problem with a version that stuck a little more closely to the single point that ME could have chosen to take another route to tell their story, but didn't? This is my personal opinion, BTW, so if everyone thinks I'm wrong on this one, obviously no problem with keeping it as you wrote it. And let me reiterate - I think it's a great post; I'm just wondering about a part of it.

SuperZONic, When Night is Falling is one of my favorite movies, and I'm also a big fan of Being John Malkovich. :) But I also think things do still have a long way to go yet. We did try to acknowledge the ME has done an amazing portrayal of a lesbian relationship on Buffy, and I will also be personally thrilled if Tara does indeed come back. But I think both of those things can be true without invalidating our point; Tara being brutally shot right after sex falls right into the lesbian cliche and is going to effect people as such, whatever happens before or after that event.

My housemate behind me is telling me I'm obsessed with this. But she was also kind enough to say that if I'm obsessed with anything, this is probably a good thing to pick.

--- KR
kyraroc
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun May 12, 2002 7:41 pm

Yeah, that would be fine kyraroc. Just take off the first paragraph and start with "if Joss wanted to carry Willow's magic addiction to its most extreme" in the second paragraph and add on the revised third one I did in the later post.
BBOvenGuy
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby kpmuse » Sun May 12, 2002 8:15 pm

Beautifully done FAQ Amy and Kyraroc. You have represented the Kittens with intelligent points and with grace.

You can add Dark Angel to your list of tv shows as Original Cindy's lover died last year right after they got back together.

I've heard a new question on many boards out there. Why would any creators put any gay characters in their show if they can't do what they want with them? If the fans act with such anger if they hurt the gay characters, why bother?
It seemed like alot of folks out there are asking that question. So I wanted to raise it here. I don't have a decently crafted answer just now, so if anyone thinks it should be in and wants to give it a whirl.
kpmuse
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby maudmac » Sun May 12, 2002 9:33 pm

None of this is directed at you, [b:c1a5daf55d] Kristine[/b:c1a5daf55d]! Not one drop, except to say that those are excellent points and ones that should be addressed, if not in the FAQ, then in general.

Why won't they understand that no one is upset just because they "hurt the lesbians"?!? No one, not any of us, not anyone anywhere has said that GLBT characters must never be hurt. That is NOT the issue. The issue is fairness. If there's fairness and balance, I personally have fewer problems with that. Big IF there.

Although there would still be the larger issue of the fact that there aren't any other long-term lesbian relationships on broadcast TV. If ten percent of all TV characters were gay and at least half of them in long-term, stable, loving relationships, then YAY, bring on the evil lesbians! (Who are often hot as all get out.)

No one is upset when the gay characters, along with all the other characters suffer angst in their lives or relationships. However, the crucial element there is "along with all the other characters." If gay characters truly are treated like everyone else, I mean TRULY, there's no problem. Wanna throw an evil gay man in that prison full of other evil men? No gay cliche there. Because he is being treated TRULY like all the other characters. But gay characters are almost never TRULY treated like other characters. (In the case of W/T, for example, their sexual expression was never treated like the other characters' sexual expression. Not even in SR, which went further than we've ever seen them.)

If the gay characters get the good and the bad in the same doses as the other characters, that's fine. If we'd seen Giles and Anya murdered in seasons 4 and 5, then seeing Tara murdered in season 6 wouldn't pack quite the same punch it does from a political or social perspective. If we'd seen sex as often and as graphic between Willow and Tara as we've seen between the other couples, there'd be zero ranting here about the unfair way the show treats same-sex relationships. I dare say that, though as shippers we'd be devastated to lose Tara, it would be all personal for most of us, and largely devoid of the political element it now has, due to the unfairness of their portrayal.

Because, of course, they weren't truly treated like the other characters. They got an extra dose of the bad, and a really skimpy dose of the good. If we'd had a season of EvilXander a couple years ago, VW wouldn't be such an outrage. Those folks who are saying that W/T were treated like everyone else would actually have a valid point and their comments wouldn't be so offensive.

As far as fear of including gay characters goes, I think it's kind of an offensive question to begin with. It's like asking, "What's the point of having African-American characters if I can't have them all be sassy or drug dealers or if I can't have them all eat fried chicken and watermelon if it [i:c1a5daf55d] serves the story?[/i:c1a5daf55d]" Who would even ask that question at all? Just don't serve that story in the first place.

I can manage to write queers without invoking cliches. Because I know the cliches. I can manage to write African-American characters without invoking the cliches. Because I know the cliches. I would never dream of writing a character who was of a type which with I am not familiar without first getting a consultation with someone who knows better than I do. It's that simple.

If you are familiar with that type of character and well aware of how they have been portrayed offensively, don't portray them that way. If you are unfamiliar with that type of character, get a consultant. For GLBT characters, GLAAD and other organizations are often happy to lend a hand in helping craft an accurate, non-offensive portrayal.

There is an advocacy group for [i:c1a5daf55d] everything[/i:c1a5daf55d] any character could possibly be. Wanna write about a transgendered, blind, Zoroastrian Little Person, but not sure you can pull it off? You probably can't! Get on the internet, spend five minutes, and voila! You have contacts in the trans, blind, Zoroastrian, and Little People communities. Most of whom would jump at the chance to advise you on creating a fair and accurate portrayal. It's easy.

And it's often even easier than that. It's often as easy as asking your friends who are different from you to help you understand what being like them is like, so that you can write characters like them accurately. Okay, the transgendered, blind, Zoroastrian Little Person was a stretch, but surely no TV writer in America does not know a single gay or lesbian person.

Good writers are never ashamed of what they do not know, only ashamed if they don't seek to educate themselves. Good writers know they're ignorant of a lot of things. There is no shame in asking for enlightenment. A good writer knows this and does it. Often.

That's just my personal opinion, though.

Y'all, check this out. The spellchecker wants me to change [i:c1a5daf55d] transgendered[/i:c1a5daf55d] to [i:c1a5daf55d] transponder!!![/i:c1a5daf55d]

Well, I thought it was funny. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, it's not funny at all. I'm outraged. I'm putting the spellchecker on My List.

[i:c1a5daf55d] Super huge edit here. Originally done to correct one tiny little typo. But I couldn't just fix that. No, I had to go all ranty, just when I thought we'd all gotten the ranting out of our systems and things were getting back to normal. It totally changed and actually kinda muddled the whole post.[/i:c1a5daf55d] :mad
maudmac
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby VampNo12 » Sun May 12, 2002 10:48 pm

I just want to applaud Willowlicious, Kyraroc, and everyone else who has added to the FAQ. The points are clear, concise, and eloquently point out the lesbian cliche, and how it applies to W&T. Amazing job, and I wanted to point out one of my friends who watches the show sporadically didn't believe W&T fit under the cliche. However, after I showed him the FAQ he finally understood, and it changed his mind.
VampNo12
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Sun May 12, 2002 11:35 pm

Once upon a time Willow and Tara fell in love. They didn't have technical sex, they had metaphorical magical sex. lesbian sex=magic. Family, Joss' episode connected gay = wiccan and that the key bond between w/t was magic.

Yet somewhere in season 6 magic metaphor changed.. why.. well not because of the story but because of where ME had decided to go. They had decided that willow was going to go evil, corrupted by magic. So magic was now drugs. Magic wasn't about love anymore it was about addiction. And why did ME do this, because they were anticipating the argument lesbian sex and love corrupted innocent willow into something evil. But you know what you can't erase it.

In the end.. Willow tries lesbian sex, likes it, tries it more and more, gets real proficient till she becomes addicted to it. And it corrutps her soul till she becomes rotten to the core.

Well, thanks a lot ME , we got it now.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Unregistered(d) » Mon May 13, 2002 2:03 am

First off brilliant work. Someone should send this around, be it Salon, other Buffy boards, EW, Wanda, Herc whatever, whoever just put it out.
Just 2 suggestions, and feel free to take 'em or leave 'em.
First off remember the show is based around subverting cliches, that was the shows original premise, that it falls straight into one that is so insulting to many, makes it even worse.
2nd Buffy is built on metaphors and subtext, we've seen repeated examples of it, you can't just turn around and say 'Oh yeh except in this case'. Doesnt work, people analyse the show and this is the message, the subtext they will find in Tara's death.
Unregistered(d)
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby tyche » Mon May 13, 2002 2:33 am

Excellent FAQ, I really want to go and get it tatooed on the chests of certain ME staff.
btw, another interesting book on the portrayal of gay and lesbian characters (focusing on theatre as opposed to film and TV) is [i:42e4563001] We can always call them Bulgarians[/i:42e4563001]. I think it may be out of print and I'm at work so I can't look up the names of the writers, but it's well worth a read.
tyche
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Willowlicious » Mon May 13, 2002 3:29 am

Today's wildfeed has left me with a few more harsh things to point out about Willow's descent into outright "evil." We've argued over the use of this word before, but, correct me if I'm wrong, ME is trying to show that Willow is evil in "Villains." The wildfeed seems to make this bleakly clear.

More additions, more revising to come.

Xita, excellent point about magic/lesbian sex. I'll try to work it in. I wish I could get some good sleep so I could write worth a damn.

Amy
Willowlicious
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Mon May 13, 2002 3:29 am

Xita,
Then why didn't it make Tara evil? Why is Tara, the one person who has *always* been portrayed as a lesbian, and the most magically-skillfull (as opposed to powerful) person on the show, unambiguously the nicest, most innocent, most responsible, and least evil person there? Agreed that the Magic-as-crack-addiction storyline was really, really poorly done; but even there, there was no suggestion that *Tara* was in any danger from her own magic use.
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Mon May 13, 2002 3:33 am

Tara's dead her lesbianism lead to death.. karmic.. thank you .
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Mon May 13, 2002 5:53 am

Got to disagree there. Further discussion via e-mail.
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby wizpup » Mon May 13, 2002 6:18 am

Thankyou Amy and Kyraroc.

I have spent so many hours trying work out how to explain this to various people and trying to come up with all the examples and arguments without my head exploding.

You have done a fantastic job with this FAQ. I can see it being a resource that is well used, even a little dog-eared or thumbed round the edges in the weeks/months to come.*s*

And also, to be honest, I've started to get a tiny bit pissed off reading posts on every conceivable thread from people who either don't get it, or want to argue the toss again. For those of us who do get it, it would be nice to have some of the other threads back.

So, at the risk of repeating myself, thankyou!

jo x
wizpup
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Thanatopsis » Mon May 13, 2002 6:22 am

I know this is probably already been covered, but gotta chime in here, that it's all about perception. People are always saying Television is so great because it brings new worlds, individuals they normally wouldn't come in contact with into their homes and it helps with understanding, etc. So even if Lesbianism didn't MAKE Willow evil, it does show that it has bad consequences which is in some ways worse, espeically since Tara obviously "recruited" Willow to the "dark side"

[b:1e4f926029] edited to make sure people know the above is sarcasm.[/b:1e4f926029]

On other notes, great job to everyone who worked on this, definitely articulated the issues I have with this better than I could.
Thanatopsis
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Mon May 13, 2002 6:28 am

It's sarcasm but you know it is what the show is saying, i don't care what the intent is. The fact is magic corrupted willow, tara introduced willow to a more serious side of magic, magic was a metaphor for lesbian sex.. the connection is there..
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby allenw01234 » Mon May 13, 2002 6:46 am

One quibble with Point 6:
Are you sure Robia LaMorte wanted off the show when Jenny died? I'm not saying she didn't, but I haven't seen any quotes that she did. She wasn't crazy about coming back as the First Evil for religious reasons, but that's a different issue.
allenw01234
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby xita » Mon May 13, 2002 6:48 am

Robia left because Joss wanted her out. At the time she was someone who had religious objections to the content of the show and expressed it often.
xita
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby ruby » Mon May 13, 2002 7:17 am

Excellent, excellent work. I just posted to xita's "live and love" thread and then came over here and *voila*! Everything I was trying to say, only much better articulated. Thank you.

Right now I'm a little too overcome with conflicting emotions (chiefly anger and sadness and disappointment) to speak my mind with anything close to levelheadedness. Mine is the head things would roll off of. So I deeply appreciate your thorough argument and your reasonable tone.

It makes so much sense. Kind of makes you wonder how ME could stoop so low, doesn't it?
ruby
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Thanatopsis » Mon May 13, 2002 8:09 am

[quote:7595520a76][b:7595520a76][i:7595520a76]Quote:[/i:7595520a76][/b:7595520a76]
the connection is there..
[/quote:7595520a76]

I agree. Don't think that with my sarcasm means that I agree with what's being done, because I don't. I more meant no matter how much Joss, Marti or anyone says they didn't mean it that way, people are going to see it how they want to. And you're right. Having the magic be subtext for so long and then turn Willow into a magic addict doesn't help paint a good picture of lesbianism either.
Thanatopsis
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Spectacles » Mon May 13, 2002 8:34 am

What an absolutely *brilliant* piece of writing!

I'm holding out hope that Tara will somehow be resurrected and the finale arc will make this mostly morbid season at least coherent if not finally uplifting, but, by godz, you folks have beautifully nailed so many of the issues raised if she isn't and it doesn't.

I do hope this excellent, persuasive FAQ is read not only by ME but by other producers and writers.

Thank you.
Spectacles
 


Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

Postby Unregistered(d) » Mon May 13, 2002 8:48 am

Willowlicious(?),

the FAQ is a great piece of writing! You elegantly bring up great points...nice eye-opener.

Are you planning on publishing this writing outside of the internet? There are many many journals that would probably love it!

Only one minor critique--about the death of Tara compared to the others that died and the foreshadowing of their deaths. Tara's is sudden but isn't that a reality for many people in the real world?

Great job for those who were involved with this "essay"! I wish I had this when I was teaching Women's Studies: lesbians in the media. :D
Unregistered(d)
 

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