Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[relativegirl]

[quote:bb506ef4f8][b:bb506ef4f8][i:bb506ef4f8]Quote:[/i:bb506ef4f8][/b:bb506ef4f8]

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I actually think that the DMW was a long time coming. there were hints for a few years. So I dont think it came out of nowhere.

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[/quote:bb506ef4f8]
I completely agree with you [b:bb506ef4f8] Destroyer[/b:bb506ef4f8]. I also agree with you that we saw the wrong DMW and I believe they handled it very poorly. In my opinion, the best exploration of a Dark Magic Willow is in "Answering Darkness" by Sassette which is one of the fictions posted on this board in the completed Willow / Tara fiction thread. I'm loathe to spoil it for anyone by discussing the details, but suffice it to say that in that story we see a Willow who does make choices which hurt her friends and even her lover and yet her actions are utterly consistent and believable with the Willow created by ME. Which tells me that the DMW storyline was viable, interesting and even fascinating, if done right. But it [i:bb506ef4f8] wasn't[/i:bb506ef4f8] done right by Joss or ME. And it completely escapes me how one kitten can take that story line and completely nail it, yet Joss and his bevy of highly paid professional writers can utterly botch the same idea. Makes me think the wrong people are taking home big bucks as professional writers.

[RealitySpeaks]

First in answer to a Q:
In theory political correctness (PC) is a good thing about giving people their space and encouraging a wide range of opinions and lifestyles. In reality it means self-censorship, cultural bum-kissing and death of freedom of expression.
PC tends to strengthen and cause negative differentiation. Instead of focusing on what the members of particular group or society might have in common, it focuses upon what they do not. Being a corrupting influence, PC is useful only for theoretical discussions by the politically nave or as a dangerous tool for authoritative political leaders with ambitions of their own.

This group should stop perpetuating a destructive culture of victimology and stop trying to harness political correctness as a tool for imposing your subjective viewpoint/feelings on the death of Tara and evilness of ME to other people.

I am not saying that you are not allowed to (or should not) express your opinion in public. But after a certain time and after a certain number of repeated defamatory arguments your publicly expressed opinions only serve to create differentiation and misgivings among others.

The Tara/Willow relationship helped removing barriers between the lesbian minority and the majority. You should stop rebuilding these barriers.

[Kieli]

I was wondering when RS was going to make another appearance just to hear himself talk. Political correctness is a term I believe that the disgruntled majority, who already enjoy almost every freedom in our society, have twisted and turned into something nasty and something to be discouraged.

PC is only a corrupting influence when persons on BOTH sides abuse it (including people like yourself who continually come here and tell us to stop bitching be satisifed with our lot in life). It is people like you that are dissenters against "political correctness" because you would have others bury their heads in the sand rather than correct or even address the real issues at hand. The [i:fd7e086b31] idea[/i:fd7e086b31] behind PC is not the problem, it is the [i:fd7e086b31] people[/i:fd7e086b31] that misuse or abuse the idea or the concept that is problematic. Now just who is to blame is actually more a matter of opinion than true fact or observation as your clearly biased and uninformative post suggests.

When people feel that their voices have not been heard, they will repeatedly try to get peoples' attention. If that bothers you, you know where the door is. Even though it has been constantly said that you aren't welcome here, you still come here and try to tell us how wrong we are. I've yet to see any proof where you are more pristine than we are or above any of us. In fact, you probably are worse than us in that you actually claim to have all the answers. The W/T relationship helped to show that the barriers are present; we WISH that they helped to remove the barriers but, in truth and in reality, we all know that is not so when homophobia and the like still exist and the cliche/attitudes are still being perpetuated.

Are you a lesbian? Do you know for a [i:fd7e086b31] fact[/i:fd7e086b31] of the barrier removals you speak? Do you have ANY real experience being a homosexual and living in this world today? If not, go back to your dark apartment and revisit your conspiracy theory. It leaks like a sieve.

T.

[Sheridan]

[quote:0b0e393b27][b:0b0e393b27][i:0b0e393b27]Quote:[/i:0b0e393b27][/b:0b0e393b27]

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This group should stop perpetuating a destructive culture of victimology and stop trying to harness political correctness as a tool for imposing your subjective viewpoint/feelings on the death of Tara and evilness of ME to other people.

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[/quote:0b0e393b27]

By this group do you mean the Kittens or lesbians? Because I'm sorry to have to disappoint you [b:0b0e393b27] Realityspeaks[/b:0b0e393b27] but the two are not one and the same. There plenty of us who regardless of sexuality view the treatment of the characters as pathetic and disappointing. If anyone put up a barrier it was ME and Joss when they decided to use a tired cliche for their season climax. As to imposing our subjective view, well given your choice of name you have clearly decided that you represent some objective outsider without any bias, agenda, or predjudice of your own. Your attitude to the lesbians kittens seems to be summed up as 'Be grateful for what you were given and shut up.' This group does not seek to impose it's views, and you will have seen from other posts we are more than happy to enter in to a discussion. What no one here is interested in is being dictated to by someone who: [b:0b0e393b27] Just. Doesn't. Get. It.[/b:0b0e393b27]

[The Destroyer]

Guess that was my comment that started all this. not a lesbian myself, but I think I can weigh in.
I see your point, but I agree with Kieli that political correctness is only corrupting when both sides abuse it.
To be fair, I have seen gays act the victim for their own purpose, but thats rare, and you get all extremists in all avenues of society.
Unfortunately that is used by those diametrically opposed to such lifestyles to 'prove' that there is no sense behind the PC.
The issue here is that realityspeaks (I think, and sorry if I'm wrong), raised the idea of political correctness.
I live in England, and here we have a paper called the Daily Mail And every time some liberal suggestion involving minorities is raised, its always political correctness has gone mad. Its used to bash minorities, to tell them to stop whining (well, we let you live. What do you want, blood?).
I dont agree with everyone on this board, and I dont agree with all that the FAQ says, but I think campaigning to get a better life is not the same as whining and acting the victim. Maybe when things are truly equal for all you might have a case.
Sorry for this overlong and illogical rant

[Sheridan]

[quote:bf8da2c6bc][b:bf8da2c6bc][i:bf8da2c6bc]Quote:[/i:bf8da2c6bc][/b:bf8da2c6bc]

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Sorry for this overlong and illogical rant

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[/quote:bf8da2c6bc]

I think that was very eloquent [b:bf8da2c6bc] Destroyer[/b:bf8da2c6bc]. I also live in the UK and yes 'political correctness' has become a stick to beat up anything that's too liberal. Imposing rules on the police for dealing with racial minorities was 'political correcness gone mad' until Stephen Lawrence revealed the thruth about the attitudes of the police force. Attempts to repeal Section 28 or equalize the age of consetn are 'political correctness' rather than a simple matter of fairness. Minorites are always going to be sensitve to negative images when there are so few positive ones to balance them out.

[Kieli]

Politcal correctness as a concept has the same problems that Affirmative Action does: it started out as a well meaning plan to help draw attention to inequalities, prejudices and attitudes within our society and to rectify the problems stemming from them. However, like all things, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch and create such attitudes as the one RS displays. One can not make sweeping generalities and lay the huge burden of proof on an entire group of people who may or may not as [i:b7b48ed6cc] individuals[/i:b7b48ed6cc] be involved with said concept. They may or may not benefit but their active involvement still remains to be seen. The burden of proof then should be required of dissenters and those who cry wolf on both sides of the fence. But I still disagree highly with RS's [i:b7b48ed6cc] opinion[/i:b7b48ed6cc] or observation since I can not call it a truly logical argument. It lacks proof or substantiation.

Toni

[Willowlicious]

[b:0c42aa4a31] "This group SHOULD..."[/b:0c42aa4a31] Wow. The word "should" isn't even used as a directive in the FAQ. It is merely an explanation of why what was done was so offensive, but nowhere does it say what ME specifcally [i:0c42aa4a31] should[/i:0c42aa4a31] have done. It only states displeasure with what was done and points out that there were many other options available that would have given ME their desired result without perpetuating cliches. (What, btw, is the opposite of the old, the overdone, the cliche? The new, the undone, the [i:0c42aa4a31] creative[/i:0c42aa4a31]. Criticism, both social and artistic, actually helps foster creativity, not stifle it.)

So we have told no one what they [i:0c42aa4a31] should[/i:0c42aa4a31] do, and yet here you are telling us what we [i:0c42aa4a31] should[/i:0c42aa4a31] do. Your arrogance is astounding. And hypocritical.

[b:0c42aa4a31] "Imposing your point of view..."[/b:0c42aa4a31] You came here, remember? You want ME's creative freedom protected (so do I), but you want us to shut up? What is scaring you so much? What threat are we to you? There must be a threat, because you seem pretty desperate to shut us up. It can't be simply because you're annoyed, because you keep coming here. It must be something else. Something deeper. Something scarier.

[quote:0c42aa4a31][b:0c42aa4a31][i:0c42aa4a31]Quote:[/i:0c42aa4a31][/b:0c42aa4a31]

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I am not saying that you are not allowed to (or should not) express your opinion in public. But after a certain time and after a certain number of repeated defamatory arguments your publicly expressed opinions only serve to create differentiation and misgivings among others.

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[/quote:0c42aa4a31]

Oh, that's exactly what you're saying, own up to it. Am I to really believe that you would have been more receptive to our point of view 6 weeks ago, as opposed to now? Free speech has a shelf life? Who knew? BTW, this issue has "legs" because it's a real issue, not just some people upset about the fate of their favorite characters. The issue is not going to disappear. However, you'd probably lessen your chances of hearing about it if you'd stop coming 'round here.

As for defamatory arguments...once again, the FAQ is defamatory in no way. It treats everyone with respect.

[quote:0c42aa4a31][b:0c42aa4a31][i:0c42aa4a31]Quote:[/i:0c42aa4a31][/b:0c42aa4a31]

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The Tara/Willow relationship helped removing barriers between the lesbian minority and the majority. You should stop rebuilding these barriers.

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[/quote:0c42aa4a31]

We're not rebuilding any barriers. We're trying to point them out and tear them down, which is why we've expressed our displeasure with the offensive outcome of the Willow/Tara storyline. What you are essentially saying is, "You're lucky we've been tolerating you people at all. Shut up and make it easier on yourselves. It's so much easier to live my straight life in comfort and oblivion when I don't have to listen to you screaming about equal representation and rights." You're saying that the more we stand up for ourselves, the less you like us. That means that it is YOU who is erecting a barrier between us.

Shut up? No fucking way.

Amy

[BethanyB3]

They may not have killed Tara because she was gay, but they did [b:421a0626d8] intend[/b:421a0626d8] to kill her. This being known they then proceeded to build an intensely poignant & loving relationship between her & Willow.

They knew they were creating the first long term lesbian couple on TV. They knew the impact this couple was having on the viewers. They encouraged the viewers to cherish and feel safe with this situation.

They spoke of the importance of this relationship and their dedication to it and to the gay community. They then accepted all the accolades that were bestowed on them.

But, through it all they lied.

Joss was aware of the cliche.
The fact that Tara wasn't killed "for being gay" does not lessen the impact or the references that can be drawn from it.

Joss is an obviously intelligent man. This being said, I find it inconceivable that he could not:
1. See that by having Tara killed after a day/night of passion would perpetuate this abhorrent cliche.
2. That by doing so, the people he would most hurt were the ones to whom he had promised her safe keeping.

ME/Joss says they didn't intend to hurt the gay community. Yet if you know what you are planning to do & you know what that action will do & you procede to do so anyway doesn't that in itself show a level of intent. Perhaps an intent born out of reckless disregard, but still intent.
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[i:421a0626d8] "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and [b:421a0626d8] convenience[/b:421a0626d8], but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." Martin Luthor King Jr.[/i:421a0626d8]

[Kendahl897]

Reality Speaks,
You've come here and you've had your say, now run back over to the Bronze Beta..You have your opinon and we have ours..and it's obvious that they are never going to be the same..but this is the Willow and Tara board..we have every right to be upset..And don't tell me what I as a group should do or be thankful for..When I have the same rights as you, not special rights, but equal, then I'll listen to you preach.When 99% of the lesbian relationships on TV don't end in death or destruction, I'll listen. In the meantime, just take it somewhere else.........

[ari23]

RealitySpeaks,

I'm trying to stay away from a discussion about what political correctness means, because I think when using a term that can mean different things to different people (or at least carry vastly different connotations), a lot of confusion and misinterpretation tends to spring up.

I guess one thing I'm trying to do is figure out where exactly the disagreement lies. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so please let me know if I'm misinterpreting you. But it sounds as though one of the assumptions you're making is that one of the best ways for a group of people to be treated equally is to act as though they are being treated equally. I get this from the way you emphasize the need for common ground, and you seem to suggest that emphasizing difference is divisive.

This is one thing I don't agree with. What you see as "perpetuating a destructive culture of victimology", I see as pointing out that a culture of that kind exists. I don't think I'd put it in quite those terms, but I hope you see what I mean. I think that so long as inequality does exist, it should be pointed out. You might see this as counterproductive, since it focusses on the ways in which differences exist instead of trying to move forward. I would see it as raising awareness. I don't think a lot of people are aware of all the barriers in society. Equality and integration aren't things that happen overnight. For one, inequalities and differences are often institutionalized, and those institutions need to change. Also, it's hard to make up for a past history of inequality. There's a process involved. So I think people have to look at differences in order to eliminate them. I think it's something active.

The issue of gender has come up with me much more than the issue of sexuality, so I'm going to use that as an example. I find that a lot of people I know, particularly men, who believe that women are equals take it for granted that everyone believes that. This seems to lead them to think that women are being treated equally in all spheres, at least in North America. So they tend to get particularly annoyed when issues about the status of women get raised. Not because they're against women's equality, but for the exact opposite reason - that they take it for granted, because they don't experience a lot of the problems for themselves. I see a lot of similarity in the arguments you and they use.

This may or may not characterize you in the end, but you seem like a reasonable person who thinks that people should be treated equally regardless of their sexual orientation. But gays and lesbians aren't treated equally in today's society. The barriers you mention do exist, and I think they have to be pointed out before they can be torn down.

(Wow, this is probably the longest post I've written on this board yet. Hopefully it was worth it. I know my thoughts were a little scattered, but I think my general point comes through okay.)


-Ari

[BoredNow99]

Ah [b:1f82e21967] RealitySpeaks[/b:1f82e21967]. Back with another drive-by posting I see.

I would actually like to extend my thanks to you. Every time you pop by it makes me just that little bit more thankful for this amazing community.

And for the wonderful Kittens who never cease to amaze me with their intellect, insight and reasoned, clear thinking.

Once again, I sat and fumed while they defended us all. So a big thanks to them too.

Now for my contribution, such as it is.

[quote:1f82e21967][b:1f82e21967][i:1f82e21967]Quote:[/i:1f82e21967][/b:1f82e21967]

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I am not saying that you are not allowed to (or should not) express your opinion in public.

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[/quote:1f82e21967]

Why thank-you! It's kind of you to give us your blessing on that front. Y'know, I've been telling the other Kittens all along we should have been waiting for permission, but would they listen? Hell no. Pesky lesbians.

[quote:1f82e21967][b:1f82e21967][i:1f82e21967]Quote:[/i:1f82e21967][/b:1f82e21967]

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But after a certain time and after a certain number of repeated defamatory arguments your publicly expressed opinions only serve to create differentiation and misgivings among others.

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[/quote:1f82e21967]

Defamatory arguments? Really? I'm surprised you haven't given examples. No, wait, I'm not. Cos there aren't any. The FAQ is in no way defamatory.

[quote:1f82e21967][b:1f82e21967][i:1f82e21967]Quote:[/i:1f82e21967][/b:1f82e21967]

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The Tara/Willow relationship helped removing barriers between the lesbian minority and the majority. You should stop rebuilding these barriers

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[/quote:1f82e21967]

Seriously, that one just cracked me up. We try and point out that by destroying the only long-term lesbian relationship on network TV, Joss Whedon has succeeded in building the barriers right back up only to get told it's us doing the building?

Please. Like Amy said, the more we stand up for ourselves, the less you like us.

Quite frankly, I don't care. There are open-minded people out there who [b:1f82e21967] will[/b:1f82e21967] understand. Who [b:1f82e21967] want[/b:1f82e21967] to.

That's why I thank the Kitten we have the FAQ.

And can I just say - so tired of this.

[hilarita]

sigh.

alright, this is the thing i just dont get. how am i "imposing my viewpoint" on anyone? how am i going to force anyone to agree with me? most of what we say is just sitting here on this board. no one has to come here.

and even those of us who write letters and essays that are printed elsewhere on the web...how are we forcing you to read those articles?

i am not imposing a view, i am *stating* a view. the only reason we keep stating our views over and over again is because there are so many people who are clearly missing the point.

the fact that nearly all media portrayals of lesbians are so violently negative is a problem that needs addressing. and it needs to *keep* being addressed until it starts changing. what you seem to want is for us to shut up and ignore it, but this is not a reasonable expectation. because if we dont call attention to it, who is going to? you?

[Wiccagrrl313]

Willowlicious said:

[quote:45603555f3][b:45603555f3][i:45603555f3]Quote:[/i:45603555f3][/b:45603555f3]

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We're not rebuilding any barriers. We're trying to point them out and tear them down, which is why we've expressed our displeasure with the offensive outcome of the Willow/Tara storyline. What you are essentially saying is, "You're lucky we've been tolerating you people at all. Shut up and make it easier on yourselves. It's so much easier to live my straight life in comfort and oblivion when I don't have to listen to you screaming about equal representation and rights." You're saying that the more we stand up for ourselves, the less you like us. That means that it is YOU who is erecting a barrier between us.

Shut up? No fucking way.

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[/quote:45603555f3]

Amy, dear... I think I love you

[Repost Moderator]

[b:8eae0622e1] originally posted by Reality Speaks [/b:8eae0622e1]
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Just a final drive-by-posting since my time is out in several ways (my sick days are almost over and the money I got from the Republicans and from ME for posting this is running out):

[Kieli] There is only one side of political correctness (the side with the politically correct opinion) if that is what you refer to? And I am not on the other side meaning either if you mean that I am against lesbians in any way (sorry, I know it would be much easier for you if I where).
[Destroyer, ari23] Glad that someone is in fact able to formulate a reasonable opinion opposing mine which are not based on mindless Different opinion, I hate you !@$%. To some degree we are in agreement on the problem, but not on the solution, which you write is political correctness (though problematic as a term). Just like the concept of power, it is inherent in political correctness that it corrupts (to use a very bad Buffy metaphor; PC is like black magic it can be used for good but it will not possible stay that way). And do I mean that one of the best ways for a group of people to be treated equally is to act as though they are being treated equally? I do honestly not know, but it is not a bad interpretation which I will think about.
[BoardNew99] If you cannot find the defamatory arguments, here on the board or in the various news articles that some members of this board has written or that the board is indirectly responsible for, than you have a problem.
[Wiccagrrl313] No, what I am saying is that you should change methods and treat your opponents (in this case ME) fairly and with respect. I know it may be a new concept, but it generally works better.


In general, we may disagree about the end result of news articles constantly popping up about the clich and how bad ME has allegedly behaved (and I will not repeat the names that the people of ME has been called).

However, the result is your responsibility (direct or indirect). And it does not matter if you as a group cannot see that you are being divisive (and a bit unfair). If people outside your group begins to form that opinion as a result of what you are doing (which I am beginning to notice is the case) than you are building that wall anyway.

[xita]

Buffy fandom can think what it likes. It is a minority opinion that has to justify its continuing worship of a show and therefore must shut down contrary opinion. People get fed up with what we are saying, stop reading, that's my advice to you. And another advice, don't take a condescending morally superior attitude, it only makes you like what you are. I'll leave you to guess at that.

[Kendahl897]

Hey, y'now, what can I say? We just don't like to be lied to.. I didn't like it when I worked for Clinton and he lied. I felt betrayed and let down. I didn't like it when Enron lied to me about the value of my stock. Was just plain pissed there. And I didn't like it when Joss told me he wasn't sending Tara anywhere, then turned around and killed her off..If Joss could take the praise for 3 years, then I'm sure he's man enough to take the criticism..But it's nice that he has someone like you to watch out and protect and him from all of us disgruntled lesbians...

[xita]

RS, being disrespectful to kittens as a stranger in particular is not going to fly, arguing a point of view is one thing, deciding kittens have problems is another.

[RealitySpeaks]

[BoardNew99, Xita] Sorry. You are right, the problem part got out of line. Should not have wrote that.

[Willowlicious]

Once again, I will say that the FAQ is the ONLY official statement of the Kitten Board on the topic of Tara's death. It is respectful in all ways. There is nothing in the document that I wouldn't show to Marti Noxon's (or any other ME staffer's) mom. Of course, I don't know how their mothers would feel reading about all those lies they told, but as they would be judged by their own words and not my own, it is NOT my fault or concern. In other words, if ME is feeling defamed, it is due to their own actions and words, not ours.

BTW, [b:8f2ad85c98] RS[/b:8f2ad85c98], you've never responded to the point that if you believe that we are somehow responsible for the "defamatory" remarks allegedly made against ME elsewhere (even though our official statement is respectful), then ME must also be held responsible for perpetuating the idea that lesbian sex=death because of the W/T storyline (which David Fury already admitted played out as a cliche). We tried to set a good example, but are responsible for bad behavior. ME sets a bad example (which they have admitted to), and they are not responsible. Selective condemnation much?

Thanks for defending Mr. Whedon so honorably though. I'm sure he appreciates and loves you. Go ask Amber Benson what the prize for your loyalty will be.

Amy

[friskylez]

" If people outside your group begins to form that opinion as a result of what you are doing (which I am beginning to notice is the case) than you are building that wall anyway."

RS, The majority of people you are talking about already have their opinions, what the kittens say or write is not going to change that or we wouldnt have people like you coming to the board to tell us how wrong we are..See how that works

[Wiccagrrl313]

RealitySpeaks said:

[quote:82047a276d][b:82047a276d][i:82047a276d]Quote:[/i:82047a276d][/b:82047a276d]

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[Wiccagrrl313] No, what I am saying is that you should change methods and treat your opponents (in this case ME) fairly and with respect. I know it may be a new concept, but it generally works better.

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[/quote:82047a276d]

Oh, that's rich. Cause, ya know, you've been *so* respectful in your posts here to us. Thank you for setting such a great example and for showing us "crazy lesbians" the errors of our ways.

Oh, and FWIW, the quote you were responding to? It was Willowlicious'. I was just quoting her (and agreeing wholeheartedly)

[hilarita]

what defamatory articles are we talking about here? because i havent seen any. saying that they lied, or saying that we believe they behaved recklessly, is not the same as being offensive. ive written a couple articles and i have been painfully polite toward ME and joss. but they did lie. and i do think they behaved recklessly.

if nobody here spoke up about this, you and hundreds of other people would never have heard of the lesbian cliche. this is just a fact. education is a noble goal, yes? maybe somewhere out there, some producer is suddenly realizing that there are a lot of people out there who want a healthy gay relationship. i dont see how these are bad things.

what i get from your statements is something like, "most straight people dont think this is a big deal, and if you want to be thought of as equal than you lesbians shouldnt think this is a big deal either." this makes no sense to me. obviously our concerns, whether we are lesbians or not, are not the same as yours. the problems with different groups of people is not that there *are* differences, it is whether or not the groups *accept* these differences. and ignoring the differences is not the same thing. no one here is interested in cultural assimilation.

another fact is that we, as a board, are just a bunch of individuals. we have a lot of differing opinions amidst ourselves. saying that we, collectively, are doing anything is largely not true. the faq is a board-wide supported thing. everything else is just individuals stating opinions. no one is responsible for my opinions, anymore than i am responsible for yours. if there are people out there saying something or other, its not the problem of this board.

you cant tell people whether or not to be upset about something, it just doesnt work.

[tommo]

[quote:e884ab35a8][b:e884ab35a8][i:e884ab35a8]Quote:[/i:e884ab35a8][/b:e884ab35a8]

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[b:e884ab35a8] This group should stop perpetuating a destructive culture of victimology and stop trying to harness political correctness as a tool for imposing your subjective viewpoint/feelings on the death of Tara and evilness of ME to other people.[/b:e884ab35a8]

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[/quote:e884ab35a8]

Hmm. Yes. I keep feeling the need to come back to this little paragraph. I'm sorry. But it's the whole thing about perpetuating that culture of victimology.

Please. If I wasn't a victim then I would be allowed to maintain control of certain things in my life; you know, the little things that you take for granted. Love. Marriage. Being able to be with your partner. Those kinds of things that you're allowed to do and I'm not. And why? Oh wait...that's right, it's because I'm a lesbian.

Victim. Don't make me weep. You don't even know what it's like to be a victim. You have no idea of what it's like to be a lesbian and I'm not even sure you know what it's like to be a human being, judging from your insanely hurtful posts to my fellow kittens.

You know why people come here? Because they don't get picked on and harangued and belittled for believing that somewhere, there should be happiness and safety and celebration of our sexuality. That's why people visit the kitten board.

Tell me, why do you come here? Why do you bother, if all you're going to do is to defend ME and their decision to kill the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. The one thing that reflected my feelings, my experience, my knowledge of the world. Why do you come here? What's your reasoning?

Oh wait...on the other hand...don't bother telling me. I don't care. I just don't care.

Ranty as this is, I'm giving up.

[Junior3]

Hi there,
can I say this is a very interesting discussion?

I believe that PC is not only useful,but necessary in many cases.It can teach people to think before saying or doing things that could hurt others and even if that's imposed, it's still good.We really don't need to hurt each other for no reason but ignorance.such a simple concept,but so hard to get for so many people...

J.R.

PS:even if I don't agree with some of the things RS is posting I don't think he's been rude enough to say he's(or she's?)not a"human being".
You should see the words that sportsfans use on their boards when they don't agree on something like a possible trade or a player's value.

[Kieli]

[b:d5af031817] RS:[/b:d5af031817] Gotta love those circular arguments. You know, the ones where you never really answer the question? I find it HIGHLY amusing that you think Destroyer's arguments were the only ones that were well thought out since that one is where they were agreeing with you! Pitiful. You dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you and actually gives you something to think about but acknowledge someone who agrees with you to some extent. I don't think you're playing Devil's Advocate here. Like I've told you before, you've clearly chosen a side. I don't hate you because I don't know you from Adam and frankly don't care to. But your arguments are STILL spurious at best and you have YET to give any real proof or support for your claims that we are "Wrong! Wrong! All wrong!" I'm still waiting for you to give me a reason to take you seriously.

T.

[relativegirl]

[quote:ea31224a39][b:ea31224a39][i:ea31224a39]Quote:[/i:ea31224a39][/b:ea31224a39]

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even if I don't agree with some of the things RS is posting I don't think he's been rude enough to say he's(or she's?)not a"human being"

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[/quote:ea31224a39]
Well [b:ea31224a39] junior[/b:ea31224a39], there's a lot of history here you haven't witnessed. RS is hardly the first troll to come into our home uninvited and pontificate about what we "should" be doing, or telling us what we are saying is wrong, denying that we have a right to say it and generally asserting that if the damn lesbians are unhappy than it's their own damn fault. He or she is just one in a long tedious line and after RS fades away there will be another and another and another.

And you know what? Sometimes, after awhile some of us start taking this personally. Because what's merely the "issue of the day" for some of our drive-by trolls is a whole lot more than just an "issue" for me.

Being gay isn't just an "issue" for me; it's an indivisible part of who I am. The representations of lesbians in the media isn't just an "issue of political correctness" for me because I never know how many people I deal with in my life who have been affected by those negative images -- people who will have to decide whether I can get insurance coverage for my partner, or whether I can adopt a child or whether a new law should be passed allowing me to marry my partner or whether they want to continue employing me if they find out I'm not straight like them.

This is more than just an intellectual discourse and it's more than just a heated debate about who our team picked up off the waiver wire. It's real life and real people who often have to put up with more than their fair share of real life crap. And if one of our kittens wants to question whether a troll is even a human being, well I'm going to take that kitten's side every time and tell the troll to just back off. She was here long before RS, she's a part of this community and she's entitled to say whatever the hell she wants in this place until one of the moderators decides to say otherwise.

[tommo]

I've been here since the beginning. Since the beginning of this board, when people were trolling saying that Tara was too fat, too ugly, too shy, too everything for [b:6da7559951] their[/b:6da7559951] tastes.

I'm afraid this is just one troll too many for me. So here's where I'm drawing the line. I'm not going to argue, not going to cry. I'm just going. Okay? You can take that any way you damn well like it.

[ari23]

[quote:405ab69bb7][b:405ab69bb7][i:405ab69bb7]Quote:[/i:405ab69bb7][/b:405ab69bb7]

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[Destroyer, ari23] Glad that someone is in fact able to formulate a reasonable opinion opposing mine which are not based on mindless Different opinion, I hate you !@$%. To some degree we are in agreement on the problem, but not on the solution, which you write is political correctness (though problematic as a term). Just like the concept of power, it is inherent in political correctness that it corrupts (to use a very bad Buffy metaphor; PC is like black magic it can be used for good but it will not possible stay that way). And do I mean that one of the best ways for a group of people to be treated equally is to act as though they are being treated equally? I do honestly not know, but it is not a bad interpretation which I will think about.

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[/quote:405ab69bb7]
Last round, maybe? Look - I don't think political correctness is the answer. At least not political correctness the way you seem to conceive of it. So I also want to stop talking about it since it's not all that relevant to my opinions. I think I said in an earlier post that I am a firm believer in freedom of expression and creative freedom, and political correctness (for you) seems to be the antithesis of this.

So here's what I think, and I'm only planning on speaking for myself, since I haven't been on this board long enough to know how many people share my opinions. First, since I might not have emphasized this enough, ME and all other writers should have creative freedom, and not be muzzled by standards of political correctness. But! If they use that creative freedom to do something that hurts us, they need to know about it. They need to know exactly how and why they did something hurtful. What makes me angry is that they don't seem to care, now that they do know. And keep in mind that what I think about what they should have done does not mean that they should have been forced to do anything. Writers should be free to write their stories as they see fit. But socially responsible writers should pay attention to the impact their stories are going to have. Gene Roddenberry is an (often cited) example of such a writer. I don't know what his creative vision told him about Uhura's story arcs. But if his creative vision involved her being hung from a tree by a lynch mob, he sure didn't act on it. As far as I know, he was his own censor, and he told some great stories.

It's a simple argument, I guess. A socially responsible writer is one who is careful about the social impact of his or her stories. If ME is not interested in being a group of socially responsible writers, then I can't really say anything more. They're starting out with different premises, so any argument I make won't lead them to my conclusion. But if they are interested in the social impact of their stories, then I think they should admit that they did something wrong, in giving the people out there who believe that people [i:405ab69bb7] should[/i:405ab69bb7] be punished for homosexuality, something to cheer about. Clear enough?


-Ari

[Arafel the Witch]

The thing I really resent about PC is that for a lot of us, it started out as a bit of a joke in college about 13-14 years ago. I've always been on the left side of the spectrum, and don't understand how someone can vote Republican. Actually, I have a good friend who's a Republican, but he hates the religious right as much as I do, maybe more for taking over his party. We argue about the best way to achieve social justice. He feels it's by making people financially comfortable, whereas I feel that ultimately, the social issues are too important and need to be dealt with first, by law if necessary. But I digress. I was talking about PC. As I experienced it, the term evolved as a way for leftists to kid each other when we weren't quite living up to our rhetoric. For instance, if you threw the beer bottle into the trash instead of the recycle bin, you'd say, "Not PC!" And of course now the term has been hijacked by right-wingers to bash any liberal excess and some humorless left-wingers who don't deal with dissent very well.

RS, using this term to butress your argument does not bode well for you. And ultimately, why do you care? Really, seriously, why? The kittens are dealing with feelings, OK? Not logic, but emotions and how they hit one. And emotions are truly one of the few things one can call one's own. I don't agree with everything about the FAQ; I don't for instance, agree that killing Tara off after a passion bought into the cliche necessarily, because to me Tara and Willow had a very passionate relationship and that seemed to go with the territory, and Joss has done something similar before, in S2, with Buffy and Angel, and S4 he had Buffy get tremendously hurt by Parker after a night of passionate sex.

HOWEVER, I feel Joss blew it. I cried when Tara was killed. It was senseless and stupid. And he lied for years about it. If he had the courage that so many people like you think he does, he would have abandoned the original storyline of having Tara killed and Willow go dark, not because of "PC pressure" from the "lesbians who are dividing everybody", but because his creation of the W/T relationship should have surprised him in its intensity and made him realize there were more interesting possibilities than what he conceived. Writers are often surprised at the direction their characters go in, and I've talked with many writers, some quite respected, who say in effect "I never saw the characters going this way, but that's where they wanted and needed to go". Joss let his ego get in the way of the story.

Frankly, if he wanted Willow to go dark, there were other ways to do it. But the whole drug addiction analogy showed me that the creative well seemed to have gone dry this year.

For you to come here and tell us to get over it, that our feelings about what Joss did are irrelavant, boggles the mind. This is a W/T board OK? It's for fans of W/T. Since you obviously don't seem to fit that profile, I'd suggest you find a community that speaks to your beliefs about Buffy. I mean, if we are truly the PC minority gone amuck that you seem to believe, our statements and arguments aren't going to have any effect, are they? Or are you worried that perhaps we aren't a PC minority? In either event, I completely fail to understand why our beliefs seem to inspire so many strong feelings in you? Perhaps you are S. DeKnight in disguise huh?