Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[urnofosiris]

DaLilBit, I am glad to see you solved your posting problem , and I am late because I had troubles solving my computer problems , so this will be a lot of quoting.

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4.BtVS has a rather dynamic storyline. Characters are added and deleted as needed. Alot of people said that Anya should have died instead of Tara. I disagree with that. Anya has played an extremely active role in the Scooby Gang and stayed with the SG even after her breakup with Xander. Tara stayed away from the gang and Willow after Tabula Rasa and if she and Willow had never made up I have reason to believe that she would have continued to stay away. Maybe coming around to act as Dawn's babysitter/mother figure now and then.

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Actually Anya did go poof for a little while after being dumped and she turned back into a vengeance demon because of it, eventhough she did not do it in the end, she did come back and went around the scoobies trying to make them wish against Xander. Tara did not turn into a demon after she got hurt. Also I think the reason Tara disappeared for a few eps this season and last season (without any word whatsoever back then) might have to do with the fact that Amber Benson was not a regular, and before anyone says she did not want to be, she still could have been written into those eps, Amber Benson did not have any other projects going at the time. In any case this is not really a point for argument for me, I did not want Anya to die either. I did not want anyone to die, we've been there, done that last season and frankly death and pain has never been a reason for me to watch this show, no matter what Joss Whedon may think.



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5.People lie. I knew Steve DeKnight was lying when he said Tara wasn't going to die. Once I heard that Willow was going evil I knew it would be because Tara died.

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Well I did not know, because I was foolish enough to trust them, that made the hurt only worse, but I am cured of that forever. As it is people lie does not justify anything for me. I despise it. Not every little lie that gets told, but big whopping lies that will hurt people, I cannot accept that.

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7.Willow and Tara truly had a beautiful relationship. It made me feel good about TV and the world in general. Why concentrate on the negatives? Look at the big picture for a sec. Buffy left an unhealthy relationship and never looked back. Xander finally had to be the grown up and act like a real man. For the first time Willow had to deal with loss in a natural way. And somewhere in LA...a black guy and a white girl are in a positive relationship. ME's report card: B-

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[/quote:659d8988fb]

We have looked at the big picture (point 11 of this FAQ), for more than a sec, please do try and do the same for us, and I mean the big picture of the lesbian cliche itself. It is there and it really cannot be denied.
The fact that Gunn is a positive example does not excuse giving into another cliche, and when you look at it critically, Gunn is the [b:659d8988fb] only[/b:659d8988fb] black man who did not get killed or who was not an evil vampire. The statistics are off in Buffyverse when it comes to the races as well, but before anyone jumps on it, I don't think ME is racist, no more than I think they are homophobes. However that does not makes any of this ok, equal representation should not be something we should have to pat anyone on the back for, it should be a given, but such is not the world unfortunately.



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Actually...most of the shows I watch are about dysfunctional ppl. He he. I never watched TV just to see portrayals of straight relationships.

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But you don't live in a society where you get discriminated for being straight and having straight relationships. For people who do get discriminated for who they love and who face prejudice every day, the way the media portrays you can do wonders or do great harm. When in life you face that harm, it is not surprising to hope for, ask for, and watch when you see something positive about yourself. For the first time in case of Willow and Tara. And now that is gone as well. As always.

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There are plenty of other more damaging cliches and stereotypes. My pet peeve is black ppl being portrayed as damned fools

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I think you are underestimating [b:659d8988fb] how[/b:659d8988fb] damaging the gay cliche really is. There [b:659d8988fb] are[/b:659d8988fb] positive portayals of black characters and [b:659d8988fb] relationships[/b:659d8988fb], unlike the gay variety, which does not mean the score has evened out for black people. I have mentioned this before, imagine if Gene Roddenberry had decided to demote Uhura and only let her come on the bridge to clean the captains chair and serve him tea, would you have blamed anyone to rebel against that? Why is it that the GLBT community has to sit here and take everything, time after time.

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I'm a fan of action. I'm writing a Buffy/Angel/Charmed-esqe movie(he he!!)and most of the characters are black and native american. I say don't just write long FAQ's about what you are feeling...take some action!!

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Well people are taking action, writing this cliche is part of that, you do have to explain your argument if you want anything to change, just standing up and demanding won't help, people will just say we don't have anything to complain about, but heh, they do that anyway.

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Surely there are more pressing issues for lesbians to attend to. Like getting same-sex unions legalized. I'm for it!!

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And are you doing anything about it? Seriously? It is not up to you to say what people's priorities should be, it never is, not even if you are standing in the same shoes.

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*sigh*...I've never met such a hardcore bunch of fanz.

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Aside from caring deeply about GLBT issues we are also die hard WT fans, that is the purpose of this board. It is not a secret, and you cannot change it to fit yourself, no more than we can or are interested in changing the focus of other boards. We seek the place that fits our interests best. It sounds like you are judging us btw, many people would roll their eyes at you for being a BtVS fan.


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actually...there is only one page of topics...I see that ppl stay in certain threads...

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I think this shows that you really should take the time to look around a bit first, I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, I just mean that, it would make joining in discussions easier for you and us.
There are many topics about Willow, Tara, Amber, Aly, Willow/Tara. We play no favourites when it comes to them, just take time to look around and if there is a thread in the archives which you would like to respond to you can email us or post in the ask any questions thread, and we can move it.

Bottom line I think GLBT people know their own issues, problems and what they need best, better than Joss Whedon for sure, and as with any group of people, there will be disagreement between indivual members of that group, but [b:659d8988fb] this[/b:659d8988fb] group will not just be quiet and move on because someone else thinks they should be or that there are other things we should be concerned about more. We do what *we* [b:659d8988fb] need[/b:659d8988fb] to do.

[Arafel the Witch]

I see no reason to add to the already excellent responses by DrG, kat and hilarita. But I do feel compelled to respond to one small point:

<Xander finally had to be the grown up and act like a real man.>

PUHLEAZE!!!! Xander hasn't acted like a grown-up, or "real man" in the entire history of the show. And in S6 he acted like a complete coward and left his bride at the altar because the future was uncertain, but then he still wanted to date her. And he acted all outraged when she slept with Spike. HELLO!!!!? Getting married means the future is always uncertain, but hopeful. And saying he still wanted to date her was the epitomy of teenage boyhood. If any Scooby should have died last year, and I don't know one should have, it should have been Xander.

[Kieli]

[edited because I was asked to and I've decided that it just isn't worth it to give these people more fuel for their twisted fires.]

[Zahir al Daoud]

DaLilBit,

Look around you at the media today. Where are the lesbians who don't fit the Dead/Evil/Alone cliche? Where is the idea that lesbians can be happy and good rendered in our mainstream culture? Answer--nowhere, now. The image did exist, it lived and visited millions of homes regularly, and by existing fostered something precious--Hope. Hope for a time when gay-bashing is something rare, when saying some one is gay is no longer grounds for slander, when prominent prominent political figures would never dream of openly spouting bigotry against gays and lesbians.

Then, the image of that hope was utterly destroyed by people who publicly said they would never do that.

Okay, that isn't and shouldn't be against the law. But the people who did it deserve to be called to the carpet for a cruel and (in a nation where gay teens face vicious prejudice, for example) irresponsible act.

Don't expect the ones hurting from this betrayal to be "nice" about it. Frankly, you don't have the right as long as they don't engage is violence or actual harassment. I don't know of anyone here who's done either.

You yourself don't seem like a bad person. Very understandably, you want to focus on the (very real) quality that Joss Whedon & company have done. You probably don't want to be distracted from any future joy he may well bring you. I for one don't blame you. But please try and understand that Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy did do something else--something hurtful and wrong. By all means, give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they didn't mean it that way. For the record, I agree. This was a case of blindness and arrogance, IMO, not deliberate pushing of loathsome ideas. You want to call that a mitigating factor? Okay. I can see that. Do you want to watch the next season of [i:2e8b53e916]Buffy[/i:2e8b53e916] and [i:2e8b53e916]Angel[/i:2e8b53e916] and [i:2e8b53e916]Firefly[/i:2e8b53e916]? No one is even trying to stop you.

But we are giving feedback. If Joss Whedon is half the man we all thought he was, he'll eventually listen. And learn. That's not a bad thing.

[Lisa of Nine]

Zahir,

You said, "If Joss Whedon is half the man we all thought he was, he'll eventually listen. And learn. That's not a bad thing."

Joss Whedon IS half the man I thought he was. That's why I don't think he'll listen, and why I don't think he will learn.

My hope is that by speaking out, consistently, and by not going away and shutting up, we can he heard by others, others who are willing to listen and learn. I don't think we will change M.E. They are all priests and priestesses in the church of Joss. To admit they screwed up is to abandon their religion. People have been clinging to bad ideas in the name of religion for centuries. What they don't realize is that if cling to the bad ideas, they dilute the good ones.

The Bible calls for disobedient children to be stoned to death. Christians of good conscience decided that they would not follow that. Prior to the civil war, slave holders twisted passages of the Bible to support slavery. Again, people of good conscience decided slavery was wrong, no matter how immorally some passages of the Bible might be interpreted.

I don't think we can ever 'make' Whedon admit or even SEE that what he did was not right. What I hope we can accomplish is to get just one producer or writer to say, "You know what? They have a point. Having all gay relationships end tragically does send a negative and destructive message. I can do better, not because I fear the 'angry lesbians,' but because it is the right thing to do."

That is my hope for the future. Amber Benson seems to genuinely understand the pain this has caused. She is making films. I hope she, and other young filmmakers, have a new awareness and will not make the same careless, ignorant, arrogant, and hurtful mistakes.

Lisa

*** edited to remove an analogy that may have sounded "brutal." I don't want MY words used against the kittens.

[justastraightdog]

I have a question about the "responsibility" issue.

We all remember SR (I wish I wouldn't). Does anyone remember Nicolas Roeg's brilliant movie "Don't look know"? The famous love scene with Julie Christie and Donald Sutherland ([i:4aebb4ce16] "quite possibly THE steamiest love scene ever put into an R-rated film"[/i:4aebb4ce16] to quote a user comment from the IMDb - and it caused long living rumours that it wasn't faked). It's told in flashbacks while the couple dresses up and gets ready to go out. Now - replace Julie and Donald by Amber and Aly and let it end with Tara in front of the window, you got the idea.

Now my question: I know how German tv works - I don't know any details about US tv. Could a scene like that been aired on UPN at 8pm? Why? Why not? Who is responsible for this decision? Any laws? Institutions?

[Vampric Yoda]

Hello. I'm not saying anything defending Joss or ME or anything like that. But someone asked to name other Lesbian couples that are not in the Clique. ((Sorry that I can't spell)) Sailors Neptune and Uranus on Sailor Moon are always shown as postive. . .For the record I've never wathed the american translations so I don't know for sure if they kept it in tact for American Viewers but I figured you may be interested in knowing. All though one decent couple doesn't tip the scale or anything like that, I figured I tell you anyway.

[Elianna]

[b:c2f62d1716] Vampric Yoda[/b:c2f62d1716]: Thank you for the information. I believe that many of us already knew about that, as it was discussed here Subtext Thread.

Also, for your information (and it says in the thread, but you'll have to dig through it) the relationship was NOT kept intact for American viewers. Kinda sucks, huh?

-Elianna

[superherofan]

Vampiric Yoda,

In North America, the lesbian couple in "Sailor Moon" was edited/dubbed so that they were cousins.

Canadian article

An example rant page about the de-gaying of anime

[Pipsqueak]

Okay, this sentence in the Canadian article made me laugh out loud:

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Saturn does not grow up to become a lesbian, although she once tries to annihilate the universe.

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And here I thought only lesbians could do that.

[Elianna]

[b:0332f86486] superherofan[/b:0332f86486], thank you very much for linking to those articles, I thought that they were a very interesting view of Northern American "morality". Especially the second one, where it mentions that incestual and bestial relationships were shown unedited, but the lesbian ones were wiped out. Very interesting.

-Elianna

[Ben Varkentine]

"Saturn does not grow up to become a lesbian, although she once tries to annihilate the universe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And here I thought only lesbians could do that."

Yes, but you have to kill their lover to get them to that state. It's the only possible way to achieve that end result. No, really. There just isn't any other plot line that could lead there.

[kyraroc]

I always find it astounding how much even just the *idea* of gayness is censored out of things - remember all those show summaries and reviews that called Tara Willow's "friend"?

It happens all over the place - homosexual behavior in animals is routinely censored out of zoological scientific studies, often by altering it to make it look like something different . . . e.g., "they then exchanged in a food exchange ritual" or "one male proceeded to establish dominance ove the other". This is so pervasive that I've heard many people repeat that myth that there *is* no homosexual behavior in the animal world, and that therefore it's unique to humans and unnatural blah blah blah (as if, somehow, humans aren't animals.) One animal behaviorist was so grimly amused by the way her colleagues constantly referred to sex among female lions as "a greeting" that she began referring to lesbian sex in general as "the big hello".

--- KR

[Ben Varkentine]

"One animal behaviorist was so grimly amused by the way her colleagues constantly referred to sex among female lions as "a greeting" that she began referring to lesbian sex in general as "the big hello"."

That makes lesbians sound so friendly...

[emma peel]

But Ben, you already knew that lesbians were very friendly, at least the ones on this board!!!
Janice

[Pipsqueak]

HELLO!

(sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Dumbsaint]

The Big Hello. lmao

Good lord is that ever great. Hmmm. I wonder if that's taken yet as a screename on AOL. Hee.

I think it'd make a nice companion to my "Hello Gay Now" and "Hello Evil Now" screenames.

[Ben Varkentine]

Certainly provides for a whole new reading of a certain Lionel Richie song...

[Vampric Yoda]

Well. . your welcome and I'm sorry that it didn't work out here. Gotta edit everything. . .one thing I find funny about everything being edited is the way most people see Homosexual relations. . .It seems to me most people that want it out of T.V. see it as Pornographic. . .because more often then not when you get Porn E-mails and what not it says "Lesbian" such and such but of coruse when it comes to Hedero ((Damn Spelling)) they can do anything they want so long as they don't actully show the Parts of the guy or girl. Anyway that's why I think things get edited and there's nobody bold enough to take a stand and show anyone ((As far as T.V. shows go I mean)) except Cable T.V that you have to pay more for. . many people only get the regualr channels. . .and I'm rambling. . . anyway you get the gist of what I'm saying

[DaLilBit]

haven't had time to come back as read your responses to my response to the cliche. I didn't really understand what you were talking about when you said magic was a metaphor for W/T sex until I decided to use one of my fav quotes as a board sig. "I think about two women doing a spell...and then I do a spell by myself.". That and the floaty scene that was full of innuendo are the only examples of the whole metaphor thing I could think of. Later from the less cool homersexual* universe...


*Its a joke from the Simpsons. Someone got really made when I called them a Homersexual the other day...

[tommo]

The metaphor of magick as sex, or sexual attraction was used from the very first moment Willow and Tara met. If you like, imagine that every time they did magick together, they were doing what dating couples do. So a small spell would be like kissing, a more intense spell might be touching, and then finally we got to the spell in [b:122c164358] Who Are You[/b:122c164358], which was perhaps the most explicit love scene we were allowed to see at that time between two women on the WB.

If you begin to apply that metaphor to Willow and Tara; you'll notice that they talk about magick differently. To the point when you get an interchange like this:

WILLOW
(awkward)
I hope you don't think I just come over for the spells and
everything. I mean, I really like just talking and hanging out with you and stuff.

TARA
I know that.
(then/smiling)
But you want to do a spell.

WILLOW
(sheepishly)
Yeah. But only because it's really important. There's this -

TARA
(gently interrupting)
You don't have to explain. I don't mind. Really.
(shyly)
I've been thinking about that last spell we did all day.

Now, exchange the word "spell" for "sex" or "having sex", and you'll soon see where the metaphor fits in. Simple really.

I know I'm probably not explaining this really well, but this is the progression [b:122c164358] I[/b:122c164358] saw. And this is just [b:122c164358] one[/b:122c164358] example. There are more.

[oneyedchicklet]

No Ruth, I think you explained it perfectly. Even in the later episodes after The Body and the kiss scene, switch the words "spell" or "magicks" and it still fits the "sex" referrence.

Love to all,
Barb

[kbk3022]

Okay, I know that this doesn't have to do with what y'all are talking about right now but...I just wanted to thank the authors of the FAQ. I think that y'all did a wonderful job of creating the piece and explaining how lesbians get treated in the movies and on television. I had already known about the homosexual cliche, because I saw The Celluloid Closet a couple of years ago, that film was pretty shocking to me at the time. Anyway, Thank you to [b:c8a3d2cc04] Willowlicious[/b:c8a3d2cc04] and [b:c8a3d2cc04] Kyraroc[/b:c8a3d2cc04] and all the other kittens who helped bring it together. I was lurking around at the time this was made, and I know what high emotions were around and I have to say this FAQ is calm and collected in it's writing. It's great, and I think y'all should be proud by how many people you've educated with it so far.

Kasey

[circular reference]

[b:60d58fdec6] Ben Varkentine[/b:60d58fdec6] writes:
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That makes lesbians sound so friendly...

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[/quote:60d58fdec6]
Aren't we, though? *giggle*



[b:60d58fdec6] Pipsqueak[/b:60d58fdec6] writes:
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HELLO

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[/quote:60d58fdec6]
Isn't that a big YELLOW hello? Does this have a different meaning? *grin* Ben... Ben! What is the meaning of a big YELLOW hello?? (hee hee...)

(it may be my lack of sleep, really...)

[stillflygrlop]

Just curious, but doesn't the lesbian couple in Being John Malkovich turn out sorta happy? (besides their daughter being "puppeted" by the looney puppeteer--hey, it isn't the women this time!)

[Hyo Shin]

Another 'Possession' article

www.planetout.com/pno/new...sernum=397

[Chewster]

I would just like to say thankyou and congratulations to the Kittens who put the FAQ together. As a lurker I watched its development when we were at our worst as a community and it was a beacon of well-reasoned, carefully thought out and very pertinent logic in the midst of the anger that we were all feeling. It was something to cling to in that it was there to educate others as it had educated me. I must admit that I was never aware of the "cliche" as such prior to this. Yes I knew that the lesbians in the media, like the gay men, often suffered at the hands of writers and that was something that angered me quite frequently, just as the mistreatment of any group does. In todays culture, as others have said, many groups are - rightly - protected from such abuse. Sometimes that protection is not a "you shall not write that" as much as another - more positive - representation in another show or film etc and to some extent I agree that is the way to go but that is a long way off from being a viable reality. When reality is reflected across the media then stories such as this might be a little more acceptable (in the abstract sense only - I would never want to accept what they did to W/T in S6 story wise... but without the damage it did in the wider sense it would have been a little less painful.) Stories should be told and yes some of those will be unfair to one group or another in that particular instance (which is going to happen to some group or another in dramatic storytelling) but they are not enforcing a sterotypical cliche unless that is the way that the majority is shown - as it is sadly happening to lesbians in the media. A writer cannot act in isolation from the world as it really is - even in a fantasy show (perhaps especially in such a show.) The writer should not represent a group in a negative way just because everyone else does so - infact I would have thought that the job of a writer would be to break through that. To be original. I have no problem with an evil black/white/asian/ gay/lesbian/bi/straight/ member of any other group of your choice in any media just so long as that is the exception and not rule. In the real world how many people suffer a violent death like that? How many people are evil?

A tiny proportion.

Tiny.

So that should be balanced in the media - yes even in drama where there is a need for bad things to happen. Tough to do I know as no one show can write its stories based on that of others. There will never be a "well Law and Order had a evil lesbian last season so we can't have it this year" decision - but this is where shows have a responsibility to reflect the audience to some extent. Even where there is a new evil required every week. The fact that Gunn is the really the single positive black character on Buffy/Angel is a travesty according to the population demographics. And what there are no Hispanic characters in South California? And then we come to the gays & lesbians... well that has all been explained alot better in the posts above. The media as a whole has a duty to reflect the world or at least not to distort it beyond measure. The excuse that any one show/film/book etc has to act alone for "their story" is no excuse at all. Just because one does it all of them should? No that is not acceptable at all to me.

Sadly (given what happened) Willow and Tara [b:22cad4c4f2]were,[/b:22cad4c4f2] for a long time, the positive counterbalance to the (ultimately) negative presentations of lesbians in mainstream media and this made their fate all the more terrible in my humble opinion. There was an opportunity there for them (ME) to make the difference and end this well. That is not to say that they (WT) have not made a difference to people, just that they have been taken the way of nearly every other pair of female lovers when they could have been the start of a reflection of the real world. That, as this thread so accurately protrays, is the cliche. What good they were doing was thrown away for a three episode arc. Not that it would have made it better if they had dragged DMW out for a whole season either. Once more though, the "payoff" for the show was just another insult compared to the price that was paid.

And I would like to thank the writers and the kittens who contributed to this thread for making me aware of the wider implications of this action. Tara's death was horrible - a terrible waste in story terms and a betrayal in how it was handled. But it has much wider implications than that and I am pleased that I have been made so very aware of it.

If I have misworded anything in this post I apologise now... that is a question of misphrasing rather than any intent. Never doubt that what I intend is complete and wholehearted support of this effort and all involved in it.

[Bex1983]

Ggrrrr...!!!

Ok people, why so bothered about this??!? When does Buffy's other half not have something wrong with them??

Joss Whedon et al have a tendancy to, just as everyting's hunky-dorey, ruin the lives of the characters they've created. So why, just because it's a lesbian relationship, should they change that for W & T??

I don't see the problem. I've gained so much support through watching their relationship develop but it's just a story. Me & my girlfriend even call eachother Tillow & Wara!! It's sad, but they do it to all the characters!!! They killed Ms. Calendar just as Giles was becoming happy... Angel became a vamp just as he & buffy started getting somewhere...

I think that we should be grateful for the relationship & that it happened in the first place & NOT complaining about what's happened to it!

[xita]

I really think the FAQ explains why we are angry. If you've read it can you tell me which part of it is not communicating why we feel the way we do? Do you have a specific issue with any part of it?

[Sheridan]

[quote:5e868f8a59][b:5e868f8a59][i:5e868f8a59]Quote:[/i:5e868f8a59][/b:5e868f8a59]

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Ok people, why so bothered about this??!? When does Buffy's other half not have something wrong with them??

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[/quote:5e868f8a59]

In addition to the cliche:

[b:5e868f8a59] The Lies before they killed Tara off.

The apalling way the death was handled on the show

The insensitivity and callousness of ME after the death

Oh and the latest addition, that "$%&^@ UPN promo.[/b:5e868f8a59]