Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[Unregistered(d)]

First off congrats to all.
Second may i suggest that this new finished version be put into a whole new thread, so that it can be seen fresh by visitors. Perhaps giving it an easier web-address.
Minor points though, great job. Hopefully it will make it easier for folks to understand.
May I suggest someone cut and pastes a copy at the bronze, send to Herc, maybe even a mag like SFX.

[kyraroc]

Thanks, all! And especially thanks to everyone who contributed, everyone who helped out, and everyone who continues to do so (quite a lot of people, at this point. )

In terms of getting the word out on this - would anyone be willing to post this somewhere in a FAQ form more like the kitten FAQ - that is to say, a list of questions you can click on which will take you to the appropriate text?

Would anyone be interested in posting this or a link to this at the Bronze Beta, or the BC&S, or the Main Kitten Board or on other appropriate boards where it hasn't already been posted yet? (with appropriate spoiler warnings, of course.)

Is anyone planning on getting this to the Succubus Club in time for the David Fury interview? Any ideas on the best way to do that (should it be sent with along with questions for David Fury as well, for example?)

Again, thanks!

--- KR

[xita]

I am willing to host it, make it HTML like.. Eventually we can also host it somewhere else, for a project (cough), but for now I am totally willing to put it up!

[WebWarlock]

As soon as the Other Side's host comes back online I'll put it up there as well.

Warlock

[FuBard]

Would the next moderator to pass through please delete my previous post about putting the FAQ up at another site? Some at the other board mentioned have requested that I do it to prevent knowledge of the afforementioned board from being dessiminated and the board being compromised.

Thanx,

FuBard

[BytrSuite]

Y'know, FuBard, if you were registered you could delete that information yourself. Just a thought.

[helpful information perha]

this is very very well done

May I suggest it be faxed to FOX, UPN and all the stations airing buffy with notation that it is endorsed by this boards 1000+ registered memebers

I'd also suggest it be faxed to the advertisers for the show

the magizines and papers listed on the other side of the board

and especially to the fellow in boston who wrote the boston newspaper "friday rant" - I think he would appreciate it !

[stephenboothuk]

Just wanted to say a really big thank you for this. It expresses the anger and frustration I've been feeling for weeks about the threat and eventual delivery of Tara's murder far better than I ever could and with far fewer profanities.

Tara is one of the few characters on TV with whom I feel any connection at all (the other being Dr Greene on ER, at least he left with some dignity I suppose). Her murder hit me like the death of a close family member, more perhaps. I want to scream and rage against the dying of our light.

Add in the admission that, unlike the recurring characters who have died/been killed, Amber did not ask to leave. Just makes the horror all the worse.

Stephen
(Shy, Bi and with a tendancy to Stutter when nervous, why woudl I feel kinship with Tara?)

[stephenboothuk]

I've put it up at my site at:

http://www.abooth.demon.co.uk/lesbiancliche.htm

The only edits I made were to set the title line to Heading 1, all questions to Heading 2, add a small block at the top indicating the provenance of the document and linking back to both the thread and the board root and to, in the question relating to the Succubus Club interview with Steve DeKnight, put in a link to that interview.

I plan to list the questions at the top linking them to be clickable to take you to the appropriate question as soon as I remember how to do it in DreamWeaver.

If there's any problems please drop me an email at stephenbooth@bigfoot.com or an Yahoo! IM to stephenbooth_uk.

Stephen

[sikarja]

Great FAQ and pretty eye-opening for this poor, little straight boy.
I've actually watched most of the shows mentioned but never noticed.
Thanks for spelling out the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche an how it applies to Tara's death for someone who didn't really know about the Cliche.

[Willowlicious]

Just to let everyone know that the FAQ has now been forwarded to individually to Ethan, Candy and Kitty at the Succubus Club along with an e-mail politely explaining its intent.

Amy

[Aylandi]

Hi:

I had stopped reading this board because of all the bile being thrown DeKnight's way (I still think it was utterly unnecessary, no matter whether he lied or not) but I have to say this document is one of the smartest things I've seen... and it certainly convinced me of your cause. You should definitely send a copy to ME, if you haven't done so already, or try to get it to Fury through the Succubus club...

Ayl

[Wiccagrrl313]

Aylandi,

While I understand your reaction to some of the comments made regarding the Steve DeKnight interview, I think it's important to take things in context. People were very, very hurt by his comments, by his lack of respect and total dismissal of our feelings and the issues we have with this storyline. I think it was Xita who made this quote (which pretty much sums it up) Everyone has their breaking point. Steve DeKnight broke us.

If you read many of the later posts in that thread, once people got past the initial reactions, there are a lot of well-reasoned, intelligent posts discussing *why* people were so hurt and angered by it and by this storyline. In part, this FAQ is to some extent a response to the people who are judging us based on our being upset and don't quite get *why* we're so upset.

[FuBard]

I see that someone forwarded the FAQ to the Succubus club. Do you think that they will actually show it to Fury tomorrow, or that he will make any comments about it? I certainly hope that they do, as I'd love to see/hear him rebutt that vicious pack of facts.

I'm sure he'll either totally ignore it, evade the issues, or find some way to just sleeze right over them.

I'd give a lot to know if Joss Whedon ever sees a copy of it and would love to be a fly on the wall of his office if he ever talks about it to anyone.

FuBard

[Aylandi]

Wiccagrrl:

Although I am loath to continue this on the board (both because I think it's becoming a tired subject here and because I worry, although I think I'm being reasonable, that others will take offense at what I have to say -- I don't generally like conflict) I'll reply quickly because you did here, although this probably belongs in another thread.

I understand the context. I in fact lurk here quite a bit, even though I only occasionally post. I've been reading nearly every post here since the Tara spoiler broke, and lurked more than occasionally since the musical episode aired. So context, not really an issue. Unless I should be reading something other than this board.

The reason I made the comments above is because I consider the FAQ an appropriate and thoughtful reaction to what DeKnight said. I listened to the entirety of his interview, live. I think some (heck, most) of the things he said were incredibly inappropriate, and moreover poorly put for someone who makes a living off words.

Do I think that they therefore deserved an inappropriate response? IMHO, not from the intelligent and thought-provoking board that I have come to know and enjoy here. I was very surprised, in fact, by the tenor of the venom thrown his way. I understand that people have a right to their reactions. I do think that they ought to express their reactions responsibly -- but if they don't, well, life goes on and I just start reading somewhere else. I know it wasn't everybody, and I know it died down, but it surprised me nonetheless.

I feel certain that someone will remark that this is me telling people how they ought to feel. It is not -- I recognize that my opinions exist only truly for my own amusement. It is simply saying that I was disappointed earlier -- now, having read this FAQ, I am much more inclined to read here again. This should, and I imagine does, matter really to no one but myself, and I don't intend to be superior or preachy -- just trying to clarify that I am not speaking completely thoughtlessly about this or without context.

It may be indicative that I am now slightly (just a little bit) worried about posting this and being deleted and thrown off the board. I'm awfully insecure about such things, however.

Ayl

[kyraroc]

Edited to add: . . . aaaand, the post I wrote this in reply to seems to be gone now. Should I just delete this?

*******************************************

Buttins83 -

Trying to stick to BtvS alone would be kind of missing the point. We were trying to point out that BtvS is participating in a cliche which is prevalent throughout media. And yes, of course, it is possible to find counterexamples of happy lesbian couples in the vast history of fiction; our point was that the "lesbian dies/lesbian turns evil" trope happens so alarmingly frequently and in so many different cases that it is still an astoundingly widespread cliche, not that it happens every single time a lesbian character is introduced everywhere ever.

Yes, bad things have happened to all of the couples on BtvS. Yes, a bad thing happened to another character right after he had sex, too. (Of course, I don't think it's hard to argue that no other couple on the show quite reached the level of one member being shot to death in the bedroom where they had been having sex soon before and splattering her blood all over the shirt of her lover before dying in her arms, causing the lover to go insane and decide to torture someone to death, try to kill a couple of other people who weren't even there, and then go on to attempt to end the world, but . . . let's even waive that point, for now.)

The point is, in each of those cases, there were lots of heterosexuals and heterosexual couples around in the show, and on other, different shows, to provide counterexamples. To clearly show that this isn't something that's happens to *all* straight men or *all* straight women or *all* heterosexual couples, but something that's happening to one particular character at one particular time. But there are no counterexamples of other lesbian couples on Buffy. Which might not be so bad - lesbians are a minority after all - except, hey, there are pretty much no counterexamples on network TV. Which might not be a cause for despair except that in so many movies, books, plays - hey, the lesbians die or go evil there, too. Which is why the FAQ isn't about BtvS alone - because it's not just about Buffy, it's about the nearly universally bleak picture of the chances lesbian couples have which is historically and currently prevalent in the media, and how Buffy has fallen right into that genre.

Sigh. I was kind of hoping the FAQ would make this kind of thing clear . . .

--- KR

[xita]

That's why it was deleted, some people don't want to get it.

[roamin]

Thanks to everyone who worked on this and is posting it.
I hope the FAQ finds the audience it needs to.
I think I've said before that when word first broke of Tara's death that I thought the Kittens were overreacting, but after reading the many well written arguments, you won me over, and I think this document will win over some folks too.
Thanks and kudos to the authors.

[sleah]

I think your FAQ is a very interesting document, and while I don't agree with all of it, I appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness that went into it. The point is really to make viewers think about these issues - and you've certainly succeeded at that.

That said: I agree that this "killing Tara" storyline contributes to the problem of gay characters on television meeting an unfair share of untimely deaths. I don't think, though, that Willow turning evil will really be construed by those who actively follow the show as reinforcing the association between lesbianism and evil (although I don't doubt that casual viewers who don't know the context could certainly interpret it that way).

At the end of the day, I definitely don't want to see television reinforcing that association - but within the context of this show, I think it is actually okay.

[tommo]

Good! And within the context of life, I shall assume that this is also the case.

Life reflecting art and vice versa. Bah.

[the literary exterminator]

I think your post is a very interesting document, and while I don't agree with all of it, I appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness that went into it. The point is really to make Kittens think about these issues - and you've certainly succeeded at that.

That said: I agree that your post does consist of a message on a ``message board''. I don't think, though, that your arguement will really be construed by those who actively follow the Kitten as a point that has not been addressed time and time again by the members of this board (although I don't doubt that casual lurkers who don't know the board could certainly interpret it as unique).

At the end of the day, I definitely don't want to see your post deleted - but within the context of this board, I think it is actually okay.

[pandorra0]

while i rather like the faq and all i have a small ot question. who was larry? i have seen him mentioned among the gay characters who died, but i don't remember him.

oh, and something else. i will vomit all over my new 80s couch if they make willow straight again next season, if i last that long. i can just see them discussing the evil lesbian spell that tara put on her...

oh nevermind. just drifting off in anger.

[the literary exterminator]

Larry was a high school classmate of the Scoobs who died in the Battle of the Snake at the end of Season Three. He was quite the stereotypical bully-jock type until he came to terms with his homosexuality, unwittingly assisted by Xander. He was gay. Now he's dead.

[pandorra0]

oh yeah, i remember him now, thanks.

[BytrSuite]

Just wanted to add my thanks to Kyraroc, Willowlicious and everyone else who helped get this FAQ together. I really appreciate all the work y'all put into it. It's nice to have this available to help answer questions that might come up.

[tyche]

Okay, I didnt get round to printing this out and reading it through till now, so there are a couple of things Id like to add .. sorry if its too late.
* The X/A and W/T comparison gets even stronger if you point out that X/A have had non-metaphorical and fairly explicit sex and sexual encounters on multiple occasions without either one of them ending up dead or evil.
* Similarly, I think the point about other couples on the show (W/O, B/R etc) having sex scenes of a kind which W/T never got to have, without any bad consequences for either party, could be made a little more forcefully.
* You might also want to point out that Xander and Spike are currently protected from being killed off, since they're the only 2 male regulars now that Giles has left. (Networks like to maintain a gender balance of regular cast members for purposes of demographics - e.g. Fred was added to the regular cast of 'Angel' to make it look more female-friendly. This might also be why they were reluctant to make Amber a regular.)
* Couple of grammar points (Im a grammar geek, feel free to ignore):
i) It might be better to say that the behaviour of VampWillow and Faith had bisexual undertones/subtext, cause it sounds a bit confusing if you say its the actual characters.
ii) I think the point about Buffy having sex with 2 vampires is good: you could add something along the lines of in Sunnydale, its safer to sleep with a serial killer/vampire than with a person of the same sex.
iii) The Tara-death storyline is clichd, not clich.
Sorry for being a total nitpicker.

[truewtlove]

Just read it - and its absolutely brilliant (and I'm a straight white male). I hope David Fury does read it and show it to his bosses, and thank you for making it such a reasoned piece. Will it make a difference? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it has a better chance than anything I could think of.

[Unregistered(d)]

I just wanted to say thanks for the nice commentary on the state of prejudicial affairs towards the lesbian community. My partner and I watched the fall of Tara and Willow with horror, and were reminded of the torturous demise of Xena last year. Once again, I find I am searching the internet to see if others are as disturbed about this plot change as we are, and Im glad to see that many are stating their opinions.

The distressing thing is that lots of people, even ones in our community, never notice that negativity towards lesbians and gays is indeed the message that Hollywood bombards society with on a regular basis. I felt so strongly about this fact that I included commentary in a chapter of my partners and my upcoming book How To Be A Happy Lesbian: A Coming Out Guide

Here's an excerpt of that chapter, although the last paragraph will sadly have to be edited before the book is released next month.

        Books and films are an important part of our world. Sometimes they represent the true heart and feelings about what is going on during a certain time in history. In the beginning, lesbians and gay men were usually portrayed as emotionally sick and full of self-loathing in both books and film. Today, books have gone past that image, although most mainstream films are still lagging behind.
        Im not talking about the wonderful independent films that are winning awards at film festivals across the world and being viewed in arty film houses. What I am talking about are the films featuring lesbians as main characters done by big Hollywood studios. Almost all of these still portray lesbians as drug addicts, killers, thieves, suicidal, or confused women who, after some hot love scene with a lesbian, come to their senses and fall into the first straight mans arms they can find. I can only think of one mainstream film, with well-known actors, where the two women literally went off into the sunset on a bus. Of course they went off with a bunch of illegal money from a laundering scam, but hey, thats better than them dying tragic deaths like most of the others.
        It is time for a changefor us to be viewed as we really are. Not as some desperate sex-crazed dykes who would kill you in a second for money or drugs. Maybe it is because our lives are so normal that it just doesnt make good fiction, but I dont believe that. For homophobia to decrease, people need to realize that we are pretty much the same as anyone else. Working hard, paying bills, and living day to day. If we are viewed as the scourge of society, it gives that same society a reason to believe all the false stereotypes that they have been fed for years.
        Now I know that there are huge financial reasons for having high drama on the lesbian prairie. I realized this hard fact when my partner and I went to see Philadelphia and half the people in the theatre walked out when the two guys kissed. The good thing is I do see a change eventually happening. With the increase of somewhat normal lesbian characters on TV, featured on shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and ER, more people will be exposed to the fact that we are not all sick pervs trying to seduce straight guys wives or children . . .

Copyright 2002
Used by permission of Amazing Dream Publishing
www.amazingdreamspublishing.com/

The question is, what can we do? Should we boycott Buffy, or should we bombard the producers with angry letters like the Xenites did last year? All I know for sure that will work is to hit them where it hurts-- in their wallets. The only problem is is that there are so many other folks who are happy to see the lesbians suffer, it leaves we who are outraged as a small minority of the viewers.

Im not sure what the answer is, but I will be calling my editor to change the coming out guide to not include Buffy as one of the few shows which has somewhat normal lesbian characters on TV.

Sincerely,
Tracey Stevens

[WebWarlock]

Could someone PLEASE post this to the Usenet?!

I am sick of going there and I can't right now.

Anyone, please.

Warlock

[IvanovaDV]

Tracey, very well put.

Please, when you edit the last paragraph, do not leave ER there either...(nobody's dead, yes, but Kim got fired for being a lesbian, and nobody rectified the situation, and Kerry, for most of the season, was miserable, turned professionally incompetent, was mocked and hated by *all* her staff, got outed to her co-workers against her will by her former gf, and then took the very same gf back stating she did her a favor with the outing. Ick.)