Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[maudmac]

As great as the intimacy between Tara and Willow was in "Seeing Red," really and truly, we still didn't get to see them doing more than kissing and snuggling. We saw far more than we ever had before, but the one scene that would have been a bona fide sex scene was edited. (The "Evil's...good" ending of the scene at Tara's apartment.)

Contrast this with the graphic soft-core porn of the Spuffy stuff this season, and it's even more striking how differently their relationship was treated.

[Rally]

Well the relationships were treated differently because they are. They treated W/T as a couple in love, and clearly had to go out of their way to push home the notion of Spuffy being unhealthy. In the end though, the censors strike again. But you still cannot let ME off the hook for waiting until Entorpy and Seeing Red to decide to try break all network barriers at once.

[maudmac]

Like we needed to hear that zipper to know that Spuffy is/was a dysfunctional relationship.

ME wants to blame UPN, just like they blamed the WB. But even if UPN had said, "You can have ___ seconds of W/T kissing this season," or, "You can have ___ W/T kisses this season," it does nothing to absolve ME of the blame for using most of the "allowance" in the very episode in which Tara dies, thus linking her sexuality with her death.

(Still bitter? Oh, yeah. )

[tyche]

Just wanted to add that the network was probably more okay with the W/T sexual stuff in Entropy and SR b/c the characters were punished immediately afterwards.
If I ever get to be a successful screenwriter (not likely, but you never know), I swear I'm going to write a lesbian romance that DOESN'T end in death, despair and destruction. It would be the least I could do for all you kitties.

[xita]

I agree tyche and that is why I wish they had chosen not to do it, because it supports the network's position on this. Remember who was it that guy from that HBO show on the view was it didn't they say the network policy was like,

can't show same sex kissing unless it is a joke or it has consequences

[tommo]

That's fine, having consequences. Because you know, most kisses worth sitting up and watching [b:3ed5820124] do[/b:3ed5820124]. But I'm buggered if those consequences include watching your soulmate and the love of your life die in front of you. I'm a little confused as to just what lesson I'm supposed to be learning here, as a gay woman. That I shouldn't kiss my girlfriend near a window? That she shouldn't wear blue? That neither of us should allude to the fact that, shock horror, we might actually have had sex?

[i:3ed5820124] *shakes head*[/i:3ed5820124]

I will never understand tv networks and honestly, I don't want to if these are the decisions they make. I used to have grandiose ideas about writing for tv, but now I realise that anything I might come up with would probably be laughed out of the studio because, dear god in heaven, it has gay people in it.

[Wiccagrrl313]

And, more importantly, gay people who actually have sex and aren't constantly miserable/evil/insane/dead. We can't have that, you know...

[Sheridan]

What lesson is anyone supposed to draw other than Lesbian sex is a sure path to death and madness?

[Killin Joke]

Uh... never break a yellow crayon or it'll break you...? (sorry for being cynical)

[Ben Varkentine]

OK guys, I need your help again. I know that since the airing of "Seeing Red" a number of the ME writers have made funny, funny jokes about it. I know this because you've mentioned them on the board. But again, if anyone can point me direct places, I'd really appreciate it.

I know that Whedon did the "we're so over the gay thing" bit...was it Fury who said the one thing he'd learned was "never kill the Lesbian?" And who was it who made the crack about Xander and Spike being "domestic partners?"

Off now to see if I can track 'em down, but hoping you guys have better memories than I do,

[AutumnT]

You should check out the posts about the Succubus Club interview on the archived spoiler board. Also go here: www.cise.ufl.edu/~hsiao/m...fy/bronze/ for an archive of their posts at the BronzeBeta where some of the "jokes" were made.

[Ben Varkentine]

OK, I've found Joss's comments, but I still can't find the other two yet...

[AutumnT]

The domestic partners thing can be found here: www.cise.ufl.edu/~hsiao/m...20701.html

[Ben Varkentine]

Found 'em all now, thanks, AutumnT.

[NewRuthRising]

I'm not sure if anyone's said this before, but has anyone tryed sending a copy of the FAQ to Joss/ME/someone else relevant? Just a thought.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Yes. And we pretty much know Joss has read it. (based on some comments at the Bronze posted a short while after being given the link to the FAQ)

[roamin]

Hey Ben, once you get them all, maybe you could post them in the quotes thread. That will make it easy for people to cite exact quotes and dates in any letters they choose to write.

[Podko]

I agree with some of the points made in the FAQ. It's passionate yet well reasoned.
I think shooting Tara was vulgar. Guns don't belong on Buffy. Plus, Tara had that whole Earth Mother/protectiveness vibe going on (she was more of a Mom to Dawn than Buffy, IMO) why not let her die in the act of saving another?
What I do disagree with the FAQ about is that I think her death was "earned." (NOT in the sense that it was deserved, but rather the character could be killed and people mourned the character, as opposed to killing a one dimensional lesbian) To say that a character shouldn't be killed because they are gay might be right on most shows. Because usually, a gay characters' main reason for existing is to add a gay character for ratings. Killing a one dimensional gay character is a horrible cliche.
But what was great about Tara was that her sexual preference was one of the least interesting things about her. She was pretty fleshed out even though she was just a girlfriend of a scooby. Compare her to Anya (like money, hates bunnies) and I think it's fair to say she was written as the lover of Willow, not the gay lover of Willow. Kudos to ME for showing a long term lesbian relationship that was realistic.
Except for the lack of kisses and lovemakeing, but I don't think they have much choice there, which is screwed up. Buffy can orgasm on camera but we had to wait a year to see willow and tara kiss in "The Body."
I guess what I'm disagreeing with most is the view that because there is a long history of gay men and women being punished by death in movies and tv (I had to turn off the CC"Celluloid Closet" after that poor man was murdered in the bathroom, and it ranks up there with the most appaling things I've ever seen on tv) and or because Will and Tara were a great couple to watch, Tara shouldn't have died. Joss said in some interview that the idea that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay was as offensive as not being able to show a gay relaitionship at all. If you believe that gays should be represented realistically on television, then you can't cry foul when they die. It's part of life. I understand the frustration, because realistic gay couples are rare on television, but you wouldn't care and it wouldn't hurt half as much if Will and Tara had been written as "Hey were gay! we spend our days marching in Gay Pride Parades. Wanna watch us kiss?" lesbians i.e. Ally McBeal et.al.
But for Willow to want to destoroy the word, Tara had to not be in it. It sucks. But no one is ever happy ever after on Buffy.

[AutumnT]

You're not getting the point. Read it again.

[tommo]

[quote:2d4da19bcb][b:2d4da19bcb][i:2d4da19bcb]Quote:[/i:2d4da19bcb][/b:2d4da19bcb]

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[b:2d4da19bcb] If you believe that gays should be represented realistically on television, then you can't cry foul when they die. It's part of life.[/b:2d4da19bcb]

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[/quote:2d4da19bcb]

No, you see, that's just it. It's not part of life. Gay representation on network television hadn't been a part of US tv life [b:2d4da19bcb] until[/b:2d4da19bcb] Willow and Tara. [b:2d4da19bcb] That's[/b:2d4da19bcb] why they should have been treated with dignity, not the senseless way in which they were.

I'm crying foul. I don't care. I'm crying foul.

[Podko]

I read it thouroghly the first time and I do get it's points, I just disagree with some of them.

[AutumnT]

OK then. To be more explicit [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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But what was great about Tara was that her sexual preference was one of the least interesting things about her.

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[/quote:1705d50419] Maybe to you. To many gay kids it was the most important thing. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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She was pretty fleshed out even though she was just a girlfriend of a scooby.

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[/quote:1705d50419] And still the ONLY Scooby significant other treated like a second class citizen in the credits. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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Compare her to Anya (like money, hates bunnies) and I think it's fair to say she was written as the lover of Willow, not the gay lover of Willow.

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[/quote:1705d50419] And this makes NO sense. She was the gay lover of Willow. It was two girls who were lovers. They were gay. Willow practically screamed she was gay every episode this season. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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Kudos to ME for showing a long term lesbian relationship that was realistic.

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[/quote:1705d50419] And this is the argument I hate most of all. That I should just shut up and be thankful for what I had no matter what happened.
[quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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Except for the lack of kisses and lovemakeing, but I don't think they have much choice there, which is screwed up. Buffy can orgasm on camera but we had to wait a year to see willow and tara kiss in "The Body."

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[/quote:1705d50419] Which is EXACTLY why this relationship was important. It was groundbreaking. It is needed. Because we don't see those reflections of ourselves on TV.[quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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I guess what I'm disagreeing with most is the view that because there is a long history of gay men and women being punished by death in movies and tv (I had to turn off the CC"Celluloid Closet" after that poor man was murdered in the bathroom, and it ranks up there with the most appaling things I've ever seen on tv) and or because Will and Tara were a great couple to watch, Tara shouldn't have died.

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[/quote:1705d50419] Well then exactly why should she have? Explain why it was so damn important to go and kill another lesbian and make one evil. If you are one of those who think that Dark Willow was kewl there were other ways for that to happen. Other significant others were merely written off the show. Tara's death was the most brutal we've ever seen on Buffy. When else do you recall seeing that much blood, hmm?[quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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Joss said in some interview that the idea that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay was as offensive as not being able to show a gay relaitionship at all.

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[/quote:1705d50419] First of all this was not "some interview" it was online when he was in a mad scramble to defend himself against criticism about what he did. He also told us at that point that it hurt him more than any of us. Because I am sure the death of one of the only representations of a lesbian on TV really tore him up as a straight white affluent male. He did it because he could. Who cares if it was offensive to him. What he did was highly offensive to us. And his disgusting joking along with the rest of the ME staff about it like "the gay thing is so passe" is unexcusable. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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If you believe that gays should be represented realistically on television, then you can't cry foul when they die. It's part of life.

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[/quote:1705d50419] But you know what we don't get to see the rest of their lives like EVER. That's what made this special. Believe me we are well aquainted with the death part. And did we need to see the death in this manner? I don't think so. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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I understand the frustration

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[/quote:1705d50419]No, I really don't think you do. At all. [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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because realistic gay couples are rare on television, but you wouldn't care and it wouldn't hurt half as much if Will and Tara had been written as "Hey were gay! we spend our days marching in Gay Pride Parades. Wanna watch us kiss?" lesbians i.e. Ally McBeal et.al.

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[/quote:1705d50419] Now this is just a bunch of BS thrown out as a smoke screen. There's no need for you to do this. It makes it kinda clear you're not getting it.
[quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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But for Willow to want to destoroy the word, Tara had to not be in it.

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[/quote:1705d50419] And why the hell did she need to want that? Hmm? [quote:1705d50419][b:1705d50419][i:1705d50419]Quote:[/i:1705d50419][/b:1705d50419]

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But no one is ever happy ever after on Buffy.

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[/quote:1705d50419] Yeah, but chances are if you're straight you're alive.

[friskylez]

Just re read the Lesbian FAQ and it is truly awesome...Im so glad someone who went to the convention in Toronto was able to give Amber a copy I can just see her reading it and thinking wow, this is powerful stuff...She might even have a few tears reading about the love the kittens have for Tara/Amber and the way she was treated..

Who could read that and not be touched...Amber is already one beautiful lady inside and out, im sure she will take this FAQ to heart and realize what she meant to gays and lesbians everywhere, young and old..I know she has an idea of how much she is loved and appreciated but to see it right there in black and white in front of you, validates it so much more...Wonderful job kittens!!!!!

[tommo]

Wow Autumn. You said it girl. And yep, I agree with you there. If you're straight, you're safe. Nuff said.

[Warduke]

You so rock Autumn

I love people who tell us that they get it, yet with every sentence they say, prove they absolutely don't get it at all.

[WebWarlock]

Podko,

What exactly is your point then?
To come here and tell us how wrong we are? To tell us we should be happy with what we got?

Why can't the Willow and Tara fans have it all?

Where is it written that we have to settle for half? Or be thankful for 45 minutes of loving time they had and the rest of forever for them to be apart.

You don't get it. I normally don't tell that to people here when they make a point of trying to understand, but I don't think you did. Reread the FAQ and reread Autumn's responses.

You can have a different opinion, that is great.

But don't you dare tell me or my friends in our home that we are wrong and we should be happy that we had them at all.

Warlock

[Podko]

OK then. To be more explicit
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But what was great about Tara was that her sexual preference was one of the least interesting things about her.
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-Maybe to you. To many gay kids it was the most important thing.-

And I can understand why they would care about her in particular. My point was that the character was not defined solely by her sexual preference. My brother is gay, but there are about 9 other words I'd use to describe him before I got to gay (professor, mountan climber, short, goofy. et.c).
Quote:
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She was pretty fleshed out even though she was just a girlfriend of a scooby.
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-And still the ONLY Scooby significant other treated like a second class citizen in the credits.-

Right on there, but I think that probably had more to do with contracts, number of eps, et.c. Buffy's Mom was never in the credits.



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Compare her to Anya (like money, hates bunnies) and I think it's fair to say she was written as the lover of Willow, not the gay lover of Willow.
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-And this makes NO sense. She was the gay lover of Willow. It was two girls who were lovers. They were gay. Willow practically screamed she was gay every episode this season.-
Well, I wasn't being literal. Of course she was gay. I'm just saying that it was refreshing that there was more to the character than the fact she was gay. Minus network censorship, Willow and Tara weren't written any differently than a hetero couple on the series.

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Kudos to ME for showing a long term lesbian relationship that was realistic.
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-And this is the argument I hate most of all. That I should just-shut up and be thankful for what I had no matter what happened.-

I'm not asking you to shut up, I'm just saying that good work deserves credit.

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Except for the lack of kisses and lovemakeing, but I don't think they have much choice there, which is screwed up. Buffy can orgasm on camera but we had to wait a year to see willow and tara kiss in "The Body."
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_Which is EXACTLY why this relationship was important. It was groundbreaking. It is needed. Because we don't see those reflections of ourselves on TV_

True, but the purpose of the show is to tell the writers stories, and if they felt they needed to kill Tara to do it properly, I won't argue.

Quote:
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I guess what I'm disagreeing with most is the view that because there is a long history of gay men and women being punished by death in movies and tv (I had to turn off the CC"Celluloid Closet" after that poor man was murdered in the bathroom, and it ranks up there with the most appaling things I've ever seen on tv) and or because Will and Tara were a great couple to watch, Tara shouldn't have died.
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_Well then exactly why should she have? Explain why it was so damn important to go and kill another lesbian and make one evil. If you are one of those who think that Dark Willow was kewl there were other ways for that to happen. Other significant others were merely written off the show. Tara's death was the most brutal we've ever seen on Buffy. When else do you recall seeing that much blood, hmm?

Why? Because the writers felt like it would make the best story. As for the method of death, I agree they should have found a better way.

[WebWarlock]

Joss will never get any credit for me for anything. He has deystroyed something that was beyond himself.

I will not not honor him for creating something he planed to destroy from the start.

Tara was never a character to him. She was only a plot device. and a shallow one at that.

Warlock

[Warduke]

[quote:3b1da6d1b0][b:3b1da6d1b0][i:3b1da6d1b0]Quote:[/i:3b1da6d1b0][/b:3b1da6d1b0]

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True, but the purpose of the show is to tell the writers stories, and if they felt they needed to kill Tara to do it properly, I won't argue.

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[/quote:3b1da6d1b0]

And [b:3b1da6d1b0] this[/b:3b1da6d1b0] is why you really don't get it.

Yes, the show is there to tell the writers stories, but why go there at all? They knew perfectly well about the lesbian clich, yet they did it anyway, in fact, they took it to a whole new level of nastiness.

For this there is NO excuse, NO explanation and NO understanding, they fucked up and they know it, they just dont care, and on my part, there will no forgiveness or forgetting.

If you dont see it that, then why are you even posting here? If it's only to make excuses for the writers, then there are plenty of other boards to do that on. ME wont be defended on this board.

[kyraroc]

I must admit I find the idea that "what happened to Tara and Willow was forgivable because of everything they were up until that point" one of the oddest arguments around. That's exactly the reason *why* it's such an outrage this time. Lesbians drop dead on television all the time, or it wouldn't be a cliche in the first place - but when it happened on, say, "Law and Order" or "Northern Exposure" or "Babylon 5", etc., etc., etc., it didn't raise this level of anger. On those shows, fans weren't encouraged to believe by both the events of the show and the words of the writers themselves that this time, something would be different. They weren't given over two years to become attached to and invested in the relationship. The betrayal this time is GREATER because we let ourselves hope that this show wouldn't be like all the others. But, in the end, it was. Textbook cliche. The years of Willow/Tara goodness doesn't make this better - it makes it worse because rather than just seeing the usual horror, we got to have our hopes crushed as well.

Equally strange is the "but they weren't lesbians, they were people" argument. Huh? Last time I checked, lesbians *were* people, and Willow and Tara were both people and lesbians. The only way they could have been people but not lesbians is if they were, well, not lesbians. It's part of who they are, isn't it? And in terms of writing, who characters are is intimately related to what happens to them. That's not political - that's just *theme*, the basic way we are trained to read stories as having plots with meanings rather than simply being random events following one after another for no reason or purpose. And if certain conventions of theme are endemic to a society, you can either work deliberately against them, choose not to introduce the idea at all and have the conventions be either assumed or irrelevant, or introduce the idea and fall into the cliche. And guess what happened here? People who were lesbians were introduced, immediately making lesbian themes relevant however they chose to go with them and whoever those people were . . . and the show fell into the old dead/evil cliche lesbian theme.

So, the first argument always reads to me as, "Don't get angry - at least it was something important that was destroyed, and isn't that much better than something trivial being destroyed?", and the second one always reads to me as, "Don't be silly - how could a concept which is deliberately introduced as being part of a character and reiterated over and over again throughout the course of a series over a period of years be construed as being part of who the character was and relevant to how their story eventually turned out?"

For some reason, I don't buy those.

--- KR