Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[BBOvenGuy]

Just to fill out some of our ME quotage, here's what Joss said on August 1 2000, when he got the toaster:

[quote:c009a32917][b:c009a32917][i:c009a32917]Quote:[/i:c009a32917][/b:c009a32917]

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joss says:
(Tue Aug 1 22:09:04 2000 205.188.192.33)

LESBIAN TOASTER
LOVE YOU THE MOST
ALTERNATIVE LIFEstyle CHOICE TOASTER
HOT GIRL-ON-GIRL TOAST
(DRUM SOLO)
LESBIAN TOASTER AH-WHOOOOO!
(TRIANGLE SOLO)
TOAST FOR YOU AND FOR ME....

Got an Emmy nom, all very well but my beautiful engraved (ENGRAVED, for the love of God) toaster is far far cooler. THANK YOU to all my toaster buddies. The ringleaders will be identified and ruthlessly thanked. Meanwhilst, toasty joy and sincere thinks. Can't wait to show Aly and Amber. ALSO, it happens not only to be a beautiful design, but the exact same design as my toaster WHICH JUST BROKE DOWN. That's fate.

So thanks, and thanks, and thanks. Bread shall be warm.

(you know, I forgot th'damn color codes.)

Jossage.

---

[/quote:c009a32917]

Methinks the Bronze VIP archives might be worth a little more browsing to see what else we can come up with. They're here:

www.cise.ufl.edu/~hsiao/m.../archives/

[Zahir al Daoud]

This is directed at the poster using the nom-de-net "Reality Speaks."

Having spent a chunk of this afternoon reading your posts I seem to have figured out what your viewpoint seems to be:

Overtly, you seem to be saying that if Lesbians (or any minority) are always portrayed in negative stereotypes, they may have the [i:70a9e170cc]legal[/i:70a9e170cc] right to complain about it, but no [i:70a9e170cc]moral[/i:70a9e170cc] right. More, that if they can't help but complain, then they certainly shouldn't allow any emotions involved to show. And that anyone involved in the entertainment industry should certainly not listen to these complaints under any circumstances.

Based on what you've posted, those seem to be your views. And despite your personal disapproval, I'm going to disagree with all of them, and say so. Even without your permission. Does that come across as sarcastic? Good. It was intended as such. Your words have invited my sarcasm. Please take responsibility for the reaction your words have inspired, and I will take responsibility for what I myself actually say.

Feedback--even angry, bitter feedback--is a vital part of both public discourse and the artistic process. Yes, listening to mellow voices speaking in a detached tone is a more pleasent way of confronting controversy. But pretending that is the only way--or even the best way--is unrealistic. The U.S. Civil Rights Movement owes much to the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. urging love and peace. It owes at least as much to Malcolm X giving a public voice to a generations-old rage. Just as the whole idea of Gay Rights stems from the Stonewall Riots--people who simply refused to be treated like criminals any more, and made that fact clear with their fists.

Kittens, by contrast, have hurled the kind of epitephs Gary Trudeau used to routinely aim at Richard Nixon. Hardly in the same league.

What especially caught my attention was your use of the term "PC" in lieu of any real argument. I cannot deny there are those (on both the Right and Left) who react instantly and pretty much thoughtlessly, demanding a rigid adherence to essentially arbitrary rules (in the effort to be "fair" i.e. promote their own values). What you haven't done is demonstrate that those who see something irresponsible and wrong in ME's treatment of the Willow/Tara storyline deserve this label.

Another thing I don't see is the slightest hint that you would ever reconsider your own position--something Joss Whedon, Marti Noxton and others [i:70a9e170cc]have shown[/i:70a9e170cc] and that, more than anything (imo) justifies the outcry by my fellow Kittens.

[The Destroyer]

I dont have much to add Zahir other than that I completely agree with you.
Nothing annoys me more than the idea that opinions should not be held, and kept to ourselves.
Lets face it, the gay community (and I realise the fact that not all Kittens are gay) have only had 30 years (less in some places) of being allowed to express their opinion. I think they can do with a little longer

[Magrat70]

The thing that pisses me off about Mr Reality is that he doesn't live in my reality.

If he can tell me the last time he was insulted walking down the street with his partner or if he has ever had to give witness statement after he has been assulted on the street. Had a commuity pub he has drunk in blown up by a mad nail bomber (The Admiral Duncan, Soho if he wants to look it up). These things have all happened to me because I'm a lesbian and if he wants to talk about PC he can; beacause that is all that it is talk, PC doesn't not exist on the streets, that is why Willow and Tara was so important to prove to young gay people it is okay; your life can mean some thing. that to love someone of your own sex is okay and can be so good.

[Hemiola]

Everyone who has the time should head over to the All Things Philosophical on BtVS Discussion Board and check out the [b:fcb49fc555] VERY[/b:fcb49fc555] interesting discussions on:

1. "Awareness of the Cliche"
and
2. "Joss on the Death of Tara"

here's the url: www.voy.com/14567/

[Sheridan]

I've looked at a couple of these baords now and I can't help thinking that the Cliche is being used as smoke screen to avoid discussing the bigger picture with Tara's death:

The lies before she died
he failiure to include Amber in the credits until SR
The lousy plot and total ignoring of Tara after her death
The flippant and sarcastic reamrsk by the writers.

A lot of people who don't share our views seem only too happy to nit-pick about the cliche and the FAQ thus avoiding awkward questions about the fact that a great romance and two great characters were trashed to let Xander be the big hero.

[emma peel]

I know what you mean about the other boards, Sheridan. I went to buffyguide.com forum (I think it was that) yesterday, and read some pretty stupid and vitriolic stuff that Ben Varkentine and hilarita were trying to rebut, but I think those other posters were just too into still thinking that joss is god and spike is wonderful and the kittens are all crazy. It was humorous in a sad pathetic way.Their arguments were just so stupid.
What was interesting to me was that the person who started the thread was posting for the FIRST TIME, as was one of the other posters.
Ben and hilarita were wonderful.
Willow and Tara forever.
The Kitten Board is a safe haven.
Sorry if this was too OT.
Janice

[Ben Varkentine]

As far as *I'm* concerned, any post in which the word "Ben" is closely followed by "wonderful" is never OT. I don't know about anybody else... :-)

But yeah, Hil was pretty good wasn't she? And one or two other folks spoke up and identified themselves as shy, lurking Kittens (Hi guys!)

[tyche]

I should just point out that one of the people on the Watchers' Diary who does believe in the cliche is my fiance - he occasionally posts here under the name thor, but he's registered on the Watchers' Diary as thorsdad. He's always sticking up for Tara on that board, and I am proud of him.

[WebWarlock]

There are a lot of good points here.

Ok, first the ATP boards.
Very well thought out posts, they don't all agree with our point of view, but I do get the feeling everyone there understands we have a right to our point of view. Unlike some other boards that wish we would just shut up.

Speaking of which. Good job over at "that-other-board" Ben! You defended the Kittens honor! I went there and basically pointed that every single insane post they quoted was from me and I don't represent Kitten policy or popular opinion. I think it sorta diffused that.

Now Sheridan's points.

here they are again.
[b:c0accd1476] The lies before she died
The failiure to include Amber in the credits until SR
The lousy plot and total ignoring of Tara after her death
The flippant and sarcastic reamrsk by the writers.[/b:c0accd1476]

YES! The Cliche has become so big in the eyes of everyone else they are using it as if it was our only arguement against ME. It is not.

These four points above are VERY IMPORTANT and should not be forgotton. Anyone going to the Comics Con should consider these in favor of any cliche' themed question, cause I think Joss is ready to shoot those down, he may not have an answer for these yet.

Quite frankly I would [b:c0accd1476] love[/b:c0accd1476] to know [i:c0accd1476] why[/i:c0accd1476] Amber was never included in the main credits. Just one more example of the second class treatment they gave her and Tara.

Warlock

[RealitySpeaks]

Some quick answers to some very questionable points + some thoughts about your campaign (glad that I got my earlier point across about the problems with the FAQ):

Q:The lies before she died.
A: What your group condemn as lies, is for other people proactively keeping the storyline a secret in a upfront way (a positive thing).

Q: The failure to include Amber in the credits until SR
A: In the TV business as in any other business you are not able to do whatever you want. Regarding Amber not appearing in credits Only ME knows, but could it be money considerations or other external business considerations/requirements?

Q:The lousy plot and total ignoring of Tara after her death
A: The plot of the ending episodes (incl. her unfortunate death) was actually very, very good (look outside this board for the many positive reviews). Tara was not ignored after her death (she mentioned in all of the last three episodes).

Q:The flippant and sarcastic remarks by the writers.
A: As opposed to remarks by this group? Many of the viewers (including me) tend to reply with the same kind of language when confronted with extreme remarks from this group. This may be unwise, but when did personality or (style of) disagreement become a crime.

The points themselves are good examples of the fact that you can find wrongdoing and insults in anything if you really want to. It is unfortunate that you as a group really want to and that such poorly justified points appear to be the unclouded basis for the strongly negative campaign that this board has been running.

I hear that board members like most all people have experienced hardship (possibly more). But that is not a moral justification for turning the tables on a convenient scapegoat.

Sure it is a nice bonding experience to have a common enemy to hate and exciting to write fuming articles, clichs and manifests about the cause but there should be more positive things to do. Love!

[xita]

Q:The lies before she died.
A: What your group condemn as lies, is for other people proactively keeping the storyline a secret in a upfront way (a positive thing).
[b:03988499ec] No, you can keep it a secret without lying. "Everyone is in jeopardy in our show. I can't really speak about the fiture of the show." Those are positive statements, "Tara's not going anywhere, she's a big part of the heart of the show," is manipulative and it is a lie, an attempt to gain favor with a certain community. It backfired and Joss NOR YOU have any reason to complain now cause we complain. Very weak argument on you part [/b:03988499ec]

Q: The failure to include Amber in the credits until SR
A: In the TV business as in any other business you are not able to do whatever you want. Regarding Amber not appearing in credits Only ME knows, but could it be money considerations or other external business considerations/requirements?
[b:03988499ec] Then they should have done the tasteful thing and 1 not pur her in or 2 left her in the credits for Villain. Again you are guessing at the reasons so I don't really see the point of you posting this, cause you have no reasons. I am giving you alternatives on how it could have been made less hurtful[/b:03988499ec]

Q:The lousy plot and total ignoring of Tara after her death
A: The plot of the ending episodes (incl. her unfortunate death) was actually very, very good (look outside this board for the many positive reviews). Tara was not ignored after her death (she mentioned in all of the last three episodes).

[b:03988499ec] Compare her treatment to the death of Joyce. Tara's body was taken out like trash and grief for her only expressed twice. Plus the removal of her name from ALL credits, not just title credits in Villains, clearly points to a dismissive "thanks for nothing" attitude. THe plot being good is a subjective thing and you aren't going to convince many here otherwise, so save your breath.[/b:03988499ec]

Q:The flippant and sarcastic remarks by the writers.
A: As opposed to remarks by this group? Many of the viewers (including me) tend to reply with the same kind of language when confronted with extreme remarks from this group. This may be unwise, but when did personality or (style of) disagreement become a crime.

[b:03988499ec] If you were actually a member of the board and had followed what happened, you would know that the ire of this group did not start till SDK made his infamous sarcastic, cruel remarks on The Succbus Club. Tit for tat I say. And for you, don't speak out of ignorance, do your research before you post again [/b:03988499ec]

[IvanovaDV]

[quote:2353bfd1be][b:2353bfd1be][i:2353bfd1be]Quote:[/i:2353bfd1be][/b:2353bfd1be]

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Sure it is a nice bonding experience to have a common enemy to hate and exciting to write fuming articles, clichs and manifests about the cause but there should be more positive things to do. Love!

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[/quote:2353bfd1be]
And this is exactly what glbt people are prevented from living freely.
Your gay brother may one day be beaten up (no, I do not wish this upon him) simply for being gay. I highly doubt you will ever be beaten up for being straight, no matter how "lesbian" you'd be if you were a woman.

That's a drastic example for the everyday homophobia many of us encounter; however, mass media play a big role in its perseverance.

Nobody has stated Joss is a homophobe; what has been stated here and elsewhere, however, is that he doesn't give a damn.

JW has earned a lot of money with the W/T storyline (amongst others). No negative campaigning will take it away, and that's fine. I just wonder why he should be spared from what the right to free speech allows every fan: expressing their dissatisfaction (and not shut up because it becomes inconvenient), trying to convince others, raise awareness, and stop watching.

According to Whedon, it's all about the story. Accordingly, he should be fine, no matter what anybody writes. If the story is good enough, the ratings will remain ...oops...I mean, will recover.

Added: As to the lying, I've observed tptb's statements for a while now, and many contradictions point to the fact they are not just "misinforming" about spoilers, but in retrospect, as well.

[Sheridan]

[b:a2ce548eea] Realityspeaks[/b:a2ce548eea] You want to keep a plot secret? Fine, here's a handy phrase, 'no comment'. Lying is lying.

Only ME knows why she wasn't in the titles? Gee maybe they could share with the rest of the world?

I can find you plenty of non kittens less than thrilled with the ending, and the viewing figures sort of speak for themselves.

As to the sarcasm, try and get your facts straight, much of the attitude you find so reprehensible was [b:a2ce548eea] caused[/b:a2ce548eea] by these remarks not the other way round. If you are going to keep coming in here actually doing some research and knowing what we are talking about would help. And consider this; there was no more loyal group of Buffy boosters than the kittens, now the show has lost them, does that constitute a successful season?

And as to your final remarks, again your lack of research betrays you, I'm an SWM, so I really have no vested interest in there being lesbian images on televsion, of course if you had read my posts elsewhere on the board you would have known that. And BTW before you condemn the lesbian members you might want to look at the 'have you ever been disowned...?' thread, and maybe, just maybe you might get a clue as to why they are so sensitive to such things.

[RealitySpeaks]

Answers to [xita]

RE: No, you can keep it a secret without lying.

Last year Joss and Marti publicly stated that they feel strongly about surprise and they where even spreading false rumors. So they did warn you in advance, which makes it hard to call subsequent statements outright lies.

A completely other argument against your theory of the big lie is that the old statements you mention that has taking out of context and may only reflect the sentiment at the exact time the question was asked (while the final and original plan probably was to have Tara die, who knows what the plan was at the time). Statements out of context or plans that has changed does not amount to "lies".

RE: They should have done the tasteful thing.

Well according to ME they where trying to thank Amber and surprise viewers by doing this. If the intention was tasteful that is was really matter - and not what some people mis-read the act as.

RE: Compare treatment + plot is subjective thing

Compared to most people killed on the show her death was treated extensively (I know that you are to intelligent to really mean that she was treated like trash so I will let that lie). And yes, plot is a subjective thing which was my point.

RE: Succbus clib interview remarks jujstification.

Well I did hear the SDK interview. It is cruel or offensive only if you mis-hear his remarks or take them out of context. Referring to the remarks, he even remarked that he got into trouble sometimes because of his irony/humor/style. Your reaction only proves that. Again, look for insult and you will find it everywhere.

RE: Ignorance etc.

Disagreement is not equal to ignorance or lack of research.

I think my recent two posting has clearly shown that all four points lack proof and/or is subjective (I may be wrong, you may be wrong but all points are without doubt up to discussion). As such the points cannot form the basis for any rational conclusion (nor hate).

[Zahir al Daoud]

Reality Speaks, at its heart your basic tenet still seems to be [i:7bd2aa6745][b:7bd2aa6745]gays and lesbians (or their friends) have no business being angry or expressing that anger[/b:7bd2aa6745][/i:7bd2aa6745] because to do so...well, you've never made that clear. Nor have you once acknowledged your own mistakes and misrepresentations (for example--no Kitten to my knowledge ever advocated censorship, and yes ME did [b:7bd2aa6745]lie[/b:7bd2aa6745] to the fans about Tara and no, we weren't accusing ME of homophobia).

Here's my challenge to you. Answer these questions please:

1. Does a minority routinely portrayed in a negative light have the right to complain about it?

2. Have gays and lesbians been negatively portrayed the way we claim (and please, if not, can you cite examples)?

3. Do audience members have the right to give feedback, even angry feedback, to creative artists?

4. What [i:7bd2aa6745]precisely[/i:7bd2aa6745] is it that we--the Kittens--have done wrong in your eyes by expressing our feelings and opinions in public?

5. Finally, what [i:7bd2aa6745]precisely[/i:7bd2aa6745] do you expect or want us to do, other than shut up and/or go away?

6. And why are you posting here? Yes, we all know you have a legal right to do so, but...why are you doing it?

[xita]

[quote:ed7ca8f741][b:ed7ca8f741][i:ed7ca8f741]Quote:[/i:ed7ca8f741][/b:ed7ca8f741]

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A completely other argument against your theory of the big lie is that the old statements you mention that has taking out of context and may only reflect the sentiment at the exact time the question was asked (while the final and original plan probably was to have Tara die, who knows what the plan was at the time). Statements out of context or plans that has changed does not amount to "lies".

---

[/quote:ed7ca8f741]

Hmm again you show your ignorance. If you are going to post conjecture don't bother. Joss did know when he made that quote. Do you know when that was? I do. It was at the end of season 5, made to EOnline about season 6. Joss had the whole season planned at this point. How do I know? Because SDK said so in his Succubus Club interview. Also because the things they try so hard to protect , Tara's brutal murder was already a spoiled deal, Herc had that spoiler shortly after this and published it. Herc at this point had spoilers through episode 7, very accurate spoilers, plus he said Willow as the big pad, propelled by Tara being killed. Is that proof enough for you? The statement is well know around here and my kitties are very well researched and know the context. You obviously don't, go research come back later.


from eonline,

[quote:ed7ca8f741][b:ed7ca8f741][i:ed7ca8f741]Quote:[/i:ed7ca8f741][/b:ed7ca8f741]

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From DeLisa in Columbus, Georgia: It shocked me, but I really love the Tara/Willow pairing. How long will Tara be around?
[b:ed7ca8f741] I have no plans to send Tara anywhere[/b:ed7ca8f741]. Amber [Benson] and Alyson [Hannigan] have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. [b:ed7ca8f741] As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show.[/b:ed7ca8f741]

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[/quote:ed7ca8f741]

And that whole time he said that, he knew Tara's blood would end up splattered all over Willow's face. Did he have to say that? Did he have to be so cruel. Did he have to lie about Amber, notice Delisa isn't even asking about Amber. He volunteers.

[mscheckmate]

[quote:e97d3d80b4][b:e97d3d80b4][i:e97d3d80b4]Quote:[/i:e97d3d80b4][/b:e97d3d80b4]

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A completely other argument against your theory of the big lie is that the old statements you mention that has taking out of context and may only reflect the sentiment at the exact time the question was asked (while the final and original plan probably was to have Tara die, who knows what the plan was at the time). Statements out of context or plans that has changed does not amount to "lies".

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[/quote:e97d3d80b4]

Joss had planned Tara's death well before season 6, and well before some of the interviews in which he was quoted as saying that he wasn't planning to send her anywhere and that the W/T relationship would continue. Documentation of that fact can be found throughout this board.

[quote:e97d3d80b4][b:e97d3d80b4][i:e97d3d80b4]Quote:[/i:e97d3d80b4][/b:e97d3d80b4]

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Compared to most people killed on the show her death was treated extensively (I know that you are to intelligent to really mean that she was treated like trash so I will let that lie). And yes, plot is a subjective thing which was my point.

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[/quote:e97d3d80b4]

Most people killed on the show are not Scoobies, or close friends or relatives of the Scooby gang. Tara's death was only treated extensively in comparison to that of the average peripheral character, human or otherwise, who dies in the course of a Buffy episode. Now compare the handling of Tara's death to Joyce's. No extended Scooby grief scenes. Just a body bag taken out of the house.

[Epicurus]

RealitySpeaks said:
[b:ab29369562]If the intention was tasteful that is was really matter - and not what some people mis-read the act as.
[/b:ab29369562]

Cmon you have to know that that statement does not make sense. You are so caught up with finding any way to debunk our opinion that youve lost your logic marbles.
I shouldnt interpret an image the way I think it was presented because the storyteller says thats not what I meant ? Television is ALL about interpretation. Whether YOU agree or disagree is the issue not whether ME had good intentions.

[b:ab29369562]It is cruel or offensive only if you mis-hear his remarks or take them out of context.[/b:ab29369562]

Im sorry but when did you become Steves interpreter?
You say we make poorly justified points in our agreement but all you have to say is that we mis-read or mis-hear things. What makes you the person who can judge and interpret BTVS, ME and The Kittens so perfectly that you can prove what is right and what is wrong
Give me a break.

[RealitySpeaks]

Quick answers to [ZAD] :

1. Yes, up to a limit as I have written before, 2. Maybe?, 3. Feedback yes, 4. See my earlier postings. 5. See my earlier postings, 6. I like buffy. I generally do not like personal assaults on any (TV) person or group. Also posting here is more challenging and productive than writing public articles with titles like why lesbians are not sick, deranged lunatics and hetrophobians, but (Important note: the title should not be read outside of this context. Is written only to prove a point and does not express any statement on my side.).

Edited to note that I am refering to an article written by a member of this group with a title using this subtle insult.

[BBOvenGuy]

Whenever I read something by Reality Speaks or some of the emails I've gotten about my essays, I'm reminded of the story about the Emperor's new clothes. These people don't like us because we're the ones running around saying Joss is naked, and they don't want to hear that.

[Sheridan]

[b:678d793332] Realityspeaks[/b:678d793332] Your view point is that there was nothing worng with S6, no one on the show lied or said anything out of place about Tara or Amber. Your argument to back this up? [b:678d793332] "because I say so."[/b:678d793332] You don't deny the misleading statements, we just took them out of context, the flippant comments? Well we just don't get their sense of humour. And there was nothing whatsoever wrong with S6 eps, despite comments to contrary by some ME people. You don't present an argument, you simply tell us that we are wrong or don't understand. Has it occured to you that maybe its you who is wrong? Silly question...

[AutumnT]

Why are we even still paying any attention whatsoever to a person who has continually insulted us and is only coming here to stir things up? They are clearly obsessed with the kitten board and with hearing themselves talk no matter how nonsensical it is. If this person does indeed have a gay brother, I feel sorry for him having a sibling that for some reason feels the need to seek out gay friendly boards and insult them for speaking their minds in their own homes.

[Epicurus]

[b:20db097aa0](Important note: the title should not be read outside of this context. Is written only to prove a point and does not express any statement on my side.).[/b:20db097aa0]

...yet you are the person who felt the need to post it on a gay friendly board, in a lesbian cliche thread and include THAT side note.
That tells me something about you, whether you like it or not.

[xita]

Yeah because he's going to assume, SKD's comments hurt my feelings after I read a transcript.

RS, were you in my house when I had my headphones on, my heart broken over Tara, listening to the succubus club, wanting to hear some respect for Tara, and all I got was insults and jokes. Were you here to see the tears rolling down my cheeks? HOW DARE YOU, make assumptions about what I felt, or how I heard it and how I interpret it.

You have no basis in fact other than, well suppositions, assumptions, conjectures. No facts, Joss lied, SKD was rude for no reason, Joss was rude for no reason, perhaps it was guilt, beause they knew they messed up but they came out defensive and guess what it pissed us off. And guess what else? We aren't going to shut up about it. You know why? Conviction. When you know deep down you have a point, you follow it.

and as far as that quote ("why lesbians are not sick, deranged lunatics and hetrophobians, but) not being how you feel let me quote you. In his first post tot he kitten RS said:
[quote:cc324960eb][b:cc324960eb][i:cc324960eb]Quote:[/i:cc324960eb][/b:cc324960eb]

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The lesbian going crazy thing might be clich for some people, but looking at it from the outside, that appears to be exactly what the gay activists have been doing over Taras death. Lesbian activist should consider just how much they are hurting themselves in their collective Tara craze.

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[/quote:cc324960eb]

[Epicurus]

[b:2a42a0d57b]Edited to note that I am refering to an article written by a member of this group with a title using this subtle insult. [/b:2a42a0d57b]

You said that it "does not express any statement on my side" but it's intent was "a subtle insult"?!?
Those are two contradicting statements.

Honestly, why don't you just move on?

[RealitySpeaks]

[xita] Crazy is a homonym not only meaning "intensely excited/preoccupied", as was my intended use was. I am not a native speaker but I found out it was a bad choice and I apologized on the board for using the word when I found out it could come across too strong". Why bring it up now?

[mscheckmate]

Crazy lesbians? On "The Kitten," some of the strongest, most eloquent voices raised in protest over Tara's death are those of heterosexual men.

[xita]

hmm you did... remember, that "joke" lunatics.. that's why,

As my gf always says, truer words were never spoken then those spoken in jest.

ok, now really autmn, you are right

[hilarita]

realityspeaks-

what exactly is it that you want us to do? seriously?

i dont understand why you are telling us to be quiet. i really dont. i cant imagine that it matters to you. we are upset, and trying to draw attention to a legitimate issue. telling us not to do either of these things is an exercise in futility. all you are accomplishing is making people even more upset by telling them that they dont have a right to complain, when they do.

i ask you to try to open your mind a little and see where we are coming from. i want you to try to imagine a world where the situation is reversed, and what you would do about it. and then finally i want you to seriously figure out what you are trying to accomplish by coming here. becausing upsetting people who are already upset is just not necessary.