Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[AutumnT]

[quote:4bd437aeec][b:4bd437aeec][i:4bd437aeec]Quote:[/i:4bd437aeec][/b:4bd437aeec]

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But Joss and ME arent the ultimate enemy, yet you are treating them as if theyre worse than all the homophobes put together.

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[/quote:4bd437aeec] OK, after puzzling a little bit I can see that I have confused two posters today with long D names. I'm old, and I'm cranky. These things happen. However I want to address this specific point. I did not mean to put any words in anyone's mouth, but I stand by everything I said today. Especially the part about the kittens forcing Joss to suck lately and the channel changing part because that was a lot of work and some of us got very tired running around every Tuesday night doing it. But back to my point about the above quote.

In a way they are worse. Because they pretended to be our friends. Homophobes that are out there looking like idiots I can see, I know their agenda. Joss was a wolf in sheep's clothing. He lied to gain our trust and then killed it. I'd much rather deal with a person that is honest, even if they are deluded in their beliefs out of ignorance than a liar who claims to be our friend any day.

[xita]

I completely agree that you have been nothing but respectful.

And I understand your point of view, I do. I don't agree, but I understand that you still love the show, most importantly you still have emotional investment in it. Our Tara is dead and so is Willow. We have nothing to lose, so we speak our mind freely, soemthing that even as w/t fans before we did not do. We toed the line so that we could get in the favor of ME, and not lose our girls. I held on to one spoiler in particular for soooooooo long because I feared that ME would be mad if they saw it out and would cut it. I held it so long that the spoiler of Tara's death came and then we had nothing. There is nothing to lose now.

But also put yourself in our shoes and really look at your message, your message is just stop. We are trying every way to get our message out, EVERY way. The last thing I want to do is censor the views of angry kittens. I have asked for the language to get toned down and the personal insults to go away. There is really nothing else to be done. People will hate us, *shrug. I never felt loved anyways, except by kittens.

[DigificWriter]

[b:ba1128e1cb] Sheridan[/b:ba1128e1cb] -
I was trying to answer your question, but it's obvious that you've taken my comments in the wrong context. I'm sorry about that. I was trying to point out what I see as negative ramifications that could possibly result from this whole situation. I came here trying to get a better understanding of your position and give you a better understanding of the fears of myself and others regarding your position and opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

[b:ba1128e1cb] Boston[/b:ba1128e1cb]- One of the reasons behind the two posts I linked to is that to outsiders who come here, the members of this board do, at first glance, appear to be fanatical, crazy, and extremely closed-minded and cultish. Such a perception can be damaging to your position and create unneeded fear and concern, which is precisely what generated the two posts I've mentioned.

[BBOvenGuy]

Something that occurs to me - I see people telling us we shouldn't be so angry in our postings and our emails and our letters, because we're giving ourselves a bad name and blah blah blah. It reminds me of what Wanda wrote to me today, about how she's concerned about all the hate being directed at Joss. It also reminds me of that flap we had with the Spectrum Awards, where that guy claimed people were sending him death threats.

And that leads me to make the following statements, which should have been obvious but apparently aren't:

[b:095d4e96ba] Not every post, letter or email about the death of Tara, the lesbian clich, etc., comes from the Kitten Board.[/b:095d4e96ba] I hardly think we're the only people still upset about this mess. Others could be upset and could be saying so entirely without our knowledge.

[b:095d4e96ba] Not every post, letter or email written by a Kitten Board member carries the Kitten Board Seal of Approval.[/b:095d4e96ba] We encourage respectful and well-reasoned responses, and many of us post our own letters as examples for others, but at the end of the day, what people write in their own private communication is just that - [b:095d4e96ba] private[/b:095d4e96ba]. It doesn't pass through a panel of censors or anything like that.

[b:095d4e96ba] Not every post on the Kitten Board represents the opinion of the Kitten Board.[/b:095d4e96ba] We're a diverse group. We don't all think alike. That's why we have a FAQ, so that everybody has the same set of rules to work from. When the boundaries are overstepped, we have ways of putting things right again. You can't just pick any post at random and assume that it speaks for all of us.

Any disagreements with that?

[Sheridan]

[quote:c4b5789996][b:c4b5789996][i:c4b5789996]Quote:[/i:c4b5789996][/b:c4b5789996]

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don't really care what happens in the future as long as you get your way.

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[/quote:c4b5789996]

Your fear appears to be that you may lose a few episodes, and yes quite honestly I don't think that would be a loss, as far as I can see the show reached its dramatic and emotional climax with 'The Gift'. The fact is that even if by some twist of fate that did happen because of our campaigning then that would be unfortunate but it would not invalidate our campaign. I will reiterate what I've said before: We were [b:c4b5789996] upset[/b:c4b5789996] by Tara's death, we were [b:c4b5789996] infuriated[/b:c4b5789996] by the insensitive handling on ME's part. If Joss and ME suffer problems, well then perhaps [b:c4b5789996] they[/b:c4b5789996] are the ones who should think about what they are saying and doing.

[xita]

The thing is, we don't organize postings to go to other boards. I don't encourage it, in fact I discourage it, I be everyone to be on their best behavior when they go outside the kitty. But I can't control people, people will do what they want and the thing I ask for the most is for them to speak for themselves. Only 2 current things are the official Kitten Position. The FAQ in this thread, and the Kitten Charity Fund. That's it. And to an extent Bob's essays as the revisions are done on the board with feedback from all.

[relativegirl]

[quote:b01964026b][b:b01964026b][i:b01964026b]Quote:[/i:b01964026b][/b:b01964026b]

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In a way they are worse. Because they pretended to be our friends.

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[/quote:b01964026b]
Exactly what Autumn said. It's like the rings of hell in Dante's inferno: the murderers are condemned to the 7th ring, liars and those who give evil counsel are condemned to the 8th ring, and the most hated of all are the betrayers who are condemend to the 9th ring with Brutus, Cassius and Judas Iscariot at the very center with Satan. There's a reason why Dante laid out hell in such a fashion and a reason why it has struck such a chord with readers throughout the centuries. Betrayal stirs deep and passionate responses in the betrayed.

Joss' lies went far beyond trying to protect the secrecy of his plotlines. He lavished himself in the praises of various GLBT organizations and showed up for every photo op, full of reassuring words. As the true facts trickle out and the chronology of his words emerge, the true content of his character becomes undeniable.

[BostonWillowFan]

DigificWriter,

Well, I'm afraid to a point a visitor's perception of Kitten when they visit cannot be helped. People should not be forced to live their lives in their own house as if Martha Stewart is going to peek in the window at any moment.

Here's my take on this. I'll bet that, statistically speaking, very few outsiders visit this board. I've found that Kitten is an [b:18b632a82e] excellent[/b:18b632a82e] forum for airing the issues and discussing solutions. What I do is note the great ideas posted here, draft some thoughtful points based on my own ideas and what I learn here, then go to the more "public" boards and try to start an intelligent debate. This seems to me to be the best compromise. The more public places get a nice jolt of rational arguments and the kittens can be themselves.

Speaking of this topic, I must admit I've been disappointed at the level of intelligent debate on some of the other boards. The Bronze for example, seems to be populated mostly by illiterate frat boys who can't compose a sentence to save their lives (UPN would be so happy!).

If one was to try and visit a board that might actually be willing to listen to other different opinions, can anyone recommend one? Complete with a link if possible.

BostonWillowFan

[DigificWriter]

[b:fc06c4c215] BBOvenGuy[/b:fc06c4c215]-
No, I don't have any objections regarding what you've said. I guess I have been guilty of attributing a lot of the negative aspects of the reaction to Tara's death as having come from the Kitten board, but, as with many other things, that is partly due to the way I've been perceiving this situation, and partly because I didn't really have any understanding of what the gist of this uproar was really intended to accomplish. As I've said, I've been incredibly enlightened by coming here. While I probably don't totally understand the intentions of the gist of the uproar regarding Tara's death, I have a better understanding than I did, which will help me in future discussions regarding this topic and in my dealings with people from this board and others.

[b:fc06c4c215] Sheridan[/b:fc06c4c215]-
I've gone back and edited the portion of my post that you quoted in your reply.

[b:fc06c4c215] Boston[/b:fc06c4c215]-
You're right that a visitor's perception can't really be controlled. I do think I need to qualify what I meant by 'outsider'. I used the term to define any person who is either new to this board or who comes here with no prior knowledge of this whole W/T situation or who has a viewpoint, opinion, or perception of said situation that differs from that of this board. As I've already said, the posts I previously linked to resulted because of negative perceptions regarding this board and its intentions.

[friskylez]

RS, Are you taking Logic 101 or something, is that why you feel the need to come to the kitten board and try your so called "logic" on us? If you are then i would guess you are failing the class..

Thats all i have to say about all the BS thats been said by you since i left for work this morning..Im being civil cause no need to be nasty when someone doesnt have a clue as to what they are talking about..And i was listening to Hells Bells, thats always good for an angry rant and some real attitude

I love the kittens, witty, intelligent, rebellious Im gonna curl up and see who else drops by to get their ass wupped

[Wiccagrrl313]

Good points, Sheridan. As for us not caring about what happens in the future, not true. Our difference in opinions seems to come from our perceptions of what those consequences might be, what we would consider negative, and where our priorities lie.

[xita]

That's very true Tracy. Our negative consequences are, no Tara, Willow bi, Willow with someone else.

[emma peel]

Gee, DigificWriter. You write:
" that to outsiders who come here, the members of this board do, at first glance, appear to be fanatical, crazy, and extremely closed-minded and cultish."

I did go reading another "unnamed board" yesterday. You summed up my reaciton of that board exacttly. Except I didn't butt in and start a big to do with anyone there. I just left and came back here. I didn't mention anything about visiting the other board to anyone here.I did find it very interesting, though, that the very first post, something to the effect "Do you think Buffy shoud be canceled?" was rather inflammatory, brought up the Kitten board by needlessly attacking it ((MO).Also interesting was that that person's post was their very first on that board. I'm always very sceptical of that, when someone just jumps in the first time and starts flaming away.

Janice
Edited for sucky grammar and spelling

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, exactly Xita. And frankly, I for one don't feel part of the larger Buffy fandom at this point. I don't actively want the show to get cancelled early, but would it devestate me? No. Would I even see that as tragically negative? Nope. The worst things that could happen with regards to Buffy, for me, have happened. Joss is clearly not that concerned with whether I am a fan any longer. Do I think we Kittens have anywhere near the power to effect when it goes off the air? Not by a long shot.

Other Buffy boards thinking we're fanatical or hysterical? I don't feel we can control this much, either. Nor should we have to temper what we say here on our own board to make them happy. Going to other boards and being rude isn't a wise idea, and also probably counterproductive. I speak my mind but try to keep in mind the target audience when I go elsewhere. I try to be polite. I try to speak for myself and not the Kitten as a whole, cause that's not my place. Here, I feel very free to speak my mind. And I'm not gonna worry about every single post and word on the off chance that some outsider will come by and misunderstand or use it against us. There are people who are ready to write off anything we say. I can't control that and don't really care to.

[Sheridan]

If the show is cancelled ealry it will be more to do with Joss expending what would have been the logical end of the series at the end of S5. S6 was almost bound to be anti-climatic and it now looks as if the show will end more because SMG wants out than because it reaches a proper conclusion. In fact if the fans want to direct their ire at someone who is really undermining the future of the show might I suggest SMG? She has been making it abundantly clear that she has no interest in Buffy beyond S7 and her non appearance at events has undermined ME's promotional plans. [b:2079ca22cc] Digiwriter[/b:2079ca22cc] part of the reason I am so mad at Joss is that I was sad that the show would probably end after S7, now thanks to S6 I've been robbed of that last year. It's been my favourite show since the first time I saw it. I live in the UK. When Sky dropped it mid way through S2 I campaigned to get it back. I ran a Buffy posting board of my own for nearly two years. Now it's been gutted, I can't even watch the old eps anymore. Joss has taken a group of loyal fans and driven them away, and neither he nor the rest of ME could find it in them to offer one kind word to those fans who were upset by the death of Tara. If there are negative consequences for Joss, well; 'What goes around comes around'.

[Arafel the Witch]

Goddess, I go away for a few hours and a storm hits. Well, to the trolls appearing here, worrying about Buffy being canceled, all I can say is: Buffy doesn't even rate in the top 100 shows of the year, last time I check the Nielsens. Hell, Fox canceled Aly this year, and that show had significantly better ratings than Buffy. Buffy has had, in the past, a devoted fanbase, but I think the reason it survived was because it got good reviews from critics, so it helped a small network's profile. This season, the critics, from what I have seen, have been down on S6 except for OMWF and the finale. If Buffy gets canceled, it will be because the writing has gotten so uneven.

And because Joss has alienated so many fans, there will be less of a howl if the shows get canceled. From what I understand, the Angel fans are furious because it looks like Angel will go evil again this season and one of the characters will die.

Joss and ME have perfect freedom to write what they want to; but the fans have a perfect right not to watch if it doesn't resonate with them.

Here's an example near and dear to my heart. In the mid-1980s, a fantasy/SF writer named Barbara Hambly wrote a wonderful novel called Dragonsbane. It introduced two fantastic characters, Jenny Waynest and her husband Lord John Aversin, the only existing person to have slain a dragon. Jenny is a witch who has a small amount of talent. After bearing John children, she moved out to her own home to study magic, staying married to John but living separately from him and the children. The story involved John and Jenny going to another kingdom to help the king fight a dragon named Morkeleb. The novel was brilliant, funny, and tender, and instantly became a favorite of mine and many others.

So when Hambly announced the sequel, many of us were extremely excited. But the sequel(s) has proved disappointing. Dragonshadow had Jenny, Morkeleb, and many wizards being possessed by demons. Jenny, possessed by a demon, goes on a sexual rampage, even having John watch as she takes an entire army as her lover in one night. The ending leaves things uncertain between them. As opposed to the first one, which was a joy to read, the second proved painful. The third, Knight of the Demon Queen, was a bit more engaging, but only perhaps because I knew there was a fourth, Dragonstar, just released when I picked it up. The third was even more disturbing, and ended with both Jenny and John about to die, and there was, when it was released, no definite plan for a fourth. So Hambly took two of her most beloved characters and beat them down again and again, and most of the fans lost interest. I still read them, but the magic was gone. I haven't started the fourth yet, but I just got it in hardcover, because it says on the jacket that things will be finally explained.

I feel that way about Buffy. Unlike some kittens, I still watch my tapes of the earlier seasons and enjoy them, and I watch the epis of S6 that I like (OMWF, Tabula Rasa, Villains). But the magic isn't quite there anymore. And I will never again watch Seeing Red or Wrecked. Joss still has a chance to recapture that magic. All he has to do is bring back Tara. Death has always been mutable on Buffy, so I don't see that it's too big a deal. And really, how else will Joss know that he blew it if people don't speak up. If Buffy gets canceled, I still have 5 1/2 seasons of epis to watch on DVD and tape. And if Buffy gets canceled, it's because Joss and ME have ceased to hold the audience's interest.

We are dealing with art here, something that hits the heart and the emotions. One person's classic Bordeaux is another's vinegar. But ultimately, especially on something with as short an attention span as TV, art is about connecting with fans. If Joss doesn't do that anymore, the show dies. Everything is in Joss' court. I will watch S7, just to see if the comments from Aly mean Tara will come back. But I don't look forward to it the way I did in the past.

If you are so worried about Buffy getting canceled, you should write Joss and ME and tell them that if they alienate the fans anymore, they are doomed. Then again, if S7 is the last, and comments from some of the actors have made it clear it probably is, Joss and company probably don't care, so they can just kill everyone off and satisfy their bloodlust.

[supermus]

Relativegirl, they brought up that EXACT thing in Angel, in the ep A New World, with Lilah and Wes. I quote:
"Wesley: Descending concentric rings based on the severity of the sin.
Lilah: You know, I always forget, the very bottom of hell, the ninth circle, the devil's frozen in ice, right? He's got three heads, three mouths, and those mouths are reserved for the worst sinners.Now, I can't remember, who is in the center mouth? What was his name? The one person in all of human history deemed the greatest sinner. Who is it?
Wesley: Judas Ascariot.
Lilah: Right. The worst spot in hell is reserved for those who betray."

[tyche]

Can I just yell at you all for a minute?
Under the username morgan, I was a member of the Watchers' Diary posting board for over two years until I left earlier this year. I have been a member of the Kitten board since it was on VoyForums, again for over two years. I love the Kitten board, and I have a sentimental attachment to the Watchers' Diary, because it's where I met my fiance.
Therefore, this entire thing is driving me slowly insane. At the end of the day, it boils down to this: if you dont feel comfortable at a forum or with the opinions expressed there, and if you dont feel you can abide by its rules, then dont go there. If you find the opinions expressed at either the WD or the Kitten board so offensive, then simply dont visit the board in question it really is that simple. If you dont like the fact that Kittens are angry with Joss Whedon, if you dont like the fact that there are people in this world who dont want to kiss the collective arses of Mutant Enemy: well, tough. Deal with it. As a W/T shipper and Tara fan, I have spent 2 and a half years coping perfectly well with the fact that there are people in the world who find my favourite character and relationship disgusting, evil and deviant (to use but three of the kinder words that have been used by some of the people who would rather the Kitten board didnt exist at all.) If I can deal with that fact, you can deal with the lack of Mutant Enemy arse-kissing at the Kitten board.
I respect the fact that xita has always said that the Kitten does not have issues with other posting boards, and has no desire to engage in slanging matches with said boards. I have yet to see any public statement to this effect from Jamie Marie, who is the administrator of the WD, but I await her response with interest.
At the end of the day, I have respect and affection for people on both the Kitten board and the WD. Therefore, I am going to respectfully ask that you refrain from going any further with this pointless and nasty slanging match. If you dont like the way that the Kitten is moderated, you can email xita - xita@xita.org
If you dont like the way the WD is moderated, you can email Jamie Marie, the administrator, at bg@buffyguide.com
(Be polite. Any further abuse between members of these boards is likely to be completely counter-productive.)
The WD is a general Buffy posting board. The Kitten board is a board for W/T shippers. Neither board has ever pretended to be anything different. As I said before, if you aren't happy with the agenda or focus of a board - and this applies to any posting board - then you can simply go elsewhere. I run a Wesley mailing list: I would tell people who want to express how much they hate the character to go elswhere. They're absolutely entitled to their opinion, but it is not appropriate to express it on my list, because it is pro-Wesley. There are plenty of other places online where they can express their opinion, so telling someone to go elsewhere if they are expressing opinions inappropriate for a certain board does not even come close to censorship. (Censorship would be saying that they are not allowed to express said opinion at all, anywhere - and actively preventing them from doing so. As far as I am aware, nobody at the Kitten board has ever prevented anybody from expressing an opinion elswhere on the internet.)
Similarly, people who complain that they aren't allowed to ship anyone other than W/T on the Kitten board are obviously not paying attention to the fact that W/T is its focus. Likewise, anyone who wants to be on a board whose primary focus is, say 'Witchblade' or 'Ally McBeal' would have to go somewhere other than the WD, even though off-topic discussion is allowed on that board.
Both the Kitten board and the WD have been called cliquey by outsiders and newbies, yet both are generally composed of friendly people who welcome new members who are able to abide by the rules. Yes, both boards probably do seem cliquey at first - but then, I don't know of a busy posting board that doesnt.
Both boards are also home to members who express extreme opinions, yet the majority of members do not agree with these opinions. When I was a member of the Watchers Diary, I certainly did not agree with every opinion expressed by its members, nor with every decision made by its moderators. Ditto that for the Kitten board.
Detractors of both boards claim that they are full of people who all have exactly the same opinion and purpose (we've all heard the criticism that the Kitten board is full of evil lesbian fascists; when criticising the WD, Kittens tend to reduce it to a bunch of homophobes.) That's plainly ludicrous, as anyone who is a long-term member of both boards will testify. There are a number of people on the WD who love Tara and W/T; there are many people on the Kitten board who love nothing better than a good debate. The memberships and opinions of both boards are so diverse than generalisation is almost entirely pointless.
So please, lets stop the exaggeration, distortion and quoting out of context. Neither board is perfect. Neither set of members has the moral high ground. Nobody who is a member of both boards should be forced to choose between them. So do everyone a favour and quit it.

[xita]

To add to that, this kind of thing is counterproductive. I don't want to hear about what is going on in other boards anymore. Consider it OFF topic. If you insist on taking the issues from here somewhere else, remember speak as an individual and respect their homes, much like we like ours respected.

To repeat, [b:d13ae3349f] discussions about other boards are now OFF topic[/b:d13ae3349f]

[Zahir al Daoud]

This might be considered tooting my own horn, but really I just wanted to share something of my own creative process and how it relates to these issues.

I'm a member of an online group who're creating our space opera universe. We're going to role-play in it, do art for it, write stories for it, etc.

Anyway one of my creations is a matriarchal star empire whose dominant religion is Goddess Worship. There was a notion of a character I was pursuing, an expatriate from this empire (the reasons have to do with personal issues) who fit rather neatly into another member's idea for a world and a story to take place on it.

So I'm designing this character. One of the big points of this story is that she dies heroically (with cryonics she might come back--we haven't decided yet). Now given that fact I found myself utterly rejecting one particular option--she's not going to be lesbian. Mind you, I've established that homosexuality in her homeland is no big thing at all. And I am genuinely interested in exploring the idea of a kind of "sisterhood of the sword" in this background. But I [i:b774c7737f][b:b774c7737f]know from the get-go[/b:b774c7737f][/i:b774c7737f] this character will die. Without this discussion, I might have made her gay. Maybe. I like to think I would have changed my mind later, but we'll never know. Right now I made the very deliberate decision that she is straight (which lets me explore another idea--that of her boyfriend being under her in rank and how that dynamic works).

Am I practicing self-censorship. No! I'm making creative decisions, among them to avoid cliches and stereotypes. Recent events have heightened my awareness--hardly a bad thing--so now I'm more aware of a cliche. Hence I will avoid it (along with fatherless black families, terrorist Arabs, etc.)

This is what these debates lare for. In my own small case they've achieved an important objective--raising awareness. Nor can I believe myself unique in this. For that I offer my thanks to all the Kittens, and this drop of proof [i:b774c7737f][b:b774c7737f]your words are having an effect[/b:b774c7737f][/i:b774c7737f].

[bowieinberlin]

Hopefully this should be short and sweet:

I'm a relative newbie to the Kitten. I've been to other boards. This one isn't all hell-bent on immaturity and stupid crap. I was welcomed wholeheartedly here. My opinions differ from many outspoken Kittens. But no one here cut off any of my limbs because I have a differing opinion. (See, 2 arms, 2 legs, weeee!)

It's not easy to join a new online community. It takes time, and just like anywhere else online or beyond, everyone has their own distinct personality.

If you can't dig it, get over yourself and move on because, personally, I love the differing viewpoints and debate. It tends to flourish here, as opposed to being quashed.

[Unregistered(d)]

(Xita, I posted this in "we want Tara back", but I was no sure if it was correct to post it there or here.)


Link: www.gaytoday.com/entertain/072902en.asp

Here's an interessant article:


[quote:4139c508ed][b:4139c508ed][i:4139c508ed]Quote:[/i:4139c508ed][/b:4139c508ed]

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[b:4139c508ed] A Heinous Clich Raises Its Ugly Head[/b:4139c508ed]



Sometimes it seems like whenever we begin to relax and feel confident that the mainstream media are finally portraying gay people fairly and accurately, an incident slaps us back into reality.

A case in point is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The youth-oriented series broke new creative ground six years ago by introducing a world populated by demons, vampires, witches and one super-powered young woman in the title role.

Those of us who applaud a larger gay presence in the various forms of media were even more impressed when, some three years ago, Buffy's best friend gradually emerged as a lesbian.

Our appreciation for the UPN program grew stronger still when Willow and her girlfriend Tara's relationship evolved as one that was neither sensationalized nor sanitized. Indeed, their romance was treated with a level of sensitivity and reality that was virtually unparalleled in network TV. Unlike the boys of Will & Grace and Dawson's Creek, these girls held hands and stroked each other's hair and occasionally exchanged a gentle kiss-a gay couple showing affection . . . imagine!


And then came the slap.

First, an unconscionably evil nerd who meant to murder Buffy shot and killed Tara instead. Willow, propelled by blood-red rage and vengeance, then tortured and killed the nerd before moving on to a demonic plot to destroy the entire world. So much for sensitivity.

I know that those of us in academia can be criticized, and often rightly so, for indulging in too much analysis. But it doesn't take a PhD in critical studies to recognize these recent plot turns as fitting into what I will label the "dead/evil lesbian clich."

According to this heinous formula, no lesbian-and certainly no lesbian couple-can ever find true happiness but ultimately will suffer a tragic end.

Perhaps the most high-profile example of this demeaning clich is the 1992 film Basic Instinct, in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her crazy and insanely jealous girlfriend ends up dead.

I could cite a dozen other examples. One of the earliest came in the 1962 film The Children's Hour, in which the Shirley MacLaine character confesses her love for the Audrey Hepburn character-and then hangs herself.

One of the most recent versions of this tired Hollywood plotline came just last year in Mulholland Drive, which ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered and then turning a gun on herself.


The recent Buffy segments followed a disturbingly similar course. Not only did they come complete with the two-for-one lesbian clich package of one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian, but the setting and events leading up to Tara's death also fell into line with the storied lesbian clich.

One of the most overused features of the concept has been that the death is generally directly connected with the act of lesbian sex, usually occurring soon after a couple has made love. Tara died at the end of an episode that included her and Willow having sex-indeed, she took her last breath beside the very bed in which the two young women had slept together only minutes before.

Likewise, consistent with many past examples, Tara's death was a horribly violent one. A bullet ripped through her chest, showering Willow with her lover's blood.

For me, though, what is the most distressing about the recent Buffy example of the "dead/evil lesbian clich" is that I really thought the program was committed to providing an accurate depiction of lesbian characters that young people could identify with.

So did others. Back in 2000, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation commended the program. GLAAD even went so far as to urge viewers to contact Joss Whedon, the producer behind the storyline, and thank him.

The aspect of the Willow and Tara characters during the last couple years that I particularly liked was that they were neither idealized nor irreconcilably flawed. When Tara was introduced, she was painfully shy, inarticulate, self-conscious and no Jennifer Aniston in the looks department-just like real-life teenagers. Willow had her faults, too; her dependence on magic became such a problem, in fact, that it drove Tara to break up with her.

And so, likewise, the young women's relationship was less than perfect. After Tara moved out of the home that she and Willow had shared, both characters struggled to regain their emotional balance. Only after several months had passed and Willow had confronted her addiction-in this instance, magic, but it could just as easily have been drugs or alcohol-did the two characters arrange a coffee date and then a reconciliation.

The message: Gay life-like life in general-is not always easy. But, with perseverance and commitment to growth, gay life-again, like life in general-most certainly can be rich and fulfilling.

As a college professor who sees dozens of young people struggling with their sexual identity every year, I was very pleased that I could finally recommend Buffy as a television program that provided a picture of young gay life that was both realistic and positive.

I no longer can.

---

[/quote:4139c508ed]

[AutumnT]

And if someone wants to read the original try the first page ...

[feena191]

The 1st article is pretty much lifted as is, the quotes from the [b:e7c8a6ff6f] FAQ[/b:e7c8a6ff6f] are re-arranged slightly to match it.

[quote:e7c8a6ff6f][b:e7c8a6ff6f][i:e7c8a6ff6f]Quote:[/i:e7c8a6ff6f][/b:e7c8a6ff6f]

---

[b:e7c8a6ff6f] R Streitmatter Article[/b:e7c8a6ff6f]

I know that those of us in academia can be criticized, and often rightly so, for indulging in too much analysis. But it doesn't take a PhD in critical studies to recognize these recent plot turns as fitting into what I will label the "dead/evil lesbian clich."

According to this heinous formula, no lesbian-and certainly no lesbian couple-can ever find true happiness but ultimately will suffer a tragic end.

Perhaps the most high-profile example of this demeaning clich is the 1992 film Basic Instinct, in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her crazy and insanely jealous girlfriend ends up dead.

I could cite a dozen other examples. One of the earliest came in the 1962 film The Children's Hour, in which the Shirley MacLaine character confesses her love for the Audrey Hepburn character-and then hangs herself.

One of the most recent versions of this tired Hollywood plotline came just last year in Mulholland Drive, which ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered and then turning a gun on herself.

The recent Buffy segments followed a disturbingly similar course. Not only did they come complete with the two-for-one lesbian clich package of one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian, but the setting and events leading up to Tara's death also fell into line with the storied lesbian clich.

One of the most overused features of the concept has been that the death is generally directly connected with the act of lesbian sex, usually occurring soon after a couple has made love. Tara died at the end of an episode that included her and Willow having sex-indeed, she took her last breath beside the very bed in which the two young women had slept together only minutes before.

Likewise, consistent with many past examples, Tara's death was a horribly violent one. A bullet ripped through her chest, showering Willow with her lover's blood.

---

[/quote:e7c8a6ff6f]

[quote:e7c8a6ff6f][b:e7c8a6ff6f][i:e7c8a6ff6f]Quote:[/i:e7c8a6ff6f][/b:e7c8a6ff6f]

---

[b:e7c8a6ff6f] FAQ[/b:e7c8a6ff6f]

[i:e7c8a6ff6f] 2) What specifically is the "Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich"?[/i:e7c8a6ff6f]

That all lesbians and, specifically lesbian couples, can never find happiness and always meet tragic ends. One of the most repeated scenarios is that one lesbian dies horribly and her lover goes crazy, killing others or herself.

One of the most notorious recent examples is Basic Instinct (1992), in which Sharon Stone's character is a murderer and her girlfriend is crazy, jealous and ends up dead.

A classic film example of this is 1961's The Children's Hour starring Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine. MacLaine's character hangs herself after she confesses her love for Hepburn.

Mulholland Drive (2001) ends with a lesbian having her ex-girlfriend murdered then turning a gun on herself.

Worse, her death causes Willow to go crazy with grief and go on an evil rampage that includes sadistic torture, mutilation and murder, followed by an attempt to destroy the world. It's a two-for-one lesbian clich package, complete with one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian.

The setting and events leading to Tara's death also fall horribly into the storied lesbian clich. One of the most overused features of the lesbian clich is that the death is generally directly associated with the act of lesbian sex. It usually occurs soon after a real or implied sex scene in order to cement the connection. Tara died at the end of an episode in which she spent practically the entire time having sex with Willow; further, she died immediately after a scene of heavy sexual flirtation and beside the bed in which she and Willow made love.

Well, for starters, Tara meets a typically violent end as a bullet rips through her chest and showers Willow with her blood.

---

[/quote:e7c8a6ff6f]


There are probably other examples, these are just the most obvious..it [i:e7c8a6ff6f] does[/i:e7c8a6ff6f] seem a little familiar.... I can understand a few phrases maybe being similar if someone's done background reading & the [b:e7c8a6ff6f] FAQ[/b:e7c8a6ff6f] is one of the articles - but this is pretty blatant

[helpful information perha]

The media response to Buffy's handling of W/T is continuing to grow !!

I've tried to update the running list of coverage to date
please tell me if I've left something off


From the Papers

OK so starting with two pieces that shouldn't be lost even if the links are now in the papers archieves

Boston Herald
www.bostonherald.com/
Television; The Friday Rant
Boston Herald; Boston, Mass.; May 10, 2002; MARK PERIGARD;

Strip UPN's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" of good writing, clever dialogue, frightening menaces and believable characters and you are stuck with this season. This week's episode was especially depressing, capped by the murder of Tara (AMBER BENSON) in the closing moment, another cruel twist in a cold season. Over on FX, where the good seasons of "Buffy" are repeated, the show's writers brag during commercial breaks about how no character is safe on the show.

But examine that body count for a moment. The most significant character deaths - Jenny, Calendar, Joyce Summers and now Tara - are all women. The show's two gay characters, Tara and high school jock Larry, both slain (ALYSON HANNIGAN's Willow does not count.

Creator JOSS WHEDON told the Herald last year that she is at best bisexual) The show's black characters? Kendra, Mr Trick and oh yeah, that guidance counselor who hung around for half an episode - all dead. We knew that Buffy lived on a hellmouth. Who knew she lived in Klan country?
____
San Francisco Chronicle
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar...241518.DTL
by Tim Goodman
San Francisco Chronicle TV critic
tgoodman@sfchronicle.com

Sorry for the delayed rant -- it gets awfully busy during finale time -- here's hoping another favorite series, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," gets a lot better in a hurry next year. If the writers need to work out personal issues, let us know in advance so we can watch "Gilmore Girls" instead. Finale: subpar.
___

Miami Herald
Cracking the closet door
www.miami.com/mld/miamihe...623355.htm
___

Sacramento News and Reviews
Witch Love Spells Death
www.newsreview.com/issues...6/Arts.asp
Letters
www.newsreview.com/issues...etters.asp
___

Is there life after death on 'Buffy'?
The Birmingham News
www.al.com/entertainment/...198910.xml

____

Mags & websites on line

and what follows is a summation of articles in this thread, with associated letters sections if they have them (thanks webwarlock!)

The Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich FAQ
pub106.ezboard.com/ftheki...=434.topic
also
www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...cliche.php

The Dead, the Evil, and the Insane
www.quiknet.com/~lcountry/cliche2.html

Oasis Mag.
Rest in Peace
thebunnyslayer.oasismag.c...yReader$42

Pop Matters Mag
Three articles from Pop matters, two pro-Tara, one pro-Whedon.
www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer2.shtml
www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer3.shtml
www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer4.shtml

Salon
Letters at Salon.com
www.salon.com/ent/letters...dex.html?x

Xtreme Gaming
The Message Is - "Pay Attention to the Message"
www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...ssage.html

It's Not Homophobia, But That Doesn't Make It Right
www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...hobia.html

"I Know Why Willow Weeps"
www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...llary.html
home.attbi.com/~brannantim/hillary.html

Sci fi Dimensions
Lesbians, Where Art Thou?
www.scifidimensions.com/J...rtthou.htm
Letters: there were so many the mag had to give them a full page of their own!
www.scifidimensions.com/A...sbians.htm

Sci fi Wire
Taras Death Riles Buffy Fans, SciFi.com
www.scifi.com/scifiwire/a....30.fandom
Letters: www.scifi.com/sfw/issue268/letters.html
www.scifi.com/sfw/issue269/letters.html
www.scifi.com/sfw/issue270/letters.html
www.scifi.com/sfw/issue271/letters.html
www.scifi.com/sfw/issue274/letters.html

Letters from Camp Rehobeth
Student CAMP: Heterosexuality Wins
www.camprehoboth.com/issu...ntcamp.htm


Sex, Lies & btw.: Don't Buy Their Video Tapes!
www.puk.de/ivanova/toaster_neub.html
(Very interesting because it compares quotes from ME writers over the last year.)


The Death of Tara Exposes Willow's Darkside and Fans Outrage
tampabaycoalition.homeste...traged.htm
Letters: tampabaycoalition.homeste...Letter.htm

The Reign of Tara
Wanda talks with Joss Whedon on fan outrage.
www.eonline.com/Gossip/Wa...0726c.html

Cinescape
A Cinescape Poll on what people thought of Season 6.
www.cinescape.com/0/poll....Television

Lesbian Nation
Buffy finale, Finally!
www.lesbianation.com/arti...4&id=10414
and
Lesbian Media Blender
07.16.02 By Tammy Fo
www.lesbianation.com/arti...4&id=10740

Ink19
The Death of Tara and "The Dead/Evil Lesbian Clich"
www.ink19.com/issues/july...otThe.html

Media Matters
A Heinous Clich Raises Its Ugly Head
By Rodger Streitmatter
www.gaytoday.com/entertain/072902en.asp

From Curve
Disappointed in Buffy

I know that your publication has supported Willow and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I hope you plan to voice your disappointment about the recent lesbian clich storyline on Buffy (Seeing Red, season 6, episode 19).

In the past, Joss Whedon and his writers promised not to invoke the lesbian clich on Buffy because they were aware of how often lesbians in the media are sentenced to death, evilness, or neverending heartbreakYet, in an attempt to boost ratings during May sweeps, the two lesbian stars suffered just that fate. Tara was senselessly killed in front of her lover (after many hours of sex together) and Willow became evil.

Buffy has had four gay characters Larry, Andrew, Willow, and Tara. Two are dead and two became evil. So much for fighting the clich

Many of the shows fans are boycotting Buffy based on the Seeing Red episode and are also boycotting Buffy merchandise.

I urge you to publicize the gay communitys reaction concerning the shows recent developments and the devastating impact they are having on a community that was told it was safe to believe.

Send letters to letters@curvemag.com


From The Advocate August 20
Lesbian Sex = Death
By Andy Mangels
In more than five years on TV, Buffy the Vampire Slayer has endured more than a few bloody scrapes. Even as the series dealt with changing networks and Emmy snubs, the characters in Sunnydale faced death every night. In a series in which the lead character has died and returned twice, perhaps the biggest stake in the heart came in May's controversial finale to the sixth season.

In it powerful witch Willow and her female lover , Tara, who was often the show's most responsible and mature character, got to have glorious, sweaty lesbian sex on camera. And then, moments later, Tara (Amber Benson) was killed by a stray bullet to the heart, launching Willow (Alyson Hannigan) on a descent into black magic vengeance that not only turned her into a killer but imperiled her friends, her sanity, and eventually the world itself. The resulting public backlash against the series's events has ignited newspaper columns and Internet Web sites.

But to what end ? According to many fans the season finale reversed anything good that was accomplished by this all too-rare TV lesbian relationship. FanE.M. Colson notes that "whether viewers are conscious of the juxtaposition or not, murdering a lesbian just minutes after she has sex suggests a causality between lesbian sex and death."
Buffy creator Joss Wheden notes that he grew up with a gay godfather and that his mother provided "a liberal upbringing". Marti Noxon, Buffy's executive producer , was raised by two mothers. Both Wheden and Noxon wanted to do a Willow-Tara relationship 'that felt respectful and fully fleshed out" says Noxon.

Willow's character didn't start out gay, but two season's ago she fell in love with Tara. According to Amy Wilson, coauthor of the online "The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow, and the Dead - Evil Lesbian Cliche FAQ", the show was successful in its lesbian portrayal: "Up until the finale of season six [Willow and Tara] were treated with remarkable sensitivity and realism, even if their onscreen sex life was mostly nonexistent. Because Willow was an established, beloved character before she came out, the Willow-Tara story line forced many Buffy viewers to confront their homophobic attitude whether latent or overt".

Wilson complains that "Joss Wheden and [his] staff writers gained trust [about Tara's future on the show] under false pretenses, then leveled viewers with a bloody, cliched story line". And then there's the question of whether Willow's turning to the dark side in her rage equates to the "murderous lesbian" stereotype fostered by such films as Basic Instinct and TV shows like Law and Order and Quantum Leap.

Producer Noxon says, "We never thought about the fact that these characters were gay when we were deciding what their fate was going to be. They've been happy and together for longer than almost any couple on our show. In some ways I think it is kind of insulting to the gay community to suggest that we can't do to the gay characters on the show what we would do to anybody else". As for the sex scene, both agree that it was some time in coming, and Wheden adds, "We also felt a little bit that this is the last chance we're going to have to do this - and let's push that envelope a little bit".
So what was Wheden's reason for killing Tara? "I killed her because I wanted to explore the dark side of Willow, and I needed to justify that," he says. "It may be fine on another show for people to break up but we're dealing with heavier, more iconic, scarier storybook stuff. The downside of that is, when you kill a character like Tara, statistically speaking, [lesbians] are underrepresented and so people have a legitimate reason to say 'It's not the same' ".

Noxon says the negative reaction has "been hard. It's the first time that we've gotten public outcry where I really can't even read some of the letter, they hurt so much. It's very indicative of how underrepresented gay people feel in the culture. Because the kinds of letters we've gotten have been so emotional and so personal and so deeply felt, you realize that every single instance of a positive portrayal of gay love on television means so much to people".

Noxon and Wheden are adamant that Willow won't suddenly turn bisexual. "Marti and I have had a discussion where we're like, 'We do that now, and we will be burned alive'. And possibly justifiably," says Wheden. "We can't have Willow say, 'Oh, cured now, I can go back to cock!' Willow is not going to be straddling that particular fence. She will just be gay."

Noxon's lesbian mothers were "bummed out that this relationship was over" but "have been calling pretty frequently , asking if Tara's coming back, magically." The answer to that question, for a show whose very title includes undead characters in it, is nebulous. "Tara will not be back, but [actor] Amber Benson will [assuming she's available],' says Wheden. "Everybody works on my show way more after they die".
Send letters to:
letters@advocate.com
or
Letters To the Editor
The Advocate
PO Box 4371
Los Angeles, CA
90078
or
FAX (323) 467-6805

AfterEllen.com
www.afterellen.com/TV/buffy.html
Quote:

Maybe in all this slaying, "Buffy" has forgotten that when a television show starts being careless with its viewers attachments and emotions, it starts to lose them. That would be a shame, since lesbian/bisexual fans have been some of the show's biggest supporters.

This isn't exactly your average show. People die every week on "Buffy." It's just that usually they're vampires or demons, not lesbians (even though some people on the Far Right get us confused occasionally).

After killing Tara, they're going to have to try harder to keep my loyalty next season. Bringing her back would be a start, but if that can't happen then at least give Willow (and the fans) another shot at a happy lesbian relationship.

____

Several major sci fi mags (though not on line) have covered the W/T debacle and these are transcribed within this thread
___

Tara Support sites.
www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...eason7.php
hometown.aol.com/zenobiax...ttons.html
www.savedarkangel.org/ Look at the bottom of their page!

______

Major Mag Boards etc to give feedback at

TV gal board
tvbb.zap2it.com/cgi-bin/f...&SUBMIT=Go

Diva
www.divadirect.co.uk/diva/

Entertainment Weekly Feedback board
www.ew.com/ew/article/lat...73,00.html

Curve Mag Feedback Board
www.curvemag.com/speak/sh...genumber=1

Firefly website
www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=9&t=338

Lesb. Nation has a forum for feedback

new.lesbianation.com/my_l...m?forum=58

Advocate (see above)

xpose@visimag.com
FAX +1 (818) 980-6061 US
FAX +44 (0)20 8875 1588 UK

DAWN TARNOFSKY-OSTROFF
PRESIDENT, UPN
11800 WILSHIRE BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90025

Call UPN.
(310) 575-7000. Ask to leave a message on the "Viewer Hotline".

Feedback@UPN.com
Feedback@FOX.com
Remember to put Buffy in the subject line

Website set up with links to write letters for W/T
www.quiknet.com/~lcountry/tarawill.html


edited with help from friskylez and Webwarlock!

[Sheridan]

Wow [b:29422965c3] HIP[/b:29422965c3] thats one heck of a collection, the three of you deserve a lot of credit for the effort. Are you going to send this along to ME?

[Scout]

Hip, that's one mother of a post! Thanks so much to all of you for taking the time to put it up with the links. It's quite impressive when you look at it as a whole. Thanks again!

[Tulipp]

Thank you so much, Helpful Info, for the...helpful info. It is a serious list on a serious topic, and it makes me really sad to see it because it reminds me all over again, but really heartened that there are so many people who care so much. And so many people who understand that it isn't just television and it isn't just characters. It's so, so much more. Thank you.

[Arafel the Witch]

Here is a good article on why Tara didn't have to die. I got it off the Bronze board. I don't know why I even bother going there anymore. The IQ factor is far lower and the bigotry/ignorance factor far higher. (Sigh).

www.scoopme.com/tv/articl...e_id=67668

[Ben Varkentine]

I emailed Steven Capsuto, author of "Alternate Channels," a (highly recommended) book that does for TV what The Celluloid Closet did for film, to ask his thoughts on Buffy, Tara and etc.

He sent me this reply, which I quote with his permission:

> I suspect the writers
> knew how important she was and therefore kept her around far longer
> than they would have if the character had been Willow's boyfriend.
> Certainly, this was the most naturalistic, casual ongoing portrayal
> of a stable, same-sex couple that American commercial TV has ever
> seen.

For several years, it was everything gay media activists have
> said they wanted. But if we're going to insist on characters who
> "just happen to be gay," we need to be ready for that to cut both
> ways. On Buffy, the regulars boyfriends and girlfriends tend to die
> (e.g., Jenny Kalendar), leave town (Oz, Riley, etc.) or both (Angel)
> after a year or two.

> Instead of thanking Mr. Whedon and company for an unprecedented
> breakthrough, people are giving them a hard time.

I think our
> displeasure should be focused instead on producers who have done
> nothing in terms of gay inclusiveness, or cliche peddlers like the
> hacks at NYPD Blue.

> The difference is that there have been so many nonevil, nondead
> lesbian roles on TV over the past eight years or so that I'm not sure
> the stereotype still exists.

I don't agree with everything Steven has to say above--I sent him links to the Ink 19 piece and the FAQ--but I thought it was thought-provoking enough to be worth sharing.

Bear in mind this is not some ME blind Spike "shipper," this is an educated, informed gay man who has made a study of lesbian and gay images in TV. I don't think we should dismiss what he has to say without thought.