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New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

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New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby emma peel » Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:28 pm

Hmmmm. Too bad someone can't point out to Slayage how many interesting and diverse articles they are choosing to ignore. One might think they only want to feature only articles that they agree with. Nope, that couldn't be it, could it? Nah.:grin
Janice
emma peel
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:42 pm

That's okay, Tim. We have other methods. >:

The final version is on its way. Let us know when it's up!
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby helpful information perha » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:05 pm

if slayage isn't willing then
perhaps its time we just started posting the links to these 'ignored' essays to the other buffy boards ourselves

anyone registered with the UPN buffy site and willing to post them there?

what are the other major boards?
helpful information perha
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby kpmuse » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:26 pm

Do you think we should post the entire article with the links or just the links? Posting the entire article will make it much more visible, but they are long. I have seen really long posts out there, but what do you think?
kpmuse
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:31 pm

Once I get the URL from Tim, I'm going to put together a little post for people to copy and paste on any other boards they feel like visiting. It'll contain my alternate S6 summary, with a link to the entire essay at the bottom.

I've already got the links to the other ignored articles at the bottom of the full essay.

>: >: >:
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby Ben Varkentine » Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:49 pm

" if slayage isn't willing then
perhaps its time we just started posting the links to these 'ignored' essays to the other buffy boards ourselves

anyone registered with the UPN buffy site and willing to post them there?

what are the other major boards? "

Well, if we post them on the BuffyGuide site I'd say we're guaranteed *tons* of fun...
Ben Varkentine
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby emma peel » Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:12 pm

Oohh, Ben you are soo baaaad!!! :lol
Janice
emma peel
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby Ben Varkentine » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:42 pm

You know it, you know. And the whole world has to answer...
Ben Varkentine
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby xita » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:05 pm

who's bad?
xita
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby SJ » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:32 pm

I'm registered with the buffyupn site.
Good essay Bob.
SJ
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby tyche » Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:18 pm

[quote:62afb72959][b:62afb72959][i:62afb72959]Quote:[/i:62afb72959][/b:62afb72959]
A Heinous Clich Raises Its Ugly Head
By Rodger Streitmatter
Media Matters
www.gaytoday.com/entertain/072902en.asp
[/quote:62afb72959]

They [b:62afb72959] did[/b:62afb72959] link to that article - it was either earlier this month or last month. I know, b/c I remember seeing it on their list, and I have a photographic memory...
tyche
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby DianaBouvier99 » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:01 am

Good essay; well written and to the point.

I was just wondering why you are answering that one on the Slayer News? It was so poorly written...I mean she claims you're calling Whedon a homophobe when the name of your essay rebutes that? And it just gets worse from there.... I thought she did us a favor by writing that essay.

I guess I don't understand why waste your time on her?

You have a book to rewrite and get out to the publisher and, it is my personal opinion, that your creative/professional writing is going to do more good right now than your essays.

Actually, I think the combined creative energy and power of everyone on this forum could change the world...just my opinion.
DianaBouvier99
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby friskylez » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:33 am

DianeBouvier99, I agree 100 percent, this is a group of compassionate, intelligent, powerful kittens..The efforts regarding the letter writing campaign, the wonderful essays by Bob and others and the charity drive, prove the point..
People can make themselves heard and can make a difference..If the message gets across to just one person, that is one person more who understands :clap :clap :clap
friskylez
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby emma peel » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:47 am

"Our" Ben is so bad, of course! I say that because I am aware of some of his activities away from this board.:wink
Actually,"Our" Ben is so bad in such a very good way. :clap JMHO.
Janice
emma peel
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby Ben Varkentine » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:38 am

Thanks, Janice.
Ben Varkentine
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:31 am

[quote:6b6735c0b6][b:6b6735c0b6][i:6b6735c0b6]Quote:[/i:6b6735c0b6][/b:6b6735c0b6]
Originally posted by DianaBouvier99:
[b:6b6735c0b6] I was just wondering why you are answering that one on the Slayer News? It was so poorly written...I mean she claims you're calling Whedon a homophobe when the name of your essay rebutes that? And it just gets worse from there.... I thought she did us a favor by writing that essay.

I guess I don't understand why waste your time on her?[/b:6b6735c0b6]
[/quote:6b6735c0b6]

Good question. I [b:6b6735c0b6] was[/b:6b6735c0b6] ignoring it, actually - but then Slayage posted a link to it after they snubbed my third essay and several others that were critical of the Tara death story, and that made me cranky.

This essay has come together much faster than the first three, so I haven't really spent too much time on it, and it has the alternate S6 storyline, which is a card I've been waiting for the right time to play for a couple of months now. So it was worth the effort. And I think I'm done now that I'm done with it. It's given me some closure.
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby Jonathan Dupont » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:20 pm

[quote:cf7be8ae28][b:cf7be8ae28][i:cf7be8ae28]Quote:[/i:cf7be8ae28][/b:cf7be8ae28]
I mean she claims you're calling Whedon a homophobe when the name of your essay rebutes that?
[/quote:cf7be8ae28]

I don't think you quite understood her point.

What she is saying that people could interpret that out of the articles, even if that wasn't the author's intent, and then draws the parallel to the situation on Buffy.
Jonathan Dupont
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby Sheridan » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:29 pm

[quote:5fc82e0d79][b:5fc82e0d79][i:5fc82e0d79]Quote:[/i:5fc82e0d79][/b:5fc82e0d79]
What she is saying that people could interpret that out of the articles
[/quote:5fc82e0d79]

Which is part of the problem because having actually read [b:5fc82e0d79] Bob's[/b:5fc82e0d79] essays you can't [i:5fc82e0d79] fairly[/i:5fc82e0d79] make that interpretation. This 'Ang' seesm to want to claim the articles are saying ME are homphobic to avoid dealing with the substantive issues raised in them. In fact this seems to be a common tactic amongst those who disagree with the Kitten viewpoint, simply denounce us as 'whining lesbians' rather than engage in a real discussion.
Sheridan
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:38 pm

[quote:c1c864d193][b:c1c864d193][i:c1c864d193]Quote:[/i:c1c864d193][/b:c1c864d193]
Originally posted by Jonathan Dupont:
[b:c1c864d193] What she is saying that people could interpret that out of the articles, even if that wasn't the author's intent, and then draws the parallel to the situation on Buffy.[/b:c1c864d193]
[/quote:c1c864d193]

Ah, but as I said, you could only interpret that out of the articles if you deliberately ignore what's printed on the page.

Yes, if you go in expecting me to accuse Joss of homophobia and read the article with that mindset, so that you screen out every instance where I say otherwise, you can come out with that conclusion. But you will have gotten that conclusion from your own mind, not from me, so don't go pointing fingers at me.
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby WebWarlock » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:35 pm

Just so you all have it.

Bob's latest and greatest is now here.
www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/clothes.html

Cry havoc.

Warlock
WebWarlock
 


New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:47 pm

Okay, folks... let's do a little pre-emptive work in the face of a likely snub by Slayage.

Here's the "teaser," with HTML codes already in place so you can copy and post to posting boards around the web. I guess you'll have to do a bit of conversion to get the UBB code equivalent, but at least this is a start:




<b>Season 6, as it might have been...</b>

Before the seventh season of <u>Buffy</u> descends on us, Id like to take one more look at the sixth. Specifically, Id like to look at the death of Tara in Seeing Red and Willows subsequent change into her Dark Magic persona. Weve heard repeatedly from people at Mutant Enemy that the needs of the story required things to happen this way. To do it any other way would have put large inconsistencies into the story.

But theres a problem here. The way Season 6 unfolded, there was <i>already</i> an inconsistency that had been introduced into the story, namely Willow's reasons for using magic and the effect magic had on her. Before "Wrecked," magic was never depicted as a metaphor for addictive drugs. Willow was never shown going to a magical crack house or performing spells for the sole purpose of feeling high. Even people who were not fans of Willow or of the Willow/Tara relationship noticed it. Many spent the better part of last winter complaining about it. It didnt feel right, and a lot of <u>Buffy</u> fans knew it.

Before Wrecked, magic was a challenge that gave her a feeling of accomplishment. It allowed her to become a vital part of Buffy's fight against evil. And eventually it became a crutch that she used to shortcut her way through the rough patches of life. What if Joss had kept that initial depiction? What would Season 6 have looked like then? Heres my take on what we might have seen:

For about the first third of the season, things wouldn't have been all that different. Perhaps, though, we might have seen the beginnings of some friction between Buffy and Willow. After all, Willow had been in charge of the Scooby Gang for months, and there was Buffy moping around instead of taking the leadership role back. Perhaps Willow would have tried to step in - just to help until Buffy was back on her feet, of course. Perhaps she would have used magic to make up for the fact that she didn't have Slayer strength. The forget-spell on Tara would still have occurred. Tara would still have left in "Tabula Rasa."

Around the time of "Smashed" or "Wrecked," instead of seeing Willow turn into a crackhead, we might have seen the friction between her and Buffy become more open and deliberate. Instead of trying to help Buffy, perhaps Willow might have begun to feel like she could replace Buffy. Perhaps Willow might have seen the attempts to reduce her magic use as a threat, an attempt to remove her from being in charge. Perhaps she wouldn't have wanted to give up being in charge, because perhaps she felt like her magical methods really were the best way to go about fighting evil.

Around the time of the February sweeps, the strained relationships between Willow and the other Scoobies could have reached a breaking point. Perhaps a crisis would have come up - possibly involving the three nerds - in which Willow thought the only solution required her to delve even deeper into dark magic. Perhaps Buffy would have objected, and Willow would have angrily done it anyway. And in that moment, perhaps something would have happened to bring about Dark Magic Willow.

Think about it. Dark Magic Willow appearing during the February sweeps. Not with a mere three episodes remaining in the season, but with roughly one-third of the season still to go, with agonizingly long stretches of reruns before the conclusion. That's how long Angel got to be evil in Season 2, after all. Think of what Dark Magic Willow could have done with all that time. Perhaps she would have killed all the nerds, or taken them over and made them her henchmen. Imagine the irony of having Warren the misogynist bowing down to her instead of being flayed alive by her. He could still have died eventually - a victim of his own resentment over being controlled by a woman - but it wouldn't have been necessary. Perhaps Willow would have kept Amy around as well. Perhaps Willow would have made little "adjustments" to her, changing her hair color or her personality to resemble Tara, the lover she had lost and still missed. Imagine what Alyson Hannigan could have done with a part like that.

Meanwhile, Buffy would have been faced with the task of figuring out what to do. Fight Willow? Join her? Bring her back? Instead of moping around until some miraculous unmotivated revelation in the last five minutes of the finale, she would have been forced to come out of her depression in order to meet the challenge. And what about Spike? Buffy could still have been sleeping with him - perhaps his attempts to have her join him as a "creature of the dark" would have prompted him to argue with her about what she should do, or even about whether or not Dark Magic Willow was right. Buffy and Spike could have had a relationship that was about more than the alternating cycles of violent sex and sexy violence that we ended up seeing.

And Tara? Sooner or later, Buffy would have needed a magic expert to counter Willow's powers. The fact that Tara wasn't as powerful would have added suspense and drama to the story. The fact that Dark Magic Willow might have turned on Tara would have added even more suspense and drama. But none of that would have required Tara to die. In fact, Tara's presence when Dark Magic Willow was ultimately defeated could have been the thing that began Willow's healing process, and her eventual return to the Scooby Gang.

And there you have it - a way to achieve Dark Magic Willow and give Joss the cool Dark Phoenix imitation he so dearly wanted without killing Tara. Something Mutant Enemy insists couldnt have been done. Would it have been better than what we saw? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But aren't you at least a little sorry that we'll never get to find out?

Want to know more about Joss Whedon, Willow, Tara and their fans? Click below and read on...

The Executive Producers New Clothes




Now, the next question - should we hit the boards tonight, this weekend, or wait until Monday morning? Use your best judgement.
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby Ben Varkentine » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:58 pm

I have this...call it speculation, call it suspicion. At any rate I have no proof. But unless I'm wrong (and please correct me if I am), the first person to raise the accusation that Whedon "couldn't kill Tara because she was a lesbian," and therefore imply that was the POV of those of us unhappy with the decision...was Joss Whedon.

In that much-quoted Bronze snippet (the one that starts, "I killed Tara"), he raises that issue somewhat like a straw man in order to bat it aside.

My suspicion is that a lot of people like Ang, or even my editor at Ink 19 who wrote (the pro-Whedon section of) the lengthy essay with Kyra and I, read that. I think they accepted it like mother's milk, letting Whedon define the parameters of our argument. And never quite got their minds around the idea that it was a little more complicated than that.

Does that make sense to anybody?
Ben Varkentine
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:24 pm

It makes perfect sense. Although it's also possible that someone on the Mutant Enemy staff said "We can't kill Tara because she's a lesbian" in one of the story meetings, and Joss has been pushing it from there.

I must say that nearly all of the people who argue Joss's side on this issue express their points in very simple black-and-white terms. They think we're saying Joss must show [b:17efef7b4a] absolutely complete[/b:17efef7b4a] social equality or it's not worth doing, or that Willow and Tara must be [b:17efef7b4a] completely happy[/b:17efef7b4a] if they're going to be on the show. There's almost no concept of subtlety or shading at all.
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby Jonathan Dupont » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:44 pm

[quote:df888791d4][b:df888791d4][i:df888791d4]Quote:[/i:df888791d4][/b:df888791d4]
Yes, if you go in expecting me to accuse Joss of homophobia and read the article with that mindset, so that you screen out every instance where I say otherwise, you can come out with that conclusion. But you will have gotten that conclusion from your own mind, not from me, so don't go pointing fingers at me.
[/quote:df888791d4]

Well, yes, but what I think Ang was trying to say was that you'd find it hard to find what's been on Buffy homophobic if you didn't ignore what it had actually shown. I'm not saying that I agree with the argument (or disagree for that matter), I'm just trying to defend Ang from the allegation that she hadn't read any of your articles and that she had said that you had called Joss a homophobe.

Just trying to promote general understanding, but if this is inappropriate tell me and I'll stop. I don't want to annoy anyone.
Jonathan Dupont
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby mscheckmate » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:36 pm

Then why is Ang bringing up the homophobia issue at all?

Bob's essays have stated clearly and repeatedly that he is not accusing Joss of homophobia. Therefore, there's no reason for Ang to defend Joss against a charge that hasn't been made.
mscheckmate
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby ari23 » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:00 pm

As far as I read it, that was Ang's way of trying to discredit Bob's arguments - by showing that he was guilty of the very thing that he was accusing Joss and ME of. Unfortunately for her, her argument didn't really go through (in my opinion). Sure, it's possible for someone to read Bob's essays and think he was accusing ME of being homophobes, but there would be concrete evidence that they'd be wrong. It's not so hard to interpret imagery in a TV show or a story that the writers didn't intend. But if someone misinterprets Bob's essay to think he's accusing ME of being homophobic, then that person just didn't pay attention when they were reading the essay. Er, sorry. That rant wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Sometimes I'm struck by fits of logic.

And Ben... I think what you said definitely makes sense, and I think it's a pretty common tactic. I mean, it's always easier to argue against a weaker position. It's just a cop-out.


-Ari
ari23
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby mscheckmate » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:07 pm

That's the point I was trying to make by asking Jonathan that question.

And that's what's so frustrating about this dialogue, whether it's with Ang, or Joss, or whomever else is ignoring the points we're making.

Bob and other kittens are discussing issues like lying, insensitivity, poor plotting, and weak writing. Yet, those who still believe that Joss walks on water continue to focus their arguments on accusations of homophobia that haven't been made, so that they can dismiss our concerns as those of hysterical lesbians who "just won't let it go."
mscheckmate
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:56 pm

[quote:743d4cc82c][b:743d4cc82c][i:743d4cc82c]Quote:[/i:743d4cc82c][/b:743d4cc82c]
Originally posted by Jonathan Dupont:
[b:743d4cc82c] I'm just trying to defend Ang from the allegation that she hadn't read any of your articles and that she had said that you had called Joss a homophobe.[/b:743d4cc82c]
[/quote:743d4cc82c]

Okay, this is what I meant in my last post when I said people were putting things into very black-and-white, simplistic terms.

[b:743d4cc82c] I never said Ang hadn't read any of my articles. Scroll back up this very page and see for yourself.[/b:743d4cc82c]

I said it looked like she had screened out [b:743d4cc82c] some[/b:743d4cc82c] of the things I said. Obviously she's read my articles, because she quotes from them in her rebuttal - or misquotes, as the case may be. But she points at the part where it looks like I'm accusing Joss of homophobia and ignores the part where I say it isn't homophobia, even when it's in the very same sentence. For example:

[quote:743d4cc82c][b:743d4cc82c][i:743d4cc82c]Quote:[/i:743d4cc82c][/b:743d4cc82c]
"...even if Mutant Enemy didn't intend to tell a homophobic story, they were still capable of placing a homophobic image on the screen."
[/quote:743d4cc82c]

What Ang did was point at the part that said "they were still capable of placing a homophobic image on the screen," even though the words [b:743d4cc82c] immediately preceding that phrase[/b:743d4cc82c] (um, that means coming right before it) very clearly say "Mutant Enemy didn't intend to tell a homophobic story." She saw what she wanted to see and screened out what didn't fit her premise. I never said she didn't read the articles at all.
BBOvenGuy
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby Sheridan » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:19 am

[quote:5fbb08ba9d][b:5fbb08ba9d][i:5fbb08ba9d]Quote:[/i:5fbb08ba9d][/b:5fbb08ba9d]
so that they can dismiss our concerns as those of hysterical lesbians who "just won't let it go."
[/quote:5fbb08ba9d]

Dead right [b:5fbb08ba9d] mscheckmate[/b:5fbb08ba9d] ME want to characterize the kittens complaints as special pleading by a minority, that way they don't have to address the major issues we have with the way S6 was executed. An [b:5fbb08ba9d] Jonathan Dupont[/b:5fbb08ba9d] how about posting up your view of S6? That way there won't be any confusion about where you're coming from.
Sheridan
 


New Essay / Response to &quot;Slayer News&quot; - Fi

Postby Jonathan Dupont » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:46 am

Let's just say that my view isn't the view of most people here... however I'm not here to 'convert' or argue with you. Just thing if people are going to debate, then there's more important things to debate than who's calling who homophobic - which in this case I don't think anybody was doing.

I think Ang's editorial was aimed at more than just Rob's articles; as she she says "I'm not actually going to spend a lot of time exploring why the accusation that Joss Whedon and the other members of Mutant Enemy are homophobic is inaccurate, since Mr. Black was nice enough to cover it in his article". In other words, she knows that's not what you think.

On the "I never said Ang hadn't read any of my articles. Scroll back up this very page and see for yourself" - again, I think we've got wires crossed. I was referring to the implication from DianaBouvier's statement "I mean she claims you're calling Whedon a homophobe when the name of your essay rebutes that?" Perhaps I was wrong to read that as the idea that Ang didn't read anything properly.

If I may ask a question myself, one issue has started to make me think I've gone delusional, and so I'm wondering if anyone could perhaps back up or deny something for me. A lot of people seem to be mad that Amber never went in the credits - but I'm sure that I heard in an interview that that was actually her decision as she wanted more contractual flexibility than being in them would allow. Did my head just make that up?
Jonathan Dupont
 

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