New Essay / Response to "Slayer News" - Fi

[tommo]

Well, from Amber's own mouth, she said it was a Joss Whedon issue. That's what she told myself and a few other kittens who were lucky enough to talk to her and ask her precisely that question.

I won't go into the "reading between the lines" issue, because that would involve my own personal viewpoint and I think it's largely helpful to stick with the facts. The interview with Amber can be seen in its entirety at [b:b500e90cd8] The Nether Realms[/b:b500e90cd8], but here's the part that's appropriate:

[quote:b500e90cd8][b:b500e90cd8][i:b500e90cd8]Quote:[/i:b500e90cd8][/b:b500e90cd8]

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[b:b500e90cd8] its a question that everybodys been asking us to ask you, why arent you in the credits for Season 6?

Amber: Its a Joss Whedon question. I have no answer.

Ruth: Do you want to be in the credits for Season 6?

Amber: Wouldnt you wanna be in the credits for Season 6?

Ruth: Yeah.

Amber: ButIm just happy to be on Buffy, one way or the other. And I am in the opening credits, Im in Willows stuff. [/b:b500e90cd8]

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[/quote:b500e90cd8]

[Sheridan]

[quote:df3fc9c127][b:df3fc9c127][i:df3fc9c127]Quote:[/i:df3fc9c127][/b:df3fc9c127]

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Let's just say that my view isn't the view of most people here...

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[/quote:df3fc9c127]

Well sorry [b:df3fc9c127] Jonathan[/b:df3fc9c127] but I'm going to ask again, what is your view? On Willow and Tara, on the way Tara's death was handled, on S6 as a whole.

[Coma123]

I gotta say I love your alternate scenario Bob, it just make sense. Really thats the best way to describe it, it fits the characters, the story and most of all the narrative that they had been setting up for the past 5 and 1/2 seasons. Until the blew it all to hell
The story they chose to tell was so poor, so obvious, so predictable and worst of all so old. I mean the revenge on the dead lover thing its been done just so much before its boring.
See thats the thing that really gets to me.
Joss chose Soap Opera over Shakespeare.
He betrayed his story.

[friskylez]

Actually Jonathan [b:0edf5090df] that was actually her decision as she wanted more contractual flexibility than being in them would allow [/b:0edf5090df] is the spin that Joss fans want to put on the fact that Amber wasnt in the credits...The question was asked directly of Amber and well if you read Tommos post youll see what she said..Cant "spin" their way out of that one

[Jonathan Dupont]

Well, you can't blame a guy for being confused over the Amber/credits thing if that's the case Good thing to see that I wasn't just being delusional over the contract thing, even if apparently it's spin. I don't think it would be a bad thing to put in the FAQ, if it's ever revised again.

As for my view, while I don't think it's relevant, if you really want it: I think killing off Tara was unfortunate and not something I would probably have done if I'd been in charge. On the other hand I think attacking ME because of it is pointless and very probably counterproductive. If they are one of the very few television companies that would make such characters then they should be encouraged - I would bet any amount of money that you're money likely to see a long term gay or lesbian character in Firefly than Enterprise, for example.

[BBOvenGuy]

[quote:00f791a4af][b:00f791a4af][i:00f791a4af]Quote:[/i:00f791a4af][/b:00f791a4af]

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I would bet any amount of money that you're money likely to see a long term gay or lesbian character in Firefly than Enterprise

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[/quote:00f791a4af]

Well, except for the fact that [i:00f791a4af] Enterprise[/i:00f791a4af] will probably be around for six more years, but [i:00f791a4af] Firefly[/i:00f791a4af] will be lucky to survive for six months.

Besides, if you read some of the threads on this board, you'll find that a lot of us here don't think Joss putting a lesbian couple on his show is worth it if he's just going to end up treating them the way he treated Willow and Tara.

[xita]

[b:9ccc308fac] Jonathan[/b:9ccc308fac] I think certainly your ignorance of the contractual/credits situation proves you aren't aware of all the issues involved here and therefore maybe this isn't the best topic for you to debate.

Again, feel free to express your opinion. But do not try to tell us what to do. It is our right to criticize who we want, you don't like it you can leave, but [b:9ccc308fac] don't try to suggest how we should react again[/b:9ccc308fac]. We won't justify ourselves to anybody and we aren't going to engage in an argument with you over why we have the right to speak out.

And you make assumptions about us that have no basis in fact. Counterproductive to you maybe, but not to me. If ME never speaks of a gay person ever again it would only make me to happy. I don't want them to use and abuse gay people ever again.

[WebWarlock]

We were the first to praise ME when Willow came out.
We were the first to praise Amber when the other boards were attacking her for her appearance and any other number of things.

We were stabbed in back when it became known that the sole purpose of bring Tara into the picture was for Joss to kill her.

This is not ME being brave for introducing a lesbian character. This is another production company in hollywood doing what every other production company has done since the beginning.

As far as fighting. I plan to keep on because I am seeing a positive effect.
I see nearly $4,000.00 to help teenagers that might feel that their lives are not worth living.
I see my friends here for the first time in a long time feel something other than pain and betrayal.
I see ME putting out the spin so fast that they can't even agree on what they are doing.
I see professors at Universities using our FAQ to help educate others. I have a list of them if anyone cares.
I see a panel discussion at the Hugo awards at Wold Con about this very topic.
I have seen posters come here and tell us "I never knew that, my god that is awful!" and go on about how we helped them see how the world really is for some people.
I have seen more than one author here swear that any lesbian character they have will not meet this cliched end. Not that they won't have problems, but it won't be this.

If damage is being done, then ME did it to themselves. And in the end, I don't care about damage done to ME, Buffy or any other of their shows. They are not the people I need to help.

Warlock

[urnofosiris]

[quote:170573e676][b:170573e676][i:170573e676]Quote:[/i:170573e676][/b:170573e676]

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On the other hand I think attacking ME because of it is pointless and very probably counterproductive. If they are one of the very few television companies that would make such characters then they should be encouraged - I would bet any amount of money that you're money likely to see a long term gay or lesbian character in Firefly than Enterprise, for example.

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[/quote:170573e676]

Sounds like the popular argument that we just should not say anything. I don't think things ever changed for the better for any minority group by just keeping quiet and swallowing every insult, injury and injustice thrown their way.
You may be right about that lesbian or gay character, but that does not change the current issue, and I will not hold my breath for it, nor would I trust them to not make a royal mess of it again, seeing as every word out of their mouths since all of this went down only makes it clear that the only interest they have is making themselves smell like roses, and not listening to a word we've said. So I won't stop my criticism in the hopes that Joss Whedon may give us a new gay character, or rather relationship, for what made Willow and Tara unique is not just that they [b:170573e676] were[/b:170573e676] good, happy, living breathing human beings, but also that they had a loving relationship.

[justastraightdog]

Regarding the alternate S6:
IMHO there's an inconsistence between Bargaing and the W vs. B plot. Maybe better to rewrite Bargaining, too? Willow [i:dc0dbec721] forced[/i:dc0dbec721] to bring Buffy back by Dawn and/or the rest of the Scoobies, so that the leadership question is there from the beginning (though only in the background, because at first Willow is happy to have her best friend back).

Regarding the opening credits:
Can it be that Amber said something like that for season 5? Because what Jonathan has written rings a bell, but a very old one (why she isn't there after her prominent role in Restless or something like that).

[xita]

Maybe you should really inform yourself. Amber wasn't in the credits cause Joss didn't want her to be on it. Amber bent over backwards to try to cover the secret of her murder because of her allegiance to Joss, but when it gets right down to it Amber wanted in the credits, wanted to be a regular but Joss never made her one because he always planned to murder her.

Justastraightdog, the reason it rings a bell is because fans like you and Jonathan keep perpetuating that lie.

[urnofosiris]

Did you read what tommo posted? I was there when she said that last summer, after season 5, before season 6, and at that time she was aware of Tara's fate. What those words do not convey is the look in her eyes and the tone in her voice, I never heard Amber Benson say I do not want to be in the credits and this is as close as she came to saying out right that she wanted to be, but unlike Joss Whedon and ME, she never told lies. It should be very obvious she was not in the credits because Mr Whedon had already decided to kill Tara early in S5, he was just waiting for the most hurtful way in which to do it.

[justastraightdog]

Oh, sorry, I think I have a US/Germany problem here. I heard that lie around the beginning of season 5. IN GERMANY. We are a year behind here, and at that time I didn't want to get spoilered, so I didn't read international NGs or boards. So it was second-hand info, and I put it to the wrong season.

And for season 5 it makes sense - well, not much sense, but it's at least not as obvious a lie as for season 6. But I still don't think that the biggest offense was her [i:a99cfbfe05] not[/i:a99cfbfe05] in the credits but that they put her in the credits of SR, reducing her role to that of a character like Jonathan (as in 4x17).

[urnofosiris]

Actually I think they reduced her to less even, but hum, I am sure I have ranted about that somewhere already.

[Sheridan]

This was the story that started doing the rounds around the time of S5, that Amber didn't want in the credits, but it seems to have been just a piece of spin put about by ME. And the idea that if they simply give Willow another girlfriend will make the W/T fans happy is as ridiculous as thinking they could pair Buffy with another soul-having vampire and make the B/A shippers happy, and that would be pretty darn ridiculous

[urnofosiris]

And yet, when they do give Willow a new gf and they find out that not only will we not be fawning all over them but on the contrary be even more angry about that, I am sure they will be just as 'surprised' as they were about our reactions after SR, because none of them ever looked around on the internet when we were already reacting upset over the spoilers last season.

[justastraightdog]

I don't think ME wants to make [i:8912817f97] anyone[/i:8912817f97] happy, not even the Spuffy-shippers for all we know about season 7. Hm... a show that doesn't make it's fans happy... hm.

Well, I'm not a showbiz insider, but for me this sounds not like a good idea at all. But mayby tv works different and angry fans are a goal worth striving for. I usually lose my interest on shows which made me unhappy or angry and therefore I don't know if they are successful afterwards. All I know is that most of them had already disappeared when I was ready to give them a second chance.

Btw: That was not the case with BtVS, I left after 2 eps of season crap (aka 4) and came back only for the guest appearence of my favorite character in "Who are You". I didn't expect to find anything else, but little did I knew. But I don't think that the show will be there when I'm ready for a third chance, around 2007 or so.

[Amethyst]

xita wrote: [quote:7297cc4c7f][b:7297cc4c7f][i:7297cc4c7f]Quote:[/i:7297cc4c7f][/b:7297cc4c7f]

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when it gets right down to it Amber wanted in the credits, wanted to be a regular but Joss never made her one because he always planned to murder her.

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[/quote:7297cc4c7f]

And yet we have this direct quote from her, from the October 2001 issue of Steppin' Out magazine: "...I chose not to be a series regular...." This is very possibly the source of the "lie" that xita accuses some fans, including two who have posted here, of perpetuating. (Rude much?)

And Dr. G tells us that Amber never lies, and I'm sure he must be the final word on such matters since he once stood in the same room as her. So what's the deal?

Look, I realize that there's a great deal more evidence, including the much-vaunted Kitten interview, that suggests Amber wanted to be in the credits. And why wouldn't she? Nevertheless we have at least one occasion where she directly contradicts this herself. So can you blame a few people for being confused? Yes, apparently you can. And heaven forbid you should try to be upfront about something like this. Can't have any chinks in the wall.

I don't even think that one remark is a big deal. Personally I never made much of it. But that fact is, everyone here seems to be deliberately ignoring it. Everyone here seems to be deliberately ignoring a lot of things. Take what fits, and if something doesn't fit, twist it until it does. And if that doesn't work, just ignore it. The Kittens love to talk about the spin artists at ME, but let me tell you, you guys give them a run for their money.

Like saying that she wasn't made a regular because Joss "always planned to murder" Tara. (And yes, he murdered Tara, not Amber--not sure if xita is being careless or disingenuous there.) There is zero basis for that conclusion. And believe me, I am NO fan of Joss Whedon, but saying that he ALWAYS planned to kill off Tara is just ridiculous. What, when he introduced her in "Hush" he was like, heh heh, can't wait to murder this dyke 2 and a half years from now? Please.

You do your cause no good with such ravings. And it doesn't help the lesbian community at large either, trust me.

[WebWarlock]

Actually there is evidence that Joss in fact had planned to kill Tara off from pretty much the start.

There is Amber comments at the Toronto Trek, which gives us the timing of said action.

There is Joss' on commentary on the UK version of the season 4 DVD's from Restless.

Plus there is also an interview with Amber that I am working on finding now. It was done during the summer before Buffy moved to UPN. She is talking about the gift baskets that the cast got. The cast that is except for her.

No one comment either way is not a telling tale. But there is a preponderance of evidence. It is that it is easier for some people to ignore this interview with the Kittens than to admit that the Kittens have been right this whole time.

Oh and here is one other bit of information. Unlike about 99% of people out there claiming to know what Amber has said. Ruth got it from Amber in person.

And Ambers own agent has said on this this is 100% a Joss Whedon issue. I doubt if Amber had much to say in any case.

Warlock

[Amethyst]

WebWarlock, I believe the interview you're looking for is the one I quoted from above. The full exchange is as follows--

Interviewer: I heard that when Buffy switched over from the WB Network to UPN that the people at UPN bought the whole cast lavish gifts. True or false?

Amber: Well, I chose not to be a series regular, so I don't get the gifts or the big salary. But I also have the ability to go out and do movies in the middle of the season, which is really nice.

Again, I believe this is the source of the "Amber didn't want to be in the credits because she wanted flexibility to do other things" argument. And given what she says here, that's a perfectly legitimate thing to believe. Personally I think this is Amber doing a bit of spin herself, but who can say? Since I don't know Amber, certainly not me--nor anyone else here.

And concerning Amber's comments at Toronto Trek regarding Joss's plans to kill Tara, it's my understanding that Amber was told around the middle of Season 5. That's nearly halfway through Tara's tenure on the show. And she wasn't even sure of exactly when Joss told her.

[xita]

If you look carefully at my post, I did not say she didn't say otherwise, I said that Amber bent over backwards to try to hide what was going on with her contract. If you also read what you posted she does not speak of the credits situation, but of being a regular, which are different things. I said that given what came out since that interview it is clear that Amber did not choose not to be in the credits. Clearly Amber did nothing this past year during the buffy schedule that would prevent her from being on the show. She didn't make one movie or appear in a play (Taboo was made in the summer). To use that one comment over the rest, yes including but not limited to our interview that flat out say she wanted to be a regular, is a willful act of trying to twist the argument and place blame. I too think Amber was spinning for Joss, look at this interview from [b:218285eddf] the same time[/b:218285eddf] she say she didn't want to be a regular. from scifi wire 9:00am ET, 2-October-01 :
[quote:218285eddf][b:218285eddf][i:218285eddf]Quote:[/i:218285eddf][/b:218285eddf]

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Amber Benson told SCI FI Wire that, even though she'll play Tara in nearly every Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode this season, her name won't appear in the show's opening credits. "I think that whatever suits the show is what I want to do," Benson said in an interview. "Whatever [series creator] Joss [Whedon's] reasoning is for whatever he does, I'm 100 percent behind it, because he always does amazing things. So who am I to second-guess?"

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[/quote:218285eddf]


Listen carefully to Steven Deknight in his famous Succubus Club interview, they chose to leave the credits situation for a moment in which it would be mean and meant to distract. That was their choice, that is what they wanted. They chose to be cruel to the fans over credit to a woman who has given more than her share to that show.

It is not rude but mere stament of fact that saying Amber didn't want to be in the credits is a lie. She never said that. It is trying to place that particular insult upon Amber's shoulders.

Riley was in the credits without a regular contract, go ahead and ask those who know. He was in the credits till he left. Amber could have been given the same treatment but wasn't. Her credits were saved as a final insult in the episode that her character Tara was murdered.

To your last comments, yes Tara was meant to be murdered all along. Amber Benson herself said it at Toronto trek, yes there are the comments Joss made on the DVD. She was never meant to last, again not a lie, unless you want to call Amber Benson a liar, but I am not going to. She said she was told halfway through season 5 when her character would be murdered but to be fair she said Tara was always going to die, Joss just didn't know when.

[Amethyst]

xita, I personally agree with most of what you just said. My point is that there are legitimate ways in which people could have developed differing opinions, and calling them liars (or perpetuators of a lie, which is pretty much the same thing) struck me as unnecessary and rude.

And again, it's my understanding that Amber was told midway through S5 about Tara's fate. If someone could provide or point me to any comments suggesting Joss had it planned earlier than that, I'd appreciate it.

Edit: Also, it's sort of a dirty trick to imply that I want to call Amber Benson a liar.

[xita]

I will admit to being not altogether pleasant to people who come to the board and target certain threads to come argue with us without being aware of the facts. I am not too concerned with them. I would rather someone came to me with quotes like yourself then someone claiming to have heard gossip. I stand by my post, the credit situation is not in dispute as far as I am concerned and that is what made me upset, the credits. Claiming Amber didn't want to be in the credits is a lie. .. calling someone a liar is different, cause that would mean everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie. I claimed this one statement is a lie... and I stand by that.


[b:3c2fa8c015] Justastraightdog[/b:3c2fa8c015], if you find that you like the community and you begin to participate in all aspects of it, not just hot topic controversial threads, you will find nice people who will welcome you. There are many people who come here without any love for w/t or any desire to be part of the community. These people come to argue a point and not get to know the community and they will never be welcome.

[helpful information perha]

Dear amyth.

first off lets get something clear

1) not all amber fans who are upset by the out come of season 6 or what we perceive to be taudry treatment of amber by ME are lesbians in fact not all are women

2) not all W/T fans who are upset by the out come of season 6 or what we perceive to be a V E R Y poor story choice on the part of ME, which be it by chance or design resulted in images played out on screen that could clearly be interpreted as 'the lesbians were punished for their first overt on screen sex.' There area years of precident for actions to result in punishments on this show or at least there used to be,

3) it should be the cause of ALL to be sure the public airways are not used to defile, demean, steriotype or marginalize any specific group.
The desire to be present and presented in a even handed manner is a cause being fought for on a daily basis by any number of groups, just follow the trades if you don't believe me. studios are being petitioned by blacks, latinos, american indians, catholics, social workers, jews, family grps, italian americans, GLBT, etc etc etc to be present on the screen and presented in a manor that does not marginalize or steriotype


Now that we have that out of the way
lets talk

this boards members interviewed amber prior to season 6 and she made it clear she wanted to be a regular/in the credits but it was up to joss

subsequently wanda at eonline came out with comments to the effect that ambers agents were negotiating hard with ME but ME wasn't budging

and as I recall MabbyJen, ambers neigbor/friend who ran ambers chance website and fund raiser made comments to the effect that amber wanted to be a reg but ME wasn't going there

so then we have this one subsequent interview with a quote from amber that says SHE decided not to be a regular so as to be available for other work (but as it turns out, she had nothing else lined up)


Now given whats been said and reading between the lines, if I had to bet, I'd say

a young actress and her agent tried to push some negotiations to get her recurring role changed to 'regular' status,

the production company refused

and for the actress to
1)save face about being refused regular status and
2)keep said company from getting pissed off at her
(because whining to the press about not getting the billing wouldn't have endeared her to said producer and given her a bad rep in the biz),

said actress would then 'spin' things to the effect that it was her decision not to be a reg in order to keep her options (which didn't exist apparently) for other work open.

well thats how I would interpret it anyway

[Amethyst]

helpful etc., yes, that's my interpretation as well. And I am well aware of everything you stated, including the fact that not all Amber fans are lesbians. However, I am. An Amber fan, and a lesbian, that is. I think you are referring to my comment about the lesbian community at large...I have heard some disgruntled noises from certain folks in that community about the Kittens. I'm here to see what's going on and decide for myself if their reasons for making them are legitimate. Unfortunately from what I've seen so far I am inclined to think they are.

[BBOvenGuy]

I hope everyone will excuse me, but I'm going to step in and say...

[b:bc239ebb8c]TIME OUT!!![/b:bc239ebb8c]

This thread has attracted a number of Blessed Wannabes who want to argue this or that point with us. May I please ask that such discussion be taken to another thread?

The purpose of this thread was to talk about my latest article, which in all likelihood is going to be snubbed by Slayage and thus will not get sufficient attention unless [b:bc239ebb8c] we make it happen[/b:bc239ebb8c]. The same goes for my last article and about a half-dozen others, [b:bc239ebb8c] all[/b:bc239ebb8c] of which have been snubbed by Slayage, all while Ang's article got posted.

A while back I posted a "teaser" that was ready for people to copy and paste onto other posting boards so we could get some attention. Has anybody done that? Has anybody even [b:bc239ebb8c] seen[/b:bc239ebb8c] it? Or have we all been too busy arguing with newbies and/or potential trolls?

(The "potential" there is a gift. Be grateful. I've got a headache, I've had a bad week, and I might have to put one of my cats to sleep in the next couple of days. I'm cranky, all right?)

If you want to argue the same arguments about Amber's contract and credits and whatever else, that's fine. But please let's stay [b:bc239ebb8c] focused[/b:bc239ebb8c] on this thread. Is that too much to ask?

Okay, I'm done. We now return you to your regular programming.

[WebWarlock]

Amethyst,

No. That is not the one.

Warlock

[helpful information perha]

yes I saw your post, and yes I've spread the word to other boards I'm on and will cont. to promote your articles


Amyth.

so your a lesbian from other parts where lesbians are grumbling about the kitten eh

well i'm not a lesbian and i don't care much for rumors or rumblings or what not from other boards

what your really saying is you came here with an agenda.

so I'd suggest you either post a mod (or start a thread and address the board) to discuss the issues you've "heard about the board" that have led you here

-OR-

spend some time lurking here and find out what this place is really all about.

Its a very well spoken, integrated (gay/st8/male/female/ethnic minority/majority etc) community, and it would be hard for me to imagine why any gay community would be dissing it

[xita]

Please take it to the FAQ thread, if you can't find it, you haven't spent enough time on the board. But this thread is about Bob's essay. I will delete further posts on other issues.

[the kat whisperer]

Here I am to congratulate you, Bob on another wonderful essay. Again, all your points are well thought out and excellently argued. And IMHO, your "alternate season 6" idea is much better than what ME gave us.

*sigh* It only makes me wish that you had been sitting in on the story-planning meetings for S6. Damn it.

I'm not really on any other [i:4c3b6b8bba] Buffy[/i:4c3b6b8bba]-related message boards, but I'll do what I can to get the word out there.

kw


Edited to say: okay, been, done, conquered... (or words to that effect)... I've sent a copy of the season 6 alternate storyline with the link to the new essay out to all the lists I'm on... good god that's a lot of... em... lists (or at least a few, anyway) Hope that helps.

I'd also like to echo roamin's sentiment re someone using the idea for a fan fic