General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 6 - The Bermuda Triangle

[Dr.G]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tensai:
Willow's 'Hacker' persona is the darkest and most morally lax aspect of her character.

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Well now, seeing as Willow is returning to her hacker roots because she got in trouble with her magic roots, so to speak, she really must be heading for a fall now.

In no way do I see a comparison between any aspect of Willow's persona to that of the Lame Gunmen, especially not to Warren, now a rapist and a murderer.
Willow may have made her share of mistakes, but nothing comes close to what they have managed, and Willow's intentions, even if sometimes a little selfishly motivated, have always been to do good. She has a good heart and a conscience.
quote:

[xita]

OH i get it now. Cause I see no evidence in the past that Willow's hacker persona is darker than the others (not that I would split willow like that). What about willow the hacker is darker?

Garfield but I now see what the "benefit" of seeing the hacker persona as the darkest one since Willow is going back to her hacker roots, then of course she must be going darker.

Anyway, I don't think compartalizing Willow like that is what works best. Joss said Willow would find a balance between the technological and the mystical much like Jenny Calendar. This is where I see the show heading, but I am no spoiler queen

[Dr.G]

Well I hope that Joss will keep his word on that. I will love Willow just as much as I do now if she never floats another pencil again, but I would like it if she were to find a way to use her magic sparingly and wisely along with her other abilities, maybe with Tara's help.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 07, 2002).]

[Tensai]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
OH i get it now. Cause I see no evidence in the past that Willow's hacker persona is darker than the others (not that I would split willow like that). What about willow the hacker is darker?

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Perhaps darkest wasn't the best word to use, but morally lax is accurate. In fact, that's something that's been going on with Willow since Episode Two (ie: breaking into the City Hall computers - which she did before there was ever a threat). I would think in terms of magic, she was a bit more of a white hat vs. a black hat (at least before this season). I'm just saying that if you took the three elements of Willow, the hacker persona is less concerned about the boundries, ethics or morals of a situation.

Also, I don't feel that the original post intended to say that Willow's actions will necessarily follow those of the Troika. I know that wasn't the intention behind my own. The Troika combined would give you a very Willowy character, which is what I think the posts were getting at. While you can draw parallels between each member of the Troika and the other Scoobies, Willow is the only one who embodies all aspects of the group.

I would also point out that it's not Willow's hacker side that has been causing the problems this season. I'd also strongly disagree that she hasn't done anything nearly as evil as the Troika have. While she might not have killed anyone, we should not forget that she did go to extreme lengths to bring back Buffy. I'd also consider that what she did to Tara, certainly wasn't a good thing. Not to mention what happened with Dawn.

The point is, and I believe that this was even mentioned in an article. That Willow and the Troika kind of started out on the same path: Power, without consideration of the responsibility required to wield that power. They have since diverged from that path, with Willow heading to a more responsible persona, while the Troika goes deeper and deeper into the darkness.

I guess my only concern is whether or not her addiction lies in 'magic' or if it lies in 'power'. If it's the latter, then going back to her hacker roots might not be the best thing either. What's to say that she won't build a Tara-bot, then gleefully point out that she didn't need to use magic at all. It's like the alcoholic who stops drinking only to take up smoking. What is the real addiction?

Again, nothing spoilery, but something to keep in mind. The writers don't build up a storyline like this, only to drop it a few episodes down the road. We're not completely out of the woods just yet.

-Tensai

[This message has been edited by Tensai (edited February 07, 2002).]quote:

[Dr.G]

I'd strongly disagree with everything you just said. Again. I have more faith in the writers than you appear to have in the character of Willow if you can conceive of her ever building a Tarabot for example.

[xita]

My issue isn't with what Willow's done wrong, yeah, no arguments there. The thing that gets me is that the geeks are clearly not just a parallel for Willow, you can't erase the clear connections between Warren and Buffy and Spike and certainly that the geeks love the same things Xander does. To overlook those is to overlook what the writers are doing. It is silly to think that this season is all about Willow. All the scoobies are in this and the whole thing has become very muddy.

I have issue with the power thing. When looking at a problem one must look at the core, to say the addiction comes from a desire to have power is not an answer, it is still looking at the surface, so you have to ask more questions till you get to the answer. Why would Willow want power? Because she's insecure? Because she was treated like crap by so many people in her life. Now you are moving to places closer to where the answer lies. And you continue asking questions. Why is she insecure? Why did people treat her so bad? And so forth and so on.

[Dr.G]

Oh when I say I disagree with everything Tensai just said I should of course point out that I know only too well that what Willow did to Tara or Dawn was a *not* a good thing and that it was not just her hacker side causing the problems, that was just pointing out the obvious. Willow has made her mistakes, bad ones obviously, but in no bloody way does she come closer to resembling the lame gunmen than any of the other scoobies might, when it comes to certain actions, not even talking about motivations or personalities.

Blergh, please bring on the next episode, I cannot wait to see if Tara is any good at poker. I wonder if she cheats?

[cachaco]

xita, what do you mean by "certainly that the geeks love the same things Xander does?" that part of your post wasn't clear to me.

Also, on the power thing, I think it's definitely the case that Willow responds positively to the power she can exert through magic because she's been pushed around by people in her life. But there's more: I think it has to do with having something she's good at that *other people* recognize as good. It's not like Willow has ever really been powerless - she's always been very smart and capable, with the tech and science and such. She always knew she was smart, but never got recognition - from the popular kids, from her mom, from her childhood crush Xander. (I'm thinking of Willow in high school here.) So she always had power in a sense, but the crappy part was not getting recognized for it.

Now, with magick, no one can deny her abilities. Also, it makes everyday things a lot easier for her (getting dressed, decorating the house for a party). These two things combined I think make magick something really attractive for her, but also very dangerous. So then what's the difference in this regard between her and Tara? What is it about Tara that allows her to use magic respectfully? We've talked in other threads before about her having a connection with her mother and having grown up with it, but I wonder if there's more. Or maybe, I wonder if there are other reasons why Willow got so much more into it, and in a not-so-good way. Don't really have any answers....

[xita]

I meant the geek gadgets and things like early this season when they first became a problem xander thought he'd found something similar to their plan on a dungeon's and dragon's manual (which was funny to me cause I think that is exactly the kind of inspiration for their plans). Also in DMP:

WILLOW (cont'd)
Which is good -- never gonna need
that. Plus there were, you know,
razor scooters and pictures of the
Vulcan woman on Enterprise.

XANDER
Ooh. I mean, pff, nerds.

[cachaco]

gotcha, xita, thanks for clarifying.

you know, i don't really buy this whole the troika embodies different parts of willow thing. everyone's changed so much over the course of the show that such neat parallels don't make much sense, or don't stay true for long. the LG just represent the reluctance to grow up, which is all about avoiding responsibility, whether in the relatively benign form of not getting jobs, or in the hideous form we saw in "Dead Things" of callously disregarding the consequences of one's actions and trying to "get away" with stuff just for its own sake. Now THAT'S an unhealthy relationship to power....

Sorry for the double post.

[Dr.G]

Agreed Cachaco , but I still would not mind getting back to the spoilers now.

Speaking of which, I just now read on Angel X' site that Halfrek is the demon responsible for keeping them in the house by granting Dawn's wish. That little bit of info has probably been up for weeks right? I have just been blind. Again. I really should read my spoilers more carefully before begging for more next time. *sigh*

[The Partyman]

Okay, this is what I've been wondering since tuesday - it's not directly spoilery but linked to possible future events, so I hope that this thread is the right place for it

In "Dead Things", Buffy asks Tara to investigate the spell that Willow used to bring her back etc.

So does this mean that Tara now knows the FULL details of the spell, including Willows slaughter of the deer/fawn?!?

Surely if Tara studied the spell enough to know that there is nothing wong with Buffy, then she would now know about all that was involved in the spell?!?

Could this perhaps explain the little bit of extra tension with Willow outside the Magic Box, - she seemed to hide the book even after Willow said she didn't need too.

If Tara does know about what Willow did, and also about Buffy and Spike's sex-capades, then it wuite possibly makes her the most important character in the show at this point in the story arc.

So - does she know both the big secrets of the season?

[Shaniezak]

Okay . . . I think we all need to take a breath here and calm down about the parallels thing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I talk about making "parallels" between Willow and the LG, or the LG and any other Scooby for that matter, I'm not talking one of them mirroring every movement of the other exactly. I'm talking about a similarity in trends. I'm not implying that Willow would build a sexbot (though I'm sure she might've possibly built a robot at some point just to see if she could) or anything like that. The things to which I refer are more like a certain personality trait or situation which two characters may have in common, and the general--not specific--resemblances in the way they may or may not approach it, deal with it, etc.

Let me make something clear: I am not condemning Willow, nor am I condemning any of the other Scoobies. The LG's actions, on the other hand, leave plenty of room for due condemnation. (Granted, there's also room for a touch of absolution, but then again one could also conceivably and justly say that Willow has a certain amount to answer for in terms of her own decisions and actions . . . that all the Scoobies do. Xander's bad qualities come up at a halfway frequent rate around here, I've noticed, as have Buffy's; all the characters have flaws.)

In fact, because of the connections I perceive between the Scoobies and the LG, as well as the ways in which the LG are the Scoobies' antithesis, I have more respect and admiration for the Scoobs . . . the choices they've made, while not always perfect, come off looking so much better in comparison to those of the Troika. And, as I've said, I believe said parallels have since diverged. It's really not so much a parallel any more as it is the result of watching people come to a fork in the road, and set off down opposite paths.

Maybe I should stop using the word "parallels" altogether since it seems to make everybody so defensive . . . perhaps "similarities" is more suitable, though I get the feeling that someone will have an issue with it. I'm really at something of a loss for words to describe what I'm getting at more accurately.

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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos

"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station

[EricAlan69]

It's not about logic at all, but about emotions. I quit.

[invisigoth]

I don't think Tara would care that Willow killed Bambi. Willow killed a deer to get Buffy back. Woo-freakin-hoo. There are many worse things she could have done. She also thanks the deer for its sacrafice. That's kind of sweet.

[mat]

Is Joss definitely writing Ep 22 or is it just assumption?

[xita]

Shanie, I like that fork in the road thing, it is how I see it. The way different people comfront similar situations.

Anyway, let's take this conversation over to the discussion thread cause as far as I can see there are no spoilers in the conversation is merely speculation.

Back to your regularly spoilers.

As far as I know Joss writing 22 at this point is speculation, but I would say it's almost certain.

[Warduke]

quote:

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Originally posted by invisigoth:
I don't think Tara would care that Willow killed Bambi. Willow killed a deer to get Buffy back. Woo-freakin-hoo. There are many worse things she could have done. She also thanks the deer for its sacrafice. That's kind of sweet.

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Exactly!

Why do so many people think this would be a big deal, Tara finding out about the deer, Willow did it because she had to, it was part of the resurrection spell, so she just did it, why would this bother Tara?, I’m not saying that Tara would be like “Oh, you killed a deer…cool” but she wouldn’t freak out over it, it was part of spell, therefore it had to be done to bring Buffy back, she knew how important it was to Willow to do this, that’s why she went along with it to begin with, even though she knew it was wrong, because it meant so much to Willow.
quote:

[Dr.G]

It might bother Tara in a sense that Willow hid it from her, not the fact she killed it. Willow did what she had to do. Anyway, even if Willow not telling her about it does bother Tara, I doubt it would bother her for long, I think she would be more inclined to comfort Willow for having had to do something so hard.

[april]

tara already knew that deer's blood was required for the spell - she just thought willow got it "on the black market", because that's what willow told her in "bargaining". (she called it "vino de madre" or "blood of the mother").

there's no reason tara would find out that willow killed the deer from researching the spell, because she supposedly already knows how willow got the blood. the only way she'd ever suspect is if the spell specifically mentions "the spellcaster must kill the deer herself".

tara's question to willow in "bargaining" imply that she already knows the ingredients required for the spell (so she's probably read the spell directions or something), and the way she accepts willow's "black market" answer indicates that the spell doesn't specify how you have to get the deer's blood.

therefore, there's no reason that she'd ever discover that willow killed the deer, even if she does more research about the spell. does that make sense?

[This message has been edited by april (edited February 07, 2002).]

[Scout]

The fact that Willow had to perform a ritual when killing the deer (the words, etc) makes it seem like the spellcaster did indeed have to perform a ritual killing to make the spell work, otherwise Willow would have gotten the blood another way.

Several items made it seem like Tara was a little short on the spell's details:
- her asking "do we have everthing?"
- her not knowing where Willow was getting the final ingredient
- her not knowing what the demon was talking about in 'Afterlife' (did you pat its head?)

All this made it seem like Tara had trusted Willow to take care of the small details. I don't think Tara would have a problem with what Willow had to do, but she might have a problem with the fact that Willow covered it up twice (in 'Bargaining' and 'Afterlife'). Willow could have trusted Tara with the details, but she didn't.

It's not a major issue and based on the fact that it never came up in 'Dead Things,' I suspect it might not be brought up again on the show.

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited February 07, 2002).]

[tommo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Scout:
All this made it seem like Tara had trusted Willow to take care of the small details.

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She did. Especially after what she said to Xander in 'Afterlife' (I think that was the ep) about Willow not hurting anyone. At that point in the proceedings, remember, Tara's been brought back from Glory by Willow; protected by Willow; cared for by Willow; and now Willow's going to bring back the Slayer? As far as Tara's concerned, Willow is using her power for good, not frivolity.

quote:

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It's not a major issue and based on the fact that it never came up in 'Dead Things,' I suspect it might not be brought up again on the show.

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Right. To be honest, I think Willow and Tara have far bigger, more important issues to be concerning themselves with right now than a dead deer.

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdockquote:quote:

[xita]

I think if Tara knows Willow broke Dawn's arm the deer should not come as a shock or a surprise, I would think Tara is more interested in Willow's current behavior than what she did before.

[SeanGaffney]

Re: Xita's post. Hear, hear. I simply don't think Tara is the sort to keep a running count of everything that Willow did wrong, and mark it down as one more thing. Willow's redemption is far more important, especially as Tara still loves Willow, and thus is more inclined to forgive if Willow shows regret and change. There isn't a tote board of badness.

--SG

[The Partyman]

thanks for the comments.

I wasn't trying to imply that Tara would or should be freaked out if she knew about the fawn, or that it was a 'bad' think of Willoe to do; just that it is a secret - the scooby gang in general do not know about it yet.

As has been suggested, this may never come up in the show, but what I wished to suggest from my 'question' is that if it is relevant at all, then "Dead Things" has Tara, who has been sidelined a little since the W/T break up (*sob*) coming into possession of more than one thing that she "can't tell" the scoobies.

And if it were to be relevant, then the fact that it is Tara who knows will be important.

[BBOvenGuy]

I don't think Willow's killing the fawn will ever be brought up again. It'll be one of those things like "Xander's big lie" at the end of Season 2. There are still people waiting for that to be brought up again, and it's been over 3-1/2 years now.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."

[Hugin]

I don't really understand the importance some folks are ascribing to the deer, and I actually don't think it's a "secret" in a sense that's significant to the narrative.

What I mean by that is, what does the deer tell us, what could a revelation about the deer to Tara or the Scoobies tell them?

A: Willow has in general done some yucky things and tried to hide it from her friends.

Well, we and they already know that by now. At least two entire episodes this season have been devoted to the idea that Willow has done some yucky things in secret that her friends would be appalled or at least somewhat disturbed by. I'm not sure how much dramatic mileage Joss and co could or would bother to try to get from:

"Hey, in addition to lying to you about the yuckiness of the resurrection spell, hiding my increasing magic addiction, altering your minds, and endangering Damn's life, I also killed a deer!"

"Dear lord, when?"

"Well, it was part of the resurrection spell."

"Oh. Well, yeah, that spell sucked all around."

B: In specific, the resurrection spell was much more dark and hardcore than Willow let on to her friends.

"Hey, in addition to the horrendous gashes opening up on my body, and barfing up a snake, and that it had the effect of yanking her out of Heaven, you know what else was bad about the spell that I never told you? It required me to kill a deer!"

"Oh. That's where the blood came from then? Ew. Nice one Will. Remind me to get cake recipies from you like, never."

or

"Sweetie, it's been a huge struggle to let go my hurt and feelings of violation...but I can't deny I still love you...I guess I'm saying I'm willing to try again. Assuming you never pull that shit on me or the others or yourself again."

"Oh god, Tara, I won't mess it up this time, I promise, I love you so much....um...look...before you take me back..I guess it would be only fair to let you know that when i did the spell I didn't buy the blood..I killed a deer to get it."

"Um, bonjour, giving you the second chance here. Less last minute guilty confessing, more thorough "making it up to me" in the traditional post-flamey candle manner."

I just don't see it being a big deal, given what they already know. It's yucky, but they've been hip deep in yucky all season, this is is just a detail, they knew the blood came from something. And none of the scoobies, not even Tara, has indicated onscreen that what they want from Willow is a confessional accounting of her recent misdeeds. Some people who've had thier trust betrayed want exactly that, to be told every detail, to know exactly everything that's been hidden from them. And some recovery programs require it as well, that the addict or offender confront thier acts publicly. But that doesn't seem to be the stance of Tara or any of the other Scoobies. The misdeeds and thier severity are a given, it's the behavior going forward that they're concerned about.

*None of the preceding sample dialogue written by Joss Whedon, Mutant Enemy staff, or anyone with an ear for character voice. Member FDIC. Consult your doctor.

-len

[ange*]

New spoiler at the Cross and Stake posted by Angel X, about this episode. Here's what Michelle says:

quote:

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The ep's got pretty equal parts of fun and drama.

Most of the confrontations surround Dawn and the whole stealing thing.

The only connections to "Dead Things" are a brief Buffy/Tara talk about Spike and Dawn's situation, which only gets worse in this ep. Spike's physical appearance is purely the result of make-up and possibly the director. Not addressed in the ep. As far as B/S is concerned in the ep, there's really no discussion of what happened between them in Dead Things. It's over and forgotten.

Willow and Tara do talk.

And Dawn gets a whole bunch of different reactions to all the things that are discovered about her. Depends on the character and the effect of Dawn's actions on them.

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Ange.
quote:

[scout*]

Well, based on all we've heard and seen, Tara goes into the b-day party still not really trusting Will and then discovers she has a stash in the house (assuming it's hers and not Dawn's), thus causing Tara's trust to take another dive. Yet at the end of the ep, they leave on good terms with promise for the future, so it sounds like something significant must take place during the show/the talk to convince Tara that Willow is serious about her rehab and that maybe they have a chance of working things out.

[xita]

Why can't the whole episode be about w/t talking and talking and touching and kissing.. and oh nevermind