General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 6 - The Bermuda Triangle

[Warduke]

xita, why can't every episode be like that...*sigh*

[kpmuse]

You mean every episode is not already like that? OH! Must be in my head...going back there now!

[kitten scout]

Maybe since Tara's helping Buffy, Buffy will help Tara realize how much Willow is trying to overcome her addition. The stash of magical stuff could be from when Buffy and Dawn did a sweep of the house.

[mat]

As BBO said the killing of the fawn is an insignificant detail in the long run just as Xander not passing on the message to Buffy in Becoming was an insignificant detail. Yeah it was highly significant at the time but this is meant to be 6 months later in the Buffyverse... so ya know why leave it this long to bring it up again (unless they wanna split W/T NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - but that SO won't happen!)

[tommo]

Hey, moderator miss, less of the 'talking and talking' and more of the non-verbal communcation. Yes? I thank you.

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

[Italiangirl]

I have to weigh in on the deer issue as well here. I am in the camp of those who think it is incredibly not a big deal. In fact, I think it is running in the opposite direction of a big deal.

To me, the writers included the deer scene as a way to illustrate Willow's determination to bring back Buffy, and to show how her character was evolving (I.E. the "Don't hit the horsies" Willow of S5 to the deer-killing Willow of S6). I don't believe it was ever meant to be a plot advancing device.

I think Tara and the scoobs knew the spell was dark and hairy. I echo the sentiments of other kitties who pointed out that Willow vomited a snake...in that light, the deer slaughter is small potatoes. AND she did thank the deer...to me it was very humane, and echoed Native American rituals.

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"You're in my blood like Holy Wine
You taste so bitter, and so sweet
Darling, I could drink a case of you
And still be on my feet;
I would still be on my feet."
-Joni Mitchell

[lurker1.0]

I highly doubt that the deer issue will be brought back at all. The issues between W/T are centered on Willow's abuse of magick and her violation of Tara's mind.

And as many have already said, I think on some level Tara did know what that the spell required the deer's blood even if she didn't know exactly how Willow went about getting it. And probably the only reason we know about it, is that the writer's wanted to show us how determined Willow was to get Buffy back. And that's probably where they're going to leave the deer issue. In the grand scheme of things it isn't that important.

And to bring it back now would just prevent any reconciliation between W/T. The more badness that's brought up between them the less likely it would be to continue adavncing the plot in the direction the writers seem to be going. Right now all signs are pointing to an eventual reconciliation between W/T, and to accomplish that things that are done must be left done and not brought up again. It would be more a step bachwards than a step forward at this time.

[This message has been edited by lurker1.0 (edited February 08, 2002).]

[Dazey]

What the hell is with the deer thing? Can we stop talking about it now, please? At least the Xander/Tito stuff was funny, five pages of deer stuff is just annoying. And not spoiler-related.

[Sassette]

Ahh ... and such is life in the Kitty Spoiler Thread when sources seem to be eerily quiet. I mean, we know lots of good stuff, true ... but ... I dunno ... this lack of anything really good or new for awhile is kinda making me twitchy.

I think I'll just twiddle my thumbs until something new pops up to distract me from their, well ... twiddliness.

-Sass

[Lijdrec]

Another Marti Noxon article from Zap2It about B/S!
http://tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?23792
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"I don't think anything about that is OK," says executive producer Marti Noxon. "I don't think that we were trying to say that's OK. That's definitely not offered as a conflict-resolution technique. It's part of the pathology of their relationship." (concerning B/S fights).

"We've been getting so much feedback from fans," says Noxon. "They see Spike as a hero now. I've said to you and other people that the relationship is basically something we thought would reflect the kinds of relationships you choose when you're choosing the wrong person."

"People have been very upset about that. They're like, 'He's not the wrong person. He's all redeemed.' Part of what needs to happen at this point is to show that redemption is possible for Spike, but he's not redeemed now, and their relationship is really based on things that are not healthy."

"It doesn't mean that things won't get better for them, but what it's based on right now isn't healthy. It's not showing Buffy in the greatest light, but our intention was to show that they need to change what it's about, or it's never going to last."

Asked about showing Buffy -- who is supposed to be the hero of the story, and a moral person -- inflicting pain out of anger on someone who is not fighting back, Noxon says, "This will probably inflame fans of a different opinion, but my only answer to it is that this relationship isn't bringing out the best in either of them. Maybe it's bringing out the better in him in some ways, but it's not bringing out the best in her."

"This is bringing out a desperation in her, and she's going to have to deal with that. Long-term, there are definitely repercussions to what's happened."

[BBOvenGuy]

Interesting comments. Thanks for posting that!

Marti seems genuinely surprised that there are people out there who think the B/S relationship as it stands right now is a good thing. In a way it makes sense - they're exploring a type of relationship that a lot of people are in or that a lot of people have romanticized notions about. In some ways, these fans are kind of like the people who call themselves Willow fans yet are disappointed that she's not going to turn evil.

I can't help wondering if the people who are fans of the relationship will start talking about "anvilization by ME" once the story arc reaches its inevitable ugly ending.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 08, 2002).]

[Lijdrec]

I've never considered that Spike was completely redeemable, but I have thought that he was tolerable. But Marti is right, Buffy is treading towards 'BB' status right now. Her own situation, her lack of self-respect is not allowing her to see that which is worthy of respect in other characters, well - ok, mostly Spike.

[Wiccagrrl]

Ugg. Not sure I'm thrilled with what she's saying there. Not the Spike's not redeemed stuff or the This isn't good for Buffy or Spike stuff. The part where she talks about how now they have to show that Spike *is* redeemable and that they have to change things if "it's gonna last"

Anyone else here *not* particularly interested in them devoting huge acres of screentime (more than they have already, that is) to Spike's redemption? Or to Buffy and Spike working things out? I just have so little interest in them turning "Mr Right Now" into "Mr. Right". I hope that's not what she's getting at. The only reason I'm able to stomach the current storyline is that they *are* showing it as not particularly healthy.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[supermus]

I love B/S almost as much as W/T, and I agree that they need to cut down on that screentime. All ships actually transpiring on the show should get equal airtime, but unfortunately, that doesn't look like it's going to happen since the imminent B/S breakup is bound to be a big fat screentime suck-uper(not a word, is it? sucker-up?) I thought Marti said spikes not REDEEMED, not that he's not REDEEMABLE. He hasn't earned his redemtion yet, but I have no doubt he can.

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"You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"
"Good bye to you/Goodbye to everything that I knew"

[BBOvenGuy]

Well, they're kind of in a predicament with Spike. They have to do something with him, because James Marsters is signed through next season and everyone likes working with him. The relationship with Buffy can't go on as it is for much longer. He either has to start taking steps toward redemption or become a Big Bad again - and if you make him a Big Bad again, you've got to get around the chip problem while finding a fresh way to make him the villain.

There's a third option that's a bit more radical - kill Spike off and then use that as an opportunity to re-make him into something new. A wacky notion, yes, but it wouldn't be the first time Joss tried something like that.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."

[xita]

Tracy I am completely with you. That is the only reason I have tolerated this storyline. It's actually troublesome that she seems to suggest that they can make it work if they change things. I have always thought the whole thing sent the wrong message and I stand by that. All the writers have said that as well. We'll have to see how this turns out but yeah, less screen time please, like yesterday.

Who wants Buffy to stand on her own without a guy for once??

What about an evil spike, who was fun and complex?

bleh

[Wiccagrrl]

I actually thought last year, after the Riley breakup, and Joyce dying (leaving Buffy responsible for Dawn) that they were headed towards giving her some time to stand on her own two feet, get a break from *needing* to be in (yet another dysfunctional) relationship. Guess not

Well, we'll see where things are headed. At least they're making it crystal clear that things as they stand are tremendously unhealthy. But it worries me that they're hinting that B/S might be in it for the long haul.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[AutumnT]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
Who wants Buffy to stand on her own without a guy for once??

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That would be nice. To see her able to define herself outside of another person for a change. To be able to grow up to the point where she can handle a mature relationship rather than boinking the evil undead at the Bronze and feeling sorry for herself.

I bet Marti managed to piss off a bunch of people again with that interview.

mmmm Sassy eggs. I think I'll watch "Forever" tonight to celebrate.

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Autumn

I'm just taking stuff and not paying for it. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?quote:

[tommo]

Oooh congrats on your Sassy Eggs, Autumn. But then, I thought they were fine just the way they were.

I thought this season we were going to see Buffy on her own for a bit. Why is there this need for her to always have someone else in her life, romantically, I mean? I don't understand it and honestly, I'm not sure it's even necessary.

Perhaps I'm just a little antsy about this; but I'm getting pig sick of hearing about B/S this, and B/S that...enough, you know? How this will play out is beyond me right now.

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

[The Rose]

I will tell you one thing. I thought the show was called Buffy the Vampire Slayer not the Buffy and Spike Show. I personally would rather see Spike as the Big Bad than Buffy's boy toy. I liked it a lot better when Buffy beat the crap out of Spike when he has tried numerous times to kill her and her friends.

Second, I agree that Buffy does not need a boyfriend right now. She needs to mend things in her and Dawn's relationship. Why save her if you are going to ignore her half of the time? I still can not believe no one has found out Dawn is a klepto. Dawn needs a healthy relationship with her sister.

Third, If Buffy and Spike make it and Willow and Tara don't, I am going to be more p*****d off than I am now. Tara has had a lot of pain in her life, and I was hoping she had finally found everything she wants with Willow, but then those things happened. Now, look at Spike, he has killed two slayers and countless numbers of innocent people and gets just about everything he wants while being unpleasant(toned down for the mods ).
Tara has been a victim her whole life, and she deserves happiness almost more than anyone.

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited February 08, 2002).]

[Warduke]

quote:

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Originally posted by tommo:

Perhaps I'm just a little antsy about this; but I'm getting pig sick of hearing about B/S this, and B/S that...enough, you know? How this will play out is beyond me right now.

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I totally agree with you Ruth, I am sick and tired and all this B/S BS, if I wanted to read on and on about B/S I'd go to a B/S board.

quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Is this some new rule, that we can't discuss non-W/T spoilers in the general spoiler thread??? Cause this last couple posts were specifically based on a recent interview. And sadly, we haven't had many new W/T spoilers lately.

Sorry if I'm boring people.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[xita]

Tracy I don't think that's the way it was meant. And no it is not a rule.

I just had a thought, we have to regain our respect for Buffy it is her show and that is the focus, the writers know this. I have to have faith.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 08, 2002).]

[Wiccagrrl]

Hopefully sooner rather than later. I honestly do hope things get a bit better for Buffy soon, and that she can start to rebuild her relationship with Dawn, which is in frighteningly bad shape.

[The Rose]

Yeah, that is what I said in my post above albeit sort of long-winded.

[SciFiAcid]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lijdrec:
Another Marti Noxon article from Zap2It about B/S!

"We've been getting so much feedback from fans," says Noxon. "They see Spike as a hero now...

snip snip

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Ya know what frightens me the most... is even the slightest hint that those at ME are listening to THE FANS!!! That disturbs me to no end. I hope the last season doesn't turn into a 'Tapert'.

I love Spike. Season 6 Spike is BORING!!

I find nothing appealing (as a 'hero' or 'bad guy') about his character right now. I don’t think he is on any road to redemption because I know, and we have seen (and please lets not rehash that episode again) that once his chip is gone, he’ll be all ‘Big Bad Spike’ again. The only thing that the relationship between B/S is giving me as a fan is the creeps and I can understand, from the Marti interview, the basic ‘concept’ they are trying to delve into with it; but it just gets more icky each episode. Spike has become almost as bad as Dawn in the 'find them a storyline and something to do' avenue IMNSOH.

Gawd how I long for the days of Season 3 Spike... man!

And, oops, I’m sure I broke like 12 different board rules with that rant in this thread… tee hee.

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"Your tits are the key to your cage." ~ Edina Monsoon

[This message has been edited by SciFiAcid (edited February 08, 2002).]quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Gawd how I long for the days of Season 3 Spike... man!

During which he had exactly one episode. But oh what an ep Which, I'm deciding is how I like my Spike. Strong and in small doses.

[BBOvenGuy]

Before people get too bent out of shape (or is it already too late for that? ), let me point out a couple of things about this interview:

#1) Marti has a history of saying vague things that are worded in ways that will entice people to watch the show. Remember her comment about how "fans should be concerned" whether or not Tara is a demon? Unlike Joss and the writers who post at the Bronze, Marti seems to view these interviews as opportunities to promote the show rather than discuss it. Nothing wrong with that - it's all part of the Hollywood game, after all - but we need to keep that in mind.

#2) No matter how many interviews Marti Noxon gives, Joss is still in charge, and Joss is not going to let fan sentiment divert him from his vision.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"I have this sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation."

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 09, 2002).]

[SciFiAcid]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
Gawd how I long for the days of Season 3 Spike... man!

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Oh, hehe... how embarrassing. That was meant to be a '2'... Season 2... this is why I don't rant. I get all in a lather and choke on the suds!

Oy!

goes back to...hm... doing something else
quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Hehehe. Yeah, but I'd take season three Spike at this point, too