*puts on her glasses and grabs her prepared notes* Let's see...W: "She's not around much these days. We kinda miss her."
T: "I'm sure she feels the same way."basically equals -
W: "Tara, I don't see you around much anymore. I really miss you!"
T: "I so totally feel the same way. I miss you too."
I was delighted to see Tara's stutter return. I miss that little stutter when Tara's not around. It's so cute!
Watching X/A dance at the Bronze, yes, I'd pretty much have the same reaction as Willow. But I loved Willow and Anya dancing. It was funny.
I liked Katrina. She was tough. Wasn't going to take any crap from Warren. Even managed to kick some nerd butt. I really wish she could have stuck around. Stupid Warren... I shake my angry fist at you!! Uhhh not meant in a dirty way, thank you very much. ;p
I won't comment on the B/S stuff. Cuz I find it gross and disturbing.
------------------
Reincarnation: the futile attempt to get the milk back into the can
"I'm a blood-sucking fiend! Look at my outfit!"
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The Partyman
Floating Rose
Posts: 29
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:01
That final scene of "Dead Things" was truly brilliant.I take my metaphorical hat off to Amber's acting talent. IP: Logged |
Ari
Floating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:10
To me, what Dead Things illustrated a very interesting moral point. Anyone can do something bad. Either by accident or by choice, everyone is capable of doing something seriously wrong. And that in the end, it's the reaction to it that defines who that person is.I completely agree that there were some strong parallels between Willow and Warren's actions. Even though Willow's came from a basically good, if arrogant and misguided place, and Warren's came as much from below his waist as beneath his chest. But there are eerie similarities. Honestly, that bugged me a lot until toward the end of the episode and Buffy and Spike's big 'fight'. And then I understood that importance of the similarities of their actions was in the differences in their reactions. Willow accepted responsibility for what she did (eventually) and understood that she had to let Tara go. More importantly, she felt bad about it. And it seems clear she still does. It's all about the conscience. Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience. The scene at the Bronze demonstrated that pretty clearly. He shows his 'love' by debasing her and trying to alienate her from her friends and the world and sees nothing wrong with it. No matter how pure or real his feelings are, the way he acts on them is always going to be tainted by the fact that he's a soulless demon. And, of course, my own little happy dance for the reappearance of Tara! It occured to me, when she was so quick to assume the worst of Willow in the beginning, that while everyone else has been around Willow, seeing the strides she's making and how hard she's fighting, Tara hasn't had that opportunity. All she knows is that the last time someone told her Willow was doing better, the next thing she knew Willow was staying out all night doing spells that left a guy without a mouth, visiting a magick dealer and then nearly got Dawn killed. I think once she gets a chance to see Willow and be around her more, Tara can get a feel for the changes she's been going through and then can hopefully start to build up a little bit of trust in her again. The fact that there's now a sort of bond with Buffy that'll bring Tara back in closer with the group should really help with that. But Will's got a lot of ground to cover and in keeping with the theme for the season, she's going to have to do it the damn slow way. As for the Tara/Buffy scenes. Wow. I think Buffy went to the one person who wouldn't judge her and then almost wished she would. And poor Tara being put in the position of trying to comfort Buffy when there was really nothing she could say or do that would make it all right. But sometimes being a good friend is just that, listening and offering a shoulder (or a knee) to cry on. And Buffy, well, as much as her reaction to finding out she wasn't 'wrong' seemed like the end of the world for her, it actually made me kind of happy. Because what it meant was that what is wrong with Buffy is something that can be fixed. It can be healed. Even the fact that she could cry like that, and have that kind of emotion showing is a sign that the healing might have already begun in subtle ways. It's part of that whole range of human emotions thing that she was having such a hard time with. It sucks that the bad stuff has to come first when the pleasurable stuff Spike is seducing her with seems so much easier. But then, as with the rest of it, that's probably the point.
Ari
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fell
Sassy Eggs
Posts: 586
Registered: Nov 2000 | posted February 06, 2002 01:20
So glad to see Tara back. I'm almost as glad to see a return of the angst and excitement and drama that make this show so great. I didn't have any trouble with the idea of Buffy immediately thinking of Warren when she heard the name Katrina. She knew he was around and trying to make trouble for her, plus she knows he's morally clueless and capable of anything. She also knew the events in the woods were hardly straightforward. We've seen this before: Buffy can completely cloud her own judgement by overreacting and being miss drama queen, then as soon as she starts thinking instead of reacting things immediately become clear. I thought it was very sweet when Buffy came to Tara for help and she was all concerned that Willow might have done something. It showed that Tara's worried about Willow and thinking about her. I just wish they would show them missing each other more. When Oz left Willow was a wreck. It only makes sense that losing the woman she left Oz for would be even harder. I'm hoping that this episode marks the beginning of a W/T arc dealing with their relationship. It was beginning to feel like they're playing down their relationship, just like in some on S5 when they would be in a scene together and hardly acknowledge each other while the other couples were being all couple-y. They run so hot and cold it makes me wonder if some of the writers have trouble writing them. On the magic as addiction metaphor, I've never thought that the solution to Willow's problem was in learning to stay away from magic completely but rather in learning to use it without it controlling her. I think the best thing for her would be to take up magic again, but slowly and carefully. She needs to learn to respect it, not run away from it. [This message has been edited by fell (edited February 06, 2002).] IP: Logged |
xita
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico
Posts: 6974
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted February 06, 2002 01:20
I don't see the parallel between Willow and Warren. If you want to make a parallel you should look at spike and the buffybot. It's trying to have sex with someone who won't have it with you. Angry Tara in All the Way was far from being over with Willow. She was upset at Willow but she hadn't broken up with her. Willow's motivations were not for sexual reasons. The invasion of one's body is something that really can't be compared to anything else. You can see by Tara's reaction to Willow now to know that it was not the same. Oh I am not saying that what Willow did was good or insignificant, I am just saying it's a completely different thing and it's kind of offensive to compare the two. Warren and his buddies who would wish to make women sex slaves deserve a fate worse than death (sorry if I offend any jonathan lovers). Willow's actions did not come from similar intentions. IP: Logged |
Ari
Floating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:20
Oh yeah, I had one more thought. Spike has been trying so hard to get Buffy in touch with her darker side, assuming I guess that is the best way to keep a hold on her. But the thing is that the 'dark side' of the slayer is going to go a heck of a lot deeper than just being into kinky sex. Buffy's a very violent creature by nature. That's just an innate part of what she is. And Spike getting pounded like that is in some ways his reaping what he has sown with Buffy. It reminds me of Dracula and her saying something like "How do you like my darkness now?"
Ari
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fell
Sassy Eggs
Posts: 586
Registered: Nov 2000 | posted February 06, 2002 01:26
But remember, Buffy told her mom that Spike likes getting beaten up: "For him that's like third base." He's much rather have Buffy pounding on him than ignoring him.IP: Logged |
SiWangMu
Blessed Wannabe
Posts: 17
Registered: Feb 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ari:
Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience.
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons. Edited...finally read the FAQ, not sure if I should remove the quote above, leaving it for now, but anyway I had more to say (sorry, y'all).
As far as the parallels between Willow and Warren go, there are ways that the comparison works and ways it doesn't. The point about the sexual motivation is a good one, but I feel there is a comparison to be made in that, unlike Spike's Buffybot, both Warren and Willow actually changed the person they were targeting. Like someone said earlier, "Changing things to their liking," not creating some sort of holodeck effect (which is how I think of Spike's robot). Honestly, the robot is what Jonothan and Andrew, at least, were really looking for. When they found out Katrina and Warren were connected, they reacted with horror, because it made her a real person to them and started to drive home the wrong-ness of their actions. Jonothan and Andrew wanted a robot, but Warren wanted to supernaturally and superficially "fix" his "relationship" with Katrina.
The vital difference, of course, is that Warren is the monster Willow can never be. [This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 06, 2002).] IP: Logged |
Ari
Floating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:29
To me the thing that really clinched a parallel between Willow and Warren was in Tara/Katrina's reactions to it. And I mean that literally. When I heard Katrina's reactions to the nerds there were echoes to the Tabula Rasa scene between Willow and Tara. "What's the matter with you?" And the way they seemed surprised at the idea of being accused of rape, as Willow was when Tara used the word 'violate'. In fact that scene reminded me so much of the TR scene, it literally gave me chills (and not in a good way).
Ari
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cachaco
Doll's Eye Crystal
Posts: 115
Registered: Nov 2001 | posted February 06, 2002 01:36
Hunh, I guess my reaction was a little different than most folks in that I didn't *love* "Dead Things" - I guess I was just disturbed by a lot of it. I was a bit doubtful at first about the suggestion by xita and others that the Big Bad this season may be misogyny, but after this ep, I'm really seeing it. Even having read the wildfeed, I wasn't at all prepared for how intense and awful the Warren/Katrina in the bedroom and B/S in the Bronze scenes were...Spike especially, he was just so malevolent and dominating. He doesn't love her, that was just about power. I've always been one to find Spike's puppy-dog moments endearing, but this really reminded me of how little he's progressed. He can't hurt people because of the chip, so he's trying to take advantage of what little power he does have, just to exert domination over someone...once a vamp, always a vamp, in some important respects.And the troika, what can I say, that was just really gross. I was kinda worried in the beginning 'cause the musical cues in their first workshop scene were all boppingly clarinet-y in that generic "here comes the funny" way, despite the grossness of what they were contriving to do. But then the score was appropriately menacing during the Warren and Katrina scene (*shudder*). I agree that Jonathan was the least enthusiastic at the end, we'll probably likely see a break from him later in the season...I love that he's been on the show since the beginning, it's a weird kind of continuity with his character. But then, lots of Tara goodness. Her scenes were so so strong, and I just love the way she was supportive and non-judgmental in the last scene...she's such a grounding influence for all the scoobies, I'm looking forward to having her around more next week...and the week after, and the week after, and the week after! IP: Logged |
Ari
Floating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 01:37
quote:
Originally posted by SiWangMu:
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons.
I'm not really disputing that. I understand Spike was honestly trying to help, in his own way. All I was really commenting on was the big point that was made about how he couldn't even begin to understand why she would even want or need to try and turn herself in. Even in the way he casually joked about someone he had eaten even in the scene between them at the very beginning, it's pretty clear Spike has no sense of remorse or guilt about taking lives.
Ari
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xita
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico
Posts: 6974
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted February 06, 2002 01:40
quote:
Originally posted by darvangi:
Maudmac: yeah, I got the idea she wished Tara was checking on her, but my first impression was that she was afraid Tara was checking on her because she didn't trust her. I don't know - I can't decide. I hope it's that she was wishing.
Darin I got the feeling that Willow was afraid Tara was checking on her but she was disappointed that Tara wasn't there for her. You know just to see her or talk to her. Tara seemed genuinely happy to see Willow doing better and more importantly she wanted to make sure Willow knew that. sigh. I really can't talk about the other stuff because it is entirely too disturbing, and not really the bs stuff but the Katrina thing. I really am not much for violence against women and their use for strict sexual uses. These guys crossed some serious lines, especially Warren, and there is no love motivation, there is only obsession and sexual compulsion. I am finally glad that they are getting to the issues of bs the last few episodes seem like just a lead up to this. Finally Buffy can face how she really feels and not hide behind the "she came back wrong" excuse. And this doesn't mean that she's going to realize oh she does love him. We'll have to see how it plays out. IP: Logged |
Moonchild
Blessed Wannabe
Posts: 23
Registered: Jan 2002 | posted February 06, 2002 02:18
Can I just stop for a minute and say how terrific the actors on BTVS are? Amber B. can change her smile into so many different shades of feeling: Wistful, sad, proud, supportive, etc. SMG crying at the end and Amber B.'s reaction to it--just stellar acting. So much like it really would be if your ex-partner's best friend who was usually so stoic suddenly started sobbing into your lap.
Although I don't love the B/S stuff, I thought SMG showed just the right amount of helpless disgust and sorrow with herself when Spike was pointing out that he thinks she isn't one of her friends any longer (at the Bronze). I don't know what will happen with the storyline, but it is so intriguing, because Spike loves Buffy's goodness and yet he loves badness (like with Druscilla) too. If Buffy became bad all the way, would he be bored with her? She wouldn't be the same person.
I like the way MT plays her pitifully small amount of lines, and I wish they would give her more to do. It was so sad at the magic shop when they were talking about the type of demon Buffy fought, and Dawn was standing so still and stiff in the background, not part of the group, wondering if she has been able to weather yet another threat of her family being taken away from her.
I think the scene outside the police station with Buffy hitting Spike was truly her hitting rock bottom, and I think that allowed her emotional release with Tara. It was important that they allowed Spike to have a beaten human face in the end, so that Buffy could finally realize that she can hurt him and that she needs to dig herself out of the hole she is in.IP: Logged |
juri-sempai
Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 147
Registered: Nov 2001 | posted February 06, 2002 02:41
I personally cannot see the connection between what Willow did to Tara and what Warren did to Katrina. Sure, both were total misuses of magical power BUT the motivations behind it are totally different.Willow was trying to fix things. That's basically what she's always done with her magic. And she usually goes in head first without giving it any thought. 'I'm a helper. I'm making things better for the people I love.' Bad arguement with Tara, someone she totally loves (and totally loves her, btw)... Tara was pissed off, didn't want to talk about it... and Willow just figured she could fix it like she's always done when her friends were in need. Warren's use of that magic ball thing was entirely selfish and for purely sexual intentions. Plus the fact that he also intended to SHARE her with the other nerds. That's not something you do with someone you love. It was all about control with him... isn't that usually how it is with rapists? Also he felt NO remorse for what he did. 'Oh we killed her. Let's feed her to some demons. Let's blame it on Buffy.' He didn't face up to his mistake. Willow did, when finally confronted with it. When finally she was shown that she wasn't 'fixing' but hurting. She knew what she did was wrong. ------------------
Reincarnation: the futile attempt to get the milk back into the can "I'm a blood-sucking fiend! Look at my outfit!" IP: Logged |
Shaniezak
Gay Now!
Posts: 1239
Registered: Apr 2001 | posted February 06, 2002 02:56
Okay, this is how I see it:For what it's worth, for a while there, Willow and Warren were on pretty parallel tracks. But they've since diverged--Willow's conscious decision to stop abusing her magickal abilities proves that. Warren, on the other hand, has continued to use his abilities to do worse and worse things. Which is a pretty chilling glimpse of the kind of path down which Willow might have gone, had Tara not broken up with her, had she not nearly gotten Dawn killed, had she not had friends to help get her back on track. Demons and hellgods can't be held responsible for all the evil things that happen in the Buffyverse. Some of the most devastating acts in the series' history have happened at the hands of human beings. Every single person can be capable of doing such things--Faith, who became the Mayor's personal hitwoman; Buffy, who went to hunt Faith down with the full knowledge that it would make her a killer. Anyone is capable of it, but each person's own decisions can determine whether or not capability will become fact. There's a line from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (okay, so sue me, I just finished re-reading it) that comes to mind: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Willow chose not to go down that path; Warren's choice, on the other hand, seems to have set him down it irreversibly. ------------------
"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos "Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station IP: Logged |
BBOvenGuy
Strong like an Amazon
Posts: 3370
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted February 06, 2002 02:56
If Willow had gone out and put the forget spell on Tara after Tara had left in order to get Tara back, then it would have been more in line with what Warren did to Katrina. As things turned out, you could argue that Willow was on the road that led to where Warren's going, although much less farther along, but she has now gotten off that road entirely.And hey, I checked out the USEnet tonight - long known as "W/T Hatred Central" - and there was a small chorus of voices saying how great it was to see Tara again and how valuable Tara has become to the gang. I'm seeing Joss's evil plan - first we had OMWF, then Tabula Rasa, and now Dead Things, all giving Tara prominent positive roles to play. It's Joss's evil scheme to win over the masses. I like it! ------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...) "You haven’t seen the last of Tara and Willow, that’s for sure." - Marti Noxon, March 2002 edition of Dreamwatch IP: Logged |
IP: LoggedThe PartymanFloating Rose
Posts: 29
Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:01
That final scene of "Dead Things" was truly brilliant.I take my metaphorical hat off to Amber's acting talent.
IP: Logged
posted February 06, 2002 01:01 That final scene of "Dead Things" was truly brilliant.I take my metaphorical hat off to Amber's acting talent.
IP: LoggedAriFloating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:10
To me, what Dead Things illustrated a very interesting moral point. Anyone can do something bad. Either by accident or by choice, everyone is capable of doing something seriously wrong. And that in the end, it's the reaction to it that defines who that person is.I completely agree that there were some strong parallels between Willow and Warren's actions. Even though Willow's came from a basically good, if arrogant and misguided place, and Warren's came as much from below his waist as beneath his chest. But there are eerie similarities.
Honestly, that bugged me a lot until toward the end of the episode and Buffy and Spike's big 'fight'. And then I understood that importance of the similarities of their actions was in the differences in their reactions. Willow accepted responsibility for what she did (eventually) and understood that she had to let Tara go. More importantly, she felt bad about it. And it seems clear she still does.
It's all about the conscience.
Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience.
The scene at the Bronze demonstrated that pretty clearly. He shows his 'love' by debasing her and trying to alienate her from her friends and the world and sees nothing wrong with it. No matter how pure or real his feelings are, the way he acts on them is always going to be tainted by the fact that he's a soulless demon.
And, of course, my own little happy dance for the reappearance of Tara!
It occured to me, when she was so quick to assume the worst of Willow in the beginning, that while everyone else has been around Willow, seeing the strides she's making and how hard she's fighting, Tara hasn't had that opportunity. All she knows is that the last time someone told her Willow was doing better, the next thing she knew Willow was staying out all night doing spells that left a guy without a mouth, visiting a magick dealer and then nearly got Dawn killed.
I think once she gets a chance to see Willow and be around her more, Tara can get a feel for the changes she's been going through and then can hopefully start to build up a little bit of trust in her again. The fact that there's now a sort of bond with Buffy that'll bring Tara back in closer with the group should really help with that. But Will's got a lot of ground to cover and in keeping with the theme for the season, she's going to have to do it the damn slow way.
As for the Tara/Buffy scenes. Wow. I think Buffy went to the one person who wouldn't judge her and then almost wished she would. And poor Tara being put in the position of trying to comfort Buffy when there was really nothing she could say or do that would make it all right. But sometimes being a good friend is just that, listening and offering a shoulder (or a knee) to cry on.
And Buffy, well, as much as her reaction to finding out she wasn't 'wrong' seemed like the end of the world for her, it actually made me kind of happy. Because what it meant was that what is wrong with Buffy is something that can be fixed. It can be healed.
Even the fact that she could cry like that, and have that kind of emotion showing is a sign that the healing might have already begun in subtle ways. It's part of that whole range of human emotions thing that she was having such a hard time with. It sucks that the bad stuff has to come first when the pleasurable stuff Spike is seducing her with seems so much easier. But then, as with the rest of it, that's probably the point.
Ari
IP: Logged
posted February 06, 2002 01:10 To me, what Dead Things illustrated a very interesting moral point. Anyone can do something bad. Either by accident or by choice, everyone is capable of doing something seriously wrong. And that in the end, it's the reaction to it that defines who that person is.I completely agree that there were some strong parallels between Willow and Warren's actions. Even though Willow's came from a basically good, if arrogant and misguided place, and Warren's came as much from below his waist as beneath his chest. But there are eerie similarities.
Honestly, that bugged me a lot until toward the end of the episode and Buffy and Spike's big 'fight'. And then I understood that importance of the similarities of their actions was in the differences in their reactions. Willow accepted responsibility for what she did (eventually) and understood that she had to let Tara go. More importantly, she felt bad about it. And it seems clear she still does.
It's all about the conscience.
Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience.
The scene at the Bronze demonstrated that pretty clearly. He shows his 'love' by debasing her and trying to alienate her from her friends and the world and sees nothing wrong with it. No matter how pure or real his feelings are, the way he acts on them is always going to be tainted by the fact that he's a soulless demon.
And, of course, my own little happy dance for the reappearance of Tara!
It occured to me, when she was so quick to assume the worst of Willow in the beginning, that while everyone else has been around Willow, seeing the strides she's making and how hard she's fighting, Tara hasn't had that opportunity. All she knows is that the last time someone told her Willow was doing better, the next thing she knew Willow was staying out all night doing spells that left a guy without a mouth, visiting a magick dealer and then nearly got Dawn killed.
I think once she gets a chance to see Willow and be around her more, Tara can get a feel for the changes she's been going through and then can hopefully start to build up a little bit of trust in her again. The fact that there's now a sort of bond with Buffy that'll bring Tara back in closer with the group should really help with that. But Will's got a lot of ground to cover and in keeping with the theme for the season, she's going to have to do it the damn slow way.
As for the Tara/Buffy scenes. Wow. I think Buffy went to the one person who wouldn't judge her and then almost wished she would. And poor Tara being put in the position of trying to comfort Buffy when there was really nothing she could say or do that would make it all right. But sometimes being a good friend is just that, listening and offering a shoulder (or a knee) to cry on.
And Buffy, well, as much as her reaction to finding out she wasn't 'wrong' seemed like the end of the world for her, it actually made me kind of happy. Because what it meant was that what is wrong with Buffy is something that can be fixed. It can be healed.
Even the fact that she could cry like that, and have that kind of emotion showing is a sign that the healing might have already begun in subtle ways. It's part of that whole range of human emotions thing that she was having such a hard time with. It sucks that the bad stuff has to come first when the pleasurable stuff Spike is seducing her with seems so much easier. But then, as with the rest of it, that's probably the point.
Ari
IP: LoggedfellSassy Eggs
Posts: 586
Registered: Nov 2000 posted February 06, 2002 01:20
So glad to see Tara back. I'm almost as glad to see a return of the angst and excitement and drama that make this show so great. I didn't have any trouble with the idea of Buffy immediately thinking of Warren when she heard the name Katrina. She knew he was around and trying to make trouble for her, plus she knows he's morally clueless and capable of anything. She also knew the events in the woods were hardly straightforward.
We've seen this before: Buffy can completely cloud her own judgement by overreacting and being miss drama queen, then as soon as she starts thinking instead of reacting things immediately become clear.
I thought it was very sweet when Buffy came to Tara for help and she was all concerned that Willow might have done something. It showed that Tara's worried about Willow and thinking about her. I just wish they would show them missing each other more. When Oz left Willow was a wreck. It only makes sense that losing the woman she left Oz for would be even harder.
I'm hoping that this episode marks the beginning of a W/T arc dealing with their relationship. It was beginning to feel like they're playing down their relationship, just like in some on S5 when they would be in a scene together and hardly acknowledge each other while the other couples were being all couple-y. They run so hot and cold it makes me wonder if some of the writers have trouble writing them.
On the magic as addiction metaphor, I've never thought that the solution to Willow's problem was in learning to stay away from magic completely but rather in learning to use it without it controlling her. I think the best thing for her would be to take up magic again, but slowly and carefully. She needs to learn to respect it, not run away from it.
[This message has been edited by fell (edited February 06, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted February 06, 2002 01:20 So glad to see Tara back. I'm almost as glad to see a return of the angst and excitement and drama that make this show so great. I didn't have any trouble with the idea of Buffy immediately thinking of Warren when she heard the name Katrina. She knew he was around and trying to make trouble for her, plus she knows he's morally clueless and capable of anything. She also knew the events in the woods were hardly straightforward.
We've seen this before: Buffy can completely cloud her own judgement by overreacting and being miss drama queen, then as soon as she starts thinking instead of reacting things immediately become clear.
I thought it was very sweet when Buffy came to Tara for help and she was all concerned that Willow might have done something. It showed that Tara's worried about Willow and thinking about her. I just wish they would show them missing each other more. When Oz left Willow was a wreck. It only makes sense that losing the woman she left Oz for would be even harder.
I'm hoping that this episode marks the beginning of a W/T arc dealing with their relationship. It was beginning to feel like they're playing down their relationship, just like in some on S5 when they would be in a scene together and hardly acknowledge each other while the other couples were being all couple-y. They run so hot and cold it makes me wonder if some of the writers have trouble writing them.
On the magic as addiction metaphor, I've never thought that the solution to Willow's problem was in learning to stay away from magic completely but rather in learning to use it without it controlling her. I think the best thing for her would be to take up magic again, but slowly and carefully. She needs to learn to respect it, not run away from it.
[This message has been edited by fell (edited February 06, 2002).]
IP: LoggedxitaMs. Moderator
Fantastico
Posts: 6974
Registered: Sep 2000Ms. Moderator
Fantastico posted February 06, 2002 01:20
I don't see the parallel between Willow and Warren. If you want to make a parallel you should look at spike and the buffybot. It's trying to have sex with someone who won't have it with you.
Angry Tara in All the Way was far from being over with Willow. She was upset at Willow but she hadn't broken up with her. Willow's motivations were not for sexual reasons. The invasion of one's body is something that really can't be compared to anything else. You can see by Tara's reaction to Willow now to know that it was not the same. Oh I am not saying that what Willow did was good or insignificant, I am just saying it's a completely different thing and it's kind of offensive to compare the two. Warren and his buddies who would wish to make women sex slaves deserve a fate worse than death (sorry if I offend any jonathan lovers). Willow's actions did not come from similar intentions.
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posted February 06, 2002 01:20 I don't see the parallel between Willow and Warren. If you want to make a parallel you should look at spike and the buffybot. It's trying to have sex with someone who won't have it with you.
Angry Tara in All the Way was far from being over with Willow. She was upset at Willow but she hadn't broken up with her. Willow's motivations were not for sexual reasons. The invasion of one's body is something that really can't be compared to anything else. You can see by Tara's reaction to Willow now to know that it was not the same. Oh I am not saying that what Willow did was good or insignificant, I am just saying it's a completely different thing and it's kind of offensive to compare the two. Warren and his buddies who would wish to make women sex slaves deserve a fate worse than death (sorry if I offend any jonathan lovers). Willow's actions did not come from similar intentions.
IP: LoggedAriFloating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:20
Oh yeah, I had one more thought. Spike has been trying so hard to get Buffy in touch with her darker side, assuming I guess that is the best way to keep a hold on her. But the thing is that the 'dark side' of the slayer is going to go a heck of a lot deeper than just being into kinky sex. Buffy's a very violent creature by nature. That's just an innate part of what she is.
And Spike getting pounded like that is in some ways his reaping what he has sown with Buffy. It reminds me of Dracula and her saying something like "How do you like my darkness now?"
Ari
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posted February 06, 2002 01:20 Oh yeah, I had one more thought. Spike has been trying so hard to get Buffy in touch with her darker side, assuming I guess that is the best way to keep a hold on her. But the thing is that the 'dark side' of the slayer is going to go a heck of a lot deeper than just being into kinky sex. Buffy's a very violent creature by nature. That's just an innate part of what she is.
And Spike getting pounded like that is in some ways his reaping what he has sown with Buffy. It reminds me of Dracula and her saying something like "How do you like my darkness now?"
Ari
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Registered: Nov 2000 posted February 06, 2002 01:26
But remember, Buffy told her mom that Spike likes getting beaten up: "For him that's like third base." He's much rather have Buffy pounding on him than ignoring him.IP: Logged
posted February 06, 2002 01:26 But remember, Buffy told her mom that Spike likes getting beaten up: "For him that's like third base." He's much rather have Buffy pounding on him than ignoring him.IP: LoggedSiWangMuBlessed Wannabe
Posts: 17
Registered: Feb 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ari:
Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience.
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons.
Edited...finally read the FAQ, not sure if I should remove the quote above, leaving it for now, but anyway I had more to say (sorry, y'all).
As far as the parallels between Willow and Warren go, there are ways that the comparison works and ways it doesn't. The point about the sexual motivation is a good one, but I feel there is a comparison to be made in that, unlike Spike's Buffybot, both Warren and Willow actually changed the person they were targeting. Like someone said earlier, "Changing things to their liking," not creating some sort of holodeck effect (which is how I think of Spike's robot). Honestly, the robot is what Jonothan and Andrew, at least, were really looking for. When they found out Katrina and Warren were connected, they reacted with horror, because it made her a real person to them and started to drive home the wrong-ness of their actions. Jonothan and Andrew wanted a robot, but Warren wanted to supernaturally and superficially "fix" his "relationship" with Katrina.
The vital difference, of course, is that Warren is the monster Willow can never be.
[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 06, 2002).]
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posted February 06, 2002 01:28 quote:
Originally posted by Ari:
Why was it the big alley scene that made me think about that? Because that's exactly what Spike didn't, and couldn't, understand about Buffy's reaction and her need to turn herself in. Her guilt, her conscience demanded it. How could Spike understand that? He doesn't have a conscience.
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons.
Edited...finally read the FAQ, not sure if I should remove the quote above, leaving it for now, but anyway I had more to say (sorry, y'all).
As far as the parallels between Willow and Warren go, there are ways that the comparison works and ways it doesn't. The point about the sexual motivation is a good one, but I feel there is a comparison to be made in that, unlike Spike's Buffybot, both Warren and Willow actually changed the person they were targeting. Like someone said earlier, "Changing things to their liking," not creating some sort of holodeck effect (which is how I think of Spike's robot). Honestly, the robot is what Jonothan and Andrew, at least, were really looking for. When they found out Katrina and Warren were connected, they reacted with horror, because it made her a real person to them and started to drive home the wrong-ness of their actions. Jonothan and Andrew wanted a robot, but Warren wanted to supernaturally and superficially "fix" his "relationship" with Katrina.
The vital difference, of course, is that Warren is the monster Willow can never be.
[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 06, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedAriFloating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:29
To me the thing that really clinched a parallel between Willow and Warren was in Tara/Katrina's reactions to it. And I mean that literally. When I heard Katrina's reactions to the nerds there were echoes to the Tabula Rasa scene between Willow and Tara.
"What's the matter with you?"
And the way they seemed surprised at the idea of being accused of rape, as Willow was when Tara used the word 'violate'.
In fact that scene reminded me so much of the TR scene, it literally gave me chills (and not in a good way).
Ari
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posted February 06, 2002 01:29 To me the thing that really clinched a parallel between Willow and Warren was in Tara/Katrina's reactions to it. And I mean that literally. When I heard Katrina's reactions to the nerds there were echoes to the Tabula Rasa scene between Willow and Tara.
"What's the matter with you?"
And the way they seemed surprised at the idea of being accused of rape, as Willow was when Tara used the word 'violate'.
In fact that scene reminded me so much of the TR scene, it literally gave me chills (and not in a good way).
Ari
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Registered: Nov 2001 posted February 06, 2002 01:36
Hunh, I guess my reaction was a little different than most folks in that I didn't *love* "Dead Things" - I guess I was just disturbed by a lot of it. I was a bit doubtful at first about the suggestion by xita and others that the Big Bad this season may be misogyny, but after this ep, I'm really seeing it. Even having read the wildfeed, I wasn't at all prepared for how intense and awful the Warren/Katrina in the bedroom and B/S in the Bronze scenes were...Spike especially, he was just so malevolent and dominating. He doesn't love her, that was just about power. I've always been one to find Spike's puppy-dog moments endearing, but this really reminded me of how little he's progressed. He can't hurt people because of the chip, so he's trying to take advantage of what little power he does have, just to exert domination over someone...once a vamp, always a vamp, in some important respects.And the troika, what can I say, that was just really gross. I was kinda worried in the beginning 'cause the musical cues in their first workshop scene were all boppingly clarinet-y in that generic "here comes the funny" way, despite the grossness of what they were contriving to do. But then the score was appropriately menacing during the Warren and Katrina scene (*shudder*). I agree that Jonathan was the least enthusiastic at the end, we'll probably likely see a break from him later in the season...I love that he's been on the show since the beginning, it's a weird kind of continuity with his character.
But then, lots of Tara goodness. Her scenes were so so strong, and I just love the way she was supportive and non-judgmental in the last scene...she's such a grounding influence for all the scoobies, I'm looking forward to having her around more next week...and the week after, and the week after, and the week after!
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posted February 06, 2002 01:36 Hunh, I guess my reaction was a little different than most folks in that I didn't *love* "Dead Things" - I guess I was just disturbed by a lot of it. I was a bit doubtful at first about the suggestion by xita and others that the Big Bad this season may be misogyny, but after this ep, I'm really seeing it. Even having read the wildfeed, I wasn't at all prepared for how intense and awful the Warren/Katrina in the bedroom and B/S in the Bronze scenes were...Spike especially, he was just so malevolent and dominating. He doesn't love her, that was just about power. I've always been one to find Spike's puppy-dog moments endearing, but this really reminded me of how little he's progressed. He can't hurt people because of the chip, so he's trying to take advantage of what little power he does have, just to exert domination over someone...once a vamp, always a vamp, in some important respects.And the troika, what can I say, that was just really gross. I was kinda worried in the beginning 'cause the musical cues in their first workshop scene were all boppingly clarinet-y in that generic "here comes the funny" way, despite the grossness of what they were contriving to do. But then the score was appropriately menacing during the Warren and Katrina scene (*shudder*). I agree that Jonathan was the least enthusiastic at the end, we'll probably likely see a break from him later in the season...I love that he's been on the show since the beginning, it's a weird kind of continuity with his character.
But then, lots of Tara goodness. Her scenes were so so strong, and I just love the way she was supportive and non-judgmental in the last scene...she's such a grounding influence for all the scoobies, I'm looking forward to having her around more next week...and the week after, and the week after, and the week after!
IP: LoggedAriFloating Rose
Posts: 41
Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 01:37
quote:
Originally posted by SiWangMu:
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons.
I'm not really disputing that. I understand Spike was honestly trying to help, in his own way.
All I was really commenting on was the big point that was made about how he couldn't even begin to understand why she would even want or need to try and turn herself in. Even in the way he casually joked about someone he had eaten even in the scene between them at the very beginning, it's pretty clear Spike has no sense of remorse or guilt about taking lives.
Ari
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posted February 06, 2002 01:37 quote:
Originally posted by SiWangMu:
I hope this isn't off-topic, but I just wanted to comment: My impression was that Spike does understand why she wants to turn herself in, he's just not willing to let her commit a more-or-less self-destructive act. It may not have been the right thing for him to do, but I don't think there is right or wrong for Spike. All I can tell is that what he did in the alley, to persuade her, distract her, just stop her from taking herself away, he did for the right reasons.
I'm not really disputing that. I understand Spike was honestly trying to help, in his own way.
All I was really commenting on was the big point that was made about how he couldn't even begin to understand why she would even want or need to try and turn herself in. Even in the way he casually joked about someone he had eaten even in the scene between them at the very beginning, it's pretty clear Spike has no sense of remorse or guilt about taking lives.
Ari
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Fantastico
Posts: 6974
Registered: Sep 2000Ms. Moderator
Fantastico posted February 06, 2002 01:40
quote:
Originally posted by darvangi:
Maudmac: yeah, I got the idea she wished Tara was checking on her, but my first impression was that she was afraid Tara was checking on her because she didn't trust her. I don't know - I can't decide. I hope it's that she was wishing.
Darin I got the feeling that Willow was afraid Tara was checking on her but she was disappointed that Tara wasn't there for her. You know just to see her or talk to her. Tara seemed genuinely happy to see Willow doing better and more importantly she wanted to make sure Willow knew that. sigh.
I really can't talk about the other stuff because it is entirely too disturbing, and not really the bs stuff but the Katrina thing. I really am not much for violence against women and their use for strict sexual uses. These guys crossed some serious lines, especially Warren, and there is no love motivation, there is only obsession and sexual compulsion. I am finally glad that they are getting to the issues of bs the last few episodes seem like just a lead up to this. Finally Buffy can face how she really feels and not hide behind the "she came back wrong" excuse. And this doesn't mean that she's going to realize oh she does love him. We'll have to see how it plays out.
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posted February 06, 2002 01:40 quote:
Originally posted by darvangi:
Maudmac: yeah, I got the idea she wished Tara was checking on her, but my first impression was that she was afraid Tara was checking on her because she didn't trust her. I don't know - I can't decide. I hope it's that she was wishing.
Darin I got the feeling that Willow was afraid Tara was checking on her but she was disappointed that Tara wasn't there for her. You know just to see her or talk to her. Tara seemed genuinely happy to see Willow doing better and more importantly she wanted to make sure Willow knew that. sigh.
I really can't talk about the other stuff because it is entirely too disturbing, and not really the bs stuff but the Katrina thing. I really am not much for violence against women and their use for strict sexual uses. These guys crossed some serious lines, especially Warren, and there is no love motivation, there is only obsession and sexual compulsion. I am finally glad that they are getting to the issues of bs the last few episodes seem like just a lead up to this. Finally Buffy can face how she really feels and not hide behind the "she came back wrong" excuse. And this doesn't mean that she's going to realize oh she does love him. We'll have to see how it plays out.
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Registered: Jan 2002 posted February 06, 2002 02:18
Can I just stop for a minute and say how terrific the actors on BTVS are? Amber B. can change her smile into so many different shades of feeling: Wistful, sad, proud, supportive, etc. SMG crying at the end and Amber B.'s reaction to it--just stellar acting. So much like it really would be if your ex-partner's best friend who was usually so stoic suddenly started sobbing into your lap.
Although I don't love the B/S stuff, I thought SMG showed just the right amount of helpless disgust and sorrow with herself when Spike was pointing out that he thinks she isn't one of her friends any longer (at the Bronze). I don't know what will happen with the storyline, but it is so intriguing, because Spike loves Buffy's goodness and yet he loves badness (like with Druscilla) too. If Buffy became bad all the way, would he be bored with her? She wouldn't be the same person.
I like the way MT plays her pitifully small amount of lines, and I wish they would give her more to do. It was so sad at the magic shop when they were talking about the type of demon Buffy fought, and Dawn was standing so still and stiff in the background, not part of the group, wondering if she has been able to weather yet another threat of her family being taken away from her.
I think the scene outside the police station with Buffy hitting Spike was truly her hitting rock bottom, and I think that allowed her emotional release with Tara. It was important that they allowed Spike to have a beaten human face in the end, so that Buffy could finally realize that she can hurt him and that she needs to dig herself out of the hole she is in.IP: Logged
posted February 06, 2002 02:18 Can I just stop for a minute and say how terrific the actors on BTVS are? Amber B. can change her smile into so many different shades of feeling: Wistful, sad, proud, supportive, etc. SMG crying at the end and Amber B.'s reaction to it--just stellar acting. So much like it really would be if your ex-partner's best friend who was usually so stoic suddenly started sobbing into your lap.
Although I don't love the B/S stuff, I thought SMG showed just the right amount of helpless disgust and sorrow with herself when Spike was pointing out that he thinks she isn't one of her friends any longer (at the Bronze). I don't know what will happen with the storyline, but it is so intriguing, because Spike loves Buffy's goodness and yet he loves badness (like with Druscilla) too. If Buffy became bad all the way, would he be bored with her? She wouldn't be the same person.
I like the way MT plays her pitifully small amount of lines, and I wish they would give her more to do. It was so sad at the magic shop when they were talking about the type of demon Buffy fought, and Dawn was standing so still and stiff in the background, not part of the group, wondering if she has been able to weather yet another threat of her family being taken away from her.
I think the scene outside the police station with Buffy hitting Spike was truly her hitting rock bottom, and I think that allowed her emotional release with Tara. It was important that they allowed Spike to have a beaten human face in the end, so that Buffy could finally realize that she can hurt him and that she needs to dig herself out of the hole she is in.IP: Loggedjuri-sempaiCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 147
Registered: Nov 2001 posted February 06, 2002 02:41
I personally cannot see the connection between what Willow did to Tara and what Warren did to Katrina. Sure, both were total misuses of magical power BUT the motivations behind it are totally different.Willow was trying to fix things. That's basically what she's always done with her magic. And she usually goes in head first without giving it any thought. 'I'm a helper. I'm making things better for the people I love.' Bad arguement with Tara, someone she totally loves (and totally loves her, btw)... Tara was pissed off, didn't want to talk about it... and Willow just figured she could fix it like she's always done when her friends were in need.
Warren's use of that magic ball thing was entirely selfish and for purely sexual intentions. Plus the fact that he also intended to SHARE her with the other nerds. That's not something you do with someone you love. It was all about control with him... isn't that usually how it is with rapists? Also he felt NO remorse for what he did. 'Oh we killed her. Let's feed her to some demons. Let's blame it on Buffy.'
He didn't face up to his mistake. Willow did, when finally confronted with it. When finally she was shown that she wasn't 'fixing' but hurting. She knew what she did was wrong.
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posted February 06, 2002 02:41 I personally cannot see the connection between what Willow did to Tara and what Warren did to Katrina. Sure, both were total misuses of magical power BUT the motivations behind it are totally different.Willow was trying to fix things. That's basically what she's always done with her magic. And she usually goes in head first without giving it any thought. 'I'm a helper. I'm making things better for the people I love.' Bad arguement with Tara, someone she totally loves (and totally loves her, btw)... Tara was pissed off, didn't want to talk about it... and Willow just figured she could fix it like she's always done when her friends were in need.
Warren's use of that magic ball thing was entirely selfish and for purely sexual intentions. Plus the fact that he also intended to SHARE her with the other nerds. That's not something you do with someone you love. It was all about control with him... isn't that usually how it is with rapists? Also he felt NO remorse for what he did. 'Oh we killed her. Let's feed her to some demons. Let's blame it on Buffy.'
He didn't face up to his mistake. Willow did, when finally confronted with it. When finally she was shown that she wasn't 'fixing' but hurting. She knew what she did was wrong.
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Reincarnation: the futile attempt to get the milk back into the can
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Registered: Apr 2001 posted February 06, 2002 02:56
Okay, this is how I see it:For what it's worth, for a while there, Willow and Warren were on pretty parallel tracks. But they've since diverged--Willow's conscious decision to stop abusing her magickal abilities proves that. Warren, on the other hand, has continued to use his abilities to do worse and worse things.
Which is a pretty chilling glimpse of the kind of path down which Willow might have gone, had Tara not broken up with her, had she not nearly gotten Dawn killed, had she not had friends to help get her back on track.
Demons and hellgods can't be held responsible for all the evil things that happen in the Buffyverse. Some of the most devastating acts in the series' history have happened at the hands of human beings. Every single person can be capable of doing such things--Faith, who became the Mayor's personal hitwoman; Buffy, who went to hunt Faith down with the full knowledge that it would make her a killer. Anyone is capable of it, but each person's own decisions can determine whether or not capability will become fact.
There's a line from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (okay, so sue me, I just finished re-reading it) that comes to mind: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Willow chose not to go down that path; Warren's choice, on the other hand, seems to have set him down it irreversibly.
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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
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posted February 06, 2002 02:56 Okay, this is how I see it:For what it's worth, for a while there, Willow and Warren were on pretty parallel tracks. But they've since diverged--Willow's conscious decision to stop abusing her magickal abilities proves that. Warren, on the other hand, has continued to use his abilities to do worse and worse things.
Which is a pretty chilling glimpse of the kind of path down which Willow might have gone, had Tara not broken up with her, had she not nearly gotten Dawn killed, had she not had friends to help get her back on track.
Demons and hellgods can't be held responsible for all the evil things that happen in the Buffyverse. Some of the most devastating acts in the series' history have happened at the hands of human beings. Every single person can be capable of doing such things--Faith, who became the Mayor's personal hitwoman; Buffy, who went to hunt Faith down with the full knowledge that it would make her a killer. Anyone is capable of it, but each person's own decisions can determine whether or not capability will become fact.
There's a line from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (okay, so sue me, I just finished re-reading it) that comes to mind: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Willow chose not to go down that path; Warren's choice, on the other hand, seems to have set him down it irreversibly.
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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos
"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station
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Registered: Sep 2000 posted February 06, 2002 02:56
If Willow had gone out and put the forget spell on Tara after Tara had left in order to get Tara back, then it would have been more in line with what Warren did to Katrina. As things turned out, you could argue that Willow was on the road that led to where Warren's going, although much less farther along, but she has now gotten off that road entirely.And hey, I checked out the USEnet tonight - long known as "W/T Hatred Central" - and there was a small chorus of voices saying how great it was to see Tara again and how valuable Tara has become to the gang. I'm seeing Joss's evil plan - first we had OMWF, then Tabula Rasa, and now Dead Things, all giving Tara prominent positive roles to play. It's Joss's evil scheme to win over the masses. I like it!
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
"You haven’t seen the last of Tara and Willow, that’s for sure." - Marti Noxon, March 2002 edition of Dreamwatch
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posted February 06, 2002 02:56 If Willow had gone out and put the forget spell on Tara after Tara had left in order to get Tara back, then it would have been more in line with what Warren did to Katrina. As things turned out, you could argue that Willow was on the road that led to where Warren's going, although much less farther along, but she has now gotten off that road entirely.And hey, I checked out the USEnet tonight - long known as "W/T Hatred Central" - and there was a small chorus of voices saying how great it was to see Tara again and how valuable Tara has become to the gang. I'm seeing Joss's evil plan - first we had OMWF, then Tabula Rasa, and now Dead Things, all giving Tara prominent positive roles to play. It's Joss's evil scheme to win over the masses. I like it!
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
"You haven’t seen the last of Tara and Willow, that’s for sure." - Marti Noxon, March 2002 edition of Dreamwatch
b:: Buffy!