by SpookyKitty » Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:59 am
by kitten scout » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:16 am
[This message has been edited by kitten scout (edited February 12, 2002).]
by imperfectly » Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:46 pm
Sure, their performance might have been more technically difficult. BUT, there were mistakes. And, the performance just wasn’t as inspired. It lacked something. That intangible something that put Tara Lipinksi’s flawless performance over Michelle Kwan’s equally flawless one four years ago. Skating isn’t about jumps and throws. It’s about artistry, showmanship and how well you do on any given night.
And that night, that night belonged to the Canadians.
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Well, now that came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head.
by Artemisia » Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:05 pm
I think his quote is very interesting. I think they have behaved very admirably & not played politics or spoken ill of anyone at all, despite their being dissapointed.
I agree with people thinking its politcal-
However, congrats to the other kitties whose countrymen& women have won!!! yay for ya'll! Yay to the Dutch & German kitties for setting World Records in speed skating! The Swiss kid was so adorable(someone compared him to Harry Potter & he did kind of look like it."
by Artemisia » Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:26 pm
[This message has been edited by Artemisia (edited February 12, 2002).]
by grifter » Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:42 pm
But, I have to add, I have a little celebrity-crush on Goetschl. She´s cute and funny and very nice and I adore her. And she still has two chances to win gold!
Wanted to add that I´m watching the analysis of the downhill race. It´s pretty fascinating, they cut two racers together so you can compare them and this amazing ex-racer Assinger explains the differences between them in a way even a dofus like I understand. I have kind of a trained eye by now from watching him.
[This message has been edited by grifter (edited February 12, 2002).]
by drlloyd11 » Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:49 pm
quote:quote:
Originally posted by kitten scout:
The Canadian skaters should have won the gold. I heard this morning that Russia has won the gold in pairs skating since 1964. It's time the judges stopped taking it for granted that Russia would have a gold medal preformance and start really paying attention to other countries![This message has been edited by kitten scout (edited February 12, 2002).]
by BBOvenGuy » Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:00 pm
quote:
Following the reaction of the public and the media to the results of the pairs event at the Salt Lake Ice Center last night, and to respect public opinion, the ISU is doing an internal assessment to monitor if the ISU rules and procedures have been respected.Any further comment will be given when appropriate.
We'll see what happens, although personally I doubt very much will come of it.
Meanwhile, Picabo Street didn't get a medal in the Women's Downhill, but at least she finished it. Considering what she had to go through just to be there, I'd say that counts as victory enough.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
by Kalita » Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
We'll see what happens, although personally I doubt very much will come of it.
The CBC olympic desk anchor, Brian Williams, put it thus: "It's like asking Enron to do an internal audit."
I kind of hope the ISU does chicken out and say they find nothing; then the IOC may be forced to step in and look for themselves.
This crap has to stop, one way or another.
quote:by Bobo's Mom » Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:55 pm
First, a common misconseption to address - The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
But what are they judged on? 1st mark(Tech.)= Difficulty/ Variety/ Cleanness & sureness of skating – not just in the tricks, but in how they are tied together. 2nd mark (Presentation) = Composition as a whole & how it relates to music/Speed/ Use of ice surface/Carriage, style, ease & sureness of motion with music/ Expression of character of the music/originality/unison.
My take on last night? In the tech scores - B/S were superior in Difficulty/Variety, S/P in Cleanness/Sureness. In the presentation scores – B/S were superior in speed/use of ice surface/ originality/ unison. S/P were superior in composition/carriage/expression of the music.
Which means, if I were a judge, I would have placed the Russians slightly higher. Sometimes, the emotional skate is not the best one when judged by established criteria. That’s why skating is a sport. Should anyone wish to know how I came to my conclusions, I’m more than happy to share more about the details of the programs, here or via e-mail. My heart loved the Canadians, but my head says the best program won.
Respectfully,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
by lurker1.0 » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:08 pm
The simple fact here is the Canadian team won the gold medal, but due to politics that take place in the world of figure skating, they aren't allowed to wear it.
Edited to add:
I think it was S/P's coach who said this but I might be wrong.
"They were in perfect sync with eachother, with the ice, and with the music."
And that's why they deserved to win.
[This message has been edited by lurker1.0 (edited February 12, 2002).]
by BBOvenGuy » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:18 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bobo's Mom:
The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
Well, that would be the first thing I'd change right there.
Other events in the Olympics have judges, too. Snowboarding, freestyle skiing, even ski jumping does, although I've never understood that one. In the summer games you have diving and gymnastics, too. And yet figure skating is the only event that seems to have these "judging controversies," and it has them all the time. That suggests to me that the ISU is doing something wrong.
If the problem is cultural - the ballet style of the Russians vs. the more free-form Western style - then some standards have to be established which minimize any sources of bias. Everyone has to be judging from the same rule book. Until that happens, you might as well not have the events at all - you can just hand the medals out to the people who are going to win anyway and be done with it.
My main concern is that there's going to be a backlash in the other figure skating events - that is to say, I worry that the "Eastern Bloc" will adopt some kind of seige mentality and favor all "their" skaters in the other divisions of the event as a way of justifying themselves. I already feel like Michelle Kwan deserved the gold medal in 1998, and I would hate to see her robbed again. Don't get me wrong - I like Irina Slutskaya too, but whichever of them wins - or anyone else, for that matter - I want her to win fair and square.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 12, 2002).]
quote:by JJ » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:51 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Well, that would be the first thing I'd change right there.Other events in the Olympics have judges, too. Snowboarding, freestyle skiing, even ski jumping does, although I've never understood that one. In the summer games you have diving and gymnastics, too. And yet figure skating is the only event that seems to have these "judging controversies," and it has them all the time. That suggests to me that the ISU is doing something wrong.
quote:
If the problem is cultural - the ballet style of the Russians vs. the more free-form Western style - then some standards have to be established which minimize any sources of bias. Everyone has to be judging from the same rule book. Until that happens, you might as well not have the events at all - you can just hand the medals out to the people who are going to win anyway and be done with it.
quote:
My main concern is that there's going to be a backlash in the other figure skating events - that is to say, I worry that the "Eastern Bloc" will adopt some kind of seige mentality and favor all "their" skaters in the other divisions of the event as a way of justifying themselves. I already feel like Michelle Kwan deserved the gold medal in 1998, and I would hate to see her robbed again. Don't get me wrong - I like Irina Slutskaya too, but whichever of them wins - or anyone else, for that matter - I want her to win fair and square.
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Amberholic #1969
Keeper of the kitten spirit that lies in us all
Keeper of the fluffy pink rhinos (don't ask)
The 100th Light for Tara
Bardlet #15 (thanx Angie)
President of Guys Who Love Willow & Tara Fan Club
"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand."
from 'Witch Hunt' by Rush
by imperfectly » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:54 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
I already feel like Michelle Kwan deserved the gold medal in 1998, and I would hate to see her robbed again.
Oh good. I totally thought Michelle was robbed, too.
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Well, now that came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head.
by BBOvenGuy » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:58 pm
quote:
Originally posted by JJ:
We are, what, a decade removed from the Cold War, and people still bring this up? Sheesh!
Well, yes they do... but I wasn't trying to be one of them.
Note that I said there were cultural differences. Even though the old Eastern Bloc is no longer politically opposed to the West, there are still cultural differences, which plays even more into matters of taste, which is where the problem with the judging appears to lie.
by Wiccagrrl » Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:13 pm
quote:
We are, what, a decade removed from the Cold War, and people still bring this up? Sheesh!
BTW, I wasn't able to see any of the performances on account of work, so I couldn't judge for myself who deserved the gold more. I just hope the next Olympics will have this type of controversy absent.
BTW, for those interested in how the voting broke down:
Judges from Russia, China, Poland, Ukraine and France placed the Russians first; judges from the United States, Canada, Germany and Japan gave the nod to Sale and Pelletier.
Not sure I think it's so strange to read a somewhat geopolitical bias/split into the voting. But who paid off the French judge? (kidding, btw)
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Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bobo's Mom:
Wow, I’m in the minority here, but a good debate never hurt anyone! I’m more than happy to take it over to e-mail if everyone should tire of the non-W/T goodness, but responding will help fill the time before Buffy tonight. Consider it my small attempt to explain the mysteries of figure skating judging for greater enjoyment over the next few weeks. I love this sport, and have watched it for years, and understand how things are sometimes not what they seem.First, a common misconseption to address - The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
But what are they judged on? 1st mark(Tech.)= Difficulty/ Variety/ Cleanness & sureness of skating – not just in the tricks, but in how they are tied together. 2nd mark (Presentation) = Composition as a whole & how it relates to music/Speed/ Use of ice surface/Carriage, style, ease & sureness of motion with music/ Expression of character of the music/originality/unison.
My take on last night? In the tech scores - B/S were superior in Difficulty/Variety, S/P in Cleanness/Sureness. In the presentation scores – B/S were superior in speed/use of ice surface/ originality/ unison. S/P were superior in composition/carriage/expression of the music.
Which means, if I were a judge, I would have placed the Russians slightly higher. Sometimes, the emotional skate is not the best one when judged by established criteria. That’s why skating is a sport. Should anyone wish to know how I came to my conclusions, I’m more than happy to share more about the details of the programs, here or via e-mail. My heart loved the Canadians, but my head says the best program won.
Respectfully,
BM
Well I don't think it's necassary to go to e-mail. This is the OT thread for the Olympics. Well, everyone has made the same points I would have, so I agree with the points made. If you don't take into account the communist block, the fact that Russia has been the champion for decades, the fact that the Canadians have been robbed of the gold before, then re-read what Imperfectly said. She's right, it's about artistry. Just like dance, afterall it's dancing on ice. Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
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Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
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quote:
Originally posted by SpookyKitty:
Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
The American media also tells me that I love President Bush without question, enjoy tabloid television, and get fashion tips from Sex and the City. I’m not that trusting of the American media.
What happened in the long program was a virtual replay of Gordeeva/Grinkov from 1994, except that year, Grinkov made two errors within an otherwise superior program when the 2nd and 3rd place team skated less difficult programs perfectly. To the casual observer, they did not deserve the gold medal. However, the quality of everything they did, outside of Grinkov’s two jumping errors, was so high, and so complex, that their victory was clear upon reflection. (They were, in fact, booed while recieving their medals). That year, the TV commentary did a great job explaining why they won that made sense within the context of the rules of the sport. Maybe it was because of the tape delay that. What a shame that the casual skating public was not given the same insights this time. All the judges, no matter who they thought was the victor, placed them as close as you can.
As I said in my previous post, this was as close as you can get, and I’m not a fan of either team! The only skater I’m rooting for actively is Michelle Kwan, who WAS robbed 4 years ago. And in spite of what the commentary says, BOTH pairs made minor errors. B/S missed the landing on a jump. S/P lost synchronization on their 1st pair spin. B/S hung on to a throw triple salcow landing. S/P did crossovers while vamping for 15 seconds. And both did elements beautifully. I don’t know if anyone wants to follow figure skating beyond these two weeks, but a good exercise is to watch without sound or music. You learn to pick out small errors as well as extraordinary elements, like speed, and quality of edging, that sometimes are the only things that set the top skaters apart.
Not wishing to monopolize the thread, let me say this to move things along: Now the men’s judging was right on tonight! And a new Buffy to boot! (Why do I have a feeling that Willow would intellectualize skating as such as I do, while Tara would go with her gut?)
Best wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
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I find that when the Russian did the 2nd jump, over rotated and double footed, that was a critical error. He almost fell. And talk about out of synch? the Russians there. I'll check back there is one scene where they are turning and they are not in synch at all. And their death spiral wasn't low enough. And He didn't catch her fast enough. When landing she wobbled each time. The whole presentation wasn't their best, at all. Now take the Canadians. Umm...I keep replaying it and I'm not seeing where they're out of synch. But what I did see was the Canadians giving a performance, keeping in rhythm, landing solidly on all jumps, and doing it with enthusiasm. So I'm still wondering here where the Canadians were worse? Um..ok, so the American media is so horrible. I suppose everyone else is foolish for all of this controversy. I mean you take the greatest choreographer in the world, ex-gold medal champion, Victor Gusev (Reporter for the Russian Olympic coverage) and many of us millions of "casual viewers" who all strongly believe the Canadians were robbed. I guess we should watch with the music off, then, eh?
[This message has been edited by SpookyKitty (edited February 13, 2002).]
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Sigh. I haven't watched tonight's BUFFY yet so I am sublimating by posting like mad in all the other threads.
And for the record, while I have heard many many in-depth lectures from my sister/Bobo's mom on this topic I have to say that I thought the Canadians deserved the gold and there's something very strange about a sport where the public can have such a vastly different perception than the judges. If this is the case perhaps we should all receive in-depth skating tutorials before every competition...
And also, my sister has been trained to judge regional/smaller skating competitions. She reviewed the tape last night and admitted that while she won't start screaming bloody murder, she was a little perplexed. (But she did say that you can't judge speed through the TV -- and that the Russians are faster as she's seen them live -- and that their program was technically harder. Also, she thinks the Canadian team erred in going back to the Love Story program -- an old one for them -- rather than their newer Rachmaninoff which may be more old stodgy judge-friendly and a little harder). My intellectual response? Poo poo.
[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 13, 2002).]
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Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
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Things may get even uglier if the stories about the French Judge and vote trading have any truth to them.
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On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"
[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
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quote:
Originally posted by judy:
I have been fascinated to hear some of this elusive and erudite technical stuff from my sister but I do think there's a contempt and patronizing attitude from "officials" that can only exacerbate tensions and tarnish people's interest in figure skating.
According to the writers at MSNBC (who now have several articles up on the subject), there has been talk of booting Ice Dancing out of the Olympics entirely, on the grounds that the winners are determined before the event and therefore what we see is more exhibition than competition. Maybe that would get some people's attention.
Then again, it might also get the ISU's attention if people started comparing their events to Pro Wrestling. Come to think of it, there's a thought. They can call it "ISU Smackdown!" and have a three-round tag-team contest to decide who gets the gold medal. Too bad I'm not an editorial cartoonist...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
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The Chinese skated with such grace and power, it was a shame she missed that landing (i believe he also made an error in a jump as well).
I don't want to get into the whole Russian/Canadian thing really, i just wanted to give my $0.02 on what i thought was a really good performance.
My heart broke for Todd Eldridge tonight. Does anyone know when the Men's Long program is on?
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I'd heard what the judges did but didn;t get to see the program till yesterday afternoon and was blown away by how blind the judges could be. Not being a figure skating person myself I of course couldn't go into details but it seems to me they(the judges) made a gross mistake on awarding the medal to the Russians.
Hope someone looks into this and ppl are questioned,I read in the sports section this morning that the guy on the Candaian team may retire from the sport give what happend last night;how &(())Y^%^ is that??? just toss in the towel like that cause some dim whitted judges didn't see what was looking them right in the face.
Anyone know when women's ice hockey is going to be shown???
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"My heart doesn't stutter" -Tara
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The referee of the event (I don't know what a referee does in figure skating, but apparently they have one) has filed a letter with the ISU, detailing "irregularities" he saw in the judging. The referee, by the way, is an American. Meanwhile, the Toronto Globe and Mail has published a report claiming there was collusion among the judges to fix the results of the pairs competition as a trade off for other fixed results in the ice dancing competition. ESPN is saying the same thing.
The ISU says they're making an inquiry, but there's probably nothing they can do to overturn the results from Monday night - which is about what I expected them to say. It will be interesting to see how the ice dancing results turn out.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
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On the icky note, the same judges who did the pairs are going to judge ice dancing, so that should be interesting.
Anyone know whether the German women won luge? or is that tonight
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It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since.
Miss Bates(emma 2)
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quote:
Originally posted by Pixie:
On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
As I laugh my head off (thanks why the way) I can’t help but wonder what music Spike would chose for his long program. For some reason, Nine Inch Nails comes to mind!!
Now, to reply to my critics. My attempts here have been in the interest of supplying a different point of view. Should it not be welcomed, I’m more than happy to sit in the corner and not take part in the conversation, or stick to the figure skating boards with my observations (even thought they kind of frighten me with their frame by frame breakdowns of all competitors).
Differences of opinion happen within the judges corps and among the viewing public all the time. All of the judges placed the pairs as close as close can be, a fact that’s getting lost within this debate, both here, and in the media. Three of the judges placed B/S in first, by a slight margin. Four of the judges placed S/P in first, by a slight margin. Two of the judges tied them statistically, but gave slightly higher presentation marks to B/S, which broke the tie in their favor. Throughout this conversation, the major point I have been trying to make has been how very, very close this was, and that it could have gone either way on any judge’s score card. To me, this says that I watched one of the best Olympic Pairs finals ever. The only thing that pushes my buttons was the horrid commentary from the other night that quickly snowballed into a major controversy. A shame, when you think that all nine judges placed the two teams in question a hair’s width apart. It's my feeling that the inquiry will show nothing when I consider this fact. (And my faith in human nature hopes this to be the case).
Anyway, on a realistic note, look at it this way – the Canadian couple will end up being far wealthier in the long run because of this result. Had they just won the gold medal, they would have looked forward to a professional career of some note, perhaps touring with Hamilton’s Stars on Ice. With this controversy, they will have a long, successful and memorable love affair with the North American public that will result in sponsorships, commercials, endorsement deals, etc. They have become household names in a way that they wouldn’t have had they won.
As for the Russians? I fear they are doomed to a future of being booed at ice shows until the day they stop skating, which will be tragic. Even if you disagree with my assessment of the competition, give them a break, not because you thought they won, but because they were fantastic. Why yank away praise for what was good because you disagree with some of the people who judged the programs? Both pairs gave us something memorable, not because of the result, but because of the effort.
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
[This message has been edited by Bobo's Mom (edited February 13, 2002).]
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What continues to concern me, though, is the judging process itself. The judges have done a tremendous disservice to their sport, and all the participants are going to suffer as a result.
If the rules and criteria are so esoteric that the general public can't understand them, then the rules and criteria need to be changed. People aren't going to watch a sport if they can't understand for themselves who's winning and who's losing. I've heard a number of people (not just Bobo's Mom) say the Russians deserved to win because their routine was more difficult. Okay, maybe that's so - but can't we factor a "Degree of Difficulty" into the scoring system so that everyone can understand it? Diving does. Gymnastics does. Why can't figure skating? I'm sure there are many other possible improvements that could be made.
At best, the judges are simply being arrogant. At worst, they're colluding to fix the outcomes. Either way, the entire sport loses. Something needs to be done.
Maybe I'm just extra-sensitive on the subject of objective judging. I did run a Quality Assurance Department for three years, after all...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
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As I've said in all my posts in this thread, the canandians were good, the russians were good. If should have been a wonderful night for this sport I follow with such interest.
Any feelings of dismay I have are directed at the american media, especially the comentators, for turning this whole thing into a mess. Most of my comments have pointed out why it shouldn't have been a mess to begin with. But, I guess NBC wants their ratings.
This has been an interesting conversation that I would like to continue as the nights of skating progress. One slight misunderstanding about my last post. I'm not saying that the russians were booed - I'm saying that their future career was destroyed in terms of earning potental, which I find very sad indeed. An attempt at a metaphor for what will happen to them in light of all of this, nothing more. They'll forever be the one's who were "given" the gold.
Anyway, I have a fanfic chapter to work on!
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
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quote:
Originally posted by Bobo's Mom:
Wow, I’m in the minority here, but a good debate never hurt anyone! I’m more than happy to take it over to e-mail if everyone should tire of the non-W/T goodness, but responding will help fill the time before Buffy tonight. Consider it my small attempt to explain the mysteries of figure skating judging for greater enjoyment over the next few weeks. I love this sport, and have watched it for years, and understand how things are sometimes not what they seem.First, a common misconseption to address - The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
But what are they judged on? 1st mark(Tech.)= Difficulty/ Variety/ Cleanness & sureness of skating – not just in the tricks, but in how they are tied together. 2nd mark (Presentation) = Composition as a whole & how it relates to music/Speed/ Use of ice surface/Carriage, style, ease & sureness of motion with music/ Expression of character of the music/originality/unison.
My take on last night? In the tech scores - B/S were superior in Difficulty/Variety, S/P in Cleanness/Sureness. In the presentation scores – B/S were superior in speed/use of ice surface/ originality/ unison. S/P were superior in composition/carriage/expression of the music.
Which means, if I were a judge, I would have placed the Russians slightly higher. Sometimes, the emotional skate is not the best one when judged by established criteria. That’s why skating is a sport. Should anyone wish to know how I came to my conclusions, I’m more than happy to share more about the details of the programs, here or via e-mail. My heart loved the Canadians, but my head says the best program won.
Respectfully,
BM
Well I don't think it's necassary to go to e-mail. This is the OT thread for the Olympics. Well, everyone has made the same points I would have, so I agree with the points made. If you don't take into account the communist block, the fact that Russia has been the champion for decades, the fact that the Canadians have been robbed of the gold before, then re-read what Imperfectly said. She's right, it's about artistry. Just like dance, afterall it's dancing on ice. Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
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posted February 12, 2002 21:18quote:
Originally posted by Bobo's Mom:
Wow, I’m in the minority here, but a good debate never hurt anyone! I’m more than happy to take it over to e-mail if everyone should tire of the non-W/T goodness, but responding will help fill the time before Buffy tonight. Consider it my small attempt to explain the mysteries of figure skating judging for greater enjoyment over the next few weeks. I love this sport, and have watched it for years, and understand how things are sometimes not what they seem.First, a common misconseption to address - The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
But what are they judged on? 1st mark(Tech.)= Difficulty/ Variety/ Cleanness & sureness of skating – not just in the tricks, but in how they are tied together. 2nd mark (Presentation) = Composition as a whole & how it relates to music/Speed/ Use of ice surface/Carriage, style, ease & sureness of motion with music/ Expression of character of the music/originality/unison.
My take on last night? In the tech scores - B/S were superior in Difficulty/Variety, S/P in Cleanness/Sureness. In the presentation scores – B/S were superior in speed/use of ice surface/ originality/ unison. S/P were superior in composition/carriage/expression of the music.
Which means, if I were a judge, I would have placed the Russians slightly higher. Sometimes, the emotional skate is not the best one when judged by established criteria. That’s why skating is a sport. Should anyone wish to know how I came to my conclusions, I’m more than happy to share more about the details of the programs, here or via e-mail. My heart loved the Canadians, but my head says the best program won.
Respectfully,
BM
Well I don't think it's necassary to go to e-mail. This is the OT thread for the Olympics. Well, everyone has made the same points I would have, so I agree with the points made. If you don't take into account the communist block, the fact that Russia has been the champion for decades, the fact that the Canadians have been robbed of the gold before, then re-read what Imperfectly said. She's right, it's about artistry. Just like dance, afterall it's dancing on ice. Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
quote:IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now! ------------------
Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
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posted February 12, 2002 21:21 Well put, SpookyKitty.------------------
Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
IP: LoggedArtemisiaDoll's Eye Crystal IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 00:36 Well the rumors go that the French judge voted for the Russian pair in return for the Russians voting for the French in Ice Dancing. There is a fascinatng article about on MSNBC(which i can link if people are not sick to death of this) which I think BBOVEN Guy was speaking of. quote:
Originally posted by SpookyKitty:
Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
The American media also tells me that I love President Bush without question, enjoy tabloid television, and get fashion tips from Sex and the City. I’m not that trusting of the American media.
What happened in the long program was a virtual replay of Gordeeva/Grinkov from 1994, except that year, Grinkov made two errors within an otherwise superior program when the 2nd and 3rd place team skated less difficult programs perfectly. To the casual observer, they did not deserve the gold medal. However, the quality of everything they did, outside of Grinkov’s two jumping errors, was so high, and so complex, that their victory was clear upon reflection. (They were, in fact, booed while recieving their medals). That year, the TV commentary did a great job explaining why they won that made sense within the context of the rules of the sport. Maybe it was because of the tape delay that. What a shame that the casual skating public was not given the same insights this time. All the judges, no matter who they thought was the victor, placed them as close as you can.
As I said in my previous post, this was as close as you can get, and I’m not a fan of either team! The only skater I’m rooting for actively is Michelle Kwan, who WAS robbed 4 years ago. And in spite of what the commentary says, BOTH pairs made minor errors. B/S missed the landing on a jump. S/P lost synchronization on their 1st pair spin. B/S hung on to a throw triple salcow landing. S/P did crossovers while vamping for 15 seconds. And both did elements beautifully. I don’t know if anyone wants to follow figure skating beyond these two weeks, but a good exercise is to watch without sound or music. You learn to pick out small errors as well as extraordinary elements, like speed, and quality of edging, that sometimes are the only things that set the top skaters apart.
Not wishing to monopolize the thread, let me say this to move things along: Now the men’s judging was right on tonight! And a new Buffy to boot! (Why do I have a feeling that Willow would intellectualize skating as such as I do, while Tara would go with her gut?)
Best wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 00:40quote:
Originally posted by SpookyKitty:
Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
The American media also tells me that I love President Bush without question, enjoy tabloid television, and get fashion tips from Sex and the City. I’m not that trusting of the American media.
What happened in the long program was a virtual replay of Gordeeva/Grinkov from 1994, except that year, Grinkov made two errors within an otherwise superior program when the 2nd and 3rd place team skated less difficult programs perfectly. To the casual observer, they did not deserve the gold medal. However, the quality of everything they did, outside of Grinkov’s two jumping errors, was so high, and so complex, that their victory was clear upon reflection. (They were, in fact, booed while recieving their medals). That year, the TV commentary did a great job explaining why they won that made sense within the context of the rules of the sport. Maybe it was because of the tape delay that. What a shame that the casual skating public was not given the same insights this time. All the judges, no matter who they thought was the victor, placed them as close as you can.
As I said in my previous post, this was as close as you can get, and I’m not a fan of either team! The only skater I’m rooting for actively is Michelle Kwan, who WAS robbed 4 years ago. And in spite of what the commentary says, BOTH pairs made minor errors. B/S missed the landing on a jump. S/P lost synchronization on their 1st pair spin. B/S hung on to a throw triple salcow landing. S/P did crossovers while vamping for 15 seconds. And both did elements beautifully. I don’t know if anyone wants to follow figure skating beyond these two weeks, but a good exercise is to watch without sound or music. You learn to pick out small errors as well as extraordinary elements, like speed, and quality of edging, that sometimes are the only things that set the top skaters apart.
Not wishing to monopolize the thread, let me say this to move things along: Now the men’s judging was right on tonight! And a new Buffy to boot! (Why do I have a feeling that Willow would intellectualize skating as such as I do, while Tara would go with her gut?)
Best wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
****************
BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
I find that when the Russian did the 2nd jump, over rotated and double footed, that was a critical error. He almost fell. And talk about out of synch? the Russians there. I'll check back there is one scene where they are turning and they are not in synch at all. And their death spiral wasn't low enough. And He didn't catch her fast enough. When landing she wobbled each time. The whole presentation wasn't their best, at all. Now take the Canadians. Umm...I keep replaying it and I'm not seeing where they're out of synch. But what I did see was the Canadians giving a performance, keeping in rhythm, landing solidly on all jumps, and doing it with enthusiasm. So I'm still wondering here where the Canadians were worse? Um..ok, so the American media is so horrible. I suppose everyone else is foolish for all of this controversy. I mean you take the greatest choreographer in the world, ex-gold medal champion, Victor Gusev (Reporter for the Russian Olympic coverage) and many of us millions of "casual viewers" who all strongly believe the Canadians were robbed. I guess we should watch with the music off, then, eh?
[This message has been edited by SpookyKitty (edited February 13, 2002).]
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posted February 13, 2002 01:28I find that when the Russian did the 2nd jump, over rotated and double footed, that was a critical error. He almost fell. And talk about out of synch? the Russians there. I'll check back there is one scene where they are turning and they are not in synch at all. And their death spiral wasn't low enough. And He didn't catch her fast enough. When landing she wobbled each time. The whole presentation wasn't their best, at all. Now take the Canadians. Umm...I keep replaying it and I'm not seeing where they're out of synch. But what I did see was the Canadians giving a performance, keeping in rhythm, landing solidly on all jumps, and doing it with enthusiasm. So I'm still wondering here where the Canadians were worse? Um..ok, so the American media is so horrible. I suppose everyone else is foolish for all of this controversy. I mean you take the greatest choreographer in the world, ex-gold medal champion, Victor Gusev (Reporter for the Russian Olympic coverage) and many of us millions of "casual viewers" who all strongly believe the Canadians were robbed. I guess we should watch with the music off, then, eh?
[This message has been edited by SpookyKitty (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: LoggedjudySassy Eggs Sigh. I haven't watched tonight's BUFFY yet so I am sublimating by posting like mad in all the other threads.
And for the record, while I have heard many many in-depth lectures from my sister/Bobo's mom on this topic I have to say that I thought the Canadians deserved the gold and there's something very strange about a sport where the public can have such a vastly different perception than the judges. If this is the case perhaps we should all receive in-depth skating tutorials before every competition...
And also, my sister has been trained to judge regional/smaller skating competitions. She reviewed the tape last night and admitted that while she won't start screaming bloody murder, she was a little perplexed. (But she did say that you can't judge speed through the TV -- and that the Russians are faster as she's seen them live -- and that their program was technically harder. Also, she thinks the Canadian team erred in going back to the Love Story program -- an old one for them -- rather than their newer Rachmaninoff which may be more old stodgy judge-friendly and a little harder). My intellectual response? Poo poo.
[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 13, 2002).]
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posted February 13, 2002 01:42 Hey Bobo's mom are you my sister? You sound much like her (in commentary and your knowledge of figure skating details and technical stuff).Sigh. I haven't watched tonight's BUFFY yet so I am sublimating by posting like mad in all the other threads.
And for the record, while I have heard many many in-depth lectures from my sister/Bobo's mom on this topic I have to say that I thought the Canadians deserved the gold and there's something very strange about a sport where the public can have such a vastly different perception than the judges. If this is the case perhaps we should all receive in-depth skating tutorials before every competition...
And also, my sister has been trained to judge regional/smaller skating competitions. She reviewed the tape last night and admitted that while she won't start screaming bloody murder, she was a little perplexed. (But she did say that you can't judge speed through the TV -- and that the Russians are faster as she's seen them live -- and that their program was technically harder. Also, she thinks the Canadian team erred in going back to the Love Story program -- an old one for them -- rather than their newer Rachmaninoff which may be more old stodgy judge-friendly and a little harder). My intellectual response? Poo poo.
[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now! ------------------
Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 01:52 Well, y'know...it's nice to know we're all just ignorant and that the Canadians didn't really get screwed. I know *I* feel much better now------------------
Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
IP: LoggedjudySassy Eggs IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 01:56 Actually wiccagrrl, I think that's the problem. Whenever there's a figure skating controversy the defense is that the JUDGES have all this technical expertise that we Joe/Jo Q. Public don't and so be quiet because we don't really understand. I have been fascinated to hear some of this elusive and erudite technical stuff from my sister but I do think there's a contempt and patronizing attitude from "officials" that can only exacerbate tensions and tarnish people's interest in figure skating.IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now! Things may get even uglier if the stories about the French Judge and vote trading have any truth to them.
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 02:11 Well, I enjoy hearing the technical stuff, but in this case the results seemed fairly blatently wrong. The fact that so many commentators, who *do* understand the more technical stuff, were also baffled and upset with the results, leads me to feel the public may not be so far off in this case.Things may get even uglier if the stories about the French Judge and vote trading have any truth to them.
IP: LoggedPixieCool Monster Fighter On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"
[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
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posted February 13, 2002 02:44 It's very interesting to read all of your comments. Bobo's Mom, thank you for your breakdown of what the judges are looking for. I've been following figure skating for a long time as well, and one of the things that I have heard (which doesn't make me feel any better about this situation) is that judges can also be influenced by practices, even before the performance even starts. Please correct me, someone, if this is not true about Olympic figure skating events, but I believe that judges attend all the practices, and if a particular skater or pair has done especially well in practices, that can affect the judges' scores during the competition (can, not always will). I think that this was one of the issues in a previous Olympics, I can't remember which one. Maybe when Oksana Baiul won the gold over...was it Nancy Kerrigan? Again, if I have my facts ass-backwards, please jump all over me.On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"
[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon quote:
Originally posted by judy:
I have been fascinated to hear some of this elusive and erudite technical stuff from my sister but I do think there's a contempt and patronizing attitude from "officials" that can only exacerbate tensions and tarnish people's interest in figure skating.
According to the writers at MSNBC (who now have several articles up on the subject), there has been talk of booting Ice Dancing out of the Olympics entirely, on the grounds that the winners are determined before the event and therefore what we see is more exhibition than competition. Maybe that would get some people's attention.
Then again, it might also get the ISU's attention if people started comparing their events to Pro Wrestling. Come to think of it, there's a thought. They can call it "ISU Smackdown!" and have a three-round tag-team contest to decide who gets the gold medal. Too bad I'm not an editorial cartoonist...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 02:54quote:
Originally posted by judy:
I have been fascinated to hear some of this elusive and erudite technical stuff from my sister but I do think there's a contempt and patronizing attitude from "officials" that can only exacerbate tensions and tarnish people's interest in figure skating.
According to the writers at MSNBC (who now have several articles up on the subject), there has been talk of booting Ice Dancing out of the Olympics entirely, on the grounds that the winners are determined before the event and therefore what we see is more exhibition than competition. Maybe that would get some people's attention.
Then again, it might also get the ISU's attention if people started comparing their events to Pro Wrestling. Come to think of it, there's a thought. They can call it "ISU Smackdown!" and have a three-round tag-team contest to decide who gets the gold medal. Too bad I'm not an editorial cartoonist...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
quote:IP: Loggedlurker1.0Floating Rose IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 03:21 lol! ISU Smackdown I was just in the funniest visual place you can ever imagine. And that one funny little trip puts all of this into perspective. And now I'm not as upset. Thanks for that Bob.IP: LoggedshellybeanCool Monster Fighter IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 03:25 I still can't believe that crap with the Canadian ice skating duo! they deserved the gold! they were robbed! damn judges.IP: LoggedEvilAnyaCool Monster Fighter The Chinese skated with such grace and power, it was a shame she missed that landing (i believe he also made an error in a jump as well).
I don't want to get into the whole Russian/Canadian thing really, i just wanted to give my $0.02 on what i thought was a really good performance.
My heart broke for Todd Eldridge tonight. Does anyone know when the Men's Long program is on?
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posted February 13, 2002 05:22 All contraversy aside, the performance that most impressed me was the Chinese. If she had landed that quad throw things might have been very different (although who knows, if all this corruption in the ISU is to be believed then things might have stood as they were no matter the quality of everyone's performance).The Chinese skated with such grace and power, it was a shame she missed that landing (i believe he also made an error in a jump as well).
I don't want to get into the whole Russian/Canadian thing really, i just wanted to give my $0.02 on what i thought was a really good performance.
My heart broke for Todd Eldridge tonight. Does anyone know when the Men's Long program is on?
IP: LoggedArtemisiaDoll's Eye Crystal IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 08:07 I believe the men's freeskate program is on tomorrow evening. IP: LoggedAnakin1218Willowhand I'd heard what the judges did but didn;t get to see the program till yesterday afternoon and was blown away by how blind the judges could be. Not being a figure skating person myself I of course couldn't go into details but it seems to me they(the judges) made a gross mistake on awarding the medal to the Russians.
Hope someone looks into this and ppl are questioned,I read in the sports section this morning that the guy on the Candaian team may retire from the sport give what happend last night;how &(())Y^%^ is that??? just toss in the towel like that cause some dim whitted judges didn't see what was looking them right in the face.
Anyone know when women's ice hockey is going to be shown???
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"My heart doesn't stutter" -Tara
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posted February 13, 2002 13:01 ooh you should be one Bob that would be hella funny to see!I'd heard what the judges did but didn;t get to see the program till yesterday afternoon and was blown away by how blind the judges could be. Not being a figure skating person myself I of course couldn't go into details but it seems to me they(the judges) made a gross mistake on awarding the medal to the Russians.
Hope someone looks into this and ppl are questioned,I read in the sports section this morning that the guy on the Candaian team may retire from the sport give what happend last night;how &(())Y^%^ is that??? just toss in the towel like that cause some dim whitted judges didn't see what was looking them right in the face.
Anyone know when women's ice hockey is going to be shown???
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"My heart doesn't stutter" -Tara
The referee of the event (I don't know what a referee does in figure skating, but apparently they have one) has filed a letter with the ISU, detailing "irregularities" he saw in the judging. The referee, by the way, is an American. Meanwhile, the Toronto Globe and Mail has published a report claiming there was collusion among the judges to fix the results of the pairs competition as a trade off for other fixed results in the ice dancing competition. ESPN is saying the same thing.
The ISU says they're making an inquiry, but there's probably nothing they can do to overturn the results from Monday night - which is about what I expected them to say. It will be interesting to see how the ice dancing results turn out.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 15:15 MSNBC has more news on the figure skating controversy. It's not looking good.The referee of the event (I don't know what a referee does in figure skating, but apparently they have one) has filed a letter with the ISU, detailing "irregularities" he saw in the judging. The referee, by the way, is an American. Meanwhile, the Toronto Globe and Mail has published a report claiming there was collusion among the judges to fix the results of the pairs competition as a trade off for other fixed results in the ice dancing competition. ESPN is saying the same thing.
The ISU says they're making an inquiry, but there's probably nothing they can do to overturn the results from Monday night - which is about what I expected them to say. It will be interesting to see how the ice dancing results turn out.
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
On the icky note, the same judges who did the pairs are going to judge ice dancing, so that should be interesting.
Anyone know whether the German women won luge? or is that tonight
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It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since.
Miss Bates(emma 2)
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posted February 13, 2002 15:27 Spolilery! On the icky note, the same judges who did the pairs are going to judge ice dancing, so that should be interesting.
Anyone know whether the German women won luge? or is that tonight
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It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since.
Miss Bates(emma 2)
quote:
Originally posted by Pixie:
On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
As I laugh my head off (thanks why the way) I can’t help but wonder what music Spike would chose for his long program. For some reason, Nine Inch Nails comes to mind!!
Now, to reply to my critics. My attempts here have been in the interest of supplying a different point of view. Should it not be welcomed, I’m more than happy to sit in the corner and not take part in the conversation, or stick to the figure skating boards with my observations (even thought they kind of frighten me with their frame by frame breakdowns of all competitors).
Differences of opinion happen within the judges corps and among the viewing public all the time. All of the judges placed the pairs as close as close can be, a fact that’s getting lost within this debate, both here, and in the media. Three of the judges placed B/S in first, by a slight margin. Four of the judges placed S/P in first, by a slight margin. Two of the judges tied them statistically, but gave slightly higher presentation marks to B/S, which broke the tie in their favor. Throughout this conversation, the major point I have been trying to make has been how very, very close this was, and that it could have gone either way on any judge’s score card. To me, this says that I watched one of the best Olympic Pairs finals ever. The only thing that pushes my buttons was the horrid commentary from the other night that quickly snowballed into a major controversy. A shame, when you think that all nine judges placed the two teams in question a hair’s width apart. It's my feeling that the inquiry will show nothing when I consider this fact. (And my faith in human nature hopes this to be the case).
Anyway, on a realistic note, look at it this way – the Canadian couple will end up being far wealthier in the long run because of this result. Had they just won the gold medal, they would have looked forward to a professional career of some note, perhaps touring with Hamilton’s Stars on Ice. With this controversy, they will have a long, successful and memorable love affair with the North American public that will result in sponsorships, commercials, endorsement deals, etc. They have become household names in a way that they wouldn’t have had they won.
As for the Russians? I fear they are doomed to a future of being booed at ice shows until the day they stop skating, which will be tragic. Even if you disagree with my assessment of the competition, give them a break, not because you thought they won, but because they were fantastic. Why yank away praise for what was good because you disagree with some of the people who judged the programs? Both pairs gave us something memorable, not because of the result, but because of the effort.
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
****************
BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
[This message has been edited by Bobo's Mom (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 15:28quote:
Originally posted by Pixie:
On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
As I laugh my head off (thanks why the way) I can’t help but wonder what music Spike would chose for his long program. For some reason, Nine Inch Nails comes to mind!!
Now, to reply to my critics. My attempts here have been in the interest of supplying a different point of view. Should it not be welcomed, I’m more than happy to sit in the corner and not take part in the conversation, or stick to the figure skating boards with my observations (even thought they kind of frighten me with their frame by frame breakdowns of all competitors).
Differences of opinion happen within the judges corps and among the viewing public all the time. All of the judges placed the pairs as close as close can be, a fact that’s getting lost within this debate, both here, and in the media. Three of the judges placed B/S in first, by a slight margin. Four of the judges placed S/P in first, by a slight margin. Two of the judges tied them statistically, but gave slightly higher presentation marks to B/S, which broke the tie in their favor. Throughout this conversation, the major point I have been trying to make has been how very, very close this was, and that it could have gone either way on any judge’s score card. To me, this says that I watched one of the best Olympic Pairs finals ever. The only thing that pushes my buttons was the horrid commentary from the other night that quickly snowballed into a major controversy. A shame, when you think that all nine judges placed the two teams in question a hair’s width apart. It's my feeling that the inquiry will show nothing when I consider this fact. (And my faith in human nature hopes this to be the case).
Anyway, on a realistic note, look at it this way – the Canadian couple will end up being far wealthier in the long run because of this result. Had they just won the gold medal, they would have looked forward to a professional career of some note, perhaps touring with Hamilton’s Stars on Ice. With this controversy, they will have a long, successful and memorable love affair with the North American public that will result in sponsorships, commercials, endorsement deals, etc. They have become household names in a way that they wouldn’t have had they won.
As for the Russians? I fear they are doomed to a future of being booed at ice shows until the day they stop skating, which will be tragic. Even if you disagree with my assessment of the competition, give them a break, not because you thought they won, but because they were fantastic. Why yank away praise for what was good because you disagree with some of the people who judged the programs? Both pairs gave us something memorable, not because of the result, but because of the effort.
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
****************
BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
[This message has been edited by Bobo's Mom (edited February 13, 2002).]
quote:IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon What continues to concern me, though, is the judging process itself. The judges have done a tremendous disservice to their sport, and all the participants are going to suffer as a result.
If the rules and criteria are so esoteric that the general public can't understand them, then the rules and criteria need to be changed. People aren't going to watch a sport if they can't understand for themselves who's winning and who's losing. I've heard a number of people (not just Bobo's Mom) say the Russians deserved to win because their routine was more difficult. Okay, maybe that's so - but can't we factor a "Degree of Difficulty" into the scoring system so that everyone can understand it? Diving does. Gymnastics does. Why can't figure skating? I'm sure there are many other possible improvements that could be made.
At best, the judges are simply being arrogant. At worst, they're colluding to fix the outcomes. Either way, the entire sport loses. Something needs to be done.
Maybe I'm just extra-sensitive on the subject of objective judging. I did run a Quality Assurance Department for three years, after all...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 16:20 Oh, in no way do I blame the Russian skaters for what has happened, and I would never boo them if I ever got the chance to see them perform. I've even moved past the results of the event to some degree, since there's really nothing that can be done about them.What continues to concern me, though, is the judging process itself. The judges have done a tremendous disservice to their sport, and all the participants are going to suffer as a result.
If the rules and criteria are so esoteric that the general public can't understand them, then the rules and criteria need to be changed. People aren't going to watch a sport if they can't understand for themselves who's winning and who's losing. I've heard a number of people (not just Bobo's Mom) say the Russians deserved to win because their routine was more difficult. Okay, maybe that's so - but can't we factor a "Degree of Difficulty" into the scoring system so that everyone can understand it? Diving does. Gymnastics does. Why can't figure skating? I'm sure there are many other possible improvements that could be made.
At best, the judges are simply being arrogant. At worst, they're colluding to fix the outcomes. Either way, the entire sport loses. Something needs to be done.
Maybe I'm just extra-sensitive on the subject of objective judging. I did run a Quality Assurance Department for three years, after all...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
IP: LoggedArtemisiaDoll's Eye Crystal IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 16:54 Bobo's Mom, IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 18:19 It's too bad that you are taking a simple olympics debate personally. I mean, it wouldn't be a debate if there wasn't a differing opinion. Sorry, but as I said in the beginning I wasn't trying to be mean. Just because most of us here feel that the Canadians should have won, and you don't, doesn't make your opinion any less valid. But that's not gonna stop me for validating my opinion, either. Anyway: Yes, you have been saying it was pretty close, but you favored the Russians. Nothing wrong with that but I feel differently. Um, that would be why I started this debate. I don't think it was just the interviewers that striked controversy. And all of this is about the controversy of the judges decision, I for one never said I hated the Russians, just that the Candians were better. Many others felt the same way, as I've already mentioned them in a previous post I won't go further. This is all about the judges. The fact that (in my opinion) olympic figure skating has been fixed for years. And Artemisia is right: The Russians have never been booed! And the most likely won't be. However S/P are quitting (which is something I heard from an interviewer and may not be true)So to end this I'll put it this way: I'm agreeing to disagree with you. And we'll end it at that. It's too bad because I thought this would have been a great debate because of the controversy but I'll go to another board and hopefully the situation won't repeat.IP: Loggedlurker1.0Floating Rose IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 18:24 Just to say this quickly.. S/P aren't quiting. They plan next to go to the World Figure Skating Championships, and have made no plans for after that as of now. There is no truth to the rumour. And if David were in fact going to retire just because of the events that have taken place this week it would be a show of poor sportsmanship on his part.IP: LoggedBobo's MomDoll's Eye Crystal As I've said in all my posts in this thread, the canandians were good, the russians were good. If should have been a wonderful night for this sport I follow with such interest.
Any feelings of dismay I have are directed at the american media, especially the comentators, for turning this whole thing into a mess. Most of my comments have pointed out why it shouldn't have been a mess to begin with. But, I guess NBC wants their ratings.
This has been an interesting conversation that I would like to continue as the nights of skating progress. One slight misunderstanding about my last post. I'm not saying that the russians were booed - I'm saying that their future career was destroyed in terms of earning potental, which I find very sad indeed. An attempt at a metaphor for what will happen to them in light of all of this, nothing more. They'll forever be the one's who were "given" the gold.
Anyway, I have a fanfic chapter to work on!
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
IP: Logged
posted February 13, 2002 18:46 To be honest, I'm not taking this personally, and am more than happy to continue to share view points. Yes, we all agree to disagree, and that's a good thing.As I've said in all my posts in this thread, the canandians were good, the russians were good. If should have been a wonderful night for this sport I follow with such interest.
Any feelings of dismay I have are directed at the american media, especially the comentators, for turning this whole thing into a mess. Most of my comments have pointed out why it shouldn't have been a mess to begin with. But, I guess NBC wants their ratings.
This has been an interesting conversation that I would like to continue as the nights of skating progress. One slight misunderstanding about my last post. I'm not saying that the russians were booed - I'm saying that their future career was destroyed in terms of earning potental, which I find very sad indeed. An attempt at a metaphor for what will happen to them in light of all of this, nothing more. They'll forever be the one's who were "given" the gold.
Anyway, I have a fanfic chapter to work on!
Best Wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
by SpookyKitty » Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:18 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bobo's Mom:
Wow, I’m in the minority here, but a good debate never hurt anyone! I’m more than happy to take it over to e-mail if everyone should tire of the non-W/T goodness, but responding will help fill the time before Buffy tonight. Consider it my small attempt to explain the mysteries of figure skating judging for greater enjoyment over the next few weeks. I love this sport, and have watched it for years, and understand how things are sometimes not what they seem.First, a common misconseption to address - The short program has mandatory deductions. The long program does not.
But what are they judged on? 1st mark(Tech.)= Difficulty/ Variety/ Cleanness & sureness of skating – not just in the tricks, but in how they are tied together. 2nd mark (Presentation) = Composition as a whole & how it relates to music/Speed/ Use of ice surface/Carriage, style, ease & sureness of motion with music/ Expression of character of the music/originality/unison.
My take on last night? In the tech scores - B/S were superior in Difficulty/Variety, S/P in Cleanness/Sureness. In the presentation scores – B/S were superior in speed/use of ice surface/ originality/ unison. S/P were superior in composition/carriage/expression of the music.
Which means, if I were a judge, I would have placed the Russians slightly higher. Sometimes, the emotional skate is not the best one when judged by established criteria. That’s why skating is a sport. Should anyone wish to know how I came to my conclusions, I’m more than happy to share more about the details of the programs, here or via e-mail. My heart loved the Canadians, but my head says the best program won.
Respectfully,
BM
Well I don't think it's necassary to go to e-mail. This is the OT thread for the Olympics. Well, everyone has made the same points I would have, so I agree with the points made. If you don't take into account the communist block, the fact that Russia has been the champion for decades, the fact that the Canadians have been robbed of the gold before, then re-read what Imperfectly said. She's right, it's about artistry. Just like dance, afterall it's dancing on ice. Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
quote:by Wiccagrrl » Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:21 pm
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Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
by Artemisia » Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:36 pm
by Bobo's Mom » Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:40 pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpookyKitty:
Canada should have won, simple as that, and they were shafted. The American Media says so, The Canadians do, ex-judges interviewed can't believe it and neither could the audience watching.
The American media also tells me that I love President Bush without question, enjoy tabloid television, and get fashion tips from Sex and the City. I’m not that trusting of the American media.
What happened in the long program was a virtual replay of Gordeeva/Grinkov from 1994, except that year, Grinkov made two errors within an otherwise superior program when the 2nd and 3rd place team skated less difficult programs perfectly. To the casual observer, they did not deserve the gold medal. However, the quality of everything they did, outside of Grinkov’s two jumping errors, was so high, and so complex, that their victory was clear upon reflection. (They were, in fact, booed while recieving their medals). That year, the TV commentary did a great job explaining why they won that made sense within the context of the rules of the sport. Maybe it was because of the tape delay that. What a shame that the casual skating public was not given the same insights this time. All the judges, no matter who they thought was the victor, placed them as close as you can.
As I said in my previous post, this was as close as you can get, and I’m not a fan of either team! The only skater I’m rooting for actively is Michelle Kwan, who WAS robbed 4 years ago. And in spite of what the commentary says, BOTH pairs made minor errors. B/S missed the landing on a jump. S/P lost synchronization on their 1st pair spin. B/S hung on to a throw triple salcow landing. S/P did crossovers while vamping for 15 seconds. And both did elements beautifully. I don’t know if anyone wants to follow figure skating beyond these two weeks, but a good exercise is to watch without sound or music. You learn to pick out small errors as well as extraordinary elements, like speed, and quality of edging, that sometimes are the only things that set the top skaters apart.
Not wishing to monopolize the thread, let me say this to move things along: Now the men’s judging was right on tonight! And a new Buffy to boot! (Why do I have a feeling that Willow would intellectualize skating as such as I do, while Tara would go with her gut?)
Best wishes,
BM
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
****************
BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
by SpookyKitty » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:28 pm
I find that when the Russian did the 2nd jump, over rotated and double footed, that was a critical error. He almost fell. And talk about out of synch? the Russians there. I'll check back there is one scene where they are turning and they are not in synch at all. And their death spiral wasn't low enough. And He didn't catch her fast enough. When landing she wobbled each time. The whole presentation wasn't their best, at all. Now take the Canadians. Umm...I keep replaying it and I'm not seeing where they're out of synch. But what I did see was the Canadians giving a performance, keeping in rhythm, landing solidly on all jumps, and doing it with enthusiasm. So I'm still wondering here where the Canadians were worse? Um..ok, so the American media is so horrible. I suppose everyone else is foolish for all of this controversy. I mean you take the greatest choreographer in the world, ex-gold medal champion, Victor Gusev (Reporter for the Russian Olympic coverage) and many of us millions of "casual viewers" who all strongly believe the Canadians were robbed. I guess we should watch with the music off, then, eh?
[This message has been edited by SpookyKitty (edited February 13, 2002).]
by judy » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:42 pm
Sigh. I haven't watched tonight's BUFFY yet so I am sublimating by posting like mad in all the other threads.
And for the record, while I have heard many many in-depth lectures from my sister/Bobo's mom on this topic I have to say that I thought the Canadians deserved the gold and there's something very strange about a sport where the public can have such a vastly different perception than the judges. If this is the case perhaps we should all receive in-depth skating tutorials before every competition...
And also, my sister has been trained to judge regional/smaller skating competitions. She reviewed the tape last night and admitted that while she won't start screaming bloody murder, she was a little perplexed. (But she did say that you can't judge speed through the TV -- and that the Russians are faster as she's seen them live -- and that their program was technically harder. Also, she thinks the Canadian team erred in going back to the Love Story program -- an old one for them -- rather than their newer Rachmaninoff which may be more old stodgy judge-friendly and a little harder). My intellectual response? Poo poo.
[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 13, 2002).]
by Wiccagrrl » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:52 pm
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Tracy
Hear that Baby? You're my always.
by judy » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:56 pm
by Wiccagrrl » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:11 am
Things may get even uglier if the stories about the French Judge and vote trading have any truth to them.
by Pixie » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:44 am
On a lighter note, Bobo's Mom, as I was reading your posts about S/P and B/S, my first thought was "Spike can skate?!?!"
[This message has been edited by Pixie (edited February 13, 2002).]
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:54 am
quote:
Originally posted by judy:
I have been fascinated to hear some of this elusive and erudite technical stuff from my sister but I do think there's a contempt and patronizing attitude from "officials" that can only exacerbate tensions and tarnish people's interest in figure skating.
According to the writers at MSNBC (who now have several articles up on the subject), there has been talk of booting Ice Dancing out of the Olympics entirely, on the grounds that the winners are determined before the event and therefore what we see is more exhibition than competition. Maybe that would get some people's attention.
Then again, it might also get the ISU's attention if people started comparing their events to Pro Wrestling. Come to think of it, there's a thought. They can call it "ISU Smackdown!" and have a three-round tag-team contest to decide who gets the gold medal. Too bad I'm not an editorial cartoonist...
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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 13, 2002).]
quote:by lurker1.0 » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:21 am
by shellybean » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:25 am
by EvilAnya » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:22 am
The Chinese skated with such grace and power, it was a shame she missed that landing (i believe he also made an error in a jump as well).
I don't want to get into the whole Russian/Canadian thing really, i just wanted to give my $0.02 on what i thought was a really good performance.
My heart broke for Todd Eldridge tonight. Does anyone know when the Men's Long program is on?
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