No more "junior partner"

[AutumnT]

I'm a sucker for discussion threads, what can I say. No spoilers here, just some conjecture.

One of the things I've been thinking about lately is the balance of power as it is in the relationship between Willow and Tara, how it is perceived by both, how it has altered over time, and where it might end up when our girls reunite.

To me it was very obvious that for the majority of the relationship that Willow was the dominant partner. Tara was initially shy and submissive and extremely non-confrontational. Willow was clearly in control, making the decisions as to when Tara would be integrated into the group, even being the one who completely controlled the decision in New Moon Rising as to how the relationship would continue. Even throughout season 5 we still got continued signs of Tara's insecurity about how she fit in, what her place was, etc.

And yet, interestingly enough from Willow's perspective, Willow felt she was the junior partner. In her dreamworld in Restless Tara was cool, calm, and in control. In Tough Love while Tara was initially trying to soften and back out of the argument, Willow said she felt like the "junior partner" - her own insecurities making her reality much different from how Tara and we, the viewers, saw the relationship.

It's interesting to me now that the balance of power really has finally shifted. First tentatively as Tara began to assert herself over Willow's use of magic to what we saw in Older and Far Away and Dead Things where Willow has become the submissive one and Tara is the one in charge really of how things are moving forward. It's almost as out of balance as it was back when Tara was shyly offering Willow her crystal with Willow trying to be encouraging yet not hurt the other girl's feelings.

While we've been discussing the maturity of Tara all season, she does after all fall into the "grow up" arc of this year. Her breaking up with Willow was instrumental to that happening and to her finding her own voice and strength within. She just grew up a lot faster than the rest of the Scoobies. In the end, I think it will help her and Willow have a more mature and grown up relationship when they reunite.

In order for that to happen, it can't happen with Willow just switching roles and actually really becoming the "junior partner" she thought she was. They have to enter the new phase of their relationship with neither running things or being in charge. Something Tara expressed when she told Willow in Tabula Rasa when she said "We're in a relationship; we're supposed to decide together." I do think this is going to happen, and it's going to be interesting to watch them find a balance as they move towards reconciling.

I guess I'm just excited to see these girls get back together when there are no more junior partners. When they can do their growing up together after they've both conquered their own personal issues that caused the relationship to be out of balance in the first place.

Comments?

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited February 19, 2002).]

[Scout]

You've raised some interesting points. I was just thinking the other day after watching 'OAFA' that at some point Willow has to regain some of her self-esteem and dignity for their relationship to be truly healthy. I think finding the worth in her non-magick self and winning back Tara's trust will get her moving in the right direction. Until then, Tara is pretty much in control and that makes it as unbalanced as it was in their early relationship.

But is it possible for a real relationship to be perfectly balanced all the time? I know this is a TV show, but in real life I think the balance of power in a relationship fluctuates as life throws new challenges your way. I think it might seem balanced for periods of time, but unemployment, death, poor self-esteem and other factors can upset the balance.

I also think your perception of balance can be skewed. For example, in 'Tough Love,' we saw that both girls felt like they had the weaker hand due to their insecurities; regardless of reality, that was their perception.

I guess my point is that you can't have a perfectly balanced relationship indefinitely, but I think that Willow and Tara’s relationship can get stronger and more balanced than it is now. I know it will get better once Willow has gained more confidence and a better sense of self. Tara is already in a healthy place emotionally, due to her own inner strength and the power of Willow's love; now we just need to get Willow's self-esteem on firmer ground.

[sparkles]

Some really interesting points there Autumn. And some very sound ones to boot.

As invited, a few comments.

When you say how Will made the decision as to when Tara would be intergrated into the group, I think that might have more to do with when Willow was ready to out herself. It wasn't so much about Willow getting Tara into the group, more would she be rejected by the group because her involvement with Tara. I agree that Tara was to a large extent submissive to Willow's agenda/progress/development but I like to think that Tara was giving her the space a newlie soon-to-be-outie might need.

However, I do think that Tara has grown massively this season. She is strong be-good to-yourself-too Tara. As is the way in good relationships (and for all its recent difficulties W/T's relationship is the strongest we've seen on Buffy) Tara's growth is inextricably linked to Willow's love for her. Willow's love and admiration for, and trust in, Tara has given Tara such confidence in herself and also mskes it easier for Tara to love herself unconditionally figuring if Willow can, why can't she?

And that I think is where the balance gets all skew-wiffy. Tara has learnt to love herself (and therefore others) unconditionally. Willow hasn't. Yet.

But she will (please, god) and guess who'll help her. And when she does. No more junior partners...

#Oooh happy day#

[This message has been edited by sparkles (edited February 19, 2002).]

[Under Her Spell]

Willow has kinda reverted back to her pre-Oz state to an extent (shy that, is not straight!) - so now Tara is doing for Willow what Willow did for Tara, bringing her out of herself again. I'm assuming this will at some point involve magic, with Willow beginning to get some of her power back - but not the dark part of her power. Tara's understanding of the proper use for magic is greater than Willow's, after all.

I like this storyline, as I always felt that the self-confident Willow late Season 5 and early in Season 6 wasn't truly her. It was like she was trying too hard to escape from her High School self, and as a result giving up some of her cuteness. (I can't think of a better word! )

The thing is, with Willow self-confidence turned into self-reliance, and that was where things went wrong - when she stopped involving Tara in her magic, she lost her way.

Yes, Willow needs to get her self-esteem back, but obviously not her self-reliance.

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited February 19, 2002).]

[Dazey]

It's interesting that you've chosen to discuss their relationship in terms of power and control and a dominant/submissive dynamic. I don't think I've ever viewed it that way. Certainly your points seem valid, but...I dunno, this reading just doesn't work for me. I'd like to offer an alternative but I can't seem to get my brain in gear today. I'll try to think on it and hopefully have something worthwhile to say later.

------------------
"We are in the love. We are...the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type."

[AutumnT]

Perhaps my wording brought forth a rather unintentional S/M connotation Dazey. Not what I was going for, but rather an exploration on how it seems the roles have reversed for Willow & Tara in their place in the relationship. My point in this discussion was not to view anything in their past relationship as being unhealthy or wrong. That is a relationship I fell in love with. I'm just looking forward to a time when both girls have more confidence in themselves and their worthiness. Part of that will certainly be handling confrontation and bumps in the relationship better than they've done in the past.

I agree Scout, that things can't always be perfectly balanced but I guess I want to see this relationship more balanced and in the end more of a grown up relationship because of it. While I love the song "Under Your Spell" the thing about it that nags at me is Tara's feeling that people see Willow in her and that is what makes her attractive. Yes, Willow's love has changed her life and helped her to come out of her shell, but it is important to see that part of her that is attractive to others (including Willow). Which is why it has been so gratifying to see her holding her own and keeping her other relationships in tact while apart from Willow. It's helping her to learn her worth to the group instead of the days when she never felt useful. I'm excited for the possiblity of them being in a relationship where there are less self esteem issues for both of them.

Sparkles Point taken about Willow's wish to perhaps not be out with her friends at that point, but I don't think she needed to be out to introduce Tara to them. It just felt pretty much like Willow was holding most of the cards early on.

Under Her Spell I like some of the self confidence on Willow. I especially enjoyed it in season 4 where we really got to see Willow in her element in college and she got to blossom more. Before it seemed like she was pushing herself too far with it.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited February 19, 2002).]

[Dr.G]

*deleting now, I'd better repost when I can make sense, this is a very interesting subject, not one I should rush into.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 19, 2002).]

[Dazey]

Heh heh...I wasn't thinking S&M. Truly. Certainly there's been a kind of role reversal...I was just a bit startled, I guess, by the terms in which you couched your discussion. Talking about "power" and "control" seems so harsh and well, sort of patriarchal. Obviously this doesn't apply to W/T and I'm sure you didn't intend that.

I'll try to think more about the spirit of your post and less about the letter.

------------------
"We are in the love. We are...the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type."

[AutumnT]

Point taken on the wording Dazey I could have been more careful in the way I phrased what I was trying to say. I meant more along the lines of who takes the lead not that one was trying to control or dominate the other but that the balance is shifted. I guess I should have thought through how to express this a little more carefully.

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[Scout]

Yeah, ‘control’ can be a problematic word. When I used it, I was talking about the same thing as Autumn - I was talking about who’s leading the way.

In the beginning, Tara was comfortable with incorporating herself into Willow’s life, Willow’s friendships, Willow’s priorities – in a way, Willow led. But then things fell apart with the addiction and Willow caused their breakup. Now she’s starting down the path of reunification with Tara and we see Tara leading the way. Tara is deciding if she will open herself up to Willow again and, in effect, is deciding if and how they get back together. Now Tara is leading.

IMO, it’s not about actually controlling the other person. Both of them have experienced periods when their self-esteem and other factors determined if they were more likely to lead or follow. But I think that at some point in the future they’ll both have a stronger sense of self, which will result in a more collaborative relationship.

The relationship has always been powerful and beautiful, but as they grow into emotionally mature women, it’s likely to become more balanced.

[Willowlicious]

Wow. Excellent discussion topic, Autumn. I've been curious for months as to how the dynamic of Willow and Tara's relationship would be altered after they've weathered this substantial storm.

I, too, saw Willow as the "dominant" partner. I agree, Dazey, that the word "dominant" sounds uncomfortably patriarchal, but it is a word that is used to describe a myriad of relationships, from the aforementioned S/M to gay and lesbian relationships to just about any other coupling. There are other cruder terms for (nearly) the same thing: butch/femme, top/bottom, master/slave. What's funny is that they are all really trying to describe variations of the traditional breeder husband/wife dynamic. One need only take a glance at these words to sense THAT institution's unfortunate history with power imbalance. Male: butch, top, master. Female: femme, bottom, slave. Hmmmm. For the sake of this discussion, though, I will shake off my own misgivings about the above words and take them at face value even though they are simplistic and incomplete. I will use them as a starting point.

Willow, I always thought, leaned toward the "male" persona (cringe) in her relationship with Tara. She was the Scooby (the one with the "important job"). She, as has been discussed numerous times on the Kitten, probably took the lead in bed. It's really just an informed inkling, but there is some evidence of this in that she is always seen holding Tara in bed not vice versa. She was sort of the "top" in "Under Your Spell" (though oral sex is really a topless event...er, that came out all wrong). Willow, by virtue of being more outgoing, also took the social lead when they went out. There are many scenes from S4-S5 that were basically Willow talking shop with the Scoobs while Tara sat supportively at her side or stood slightly behind her.

As for Tara, she came across to me as very "submissive" early on. She was obviously smitten with Willow before Willow was with her. That meant that she was beholden to Willow's actions. She was painfully shy, so, as I already mentioned, she let Willow take the social lead. Sexually, Tara knew she was gay, but it seems that it was Willow who had more sexual experience overall, so one could envision Tara taking the "bottom" role (most, but not all, of the time). Tara is also extremely maternal. Her personality type yearns to love and support. Willow seems to eat that attention up, too (example: dinner flashback in "The Body" when Tara mentions rubbing Willow's tummy.) All these things fit the traditional "female" role.

Since a lot of what I listed above comes from their personality types, I think some of it will remain or resurface once they get back together. For example, I think Tara will always "mother" Willow to an extent and Willow will always love it. And let me say that I don't think any "role" is wrong. It's obvious that Willow and Tara loved (and still love) each other very much. Willow had to take the lead in some areas because Tara was so very shy. Willow is not power hungry or forceful. It's just that some things needed to be done, so she did them. Also, Willow was never the "dominant" one in the Scoobies, so it probably stroked her ego for someone to need and want her to take the lead. I also think that, after a while, Tara didn't necessarily need Willow to lead all the time, but she knew it helped Willow's self-esteem and she loved seeing her shine, so she gladly let Willow be dominant. Tara seems to take great pleasure in Willow's pleasure.

That said, given the emotional beating Willow has taken with her addiction and the guilt of her betrayal, I think Willow will be tentative and submissive about a number of things for a while after they reunite. At first, she will probably just be so damn grateful to have Tara back that she'll be in "Whatever you say, dear" mode for a while. Sexually, she'll wait for Tara to make the first move (and second and third). Socially, I think she'll want to sit back and listen more than actively engage. She has a lot to think about and her confidence is SHOT. It won't stay like that forever, though. Tara is remarkably kind and capable of truly forgiving. She will work with Willow to forgive herself and gain confidence in her "plain" abilities. She will point out that Willow, not SuperWillow, fought through her addiction and changed her behavior...and got the girl. No small feats. Tara, herself, will gain even more self-esteem by taking the lead for a while. Eventually, it will settle down into a happy medium. One in which they both dominate and submit at times.

Their relationship will be different, but much, much stronger. You simply couldn't break them up after this. Scar tissue is strong.

[Under Her Spell]

I probably shouldn't speculate too much about this sort of thing, but I always thought those magic scenes in Season 4 were about Tara teaching Willow the ways of girl love, with the magic as a metaphor for that (as well as being just plain old magic). That said, I kind of got the impression that Willow probably progressed in the bedroom as fast as she did with her spells.

*Goes to have a lie down*

[xita]

I am going to jump in and throw my 2 pennies in. I have always observed the power issues in relationships, which is not so much about control but about leading. I also know that these dynamics change and fluctuate in most relationships and I have observed it in w/t. Ok now within that I want to talk about 2 things, one is adulthood and the other is support/comfort.

Willow clearly saw Tara as the adult. She was the wise one with lots of experience in life whereas she had been a bit sheltered in some things. I remember her plea in The Body, "Why can't I be a grown-up?" Tara had always been a grown up. In that situation with Joyce dying, Willow didn't know what to do and felt helpless. Tara with experience handled herself beautifully. Insecure in some things, Tara's harsh life had allowed her a certain knowledge. Ironically it is in this admition that we find one of the few times where Tara comforts Willow and more importantly Willow allows herself weakness.

Yet I saw how Willow welcomed adulthood challenges in her promise to take care of Tara (which ironically Buffy promises to take care of Dawn as well). Now, while their hearts are in the right place, neither Buffy nor Willow were ready for it because they hadn't achieved a certain self-awareness and maturity. Promptly in season 6 both longed for a bit of freedom. But they forgot freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. Anyway, going off on a tangent.

Willow's junior partner speech was clearly a complaint about Tara always knowing better. Tara knew how to handle a grieving Buffy, warning not to judge her behavior. Tara who knew what it is like when you lose a loved one, Tara who was always the voice of reason. And Willow didn't, but she longed to. So while Tara saw everything from a point of view where Willow walked on water. Willow saw Tara as the one who knew best. And yet both of these positions stem from their insecurities. Now, Tara knows Willow is human capable of terrible mistakes and Willow knows that she can too get through bad things and learn a lesson or two along the way.

The other issue is support, weakness. Willow has mistaken maturity with unbending will. Since Tara's bout with Glory, Willow has been unable to show weakness. It's interesting because it is probably the way that she overcompensated for feeling like the junior partner. Unable to express fear even in the sanctity of their bedroom. And always, and I mean always being the one to hold Tara in bed. In addition to a reunion with major kissing, I want a reunion with Tara holding Willow in bed. This is what I want or better yet, both holding each other.

I think clearly both have been bound by insecurity. But maybe this time they can learn to argue, Tara can stand up to Willow and communicate strongly what she thinks and Willow can take it without doubting basic issues like does Tara love me. They need to learn to be strong and needy, and supportive and nurturing and weak as the situation dictates.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 19, 2002).]

[AutumnT]

I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. Xita, I think you hit on a particularly important point when you talked about them learning to argue because if you look at the history of the relationship they've never resolved a major disagreement in a healthy manner. Either someone has stormed off leaving things unresolved or, worse yet, the whole memory of the fight was mind wiped. One of the most important things to learn in a relationship is how to weather these storms and we know from history that is not Willow's area of expertise. I think the first time they can get through a fight as difficult and unpleasant as they may be it will be an important landmark in their relationship.

I really believe that in the long run as horrid as this breakup has been for all of us they can emerge a stronger pair from the lessons learned through it. And certainly secure that even though things can really really suck and seem hopeless they can and will find each other.

------------------
Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited February 19, 2002).]

[The Rose]

I agree with most of you, but it seems when W/T first meet, Tara is the who is pushing the relationship along. In "Hush," Tara is the one who seeks out Willow even after Willow sees that Tara is the only person in the Wicca group who knows something about magick. Also, Tara is the one who grabs Willow's hand to move the soda machine. In "The I in Team," Tara is the one who tries to give Willow the doll's eye crystal and later invites Willow over to do something. The doll's eye is one of those gifts that says I want more from you, and I want you to stick around. Last, but not least, Tara is the one who makes the first move when pursuing the romance. Tara tells Willow that she is hers. This is the first time Tara actually expresses out loud she is romantically interested in Willow. The non-verbal feelings are all there from the beginning.

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[Rastven]

I must say this is a great topic to ponder while one sits and waits for experiments to finish.

Anyway, I agree with most of what has been said but I always read Willow's unwillingness to introduce Tara to the rest of the gang slightly differently.
I'm sure we all know how hard it can be to integrate someone into a tight-knit group. People sometime get their feeliings hurt and toes stomped on in that phase, especially because as the group dynamic often changes people sometimes feel the urge to re-assert their identity.
I do agree that maybe "outing" was an issue but I have never, ever thought of the Scooby Gang as prejudicial so that idea never really stands to much scruntiny in my mind

I agree with Xita, they do need to learn to argue. I have never known relationships were the parties don't argue whether the people are straight or gay. I know I can't make it thru without the odd decent arguement.
But then maybe thats just me

[Thanatopsis]

I'd always wondered something about the whole arguement from Tough Love. With Tara being unbrain sucked and Buffy dying, did it ever get dealt with? I'm assuming not. Things needed to be done and so they just fell into them and dealt with them. Also its most likely that Willow saw it (consciously or not) as a way to not be the "Junior Partner" or at least show that she was strong, that she did know some things. And Tara let her. I realize that she was chosen as the "Boss of the Group", but at the same time, Tara was completely against bringing Buffy back, which she states and yet she goes along with it because that's what Willow wants. And while everyone says they want to, we all know that when push came to shove, it was Willow that made it happen. Not just magickly, but in terms of pursuing it.

I realize I didn't exactly address the topic of this thread, but I'm curious as to what people think about the Tough Love arguement in relation to the "power" issue, especially in terms of the summer after.

I apologize if I'm out of line for adding this to the discussion.

------------------
Kind of an unusual name. There's hardly any except Warren Beatty and, you know, President Harding. It's probably not either of them.
~Willow in IWMTLY

Love is like a dead fish: That may sound unromantic, but no one has disagreed with me yet.
-Jim Hibbeler

[cachaco]

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
Willow has mistaken maturity with unbending will. Since Tara's bout with Glory, Willow has been unable to show weakness.

---

Wow, xita, that's a really great insight. I think it cuts through a lot of the debate about Willow's magic abuse being about insecurity vs. power by showing how the two sides of the coin are related. This confusion of maturity and unyieldingness would have been exacerbated by having to serve as the Scooby leader in Buffy's absence. Little wonder then that she's manifesting issues that look on the surface like they're about power. Also, this lends support to the idea that "Smashed" [edited to say: "Wrecked," right, of course, thanks, Warduke!] was the low point for Willow, because she finally allowed herself to ask for help after crashing the car. Seen from this perspective, that moment is the high/low point of an arc that leads back toward recovery.

Thanks Autumn for starting this thread, it's a fascinating topic. I'm enjoying reading folks' responses...ahhh, the kitten, a true haven on the Internet.

------------------
PASTURE: See... that is, where you are a mockup. With I think on..., you grew up to what, and... then regard I, which you form... it me are proud. It educates me to love you more.

[This message has been edited by cachaco (edited February 20, 2002).]quote:

[Warduke]

Actually cachaco, the car crash was in Wrecked.

[judy]

Oh no no no no no.

Let's not recreate the binary that says male/power/top/butch vs. female/submissive/bottom/femme. That's not what S/M or butch/femme is about. In my lived experience, they are about interrogating and subverting and playing with power dynamics, not recreating them.

I know plenty of femme tops who would resent the assumptions in the binary you posted, Willowlicious. Top/Bottom and Butch/Femme are much more complicated than a spin off of traditional heterosexual power dynamics. But I am aware this is way OT so I will shut up now.

*is tired of being the one to always speak up about the above issues and then feeling like a broken record and imagining kitties groaning in annoyance*

[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 20, 2002).]

[xita]

I agree with what you said Judy, those dychotomies are all too simple and it is a lot more complicated. I was just going to ignore all that not because the issues aren't important to me but because I didn't want this interesting thread to end up in debates about butch/femme and top/bottom. Though it's fine with me as well but I think it's a completely different discussion/thread.

Besides we have to be careful with that whole area because I don't think W/T see themselves in those terms at all.

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cachaco:
Wow, xita, that's a really great insight. I think it cuts through a lot of the debate about Willow's magic abuse being about insecurity vs. power by showing how the two sides of the coin are related. This confusion of maturity and unyieldingness would have been exacerbated by having to serve as the Scooby leader in Buffy's absence. Little wonder then that she's manifesting issues that look on the surface like they're about power. Also, this lends support to the idea that "Smashed" was the low point for Willow, because she finally allowed herself to ask for help after crashing the car. Seen from this perspective, that moment is the high/low point of an arc that leads back toward recovery.

Thanks Autumn for starting this thread, it's a fascinating topic. I'm enjoying reading folks' responses...ahhh, the kitten, a true haven on the Internet.

---

I do think the asking for help after the car crash was a HUGE step for Willow. She not only admitted she had a major problem, but allowed herself to be weak, reaching out to/leaning on someone. I also tend to think that that probably was her rock bottom. Sure, she may backslide some. But that was the point that scared her enough to start turning things around and start back on an upward track.

And I, like Xita, am very much looking forward to a scene where Tara's holding Willow in bed

quote:

[Zahir]

I think you've made good points, Autumn, but there's one little point I'd like to make.

The idea that "equal partners" means no one is ever dominant or submissive seems to me a bit simplistic. I've got to see any relationship as dynamic, with a certain amount of power-play going back and forth. Which doesn't imply any kind of B&D or S&M (not that there's anything wrong with that), nor does it mean the people involved don't respect each other. Rather, its part of an emotional dance where each person has a "turn" leading at different times, depending on where the dance goes. Simply because people have different strengths. Willow, for example, may well be smarter than Tara. She's certainly more combat-savvvy. Tara, on the other hand, seems quite a bit wiser, and more of a people-person that Willow.

Just something I wanted to mention.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[kitten scout]

I believe that with each of them maturing, they will both find their own strengths. These strengths, when brought together, will create a balance. I'm looking foreward to this loving, balanced reunion!

[tommo]

Hmmm, interesting topic and interesting replies. However, I'm perhaps unpopular because I believe that all relationships have some element of power within them. I think the strengths in a relationship come when a balance of that power is found. And I also think it's true that in all relationships, there is the situation of one person leading and the other following. Of course, that's a dynamic that should be interchangeable. A good relationship has been described to me as a dance, with one person leading sometimes, and the other following sometimes, each willing to lead and follow when the situation requires. The two dancers of course, are in perfect step with one another.

And I think that's possibly the issue with Willow and Tara. They got out of step; lost the rhythm of their dance. Certainly, Willow assumed the position of leader when Tara was incapacitated by Glory, and I'm not sure she ever really stopped thinking that perhaps it was her time to let Tara lead.

I would like to have seen the relationship during the time just after Buffy's death. I loved that scene with Willow holding Tara up in The Gift, and then Tara supporting Willow when they saw Buffy's body. To me, that was a near-perfect view of how they should be. But I think Willow forgot that. And she hardened somewhat, took on the role of assumed leader, not just in the relationship, but in the Scoobies. And you know, I don't think that was very good for her, and clearly not good for the relationship.

I think what we're seeing now is Willow's ability to be both weak and strong. She no longer carries the responsibility of the Scoobies on her shoulders, but has learned to merely carry her own responsibilities. I think this has helped her to mature in a short space of time, showing that she can and will be a useful partner in a relationship with Tara.

Hmm. I might write more later. I've kind of lost my train of thought right now. Dammit. Bloody Tesco's. Heh.

------------------
Sweetie...I'm a fag.

[Dr.G]

Oh goodie. I have waited long enough with my reply that I can just say: "what Ruth said."

[Willowlicious]

I've got a terrible migraine, so I don't know if I'll make any sense. The light from the computer hurts my eyes, but the pressure from laying my head on a pillow is agony, so here I sit. Sigh.

I just wanted to briefly say that I rarely see grief mentioned as one of the contributing factors in Willow's downfall. You've hinted at it, Ruth, and Bob did as well in his Willow essay in another thread. I think it's very plausible that the devastation of Buffy's death coming immediately after she thought she lost Tara, caused Willow to shut down and isolate her emotions from the others. Including Tara. She went into Ultra Protecto Gal mode and tried to run the Scooby patrols and figure out how to bring Buffy back. I see her as being obsessed with it and rarely if ever discussing her deepest feelings of loss with Tara. At first it was too much to talk about and she probably didn't want to burden Tara who was recovering from Glory's attack. Then she decided she was going to "fix it," so what's to talk about. "I'm fine, it'll be fine, we're all gonna be fine."

In my head, this explains how Tara made the leap from "don't mess with Mother Nature" to "I know it's wrong, but we agreed." I think she was terrified for Willow.

Then, when Willow did bring Buffy back, Giles berated her, Buffy rejected her and Tara started voicing her concerns about the magick. Given what Bob so articulately wrote about Willow's need for affection and approval, I think this pushed her right over the edge. She literally reversed the laws of nature to bring her dearest friend back. She did it out of profound love for Buffy and for all of her friends and she didn't even get a "thank you." Again, she barely admitted this to Tara in "Afterlife." Tara had to put the words in her mouth.

Anyway, I just think that Buffy's death caused a major breakdown of communication in W/T's relationship and it was allowed to get out of hand because Willow had taken the lead up until that point. They both need to talk about a lot of things.

Well, I guess I wasn't very brief. I've got more to say and a few things I want to clarify, but...I'm trying to keep my cookies down. I HATE migraines!

Amy

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 20, 2002).]

[Eyes Without A Face]

*moved this to the appropriate willow and magic thread

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 20, 2002).]

[tommo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr.G:
Oh goodie. I have waited long enough with my reply that I can just say: "what Ruth said."

---

Heh. Oh Garfield. Every word? Even the Tesco's part?

------------------
Sweetie...I'm a fag.quote:

[Web Warlock]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willowlicious:
I HATE migraines!

---

Preaching to the choir here!
I've been popin vicadin like they are M&Ms.

Related to this thread.
I was reading some wierd stuff on Usenet (no really?). I have seen a lot of posts of people liking Tara much more now that she seems the "senior partner". Some of those posts are even from self-professed Tara-haters.

I am hoping that the resolution to this is Willow and Tara together as equals, cause that is the only way it will work out.

Warlock. (who is oddly migraine free today.)

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"What the hell is your problem?" - Ozzy Osbourne to me, Feb. 1996quote: