Discussion – S6E15 – "As You Were"

[kitten scout]

Really enjoyed the Willow/Dawn talk! I'm glad Buffy finally woke up and realized how bad her relationship with Spike is. Can't hardly wait for next week!!

[Willowlicious]

I liked this ep a lot. As mentioned by others, Riley's appearance provided a reference point for X/A's wedding and served to highlight for Buffy how wrong her relationship with Spike is. Her stepping into the light at the end was wonderful. It was a symbolic ray of hope shone upon what has been, thus far, a black, hopeless season. And not just for Buffy, but also for...

Willow! It was SO terrific to see her happy. She cracked me up when she made that taunt about X/A's wedding. Her tone was completely free of malice and it was cool to hear her joke about something (and someone) that was a huge part of her "insecure past" with such a genuinely light heart. It made me believe she was starting to heal. Not just the addiction, we've seen that progress already, but to heal her heart. I'm probably reading way too much into her few lines, but, to me, her tone sounded like that of a person who realizes that, "All is NOT lost and so much of what I was worried about was SOOO not the point. I'm ready to let things go that have plagued me for YEARS." Of course, Tara is a HUGE part of her attitude adjustment, but I think she's really made some strides on her own.

That said, I can't wait for more Tara episodes!!!

I also can't wait for the wedding episode next week. The preview looked fantastic!

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"In this life we hunger for those we cannot touch. All the thoughts unuttered and all the feelings unexpressed, play upon our hearts like the mist upon our breath."

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 26, 2002).]

[GODisTigger]

As for that co-worker of Buffy's, one thought kept running through my head when I saw him:

"There's never a Penis Headed Demon Wig Wearing Old Lady around when you need her is there?"

D

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They have Dial-A-Prayer for atheists now. You call up but nobody answers.

[Ari]

I thought there was actually a pretty interesting contrast in the ep, not just between Riley and Spike/Buffy and Sam and all that. But more accurately between Buffy and Willow.

Going back to Wrecked, they made such a point of thematically connecting what the two of them were going through. And at the end, they both resolved to stay away from their respective vices. The difference, of course, is that Willow meant it.

And she's done the time and worked and gone through the rough times and now she's starting to see a glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel. But she's still remembering what got her there, still being patient and still working at it even though it's hard. But she's starting to see the rewards of her patience in Tara's changing attitude and that makes all the difference for her, I think. Kind of like with Sam, a little genuine, unsolicited encouragment can go a long way.

And then there's Buffy, whose resolve to stay away from Spike lasted, what, about 12 hours or so? And so, while she has made some positive steps, she hasn't commited herself to working out her problems and doing the requisite suffering that comes with that. So instead of progress, she's just one step forward, two steps back. No light. Not even a tunnel - 'cause tunnels at least have some kind of direction.

Watching Willow all happy and giddy at the Bronze just made it that much more noticable how horribly unhappy and, well, stagnant Buffy was when they cut to her in the basement, trying to get out the grass stain from her latest escapade with Spike.

What I hope is the end of this ep signifies Buffy finally finding the resolve to put the hurtful behavior (to both of them, really) to a stop and hopefully find a way to give her life a direction. Because if she doesn't, that poor girl is headed for a breakdown of truly epic proportions.

Ari

[BBOvenGuy]

Hearing the word "bint" makes me think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail - "If I went around saying I was an emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"

I'm still 13 minutes away from seeing the episode, but I still wanted to make one comment on the "Spike's not The Doctor" bit. If we weren't supposed to think that Spike was The Doctor, there would have been a scene with Spike talking to some shady character or some similar hint to suggest that there was more to the story than what we were being told. That's one of the rules of good storytelling - play fair with the audience.

As it is, it sounds like this whole business of "The Doctor" is a one-off that reminds Buffy exactly who it is she's been messing around with. Spike even says that she's always known who he is, or something like that.

Again, I haven't seen the episode yet, so my opinion may change - but from where I'm sitting it looks like Spike is indeed The Doctor.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 26, 2002).]

[GODisTigger]

I wonder if there was any continuation after Willow's Hence the Happy, just before they cut away to Buffy's basement it looks like she was about to say or do something.

D

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They have Dial-A-Prayer for atheists now. You call up but nobody answers.

[SiWangMu]

I completely agree that if we weren't supposed to think Spike was the Doctor, we would've seen something to indicate that.... unless they were saving it for a future episode. Sorta unintentional cliffhanger-y. Okay, this storyline isn't like my crusade or anything, I just wanted to note that somewhat technical point. It would be cool if it was Warren... I just always get happy when shows know their own history and reference it like that would be.

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"I think this line's mostly filler"

"Tara: I do not know in other things concerning everyone, but, the chicken is loved."

[darvangi]

Douglas Petrie is the man! I loved both the writing and directing of this episode, though I agree with April that Sam did have some cheesey lines - maybe it was intentional. The pace of the ep was quick and exciting like days of yore and a nice contrast to the slow, somber feel of many eps this season.

Willow was rocking with the giddiness and humor. I wish she could have done something to help, though - they need to continually establish that she can be a productive scoobie without magic. And Dawn was nicely un-whiney, while still being girlish, so that's some good writing for her character.

I thought the bathroom scene with X/A was very sweet and it reminded me of the Anya/Tara scene in The Yoko Factor in Giles' bathroom.

Yes, PLEASE let this be the end of Buffy's stay at the Doublemeat. I got some laughs out of her stint there and I could definitely sympathize because of my own food service work, but I want to see her move on to a better job, especially with the let down of not applying in time to go back to school.

I'm looking forward to next week's ep - Tara! In a horrible bride's maid dress! I'm going to be laughing throughout the whole ep because just the sight of those awful dresses cracks me up.

[PF26]

quote:

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Originally posted by SiWangMu:
I completely agree that if we weren't supposed to think Spike was the Doctor, we would've seen something to indicate that.... unless they were saving it for a future episode.

It would be cool if it was Warren... I just always get happy when shows know their own history and reference it like that would be.

---

I'm thinking that this is the case. Remember Spike tried to say he was just watching them for someone /else/. How many someone elses does he know these days? Clem, and the Troika, everyone else seems out to get him, like Teeth the loan shark. He's pretty much an outcast all around.

It would also mean if the Troika was dealing with foriegn military powers they are getting a lot 'badder', which would make sense.

If the Troika *are* The Doctor, I wonder how much Buffy *not* listening to Spike's explaination is going to cost everyone ...

PF26
quote:

[AutumnT]

I can see no logical reason for Spike having anything to do with Warren or keeping eggs for him. I think by Spike's reactions to being found out it is obvious it was his own little scheme. Just Spike being, well, Spike as Buffy pointed out often enough in the episode.

God it was great to have some of the old Willow back. I've always liked her best friend attitude moments and that last line of hers Hannigan just nailed. Very very funny.

Plus so so happy so see Willow's reactions in the Tara talk with Dawn. Sure Dawn is a W/T shipper - the last time she had a somewhat happy home was when she was living with the two of them choosing funny shapes or rounds and getting through their troubles as a family. Now she gets a cold smushed burger and a sink full of dishes for ambiance. And she's always left alone. When she was with Willow and Tara they at least made sure someone was with her when they were not. Whether Dawn liked it or not, and now we see she misses that.

I also really enjoyed that last scene and Buffy finally having the strength to make the right decision and walking into the light she so needs in her life (as opposed to dark stains that won't come out). And I'm glad they had her say "William" because I read that as her apologizing to the part she did see as human in him, the part she knew she was hurting.

And the preview. I'm thinking some major funny next.

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Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[The Rose]

According to my American Heritage College Dictionary:

BINTCHIEFLY BRITISH & OFFENSIVE A WOMAN OR GIRL

You can check behind me if you don't believe me.

Spike calls her this when he is bragging to Riley about doing Buffy.

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited February 27, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited February 27, 2002).]

[BBOvenGuy]

Okay, I've seen the episode, and my opinion hasn't changed. I saw absolutely nothing that would suggest The Doctor is anyone but Spike.

You, of course, can go on waiting for some big stunning revelation down the road which will reveal that The Doctor is someone else. But then, people have been waiting two years for Tara to be killed. People have been waiting almost four years for Xander to pay for his "big lie" in the Season 2 finale. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. If it does, then I will gladly admit I was wrong - but I'm not holding my breath.

The key to whether or not Spike is The Doctor is also the key to the decision Buffy makes at the end of the episode. It's Spike's line when he's discovered:

quote:

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You know what I am, you've always known, but you come to me all the same.

---

Spike is a vampire. He's evil, by his own admission and without repentance. He may be in love with Buffy - the way vampires understand "love" - but that doesn't change who he is. He says so himself.

I'm not saying there can never be a healthy romantic Buffy/Spike relationship ever, because there are all sorts of tricks Joss can pull out of his hat that might send the characters down new directions. But the way they are right now made what we saw tonight inevitable.

More to say later...

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)quote:

[xita]

Watching the show, I am shocked that people wouldn't think Spike isn't the doctor. His expression told me all I needed to know. And I changed my metaphor, he was selling drugs to children, he was trafficking nuclear weapons (from the description of how it could be used by governments to destroy entire towns.

Anyway on to the good stuff, Sam, total butch tendencies, she must swing both ways.

Willow, giddy, and funny so cute! She is finally seeing that life can be good again. It's good to see and yes like someone said earlier a nice contrast to Buffy who is finding no joy in life.

[Thanatopsis]

Good episode, even though there was no Tara. I wasn't sure about Riley returning, but having closure is always nice. It also gave Buffy a nice kick in the ass to maybe get her life in order. I love her reaction to seeing Riley at work. "My hat has a cow on it."

Giddy Willow is always nice to see. I really missed that, as well as Best Friend Willow. The whole "What a bitch!" definitely had me laughing. Her whole thing with Dawn at the Bronze was nice. She and Tara have hope and Dawn forgave her. Almost all is right in the world. And her reaction to Sam in the living room and then in the kitchen was great.

The thing about Spike being The Doctor. I think a lot of people don't want him to be bad. If he was just being greedy and not knowing the exact consequences would be one thing, but him being greedy and not caring who he kills, well it reminds us that Spike is evil. He's still a vampire, chip or not. I think its a nice way to remind Buffy and us. Nobody wants Spike to be bad because we can't like a character that is evil.

Looking forward to the wedding. Poor X/A hiding in the bathroom. I like that their reaction to stress is the same, the eating, while unhealthy, maybe it means they are meant to be together.

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Kind of an unusual name. There's hardly any except Warren Beatty and, you know, President Harding. It's probably not either of them.
~Willow in IWMTLY

[This message has been edited by Thanatopsis (edited February 27, 2002).]

[geekgod]

i have a quick, desperate request. if anybody has this episode on their computer could they e-mail me at geekgod1226@hotmail.com or im me on AIM at geekgod1226. my vcr decided to be stupid and we missed the episode. it would be greatly appreciated. please. please. please...

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"i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"i worship beelzebub! i do his bidding. do you see any goats around? no! because i sacrificed them! all bow before SATAN!"

[PF26]

Just wanted to say for the sake of discussion,

If the name of the person behind the scheme had have been /anything/ but a blatent Sci-Fi reference, I wouldn't have given it a second thought about it being wholly Spike behind it. And yet ... the Troika have even gone so far as to make mention of Doctor Who in one or two of the episodes, which is what sent my alarm bells ringing.

Also Riley stated to Buffy that the eggs were going to be sold to 'Foreign Military'. Does Spike have /those/ kind of contacts? I seriously think it seems a lot more up the Troika's alley to have the means to disburse something to foriegn military powers than Spike would

I just have a gut feeling that there are larger forces at play in this, that tie into the season story arc.

PF26

[Rally]

quote:

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Originally posted by PF26:
If the name of the person behind the scheme had have been /anything/ but a blatent Sci-Fi reference, I wouldn't have given it a second thought about it being wholly Spike behind it. And yet ... the Troika have even gone so far as to make mention of Doctor Who in one or two of the episodes, which is what sent my alarm bells ringing.

---

And we care because...Spike is such a great guy?
Or because Spike is a murderous villian.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[This message has been edited by Rally (edited February 27, 2002).]quote:

[Warduke]

Does it even matter if Spike's not the one actually selling them? He knew what they were, what they could do, yet did he care? Hell no, he's a vampire, why should he care?

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 27, 2002).]

IP: Logged

Wiccagrrl
Gay Now!


Posts: 1829
Registered: Sep 2000 posted February 27, 2002 00:42               

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Yeah, that's the thing...even if he's in on it with the Troika, and not the instigator...he still seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on. The point that he's not one of the good guys is still there, even if he wasn't acting alone.

IP: Logged

PF26
Blessed Wannabe


Posts: 5
Registered: Feb 2002 posted February 27, 2002 00:44            

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rally:
And we care because...Spike is such a great guy?
Or because Spike is a murderous villian.

---

Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika, which IMO is not Of The Good. If the Troika are possibly dealing with 'foriegn military' things could get oh-ugly for the SG by the end of the season. I guess that was my point, moreso than anything else.

My point has never been so much about Spike, but about what the larger picture could be as far as season end 'big badness' is concerned.

PF26

IP: Logged

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 27, 2002).]IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now!


Posts: 1829
Registered: Sep 2000 posted February 27, 2002 00:42               

---

Yeah, that's the thing...even if he's in on it with the Troika, and not the instigator...he still seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on. The point that he's not one of the good guys is still there, even if he wasn't acting alone.

IP: Logged

posted February 27, 2002 00:42                Yeah, that's the thing...even if he's in on it with the Troika, and not the instigator...he still seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on. The point that he's not one of the good guys is still there, even if he wasn't acting alone.IP: LoggedPF26Blessed Wannabe


Posts: 5
Registered: Feb 2002 posted February 27, 2002 00:44            

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Rally:
And we care because...Spike is such a great guy?
Or because Spike is a murderous villian.

---

Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika, which IMO is not Of The Good. If the Troika are possibly dealing with 'foriegn military' things could get oh-ugly for the SG by the end of the season. I guess that was my point, moreso than anything else.

My point has never been so much about Spike, but about what the larger picture could be as far as season end 'big badness' is concerned.

PF26

IP: Logged

posted February 27, 2002 00:44            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rally:
And we care because...Spike is such a great guy?
Or because Spike is a murderous villian.

---

Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika, which IMO is not Of The Good. If the Troika are possibly dealing with 'foriegn military' things could get oh-ugly for the SG by the end of the season. I guess that was my point, moreso than anything else.

My point has never been so much about Spike, but about what the larger picture could be as far as season end 'big badness' is concerned.

PF26

quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Yeah, that's the thing...even if he's in on it with the Troika, and not the instigator...he still seemed to know quite a bit about what was going on. The point that he's not one of the good guys is still there, even if he wasn't acting alone.

[PF26]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rally:
And we care because...Spike is such a great guy?
Or because Spike is a murderous villian.

---

Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika, which IMO is not Of The Good. If the Troika are possibly dealing with 'foriegn military' things could get oh-ugly for the SG by the end of the season. I guess that was my point, moreso than anything else.

My point has never been so much about Spike, but about what the larger picture could be as far as season end 'big badness' is concerned.

PF26

quote:

[Rally]

quote:

---

Originally posted by PF26:
Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika,

---

I think they got that the Troika was dangerous when they commited RAPE and MURDER.

Which BTW has zero to do with mister zero himself, Spike. So feel sorry for Spike if you like, I will just feel sorry for those of you who feel sorry for Spike.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[This message has been edited by Rally (edited February 27, 2002).]quote:

[salsashark]

Spike is a soulless demon that exists only to kill and maim humans. He may be chipped, but it's only as if he were chained to a wall. If that chain should break, or someone stray inside it's reach, Spike would kill that person without any qualm whatsoever.

He would gladly release the spawn just to watch the ensuing carnage he himself could not create.

[PF26]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rally:
So feel sorry for Spike if you like, I will just feel sorry for those of you who feel sorry for Spike.

---

Is there a valid reason for this seeming hostility to my theory? Is it because perhaps I'm assumed to be a B/Ser? Have to say I am /not/.

I'd been thinking about registering, but honestly, if this is the sort of reply someone feeling out the water around here gets, I don't know what to say.

As a 'Lesbian Wicca', I've enjoyed watching the discussion on this board, and finally tendered a thought, is there any reason, that you feel the need to be so adversarial about it?

That said, I'm personally /glad/ the B/S ship is over. I'm not very fond of it in the least.

PF26
quote:

[Warduke]

I thought I'd do something nice for Spike, since he's such a great guy...

What's that you may ask? Well that's the world's smallest violin and it's playing My Heart Bleeds For You

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by PF26:
Because once again, I think the Scoobs are missing puzzle peices/underestimating the Troika, which IMO is not Of The Good. If the Troika are possibly dealing with 'foriegn military' things could get oh-ugly for the SG by the end of the season. I guess that was my point, moreso than anything else.

My point has never been so much about Spike, but about what the larger picture could be as far as season end 'big badness' is concerned.

---

Ah, but you see, you're missing the big picture, which is this - on Buffy the big picture is actually the little picture.

Joss Whedon doesn't care about spinning big conspiracy yarns. He doesn't care about big, complicated uber-plots. His concern is with the internal - with what his characters are thinking and feeling and experiencing. Yes, he could spin some big plot with Spike and the Nerd Trio and George W. Bush's "Axis of Evil" (tm) for that matter, but he's not going to. There's no time for him to do that and still cover what's going on with Buffy and her friends on a personal level.

If you want big uber-plots, watch X-Files or Babylon 5 reruns. They're quite good. Buffy has never played that game, and they're certainly not going to start now.

As for the hostility you're experiencing, I would venture to guess that it's because you're vehemently defending a position that doesn't appear to have any substance behind it. If you really have been lurking here, you should remember that we've been through a lot of that lately.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)quote:

[Rally]

quote:

---

I'd been thinking about registering, but honestly, if this is the sort of reply someone feeling out the water around here gets, I don't know what to say.
[/B]

---

Um yes, lets see;

A) This is a Willow / Tara board not a Spike apologists board.

B) Registering is a quick and painless process and would help with your credibility.

*** Cease fire Len, just saying my peace.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Who, in discussing the possibility that Spike might not be the only one involved, EVER said they felt sorry for him? Or that that would let him off the hook? I sure as heck didn't, neither did the poster who suggested the idea. Why are people being so quick to jump down the throats of their fellow posters?

[Ari]

I don't think the point was necessarily whether Spike was 'the Doctor' or not, but that he was unrepentantly involved in the whole thing to begin with. If the Nerd Herd had been involved, I would think they would find some way to let the audience know it even if it was a secret from the Scoobies. It makes no sense to hide it. Any more than it would make sense for Spike to be involved with them after knowing they are trying to hurt Buffy.

He wouldn't care about raping and killing people, but he would take issue with them doing something to Buffy. That's part of what makes him such a conflicted character.

When I keep reading on other boards people being so surprised and upset by what happened tonight, I just keep thinking that Tara (compliments of Fury) pretty much called it over a year ago, I think it was in Crush.

"But it can't end like that. He had no moral compass. No sense of 'right'. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back.

Plus, you can tell it's not going to have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy."

I do think that Buffy telling Tara and her support is part of what helped Buffy find the strength to end things with Spike. When she was on her knees crying "Please don't forgive me." I got the feeling she was wanting Tara to tell her it was wrong and make the decision for her. She didn't want to have to search her own conscience and find the strength to make the decision for herself.

I'm glad to see her able to do that.

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited February 27, 2002).]

[Hugin]

Just a reminder folks, please keep things calm and respectful. Tonight's ep probably made quite a number of folks happy and quite a number of folks sad, but if people want to go to war about things, there are other boards to have those battles on.

In a few days we'll probably have a shooting script or a comment from one of the Mutant Enemy folks, and we'll know pretty clearly if Spike was supposed to truly be the Doctor or not anyway.

-len

[PF26]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rally:
Um yes, lets see;

A) This is a Willow / Tara board not a Spike apologists board.

B) Registering is a quick and painless process and would help with your credibility.

---

A.) I'm not a Spike appologist. And yes, this is a Willow/Tara board, and I was presenting a possible theory that I felt would affect /all/ of the Scoobs, meaning Willow and Tara too, as well as Xander, Anya, Dawn, and Buffy.

B.) Done.

PF26 -- Registered.
quote: