Willow and Tara, more "love"

[Wondergrrl]

I'm a big fan of tara and wilow, infact, I think they should have a whole episode, and let them show them actually kissing, even having sex(Yes, I'm a girl).I love the birthday episode, but I never see the kissing, whereas, with buffy and spike, its so different.It isn't fair I tell you!O, I like tara more than willow, and they should really tell more about her.

[xita]

I am hoping that the buffy shagfest left it open for our girls to actually show more affection and I am owed a kiss because of Tabula Rasa.. it's like I look at that picture and I keep waiting for their lips to meet.

[LadyJ]

Well...that was riveting.
[Yells] Lulu! Lulu where are you?

Um anyway..yeah, we like both the girls some like one more than another. As for the sex part well some key advertisers still have issues with that.

[shellybean]

I KNOW!!! that Tabula Rasa thing almost killed me! I kept thinking 'if only Xander stepped on that crystal a few seconds later!'

[LBJM]

the buffy and spike kissing is just lust. willow and tara are just soo much deeper then that.
LBJM

[tommo]

Mmmm. Deeper. Great word.

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.

[Under Her Spell]

I've always been one who thinks we should see more W/T kissage; but then again, I do think they've been OTT with the B/S stuff. With Buffy and Riley it wasn't just lust, yet we got some fairly steamy scenes.

But I think it's really up to Amber and Aly to decide; I mean, Amber's never had sex, so maybe she'd shy away from simulating it on TV?

But I do think they need to play on the passionate side of W/T more; Willow was never really passionate with Oz, but that was understandable - surely with Tara there should be more of the heat we saw in Season 4?

Oh dear. I can't believe I just used the phrase 'streamy scenes'. I'll just go and write for the tabloids right now, shall i?

[xita]

Ok, first, let's not speculate about the actress' motivations especially as they relate to their love lives.

And before any rumors get started, Aly and Amber have never expressed ANY reluctance to do anything loving towards one another. Quite the contrary Amber expressed a desire to have them kiss more and Aly expressed frustration at the limitations the wb had on them.

So the facts reflect that the only reason the portrayal has not been more graphic was the heavy restrictions at the WB and networks in general. Let's remember Joss threatened to quit because they wouldn't let him show the kiss, let's remember Marti has stated that a naked love scene is perhaps the next way they plan to expand the network's restrictions.

[Kendahl897]

Love that Marti.

[Dr.G]

Ah hum Under her Spell, I take it you haven't read the Chance script.

Go Marti.

[Sheila]

Oh xita I so agree with you about the Tabula Rasa almost-kiss... doesn't matter how many times I see that scene, the magnetism there is so strong that I feel like it's even pulling me towards them (uhmmm, me, Willow and Tara... oh my... ).

I also think that they should show more of their intimate moments, but remember people, there's still hope! By personal experience, we all know that there's nothing better than make-up sex... We can imagine all the love and passion that's been building up inside our girls, besides how much Willow think she hurt Tara and will try everything to make up for that. Yep, definetely good perspectives for the future...

As much as I want to see everything that it's in my mind on my TV screen and get as frustrated as everybody else when I don't, I can't help but be very grateful that they, finally, started showing a healthy, real, loving lesbian relationship in primetime TV network. Buffy is not Queer as Folk, both shows have completely different purposes and audiences. And, even if I do love QaF, I think Buffy's step towards showing gay characters on TV was more important in several ways. It came out first. It is a network show, not cable. It is not a show directed to a gay audience. It portrayed the gay couple fitting so naturally into the storyline that many people didn't realize in the beginning that they're really gay and, even after that, didn't cared much because it looked... right (please, note that here I am talking from a heterosexual-who-doesn't-really-like-seeing- gay-people-on-TV point of view, not mine).

Sheila

[Willowlicious]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
Ok, first, let's not speculate about the actress' motivations especially as they relate to their love lives.

And before any rumors get started, Aly and Amber have never expressed ANY reluctance to do anything loving towards one another. Quite the contrary Amber expressed a desire to have them kiss more and Aly expressed frustration at the limitations the wb had on them.

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I'm very much with Xita on this one. Ummm...Aly and Amber are ACTORS! They perform for money (that sounds worse than I intended) and, hopefully, for love of the craft. When you become an actor, I would suppose you'd pretty much expect to end up in physically intimate situations with all types of people onscreen. I'm not saying that kissing people is always easy or that doing sex scenes is fun (I understand it's rather uncomfortable)...but it's a common and UNDERSTOOD part of the job. I'm also not saying that it's hard for Aly to kiss Amber and vice versa (because that would be, you know, insane ) and that they're just brave little toasters soldiering on for their art or something. I'm saying I think it is a complete NON-ISSUE for them. I've gotten no indication from anything I've ever read (and god have I read a lot) that either Aly or Amber have the slightest problem with showing W/T intimacy onscreen. I've gotten the impression that they are willing and even eager to do whatever the script dictates and hope that they get to do more. I think they truly respect the characters they portray and the love Willow and Tara have for each other and want more chances to show that love onscreen. Their personal lives have nothing to do with it. Why on earth would they?

At some point, I think the script is going to dictate quite a bit more than what we've seen so far. They really pushed the TV envelope with the B/S sex scenes (which were performed with great professionalism by SMG and JM, thank you). I think Marti will probably try to use some of the extra wiggling room they created with those scenes to show more W/T goodness. Knowing what I know about Marti, I don't think she can resist.

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 02, 2002).]quote:

[shellybean]

At least they're getting a lot more freedom this season on the UPN to do normal couply things like kiss in the morning...that is until they broke up.

[Under Her Spell]

Okay then! I'm not one of those people who thinks Aly or Amber have trouble doing 'lesbian scenes', so don't go off on a rant at me like I was. Other people have said that, but I never have, because I don't think there's any evidence to support it at all. Both Aly and Amber have been perfectly okay being intimate onscreen, and have never suggested they're anything but comfortable with each other, or that the fact that they're both female is anything but irrelevant.

But neither of them have ever been naked on set, or done anything I'd call a real 'sex scene'. I want to see W/T love as much as the next person, but I think it should be their personal choice what they want to do. They shouldn't have to do something they don't want to, just because of the script.

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 02, 2002).]

[xita]

I don't see anyone here suggesting they do something against their will. In fact i am sure that when Mart speaks of a "naked" scene she doesn't mean you will see their nipples on camera. Again, I see nothing in their work or their words to suggest they are unwilling to do a loving "naked" scene on television. I am also sure Marti would not even hint at it if she wasn't sure her actresses were willing to do it as she actually knows them and we do not.

[SciFiAcid]

The impression I get from Aly is that she's pretty much up for anything. From Amber, she's also up for anything that a script calls for she just gets nervous with all the people watching. Soooo, just put them together in a room with the director sans everyone else... hehe... and I think they'd do just spiffy!

[Under Her Spell]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
I don't see anyone here suggesting they do something against their will.

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In the same way I didn't see anyone suggesting Aly or Amber had a problem with kissing scenes.quote:

[Walker]

While of course not being opposed to a sex scene between our girls, , I think what has annoyed me the most isn't that this is missing. It's more that there seems to be a limit on the amount of affection that they can be seen depicting on screen. It occassionaly gets in the way of the script. The prime example of this is in Triangle where Tara has been freaking out about where Willow is when she and Buffy return to find the shop wrecked. When they find them at the bronze no kiss, no hug, nada.

I just find this unrealistic. It is incredibly cute to observe Amber's obsession with playing with Alyson's fingers any time they hold hands (which with a few exceptions seems to be what they're limited to). But I just feels that such a tactile couple should occassionally have more overt displays of affection.

Maybe a new network means we'll see some of this after they get back together. Here's hoping.

[Dr.G]

quote:

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Originally posted by Under Her Spell:
Okay then! I'm not one of those people who thinks Aly or Amber have trouble doing 'lesbian scenes', so don't go off on a rant at me like I was.

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Well I did not see anyone ranting, I saw people replying. And I must have misread, for it sounded to me like you thought they might have a problem with it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Under Her Spell:
But I think it's really up to Amber and Aly to decide; I mean, Amber's never had sex, so maybe she'd shy away from simulating it on TV?

But neither of them have ever been naked on set, or done anything I'd call a real 'sex scene'. I want to see W/T love as much as the next person, but I think it should be their personal choice what they want to do. They shouldn't have to do something they don't want to, just because of the script

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Somehow BtVS does not strike me as a show that would 'force' one of it's actors to do something they would not want to do, and in any case I am sure they can take care of themselves, so I really don't think we need to worry for their sakes.

Anyway, I really hope Marti gets to expand those restrictions. We are due one big make up smooch and hopefully something more next season.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 02, 2002).]quote:quote:

[xita]

quote:

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Originally posted by Under Her Spell:
In the same way I didn't see anyone suggesting Aly or Amber had a problem with kissing scenes.

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I don't remember saying anyone had said that. I was challenging your assertion that Amber would

quote:

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shy away from simulating it(sex) on TV

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especially when you use her sexual experience as a guidance. That kind of speculation just won't do here, it's innapropriate. So, I go by what I can speculate on, interviews, previous acting experience, etc. I see no evidence for Aly and Amber being reluctant to do such a thing.

I am also going to act quickly in defense of Amber and Aly before they get accused of being unwilling to portray lesbian sex, soon people on another board would be calling them homophobic. Notice I also used the word "portray," I am very careful with the wording because what would happen on that sound stage would hardly be simulating sex. quote:quote:

[Under Her Spell]

I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted what people have said - I haven't read all the interviews, so I don't know everything they've said on the subject.

If I've offended anyone by asking about Aly or Amber's personal choices I'm really sorry, and that wasn't my intention at all.

Edited to remove my last comment

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 02, 2002).]

[Willowlicious]

quote:

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Originally posted by Under Her Spell:
[B]Okay then! I'm not one of those people who thinks Aly or Amber have trouble doing 'lesbian scenes', so don't go off on a rant at me like I was....But neither of them have ever been naked on set, or done anything I'd call a real 'sex scene'. I want to see W/T love as much as the next person, but I think it should be their personal choice what they want to do. They shouldn't have to do something they don't want to, just because of the script.

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Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to rant. Just trying to state my position. Sorry if I came across as rant-y. Also, I deliberately left any "same sex" discussion out of my post, because I was speaking of sex scenes and onscreen intimacy in general as it relates to actors in general. We already know that neither Aly or Amber have a problem with same sex onscreen intimacy. I certainly wasn't trying to hammer down an already well-known fact.

As for sex scenes (once again, in general), BtVS is a network television show. It does not air after 10 p.m., so there is no danger of an actor being required to bare his/her ass ala NYPD Blue or anything. I imagine any sex scene with Willow and Tara would require Aly and Amber to do no more (and since there is still a double standard, probably much less) than SMG has done in her sex scenes--a bare back, the illusion of nudity, carefully placed bed sheets. They, very likely, wouldn't actually be naked. Besides, what was so "envelope-pushing" about the B/S scenes was not the nudity, but rather the grinding motions, the zipper sounds, the "O" faces, the violence. I think a W/T scene would be "pushing the envelope" (in a TV exec's mind, anyway) by simply showing them in bed together, one on top of the other, with implied nudity, kissing with abandon. Pretty tame by network TV standards for straight sex.

Anyway, I don't think Aly or Amber will be too traumatized by that. Aly, well, I think Aly likes pushing the envelope. She strikes me as a brave soul. Amber may or may not be more reticent about a big sex scene, but she and Aly seem to trust each other and the crew and I think all will be fine. It comes back to my original point...they're professional actors.

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 02, 2002).]quote:

[Under Her Spell]

I'm sorry too, Willowlicious - I wasn't talking about same sex sex either. But I can see why xita brought that into it; if ever it was suggested that Amber or Aly weren't okay with intimacy on screen in any way, then other people would make it seem like they were therefore against same sex intimacy. I didn't think that was an issue, and I was just talking about their attiutde to intimacy on screen in general - but I can see why I was wrong to bring it up.

[Dazey]

quote:

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Originally posted by Walker:
I think what has annoyed me the most...is...that there seems to be a limit on the amount of affection that they can be seen depicting on screen. It occassionaly gets in the way of the script.

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I agree that that was very true when the show was on the WB and it was extremely annoying. We talked about it quite a bit, as I recall. But the situation on UPN has been worlds better...I honestly have not felt that anything has been shied away from or that there have been unrealistic moments. I mean, we got a casual kiss in the very first ep of the season, lots of snuggling in bed, the Floating O, the steamy near-kiss in TR...and I feel confident that more is coming. So to speak.

Anyway, I strongly encourage everyone to keep speculating about that "more". I'm quite enjoying it.

Also, is it wrong that I am aroused by the phrase "pushing the envelope"?

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"We are in the love. We are...the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type."quote:

[Walker]

Dazey, I absolutely agree that things have been miles better since the move to UPN. There was just this one scene in All The Way that I would have loved to have seen played as it was written in the shooting script.

From All The Way courtesy of Psyche's Shooting Script Page. If this isn't okay to post here could a mod help me out and delete it.

TARA

Ouhh, you're feet are cold

WILLOW

Better warm me up.

She kisses Tara, tender and long. Tara responds in kind.

TARA

Mmm. Now that's the wasy a day should always end. And start. And all the stuff in the middle.

Hmmm....long tender kisses. That would have rocked if they shot it like that. Of course I would also have broken the rewind button on my video from watching it over and over and over...

Just quickly editing now that I have read Dazey's post properly. This was discussed quite a lot already as I would have known if was better at the reading of the English. So I will now drop the topic and back away slowly. Man I miss all the good stuff.

[This message has been edited by Walker (edited March 02, 2002).]

[xita]

Actually, I am glad it wasn't shot that way. This is not the thread probably but since it was brought up here. Willow kissing Tara after doing the forget spell seems kind of cold and calculating, the self-satisfying smile at the end of that scene is sometimes more than enough to creep me out. If it had stayed in, it would make my fights on USEnet a lot harder as some people seem to insist that Willow had partly done the spell so she could get some nookie that night. The way it aired, it's less about that and more about keeping the peace between them.

Ok, this one I would have liked from all the way

quote:

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WILLOW
It's just a little noisy in here
right now.

TARA
Yeah? Let me hear?

Tara puts her head next to Willow, cheek-to-cheek, listens. Willow smiles gently. Tara pulls back, returns the smile.

TARA
I can't hear it. Tell me about it.

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Ahh nice cheek to cheek action. sigh. Anyway, I think these are cuts that have more to do with time and intent and less with censors.

And yes walker, that finger obsession is one of the many reasons I love watching them together. It just never fails

UHS, about the disagreement, it wasn't anything personal, I just want to make sure that people don't walk away feeling in any way that A or A have expressed any reluctance that way. It would seem silly, but take that guy from Dawson's Creek, he plays a gay guy but has expressed many homophobic views including saying that one m/m kiss a year is more than enough for anybody. And I really trust ME not to make either one of them not do anything they weren't comfy with.quote:

[Under Her Spell]

ME? Do you mean MN? Otherwise I'm a bit confuzzled - unless you have some control over BtVS I'm not aware of, xita, in which case could we have more W/T kissage? (Just to get back on topic )

[SciFiAcid]

I'm guessing Xita means Mutant Enemy

[Under Her Spell]

Heh, that makes a lot more sense! I am silly.

[Scarecrow]

I have to agree that it is unfair to show Buffy / Riley graphicly as well as all the othe rttouchy feely monemtns between other character sbut not W/T. They need to push the envelope and i'm sure the OMWF scene was just the start...

quote:

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Originally posted by Sheila:
Buffy is not Queer as Folk, both shows have completely different purposes and audiences. And, even if I do love QaF, I think Buffy's step towards showing gay characters on TV was more important in several ways. It came out first.
Sheila

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Don't mean to be agumentative and all but Queer of Folk actually came first. I remember seeing the firts epiode and loving it; mainly cause vince was a Doctor Who fan. lol.

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The Futures Bright. The Futures Joss.
"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"Me and Willow always know how to find each other"

"There is no good, Munroe, there is no evil. There is only flesh"

"There are some corners of the Universe that have bred the most terrible things, things that stand against everything we believe in. They must be fought"quote: