General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 11

[The Godfather]

It seems to me that we should be careful about overexamining things. Much are just big hanging plot points.

That said..I truly believe that the musical is the blue print for the season. ESPECIALLY "Into The Fire".

-Shawn

[mariacomet]

Well...I do have a question with regards to that Shawn...

Okay the scene is that Willow is on the big black Semi, right?

If I read things right, she runs out of power and falls to all fours on the back of the truck.

Um, at this point then, WHO is driving the damm truck? Wouldn't the truck go out of control?

- This message brough to you by Willow's truck driving/beauty school -

[The Godfather]

*snort* You're thinking far too logically of course...

-Shawn

[AMS]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Warbird:
Very interesting point . Consider that reference has been made to Jonathon being short. Maybe this was hinting that Jonathon will be the one who somehow hits the "reset button" or whatever that brings Tara back.

---

Actually - I referenced the midgets line because the 1st story in the Illuminatus! is "Midgets vs. Digits" (or something very similar). Just shows how warped my thinking has actually become.

Ann Marie

Edited due to typing finger slippage.
And to say thanks to AngelX for stopping by!!
[This message has been edited by AMS (edited March 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by AMS (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

[AnGeL X]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lindabarlow:
Question for AngelX -- Michelle, would it be possible for you to clarify something that you said above? "Still haven't gotten any more news or any good news confirmed again...soon as the finale finishes I'll be able to post some more spoilers..."

---

My info only goes as far as ep 20. There are some details that I'm not getting into right now and I'm not going to until the show completes filming or gets close to that point. Not that I think the writers are going to change the storyline based on my spoilers being released, but I don't want to take any chances with certain elements that could be changed or removed as a result of their early release in spoilers. I really doubt they're doing more than one ending or anything, but the main spoiler I'm planning to release *could* have been changed in filming and I'd like to be sure it's not. I'm really playing it extra safe with the spoilers for 20 and trying to get as much additional confirmation on the details as possible (never can have too much), which I may be able to get more of while filming of 21/22 is going on. The additional spoilers will be on 18-20 though, unless there's a miricle and I get info for 21/22.

-Michellequote:

[The Big I-T]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Godfather:
See here's the thing for me..the part where Willow touches a book and the words bleed into her..seems she literally becomes the ensense of evil..almost like a possession of sorts..

When she finally wears down and the rage tempers..what then?

---

I think we've already been clearly told -- via Sam in AYW -- that at some point the wielder of the Dark Magicks will become completely consumed by them. "They're just gone." It was a portent of what could/would happen to Willow if she were to give herself over to the magic again.

This, I think, is one of the things Ari was alluding to by saying that Tara is likely not going to be the only dead Scoob by Ep 22. (Correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, Ari... )

There also seem to be indications via spoilers that other Scoobs may well have met their demise by then, or at least be on the verge of meeting their demise. Thus the trail of bodies seems to lead to a need for some sort of reset. But by no means does a reset mean that there won't be consequences in the aftermath. Consequences must be left in place or the whole arc was just plain unnecessary. The real question is how expansive those consequences will be, and whom they will most keenly affect. IMHO, Anya and Xander almost certainly won't be left unaffected...the whole growing up issue had, up to this point, not really begun to sink in for either of them, whereas Willow and Buffy had already made great personal strides in that department.

*Edited for a damned typo..*damned eyes*

[This message has been edited by The Big I-T (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

[Incarnadine]

All this speculation about every possible scenario and every characters part in the final yet nobody seems to be wondering what Amy's part will be. Just seems odd that they'd de-rat her after all this time merely for a few eps of magic-ing around with Willow. It also seems as though the diamond should play a large part in the final (i doubt it is the invisibility gun itself for some reason) after they made such a big deal of it, including the mystical and quantum properties it posesses.

------------------
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic.

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

[The Godfather]

I agree..but it looks to me like Willow, Anya and Spike will all make very bad choices.

I say Spike because if there IS a reset button and they had planned a redemption, they're not gonna waste that with a rewind..

So the three of them, must in some way or another, all be held accountable for their actions..

-Shawn

[Lijdrec]

I still say the Wildcard is ..... Dawn. Her storyline - though not rich - is tending towards a maturing of her character. She was powerless in The Gift, but willing to sacrifice herself for her sister and the world.

Now finally facing her human frailties and fears (remember - Nightmares), perhaps with someones help (Clem? - I have two cousins named Clem, nice guys) she may find the will, the power to control herself - to control The Key. Mix the Key with the Illluminata Diamond and you may have something wonderful (yeah, 2001 ASO).

My Spoilspec for the day.....
-------
Lynn

[lindabarlow]

Thanks for the clarification, Michelle.

I think everyone really appreciates how carefully you check and re-check your material -- it's great to have a spoiler source we can trust!

--Linda

[Nic C]

Thanks for stopping by AnGeL X.

I'm such a spoiler whore, even after all the awfulness that is the last few weeks of spoilers, I'm still dying to know what you're holding back (but I totally respect you not spilling until you're sure... see, that's what makes a good spoiler source )

Dunno if I'm swinging back through the stages of grief to denial again, but I'm thinking Trust In Joss just now. Didn't they always promise us a big Xander storyline? Well here we are, potentially getting just that. Even if this is the end of Anya on BtVS, at least EC will've got a good storyline to bow out on. At Bloody Last...

Nic

------------------
No sun, no moons, no stars over Al-Rassan.

[Tenetria]

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
Of course a gun is natural causes, not. I think maybe they mean that buffy died because of supernatural causes. There is a difference. When you say someone died of natural causes, it means health, disease, etc.

---

The guy who was talking about this played the demon in the episode. He was just paraphrasing some of the lines he had. So it's very possible that the exact wording may not have been "natural causes."

But I have to agree that if these events go down becasue of someone's wish, then the shooting would still be a supernatural event.

quote:

[All4W/T]

Someone in the 33 page spoiler thread mentioned things happening "twice"..Anya cursing Xander would be one of those "twice" things..In the Wish and apparently one of the upcoming episodes..That just kind of jumped out at me..

I didnt think Warren making the wish made alot of sense..Does anyone think that perhaps it is Willow?? It would appear if Tara is shot, she'd have the most reason for wanting vengance..

She finds Tara, Anya appears and Willows wish is granted, but it goes horribly awry...Willow phrases it in a way that gets misinterpreted or literally interpreted and all hell breaks loose..

Her wish to seek vengance on Warren goes something like this: "May all the evil you have done be cast back at you two fold" or something along those lines..There's that "two" again and it certainly would let loose alot of bad stuff..

Willow catches a "bounce" from it and becomes evil witch Willow..Setting in motion the chain of events that lead to Willows confrontation with Buffy and Xanders involvement, ie Xander is hurt/killed during said confrontation..Thus Anya wanting to make things right again undoing the wish..

Bringing back Tara and Xander in the process..

------------------
Be careful what you wish for..

[ArgyleAlex]

I have just posted this and im gonna throw it about here to. My thought is that someone wishes something and a venegance demon(hally/anya?)grants the wish. Whatever it was (Tara wanting to know how Willow would react to her if she left, or Amy wishing Willow would surrender to her power)this alt reality is thrown forward where Willow is the big bad. If it was Tara then her death would mean no-one know of the wish and that's where it gets complicated, in the end someone finds out and the wish is ended, this would work and keep all the characters for next season, tara alive and a reset. Whatcha ya'll think?
Willow:"You're right, the magics i used were very powerful, i'm very powerful so maybe it's not such a good idea to piss me off"

[The Godfather]

But why wouldn't Will just say..I wish Warren would suffer in the most horrible way possible..it sounds to me like she does much of the dirty work herself..

-Shawn

[Ari]

Shawn,

Here's a question. If Willow goes insane with DarkMagicks and winds up getting obliterated, isn't that paying a price?

It would be undone, sure, but everything she did would have been undone as well. She would have paid the price in the reality where the badness occurred.

Also, there's the very real question of how accountable she would be if she were actually insane at the time that she did those terrible things. Insanity isn't a choice or a mistake. That's sort of what distinguishes it from sanity.

Should she have to pay a price because she can be driven insane under the right circumstances?

I actually have thoughts on Spike too, but it all depends on what actually he does once he gets the chip out. I'm tempted to say that the chip is actually what gives Spike some kind of choice when it comes to controlling his evil nature. Without it, he's just another vampire who does what comes naturally. I can't see where that's terribly different from where he's at now.

The difference with Anya would be that she, as the one who initiated the whole mess to begin with, would therefore have to bear the ultimate burden of setting it right again. And paying the price for it.

Also, if there is a wish, I wouldn't expect it be anything big or even seem big to begin with. Kind of like rolling a pebble down a snowy mountain. Tiny at the top. Not so tiny at the bottom.

Ari

[The Godfather]

Even when people suffer from temporary insanity and they commit a crime, we institunionalize them recognizing their inherent danger. Maybe not for a long time but long enough top usually ensure that a repeat will not occur.

If Will did go temporarily insane (which duh), she would be absolved of the crime but she would still have the deal with the aftermath of her actions. In that scene she would be very much like Angel and Darla, two souled vamps/ex-vamps.

As for obliteratuion..the interesting think would be Joss' definition of truly what that would be..

Also, I don't agree that Anya would have to shoulder the burden of any actions that Spike does. Buffy still would have rejected no matter what wishverse..she had at the wedding and during this last ep. His actions are his own.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

[Ari]

Okay, but in the case of reset, she won't have actually done anything. If we institutionalize everyone who has the capacity to be driven insane, then who wouldn't qualify?

Should Buffy be punished for trying to kill them all in NA?

And by obliterate, I mean, as in "Willow go boom. Arrr."

*G*

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited March 24, 2002).]

[The Godfather]

In the case of a reset, obviously no..but she should be gotten real, absoloute help.

Just like an alcoholic often has a hell of a time quitting without help..Will should also have a sponsor of sorts..she's been doing this for so long..and with wellness..like I said..I was very impressed with her in NORMAL AGAIN..she COULD have saved herself but her devotion to her magical sobriety is that important to her.

That said..she should have help in this journey. Also, a consideration but Tara may need to give up magic as well in the aftermath of all of this..

Also, some instituonalization isn't neccesarily for punishment. If Will is the same girl we know..then no matter what..she's going to horrified by her own actions..to such a degree that she may need for her own good to be watched..

Of course I think the Scoobs can do that just as well.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

[Ari]

But of course it's probable that none of them would know what had happened.

She already knows that if she starts using magic again, she might get out of control and not be able to stop. That's why she wouldn't try the spell in OAFA.

Also, in the irony department, Tara had it right. You have to go through her to get to Willow.

And as far as Willow's power goes, AYW set it up to say that the fact Willow was able to pull back the first time was extraordinary. I don't see how they could pull her back from the kind of thing we're seeing described. If not, there's no reason to throw in that bit from Sam.

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited March 24, 2002).]

[The Godfather]

That just might be the ultimate consequence..one further act of magic..and darkness..

Again, I know with the alcoholic stuff but, it's kinda like one a spouse says..one more time of this and we're done..

-Shawn

[EvilAnya]

Someone in the 33 page spoiler thread mentioned things happening "twice"..Anya cursing Xander would be one of those "twice" things..In the Wish and apparently one of the upcoming episodes..That just kind of jumped out at me..

But she didn't curse Xander in The Wish. She didn't curse anyone really, she just granted Cordy her wish, though she was definitely trying to push Cordelia into wishing something against Xander.

And as for Anya's "or maybe midgets" line being a reference to Jonathon...umm, that's really really reaching, considering the fact that she was talking about whatever it was that was making them sing. The nerds had nothing to do with that.

All this speculation is beginning to remind me of all the 'paul is dead" "clues" from the beatles albums.

[greep]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Godfather:
In the case of a reset, obviously no..but she should be gotten real, absoloute help.........

---

True, but I think we'll see when the big reset happens, whatever causes it, that Willow will be stripped of all her magical powers.

quote:

[theatremouse]

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilAnya:

All this speculation is beginning to remind me of all the 'paul is dead" "clues" from the beatles albums.

---

this is what i'm thinkin, all the way.

------------------
It's horrible! That's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.quote:

[shellybean]

Yeah, I don't want to bring people down but everyone is saying WHEN the reset happens that this and that will also happen when I feel like we should still be saying IF the reset happens. I really don't want to burst any bubbles but we're all getting so invested in the fact that everything will be reset and what will happen after that, but the thing is that we don't even know that this is going to happen. We didn't even really get spoilers on this did we? We just assumed that it was the only thing possible. Sorry if I spoiled the mood.

------------------
"But with Tara, I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those" – "Family"

"Honey, in case you didn’t hear me the first six-thousand times, no more teleportation spells." – "Crush"

Willow: "I figured, life goes by so fast, if you don’t write stuff down it just gets…lost."
Tara: "Down to every last bagel"
Willow: "Down to every last everything I do with you" – "Forever"

[mariacomet]

I don't think a reset, reversal is the only way to go...I think there are scenarios that we haven't thought of.

The main point is that I think most of us on this board are desperate to find a way that Tara is not gone and/or Willow is not evil.

Why?

Speaking for myself, Willow and Tara brings me hope. It makes me hope that even in the most horrible of places, true love is possible and can survive. It makes me hope that even in choas two people can find one another. Willow's courage and innocent optimism gives me hope. Tara's ability to be generous gives me hope.

Buffy, in general, used to give me hope. Yes, there was tears and angst, but overall there was hope.

In my eyes, killing off Tara and making Willow evil, totally and completely destroys my hope...

That's all I know. People have been quoting OMWF...and I will too. I don't want to stop watching Buffy. I'm a diehard fan. I love the show. I love the characters. But I've been through hell and I believed...and if the reward for my belief is more hell...I don't think I can continue being part of Buffy.

[Peapod]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mariacomet:
I don't think a reset, reversal is the only way to go...I think there are scenarios that we haven't thought of.

The main point is that I think most of us on this board are desperate to find a way that Tara is not gone and/or Willow is not evil.

Why?

Speaking for myself, Willow and Tara brings me hope. It makes me hope that even in the most horrible of places, true love is possible and can survive. It makes me hope that even in choas two people can find one another. Willow's courage and innocent optimism gives me hope. Tara's ability to be generous gives me hope.

Buffy, in general, used to give me hope. Yes, there was tears and angst, but overall there was hope.

In my eyes, killing off Tara and making Willow evil, totally and completely destroys my hope...

That's all I know. People have been quoting OMWF...and I will too. I don't want to stop watching Buffy. I'm a diehard fan. I love the show. I love the characters. But I've been through hell and I believed...and if the reward for my belief is more hell...I don't think I can continue being part of Buffy.

---

I totally agree with everything you are saying and feeling.

I am not alone.
Peapod

quote:

[Kamil]

Okay, so I've been thinking, and chatting on the phone with a few of my long-time fannish buds and we've got one pretty important question:

Where in all of this spoilery goodness and speculation is Buffy?

Starting out in Highlander fandom I've had the privilege of listening to several versions of TV 101, as delivered by Gillian Horvath and Donna Lettow. They've done it on Usenet a few times, and their con act, aka Donna and Gillian's Dog and Pony Show is one of the hits of any con. One of the things they've stressed, stressed, and then stressed again is that no matter how much you (universal) are invested in one of the members of the supporting cast, when it comes to it, the things that happen on screen and the emotional ramifications of those acts all belong to the star. In Highlander's case, Duncan. In Buffy's, well, Buffy.

Taking 5th season HL as an example, the three themes for the season were: 'judge not, lest ye be judged'; 'pride goes before a fall'; and 'nice abs'. *eg* So when the Horsemen eps came 'round, the primary Methos fans were sure that the eps were All. About. Methos., but in reality, as much as they were about telling us something real and painful about Methos' past, they were more importantly about how Duncan reacted to learning his closest friend (and lover -- hey, most guys paint their friends noses and show up for a visit, then arrange themselves on the friend's bed, legs splayed, soft jazz playing in the background, right? ), ahem, anyway, the point of the eps was to show Duncan coping with the fact that someone he trusted, as much as trust is possible between two Immortals, had been a ruthless killer for well over a millennia -- had in fact been one of the legendary Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The one who called himself Death. Bit of a shock to everyone's system that arc was.

But back on topic here -- I think the one thing that's missing is *how* Tara's death is going to affect Buffy. How Buffy will react to that, and how *she'll* cope with DarkMagicWillow.

Interestingly enough, out of all of the spoilers we have, we have almost diddly about what Buff's doing during all of this.

I wonder why...?

I'm also distressed that when asked at cons what their favorite scenes were on Highlander, the dead ones *always* replied, "When I died, of course!". They can become quite gleeful about their death scenes -- and I'm suddenly finding that especially bothersome...

Whaaa... [grr argh voice]I need a hug.[/grr argh voice]

------------------
Kamil
--
I feel like Spike explaining the Ben/Glory connection. It's just like people to assume a story is over just because the hero is rotting in her grave. Sheesh.
Joss Whedon

[This message has been edited by Kamil (edited March 24, 2002).]

[KJ_Chicago]

I am curious that since ep. 19 is titled "Seeing Red" if any of the song was used for inspiration.

Visit Unwritten Law's web site; the graphics displayed for the CD while this song is playing are pretty symbolic (and at the site, you can hear the song played in its entirety). Eerie coincidence, this band also released "Oz Factor" in 1996.
http://www.unwrittenlaw.com/

Unwritten Law - Seein' Red

from CD "ELVA"
Release Date: 01/29/2002
Label: Interscope Records

I'm seein red.
Don't think you'll have to see my face again.
Don't have much time for feeling confused
Cause it never happens to me
You're feeling blue now
I think you bit off more than you could chew
And now it's time to make a choice
And all I want to hear is your.....

CHORUS
So, follow the leader down
And swallow your pride and drown
When there's no place left to go
Maybe that's when you will know
Follow the leader down
And swallow your pride and drown
When there's no place left to go
Maybe that's when you will know

And foolish lies
Well can't you see I tried to compromise
But what you say ain't always true
And I can see the tears in your eyes
And what you said now
Can't stop the words from running through my head
And what I'd do to get through to you
But you'd only do it again

CHORUS
So follow the leader down
And swallow your pride and drown
When there's no place left to go
Maybe that's when you will know
Follow the leader down
Yes, swallow your pride and drown
When there's no place left to go
Maybe that's when you will know

I confess, I don't know what to make from all this mess
Don't have much time for sympathy
But it never happened to me
You're feeling down now
I don't know where I'll be when you come around
And now it's time to make a choice
And all I wanna hear is your voice

[Kendahl897]

Okay, don't have a clue what's going to happen in the season finale, just know this much:
1- Tara is dead
2- Willow becomes consumed with dark magic, which if what Sam foretold is true, will destroy her
3-Anya becomes a vengance demon again
4- Spike goes to get dechipped
5- Warren is killed by Willow

Something's gotta give, cause it sure can't end this way...............

I had the thought that if a wish is granted by Anya to someone which sets the chaos into motion, then it probably will be something that is done off-screen and something that we won't learn about until the end of episode 22. To do it sooner, would give too much up too soon. Call it gut, but I'm just not ready to give up on Ed's spoilers just yet

[This message has been edited by Kendahl897 (edited March 24, 2002).]