General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 11

[Willowlicious]

Yes, Scarecrow, that makes sense. I'm with you (and Ari who has also mentioned this) in that I'm satisfied with the growth that Buffy and Willow (and others) will have reached by episode 19. I'm hoping that the writers are just planning a Wishverse scenario showing the characters at their worst in order to provide growth for Anya and Xander. Yes, Buffy will have to play significantly into the plot, because it is her show, but I still think the last few eps will be ABOUT the growth of Anya and Xander and perhaps UNDERLINED by some action of Buffy's.

As for people thinking that a Wishverse/Reset scenario somehow invalidates Willow's (or Buffy's or whoever's) growth, I don't think it has to. As we saw in "The Wish," people and circumstances in an alternate universe can be very, very different from what they are in the known Buffyverse. Take Vamp Willow, for instance. What was different in human Willow's life that caused her to be vamped in the first place? Well, there was no Buffy. No Buffy to protect her physically and no Buffy to bring out her self-confidence and teach her how to fight back, etc. She was, at best, "Season One, Episode One Willow" and, at worst, a much more terrified, beaten down and introverted Willow before she was finally killed. (I don't know exactly when she was vamped, but if she was vamped in S3, she would have had to live without Buffy in dark, scary Sunnydale for 2 1/2 years past when we saw her in S1. I think she would've been a mess.) In any case, she was not the Willow we knew in S3.

So, if Warren, for example, makes a wish to Anya, whatever he wishes for will change the people and circumstances of the Buffyverse, so that they are not as we know them now. What if his wish is simply, "I want Buffy Summers to die alone a miserable failure." (I don't think that's the wish, just an example.) Well, then the Wishverse would set about creating this exact scenario. Free will is removed. This is now Warren's will. The Wishverse is making things happen in order to fulfill his wish. The characters are playing out a scenario HE has demanded. It is no longer the natural order of things.
Suppose, the Wishverse decides that the best place to start Warren's wish is to send Tara back to Willow, who is still very early in her recovery, extremely fragile and perhaps wrongly has all her hopes pinned on Tara. The Wishverse believes that Willow is the weakest link in the Buffy chain. It plans a deathblow, the EXACT set of circumstances that will send her over the edge. Circumstances that never would have been reached if not for Warren's wish. So fragile, hopeful Willow gets suddenly eager Tara back and they make love and make love and then make some more love. Willow has more hope than ever before. She praises the universe for finally giving her the love she has craved all of her life. Then Tara is murdered. Willow feels scorned by the universe and all of her fragile, insanely high hopes come crashing down. She goes on a murderous rampage that eventually leads to her death, the deaths of other Scoobies and the death of Buffy--who is alone, miserable and a failure. Warren's wish is fulfilled and it was all started because the Wishverse preyed upon Willow's unique vulnerability, knowing it would start the chain-reaction.

To put it another way, the Wishverse is cheating. It knows all the buttons to push to get its way. The characters don't stand a chance unless they are let in on the trick. (And even then, there may be no way out. Warren's wish also ends in Warren's death.)

Using this approach, the writers can illustrate just how low the characters can go without invalidating their growth for the season, because the characters are involuntarily caught in a chain-reaction extending from Warren's wish. Can a character stop this chain-reaction if they realize what is happening? Maybe. (Giles did it, but, in this speculative scenario, Warren couldn't.) But unless they do, they are caught up in a scenario NOT OF THEIR OWN MAKING.

Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily hold Willow or anyone responsible for what happens in the Wishverse. At worst, it can mean that Willow, like anyone, can be pushed too far at the worst possible moment (not comforting, but true). Or, better, using the Vamp Willow example, it could mean that her life view was considerably changed by Warren's wish, and that wasn't OUR Willow who went on a rampage. I don't know for sure, since I don't know if there is a wish or what it is. I just know that the Wishverse provides plenty of ways to show the characters at their worst without invalidating their growth, because it is not really the character that we know.

Moreover, if Buffy and Willow et al had achieved growth before the Wishverse began, they wouldn't necessarily need to remember what happened in the Wishverse. Except for Xander, which is a problem.

Sigh. My point wasn't to speculate on all the details, but to say that the growth for the season could still be valid in a Wishverse/Reset scenario. I have no idea how the writers are going to work all this out. I wish to god I did.

Amy

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 21, 2002).]

[Ari]

Rewatching Smashed and Wrecked I saw a lot that could pass as foreshadowing for Ed's Ending (tm).

Anyone notice how much resemblence 'the house that Spuffy broke' has to Casa Summers? What's the betting that if they have a mutual annihilation smackdown it'll take place in Buffy's house. And that there will be much pretty fire involved.

Also, nice catch on the 2s.

I've also been thinking there will probably be another big important car wreck, and I mean other than the bus thing. Lots of foreshadowing for that as well.

Assume Crash Positions.

Ari

[The Big I-T]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ari:
What's the betting that if they have a mutual annihilation smackdown it'll take place in Buffy's house. And that there will be much pretty fire involved.

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A mutual annhilation smackdown? Hey! Wasn't that foreshadowed in ATW? Buffy on porch..."There must be something out there cruising for a smackdown..."

Perhaps I'm looking for clues where there aren't any...

quote:

[The Partyman]

Just been reading again about the Five stages of Death or Dying.

Regardless of events and episode content, if either the Season Finale or Season Seven Premiere is titled "Acceptance" I will have to take my hat off to Joss.

[drlloyd11]

Ok kids, the source of the "Amber is signed for season 7" story is a woman who posts as Blkkatt on the bronze. She is the maintainer of the FAQ, and has said this several times..
Blkkatt@hotmail.com is her email...
I sent her some, and we will see what comes back..

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Willow was actually there, in Tara's room, and Tara was so very happy. Her face was warm and she was too shy to tell the pretty redhead that she prayed to the goddess for her dear new friend to come to her. And magickally, wonderfully here she was.

Now, as Tara made a symbol on the floor with salt and black sand, Willow placed a single red rose in the center of the symbol. She looked shy and eager...rather the way Tara felt at this moment. "I am glad you wanted to get together." Willow said warmly. "I know it's late." I...Thanks," Tara managed without stammering. "I was happy you called." Actually, I was ecstatic. I hurried to place an apple for the goddess in the woods by the bike path.

[DianaBouvier]

quote:

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Originally posted by The Big I-T:
But the thing is, I haven't been able to watch those tapes since the episode aired where they killed off Catherine in what I felt was a cruel and despicable fashion...

I'm just saying...

--jr

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I actually thought the show was much, much, better after Cathy died. It was very clear the actress had no interest in the show or the work she was doing. I loved the show because of the love and devotion the people in the tunnels showed each other. I bet being gay there didn't matter.

I think its the exact oppsite with Tara and Willow. Darn it! Those two are role models, and I just can't help but being upset if they do the cliche'! Sorry.

I'm still too emotional to really post anything...sorry again.

quote:

[Anne]

Sorry if this has already been covered (there are far too many posts for humble me to keep up with) but as far as I know, there is nothing concrete about Amber's season 7 contract status (unlike the confirmed status of some other characters) Isn't this exactly what they would do if they were trying to hold back from ruining this season's big ending? They have done it with James Marsters before.

Again, sorry if I have missed a post on this already - you guys have no regard for those of us who have to work so much

[Scout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sela:
The killing of a character has never ever been this gratuitous, graphic, and really nonsensical IMO.

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I can’t imagine summing it up any better than that.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Big I-T:
But the thing is, I haven't been able to watch those tapes since the episode aired where they killed off Catherine in what I felt was a cruel and despicable fashion

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That’s so sad. I watched B&B and remember how devastating that ending was – it was so cruel. I can’t believe the writers did that to get back at Linda Hamilton. Talk about abandoning the fan base. Here’s hoping you get a better outcome with Willow and Tara.
quote:quote:

[bzengo]

Just wanted to say that I've collected all the Examples of the Lesbian Cliche in Television examples y'all have so graciously provided, and I'm going to go ahead and a) take off your posting names, and b) as I said in my original post, use them to show on a private board, the pervasivness of the cliche.

I'll probably be doing this later tonight, so if you have any more examples, this is the time to get them in for this go-round.

Also, Xita or Moderators, if you'll tell me where, I'll be glad to make the entire collected list available somewhere for future use or additions.

Thanks,

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bzengo

Joss I love invoking all those (old horror) movies, but at the same time, the core of this series, emotionally, is a very safe place.

Joss (Sun Aug 30, 1998)
. . . Sooooo, someone is hoping this season will be less traumatic? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[The Big I-T]

Yeah. Thanks Scout. Here's hoping we all do...

[Ari]

About the whole idea of whether or not Xander would have to remember.

I don't think he does. Because when all is said and done it's Anya's choices that would begin and end the wishverse.

I mean, it's kind of like Buffy not remembering what happened in, uhm crap what was the ep name ... I Will Remember You (?)

Even though what happened was really important and pivotal and would have been really significant for her to remember, she didn't. Because it was all about Angel's choice, and in a sense, his 'sacrifice'.

Edited to add: Also, if she remembered, she might not have been able to move on like she did. So it may be that the same kind of thing would be true for Xander.

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited March 21, 2002).]

[Kamil]

Umm, Ed, gotta question for you. Is it within the realm of possibility that there's more than one type of resurrection spell out there? One that might *directly* involve a life taken for a life granted -- and for the purposes of this spell, Bambi just won't do as the life taken?

And while I'm on the subject -- do you have any news, rumors, etc., as to whether or not Jonathan ends up redeeming himself by the end of the season? It's obvious in "Normal Again" he is *really* wanting away from the other two dweebs -- and if Tara dies in a trap meant for Buffy I'm wondering just how far Jonathan might go and what kind of price he might be willing to pay to atone for his part in all of this.

So, am I warm? Hot? Cool? Or so cold that I'm standing near the Antarctic Circle.

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Kamil
--
I feel like Spike explaining the Ben/Glory connection. It's just like people to assume a story is over just because the hero is rotting in her grave. Sheesh.
Joss Whedon

[Kendahl897]

I think you nailed it right on the head Scarecrow. And might I also add that when the Troika captured Willow back in the episode where Buffy was invisible, she didn't use magic to free herself then, either.
Also, if everything bad that happens occurs after the wish to Warren is granted, then Anya is just as guilty, as she is the one that granted the wish that led to the (speculated) destruction of her friends. Friends I've no doubt that she loves.
This is why the reversal theory makes alot of sense to me. Anya starts the chain of events that lead to all of this chaos(the wish), only Anya can end it and make things right.

[the literary exterminator]

quote:

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Originally posted by The Partyman:
Just been reading again about the Five stages of Death or Dying.

Regardless of events and episode content, if either the Season Finale or Season Seven Premiere is titled "Acceptance" I will have to take my hat off to Joss.

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Heh. That's funny. I guess if the Season Seven premere is Depression, we have a pretty good idea of where the series is going.quote:

[The Partyman]

quote:

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Originally posted by the literary exterminator:
Heh. That's funny. I guess if the Season Seven premere is Depression, we have a pretty good idea of where the series is going.

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Well Season Six has kinda been "Depression" in many ways.quote:

[Scout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Willowlicious:
...Well, then the Wishverse would set about creating this exact scenario. Free will is removed. This is now Warren's will. The Wishverse is making things happen in order to fulfill his wish. The characters are playing out a scenario HE has demanded. It is no longer the natural order of things...

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I would love it if that were the case. I’m having a really hard time with this ‘emotional trauma,’ ‘temporary insanity,’ ‘she’s not responsible for what she does’ approach to Willow’s acts – especially in a season that’s been all about accepting responsibility for your actions. From what we’re hearing, Willow doesn’t have a fleeting moment of insanity – it’s a drawn out series of highly disturbing events that are so unlike Willow that I can’t even get my mind around them. She’s the strongest emotionally of all the Scoobies and she’s successfully fought a difficult addiction to dark magicks since she went cold turkey. And although I agree losing Tara is utterly devastating, I don’t see it excusing or explaining her actions – not the kind we’re hearing about (especially involving innocents).

I would love it if she is indeed under the influence of Warren’s wish or anyone else’s wish. I could deal with that. And it would be a lot more satisfying because it would mean that Willow hasn’t abandoned any of her growth from this season; it would mean Tara can still trust her; and it would mean the core Willow – the Willow we know and love – is still intact. I’m thinking this is about the best scenario we could hope for concerning Willow.

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited March 21, 2002).]quote:

[morgan1707]

I have to agree with some guys; Buffy has lost it's way this year. There have been some outstanding episodes this year, but the majority have focused too much on Dawson's Creek-style storylines which are getting in the way of good story-telling. And as for Ed's spoilers about the Seaso finale - I'm not believing it until UPN start advertising it. I also think it's a bad idea; another two-hour Buffy? I don't really see the point, myself...

But if things aren't okay by next Season, I'll still watch. With any TV show I watch, I always watch because it's the show that's bigger than the characters contained within it. If one leaves, I'll still watch. Hey, I still watch The X-Files without Mulder, and I'm really enjoying it! So, if Tara does die a permanent death, I'll still be watching next year. If Willow or Buffy, or whoever dies, I'll still be watching - like I said, it's the show that's bigger than the characters.

But I completely understand if some of you don't want to watch next year - it will be difficult. But I have a feeling it will be.

[VampNo1]

My main problem with this season has been the overall emphasis on the angst. I know everything can't be all love and happiness, but this season has been too dark (there's dark and then there's downright depressing which this season seems to excell in). As others have said before season 6 has seemed to eliminate hope, which for a theme of "Grow-up" makes no sense at all. Another thing I find puzzling is the fact the season 4 was suppossed to be the season where Joss shows the gang at odds and growing apart. Now in season 6 it seems ME is doing the same thing, but with more dire and depressing results. All I can say is there better be some light at the end of the tunnel, because if I want to be completly depressed I might as well just watch the news.

[shellybean]

quote:

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Originally posted by morgan1707:
I have to agree with some guys; Buffy has lost it's way this year. There have been some outstanding episodes this year, but the majority have focused too much on Dawson's Creek-style storylines which are getting in the way of good story-telling. And as for Ed's spoilers about the Seaso finale - I'm not believing it until UPN start advertising it. I also think it's a bad idea; another two-hour Buffy? I don't really see the point, myself...

But if things aren't okay by next Season, I'll still watch. With any TV show I watch, I always watch because it's the show that's bigger than the characters contained within it. If one leaves, I'll still watch. Hey, I still watch The X-Files without Mulder, and I'm really enjoying it! So, if Tara does die a permanent death, I'll still be watching next year. If Willow or Buffy, or whoever dies, I'll still be watching - like I said, it's the show that's bigger than the characters.

But I completely understand if some of you don't want to watch next year - it will be difficult. But I have a feeling it will be.

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I totally agree with you Morgan. I also think that Buffy kind of lost its Buffyness this year. It feels like every episode or season at least just gets darker and more depressing. I think its the best show on tv, but its just changed so much from how it used to be. And I also totally agree that although this season hasn't been my favorite, it has had some of the best and most memorable eps. One that everyone will remember of course being Once More, with Feeling which will forever be one of my favorite Buffy eps, up there with Hush and the Body.
And I like many have been a hard core Buffy fan since the first episode and no matter how much darker or depressing the show gets, I will never stop watching. Even if god forbid Tara doesn't get brought back, I've loved this show from the start so won't stop watching. I understand those who tuned in because of the Willow/Tara story line wanting to stop watching though.
And can someone fill me in on Ed's spoilers? I think I totally missed them and can't seem to find them in this thread.

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"But with Tara, I just know she likes Willow, and she already has one of those" – "Family"

"Honey, in case you didn’t hear me the first six-thousand times, no more teleportation spells." – "Crush"

Willow: "I figured, life goes by so fast, if you don’t write stuff down it just gets…lost."
Tara: "Down to every last bagel"
Willow: "Down to every last everything I do with you" – "Forever"quote:

[Ange]

You know about the W/T bed scene. I really think that we're gonna have the right to a sex scene. Amber explained that she was very modestly clothed, she even used naked.
That's because she was wearing a kind of second skin, a costume, that makes you look like if you are naked.
What would they need that, for a bed scene? They could have pans and eveything, and just a little top, like in one of the picture, that's on the web site of "Chances". You can see Amber like that.
I really believe in the sex scene and after a bed scene. Like an after sex scene. That'd be great.

As for killing Tara definitly, i think that it's really too cliché for Joss and hos team. They must have something else in mind.

Ange.

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"Things are not always what they seem to be...." Shakespare.

[The Partyman]

quote:

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Originally posted by shellybean:
...And can someone fill me in on Ed's spoilers? I think I totally missed them and can't seem to find them in this thread.

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"Ed The Spoiler"'s posts are found in the "General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 10".

They're not neccessarily true, as he is an unregistered poster and has posted different spoilers that hugely contradict each other, but his posts are interesting.
quote:

[Shaniezak]

Okay, you can all shoot me now, but . . . *shrugs* I'll keep watching. And before anyone calls me insensitive, uncaring, and/or not a true fan, I've heard all that already . . .

*quietly slipping away from all the anger now*

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"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you . . . but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amos

"Love is lightning, love is ice; it only strikes the lucky twice--once so you will know the price, and once for crazy faith . . ." -- Alison Krauss and Union Station

[The Partyman]

I'll keep watching too, regardless of events, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about the death of one of my favourite characters!

[wiltar]

To me it kinda depends on what's gonna happen... I will at least watch it up to this season's finale... if Tara isn't back in the land of the living by then, and Willow still going all dark magicky, I'll probably stop watching too....

Patricia

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"What are they looking at?"
"The hotness of you, doofus!"

[Dr.G]

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaniezak:
Okay, you can all shoot me now, but . . . *shrugs* I'll keep watching. And before anyone calls me insensitive, uncaring, and/or not a true fan, I've heard all that already . . .

*quietly slipping away from all the anger now*

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What anger? You mean anger at this story arc?

If people want to keep watching if Tara stays dead then that is fine by me, not that anybody should care one itty bit if it was *not* fine by me. As long as on this board I do not have to have to read anybody trying to explain why Tara staying dead should *not* be the end of the show for *me* or why Tara staying dead and Willow destroyed is not the worst thing that could happen to the show.

If this is reversed, if we get our Willow and Tara back, I shall kiss the ground Joss Whedon walks on. I shall suck up shamelessly and defend the show and this season for as long as I can. If however Tara stays dead and Willow gets hurt in the worst of ways, I shall be quite unpleased, which is my euphemistic way of saying that Brian's Canadian rage shall bleach in comparison to my venomous Dutch anger.quote:

[mat]

If all the new eps were squished into the sweeps period then the Brits would only be watching the eps 3 days later than US peeps WOOT WOOT! As it is we will only be 10 days behind by May!

Mat | BB

[Perfume V]

Re: Buffy's uniqueness or otherwise.

Marti's described Buffy as "Party of Five with monsters." I think that says it all.

I remember reading an article on David Lynch's struggle to get the ditched pilot episode of Mulholland Dr. past the censors. In it, Joss Whedon was interviewed, and he said TV was so scared of new ideas he had to claim Buffy was "My So-Called Life meets The X Files".

Back then, that sort of bottom-level reductivist corporate TV thinking was evidently a joke with the writing staff. Now it's show gospel. Sigh.

[willowtarasandwich]

I don't know if this has been covered before, but I haven't seen it in any of the threads I've used in the last couple of months.

I'm curious about all of this 'foreshadowing' that goes on. I know that the writers etc are unhappy about spoilage leaks, but how do they feel about all of the speculating that is done on this and other boards? Joss himself seems to encourage it by some of the comments he is quoted as saying, and I sometimes feel that it is like a game, with them setting the clues and seeing if we can unravel them before the answer is revealed - especially with eps like Restless, or the dream sequences with Faith, and presuambly also OMWF and TR this season.

Or am I way off beam, and are we all fooling ourselves into thinking there is some kind of 'grand plan' by trying to read portents that just don't exist?

Does anybody have any direct quotes from the writers where they say that the clues lie in what has been shown in the past?

And as for those of you who won't watch any more BtVS if W/T isn't resolved - I'm not sure of my own stance, but I fully understand and respect anyone's decision. And I hope the strength of feeling has managed to reach TPTB in time to influence them in case they WEREN'T intending a happy ending. I still believe it will all work out in the end, if only because nothing else would make any sense.

Just one final point - the events of Normal Again had similarities in a British comedy of a few years ago - The Brittas Empire, starring Chris Barrie (Rimmer out of Red Dwarf). After several years of more and more ludicrous happenings, it ended with him on the train to his initial interview for the job and the entire show had been a dream he had invented on the journey, with all of the characters being felow passengers on the train. It worked quite well in that instance, as it was a comedy program, but I hope Joss doesn't intend a similar conclusion for our guys!!!

[morgan1707]

Buffy has gone way past "Part Of Five with monsters." It's now Dawson's Creek with monsters.

Oh, Ed's spoilers were that UPN are planning to show the last two episodes as a two-hour finale. Whether it's true or not, I don't know.

[Perfume V]

I think I heard on another board that UPN have already started planning ads and promotional campaigns for a two-hour season finale. So we'll see soon. (This is, of course, all because the ratings for this season haven't been worth what UPN paid for the show)

As for the "so-and-so with monsters" - I think the founder of HDC put it best when he said "Party of Five? A show that was cancelled twice because it sucked so much?"

Surely nothing deserves Dawson's Creek comparisons, though?