Triangle Discussion

[christa monsta]

posted 01-10-2001 10:14 EST (US)
Well, everyone's done a great job of summarizing this super episode, but here's some other points:

1. argh! i thought we'd seen the end of buffy playing with dawn's hair. alas, twas not meant to be.

2. i felt like it took a little while to get into the rhythm of the show. it was a little weird going from the dialogue-heavy scenes with X/A and D/B, to the fast-moving scenes of the rest of the show.

3. loved when Xander corrected himself and said "i mean, my THREE favorite girls". yay! more tara inclusion!

4. loved the look tara gives when xander ducks behind her and says "protect me, tara!"

5. willow's impersonation of anya was pretty funny, and not too far off the mark, i thought.

6. i didn't mind the front of willow's hair, but the BACK! paging Shirley Temple!!

7. i'd also like to give a woo and hoo for the first troll scene, where willow seems almost to be holding anya!! watch it willow...you're supposed to be a one-woman woman! hee hee

8. tara's tank top - GOOD (did you see the little bit of shoulder? - yummy!)

9. tara's skirt - BAD (if you're gonna have the girl run...please, oh please give her some pants!) don't even get me started on the big bag she was carrying when she was with buffy.

10. loved buffy grabbing tara's hand to lead her off to find willow.

11. what's up with the poster for the "String Cheese Incident" when B/T come into the Bronze for the first time? wasn't that in another ep too (maybe NMR?)?

12. kudos not only to xander for not choosing one of the girls, but bigger kudos to anya for offering herself as a sacrifice!! that got a big "awwww" outta me!

13. although i hate to say it, i almost felt like willow was being WAY childish through the whole episode. it's like Anya was Superego to willow's Id (or do i have that backwards). i'm kind of scared to see where this overtly reckless behavior of willow's will lead us. WE NEED some more tara in the spells for control (i'm a firm believer that tara brings control to their spell relationship). could be wrong, though.

14. spoiler-free and staying that way! when i heard the "Gay now" line, i about fell outta my chair. holy cow!

oops, kinda long. sorry about that!
------------------

W: "I am a whiz!"
T: "She is a whiz!"
W: "If ever a whiz there was..."
- The Yoko Factor

[This message has been edited by christa monsta (edited January 10, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by christa monsta (edited January 10, 2001).]

[BBOvenGuy]

posted 01-10-2001 10:19 EST (US)
I think it's bad directing and not censor editing.

I figured out a way to make the scene where Buffy and Tara charge into the Bronze work better, too. Check this out:

*****

WILLOW: I wish Buffy was here.

BUFFY ENTERS.

BUFFY (not hearing Willow): I'm here!

WILLOW (considers, then): I wish I had a million dollars!

TARA ENTERS, THEN IMMEDIATELY GOES TO WILLOW AND HUGS HER.

TARA: I'm so glad you're okay!

WILLOW (considers again, smiles): That'll work, too.

*****

Whaddya think? Should they hire me?

[christa monsta]

posted 01-10-2001 10:22 EST (US)

Perfect, Robert! Move over Jane!

[april]

posted 01-10-2001 10:37 EST (US)
yay bob! i like it better that way, too.

christa, i agree that watching this ep unspoiled was certainly a treat. well, almost unspoiled, anyway. other than what i saw from the trailer, i knew three things: a)"hello, gay now!" (which would have been great to see unspoiled) b) the fact that tara and buffy bond and c) that there was lots of tara

i thoroughly enjoyed watching all the other parts of the ep unfold without knowing about them beforehand. and although the writing (and editing) for tara left a bit to be desired, overall i thought that this ep had some of the best writing this season. it was packed with all the witty little lines that i'd been missing in earlier eps (can you say "into the woods", anyone?).

and i always love willow's lines. she has the best way of putting things. i'm so glad that with tara, she's finally found someone who understands her!

[Utena]

posted 01-10-2001 11:00 EST (US)
Man Bob, you really fixed that scene up! Now how hard would it have been to really tape it that way? A couple more seconds is all it would have taken...and we would have gained yet another unforgettable W/T moment.

My newest favorite Tara moment came in this ep. "Buffy, somethings been here and Willow's gone!" Oh the pain and worry in her eyes...Amber is such a fabulous actress.
This ep really made me sit back and realize once again what a great group of actors and actresses we have on Buffy. No one has such a special individuality like Willow, every line she delivers has her distinct style in it and they play in my head for days afterward. In the scene with Dawn, I felt Buffys pain. Forget that I threw myself a party when Riley finally left, I could almost feel how sad Buff was. Go SMG with your Golden Globe nomination! I hope she wins. And Amber...that one line about Willow in the magic shop makes me just go "Wow, this gal is amazing."

This ep was so hilarious and wonderful overall, through my tears of laughter I was amazed at how much these people mean to me. The people and the characters alike. Hopefully someday I'll meet some of them so I can say exactly that.

[Warduke]

posted 01-10-2001 11:17 EST (US)
Why is it that the script is ALWAYS better than what ends up on screen???…Yeah I know…time constraints

The funniest scene for me from this ep is Spike and the dummy but the funniest scene from the script is when W/A go back to the magic shop and Giles is there, damn I wished they would have put that in the ep and what about Giles’s last line in the shop…Where's the cash register?

I don’t understand why they didn’t show Tara hugging Willow when she comes in to the Bronze, the fact that she doesn't, just doesn't make sense, after being so worried about Willow, they could have cut a few seconds somewhere else and showed it but oh well, we did get the G word…twice

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited January 10, 2001).]

[gogirrrr]

posted 01-10-2001 11:26 EST (US)
Robert, you have my vote to kick you onto the Buffy script writing island.....well done.

Kate (smiling as I play “Bob’s” scene over in my head)

[november]

posted 01-10-2001 11:48 EST (US)
I'm still learning how to quote, w/o much success. the following is a quotation from above:

13. although i hate to say it, i almost felt like willow was being WAY childish through the whole episode.

End quotation

Glad to see that someone else felt this way. I don't think Willow was behaving very nicely, especially during the first third of the show. In retrospect it made sense. Anya was just being Anya, but in order to set up a conflict that wasn't enough; Willow had to do something to bring her into a dispute with Anya in order to set up the conflict.

On the other hand, if Willow was a little out of character, Tara was dead-on--all gentle supportive kindness. And, I thought, particularly beautiful in her first scene seated at the table with the scoobies.

[This message has been edited by november (edited January 10, 2001).]

[Spring]

posted 01-10-2001 11:57 EST (US)
When Buffy was crying on Tara's shoulder and said "Miraculous love", did anyone else besides me immediately think, Willow and Tara have a miraculous love! It's a freakin' miracle that they got together in the first place. And it's a miracle that they're still together!
I would've like Buffy to sappily acknowledge (like she did about Xander and Anya) that Willow and Tara's relationship had a lot less going for it than even X/A(being that it's gay and happy and Oz came back and all that jazz).
That editing in the last scene when Buffy looks at both couples but it is edited to look like she is talking to only X/A shows that a) it was in the script, b) it was shot as the script wanted, and c) was edited in postproduction.
Maybe by allowing Joss the inclusion of the two gay references, he had to compromise and make them look less couple-y?

Now the last time I remember such a glaring editing issue was with The Yoko Factor (?), when Tara was caressing/rubbing Willow's neck and that was snipped in favor of a computer screenshot. Joss acknowledged this and said that the touching itself looked awkward and he didn't like it, so he replaced it. These awkward edits seem to be put in at the last minute for whatever. Am I just too focused on W/T to notice this happening with other couples and/or other scenes? Cause it just seems to happen around W/T.

Another thing, it must be such a pain in the ass for Joss to have to constantly fight to have W/T show affection to each other. If I were in his place, I would get so tired of being bogged down by these issues day in and day out, that I wouldn't even want to show W/T at all. It's just such a hassle. For a couple that takes up let's say 7% of screentime, I wonder if he has to expend 20% of his energy dealing with all the hoo-ha over it. Joss, as usual, rocks.

I just read the shooting script. Looks like they cut out a whole chunk of very funny Giles. So maybe it's not a conspiracy, just a new editor or something.

[This message has been edited by Spring (edited January 10, 2001).]

[xita]

posted 01-10-2001 12:13 EST (US)
Ok, want to get some points across quickly.

I did feel Buffy was referring to both couples there at the end and I do believe SMG looked their way. And this I caught even though I expected Buffy's gushing to be all about x/a. So I will concurr and say it was bad direction.

I also think Tara stayed away because Willow told her not get close. Willow's taking care of her. Yes, it was a bit odd that there wasn't a hug or something, oh well. And I think that even in the beginning Tara is staying away from Willow's magical exploration. Either she can't keep up, or she is concerned about the effects this could have. I think it's a bit of both.

More, who thinks it was Tara that pointed out to Willow that her note taking was kind of insane, I liked that bit very much, with Tara saying it was quirky. I thought the Troll had some great lines as well, I'll pick them up on second viewing.

Hmm Willow hair, I liked it a lot more than I thought it would. And Buffy and Tara have a cool little comraderie thing. I liked all the interaction.

Ok more later.

[newmoon07]

posted 01-10-2001 12:15 EST (US)
I thought the episode was hilarious as well. On the topic of Willow/Tara though--i wasn't too thrilled with the treatment of Tara's character. I felt as if she was a background statue most of the time. Eventhough Anya and Xander were to be the focus couple, there could've at least been somewhat REALISTIC portrayal of "couplehood" between W/T. I mean all this chaos goes on, Tara is obviously concerned about Willow--BUT--not once was there even a slight touch,hug, or "ARE YOU O.K.??" My god, I think there was closer contact between Spike and the victims than between W/T. Despite these cynical points--the ep WAS great!

[Rayne]

posted 01-10-2001 12:25 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by newmoon07:
I mean all this chaos goes on, Tara is obviously concerned about Willow--BUT--not once was there even a slight touch,hug, or "ARE YOU O.K.??"

---

Huh... this must have been cut as well:
Right after Willow wishes for a million dollars:

Tara goes immediately to Willow, hugs her.

TARA
(to Willow)
I'm so glad you're okay.

BUFFY
What's going on?...
**************

I do think this episode ran long though. There was a whole really funny scene with Giles, Willow and Anya that was cut... and Giles was cut completely out of the last scene in the magic box (he was supposed to be standing off to the side with Tara).

Did anyone notice how *long* the first act was? It didn't end until about 20-25 minutes after the hour!

Anyway, the script is up, and I'm going to bed.

------------------
Rayne
The Buffy Shooting Script Site

[EvilAnya]

posted 01-10-2001 12:33 EST (US)
I loved this ep, loved the fact that they built Tara's character more, but i have mixed feelings about the "hello, gay now" line. I was fine with "hello gay" but the "now" part is what really got to me. It implies that being gay is something that can turn on and off, it seems like it could lead to a "hey, not gay anymore" line in the future and that put me off.


How cute was tara in this ep? so so cute, i love the way she's fitting in with the gang, and i am still hoping for an Anya/Tara friendship. One thing is for certain; they will not be living in the all shrimp alter universe.

[BBOvenGuy]

posted 01-10-2001 12:35 EST (US)
I'm taking Xita's side defending the ep on two counts -

#1 - Willow did tell Tara to stay back when the fight started, and at that point Tara was pinned on the other side of the shop from Willow and Anya. What was she supposed to do? Do one of those weaving-running paths ducking blows and swinging hammers?

#2 - I also LOVED the bit with "I call it quirky" at the beginning. I'm surprised none of the wild feed folks caught it, because it's *such* a good W/T moment.

I'll have to rewatch episode to check the directing when Buffy's having her meltdown, but the camera was cutting to both Xander/Anya and Willow/Tara, so it could be inferred that Buffy meant both couples. On the other hand, since the troll had been saying Xander and Anya wouldn't last, it is somewhat logical that Buffy would be more concerned about them.

It's too bad that the hug got cut. The one thing that was really odd about this episode was the timing. The second act break didn't come until almost 8:40! Act three was barely there! What's up with that?

Oh, and one last thing - I think there were two reasons Buffy sent Willow and Anya back to the magic shop instead of Willow and Tara. First, Willow and Anya had been there when the troll was released in the first place. Second, Tara was busy. After Willow and Anya leave, we can clearly see Tara off to the side helping one of the injured folks.

Even though the timing was goofy, I still thought this was a great episode. One of the best in a really good year.

[xita]

posted 01-10-2001 12:36 EST (US)
Thanks Rayne, you rock!

3 cheers for Rayne!

I knew something was missing in that scene. And you are most quick. GOd love ya.

Ok, I feel better. There did need to be a hug there and there was supposed to be one.

[january_girl]

posted 01-10-2001 12:37 EST (US)
i laughed out loud at "hello, gay now!" and "and she's not going to try to break us up. because she's, y'know, gay and all". they actually said the word gay! *gasp*. progress. and so i guess this is saying that willow is gay, and not bi?

[Utena]

posted 01-10-2001 12:48 EST (US)
Rayne i love you i love you i love you!

You have completed my night! I am so happy...its coming out of my bottom! *chuckles at her own lameness*

[darvangi]

posted 01-10-2001 12:49 EST (US)
I sympathize with you on the "hello gay now" line, EvilAnya. The possibility of Willow being able to turn sexual preference on and off like a switch is scary for the future of W/T (although it descibes my sexuality pretty well, come to think of it). It might be better to interpret the line as "hello, involved in a loving, monogamous gay relationship now." It might not be the same crowd pleaser that way, but it keeps the line from being foreboding.

[This message has been edited by darvangi (edited January 10, 2001).]

[Gudanov]

posted 01-10-2001 12:59 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by november:
I don't think Willow was behaving very nicely, especially during the first third of the show. In retrospect it made sense. Anya was just being Anya, but in order to set up a conflict that wasn't enough; Willow had to do something to bring her into a dispute with Anya in order to set up the conflict.

On the other hand, if Willow was a little out of character,

---

I don't think Willow was really out of character. Being catty isn't anything new, and being careless with magic is pretty standard fare.

[Roxton]

posted 01-10-2001 13:27 EST (US)
I noticed that at the end of Triangle there was no trailer, so this morning I checked next week's TV Guide to see if Buffy will be a repeat. It appears that it is. From the description it looks like No Place Like Home. At least we'll get to see a new episode of Angel.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited January 10, 2001).]

[Hugin]

posted 01-10-2001 13:37 EST (US)
Willow has used the Hello, "blank", and the "blank" now constructions before. Phrasing it that way last night is just good consistent characterization.

For example "Hello, still Jewish", and "Hello, dating a musician."

And "Bored now." "Falling now."

I knew as soon as I saw that line that some folks on Brand X boards would try to interpret it as "Gay at this moment, but subject to change."

Well, phooey. It's like the folks who said things last year about "Well Joss considers all relationships on the show to be romantic, so when he says W and T are in a romantic relationship, it doesn't mean anything." It's grasping at straws. It's trying to parse what the definition of "is" is. Willow is gay. The folks who can deal with that reality will do so, and they won't worry excessively about the word "now", or freak out if Willow actually finds some random guy vaguely cute or whatever. The folk who can't, can't, no matter how emphatically or elaborately it's explained to them.

Of course, I made the mistake of going to the Bronze last night and got into a couple of arguments, so I'm cranky.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited January 10, 2001).]

[tyche]

posted 01-10-2001 13:58 EST (US)
I was thinking about why they decided to deal with Buffy's grief (and she is grieving, the end of any relationship is upsetting) over the departure of Riley in a comic way, and the only thing I could come up with is this: self-parody. It seemed like most of season 3 was B/A angst (btw the parody of this in 'The Zeppo' has to count as one of my favourite 'Buffy' moments ever), and so to avoid even more angst and Buffy-mopiness, they went down the comedy route. This sounds as though it provided some good comic moments, but my problem with this decision is that it cheapens & trivialises the B/R relationship (which I always thought was a much more adult & mature relationship than B/A), as well as completely devaluing Xander's speech to Buffy in 'Into the Woods'.
However, the way they chose to tackle Buffy's reaction to the break-up may also be an indicator as to what's ahead for her: we've already seen her increasingly cut off from the rest of the Scoobies this season - she couldn't even confide in Riley (I don't think she would have confided in Angel if she was still with him, either) and she wants to explore her slayer origins. So, could we see Buffy turning her back on the Scoobies, cutting herself off from her emotions and fighting the good fight alone? (Or even turning to the dark side and heading off into the sunset with Spike...)

Of course, I haven't seen 'Triangle' and 'Into the Woods' yet, so I could have this completely wrong. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Trickster]

posted 01-10-2001 14:04 EST (US)
Posting my thoughts, before reading the thread. Just thought I should note that.

First thoughts:

Xander and Anya fans have no fear. They aren’t going to be breaking up anytime soon. You want to know how I figured this out?

Well you know the last episode where I got the feeling the writer was using Xander to speak for them in reference to Riley. Well I got the feeling they were using Buffy to make their intentions clear here. Yes Buffy is upset because Riley’s gone (I was afraid of that) and she could be all out of her head and it did feel that way, but I still feel like the writer’s were using Buffy to make their intentions clear about what will be happening to the other couples. On the plus side, after this I see Willow and Tara to continue going strong.

Also they cleared the whole Willow/Anya fighting, which I hate, actually. I liked the fact that Anya and Willow didn’t get along. Oh well. And I’m sure I am probably the only one that didn’t find the Willow and Anya scene’s funny. I’m not sure why, but most of the stuff that was supposed to be funny fell flat to me.

However, I am glad to see Willow and Xander (as a potential couple) put to rest. I enjoyed the flirting and stuff but it’s nice to know it’s over and I like Willow and Tara and want to see them make it.

Anyway as for the episode itself, I think the only good parts were, Willow’s “Hello, gay now” line and the scene between Spike and Xander in The Bronze, anyway to me these are the only parts worth watching again.

Although it is nice to see that with Riley gone, all the characters are getting a fair amount of screen time now.

There was also some other good parts, I swear Spike copped a feel when the Troll threw Buffy on him. But does anyone else get the feeling to writers are going to use Spike to show us how great Riley was? I’m not sure what give me that feeling but I was thinking it all through the episode. Enough with Riley! He’s gone. We (the audience) have moved on, so I say the show should move on.

The episode itself was better than Into The Woods, but still ranks very low, for me. But again on the plus side I felt this episode was building toward bigger and better things.

As for Xander and Anya, while I still don’t like their relationship, I am willing to bet that it is here to stay after Triangle.

On a sadder note, for those of us wanting some kind of Xander/Buffy resolution. It’s not going to happen, because as I said above Xander and Anya seem to be here to stay, and after the way Buffy acted tonight I don’t see anything happening between her and Xander even if Anya left.

Now one last question, before I stop: When are they going to de rat Amy? I for one am getting tired of it.

If the actress is busy with other stuff de rat her and have Amy move on, or just kill the Amy rat and be done with it.

Note: I am sorry that my last two Buffy reviews have been, well not happy. But I really didn’t enjoy these last two episodes. I am hoping the next episode will be good and I can write a happy review.

------------------
I love Buffy The Vampire Slayer!

[tyche]

posted 01-10-2001 14:07 EST (US)
Having just read a total misinterpretation of the "hello, gay now" line on another board, I'm just going to try and give my reading of it.
It wouldn't have worked if Willow had just said "hello, gay" because that would have totally ignored her relationship with Oz and flirtation with Xander (Anya's jealousy over Willow and Xander's past attraction to one another being a theme of this ep.) So, "hello, gay now" works because it indicates that she's realised that she's gay (not bi) due to her relationship with Tara, and that she's comfortable with this. As for the future, this line indicates to me that Willow is sure that she's gay, and she isn't going to be attracted to men again.

[Spring]

posted 01-10-2001 14:10 EST (US)
Actually one of the funniest parts of this ep was when Willow said she'd been trying to de-rat Amy but it was only making her smarter. Willow was sure Amy was planning something because she'd been rubbing her little paws together. Hee hee. I smile everytime I think of that. It's such a good visual image. Whiskers all a-twitter, glinty eyes, paws rubbing....

[christa monsta]

posted 01-10-2001 14:23 EST (US)

Well, i think there can be many different ways to look at the "hello, gay now" line. i like to look at it in a positive light and say, wow, she actually said that! what a declaration! but i do agree with Tyche...i take this to mean that she will now fall in love with women from here on out. it's a pretty regular thing to "discover" that you're gay at some point later in your life...or even to accept it after a long time of knowing it. so, yes, willow is gay now...she didn't DEFINE HERSELF as gay before. BUT, if she someday breaks it off with tara (otherwise known as The Day I Want to Kill Someone) and falls in love with a guy...then i may have a problem with it. that's why i'm more inclined to not want to LABEL things so much...do what feels good...follow your heart. labels are so restricting, dabnabbit! but i gotta say, i freaking LOVED the G-words last night. so what can you do?

(one more thing, i think this IS an important issue to discuss...even if it DOES eventually just get down to semantics.)

christa monsta

[Hugin]

posted 01-10-2001 14:24 EST (US)
Now all Amy needs is Pinky, and she can take over the world!

-len

[Corporeal Dennis]

posted 01-10-2001 14:27 EST (US)
Totally, Spring. I've been laughing about that visual all morning.

That line also sounded suspiciously like one of those throwaway lines that comes back later in the season to bite someone in the ass. And the rumor is that Amy will be getting de-ratted this season...

My favorite line of the episode is still "I said 'quirky'," though.

--Dennis

[Anyalvr]

posted 01-10-2001 14:33 EST (US)
I don't think Xander and Anya are going to break up any time soon, either, simply for the fact that both actors are signed up for
a while and character-wise, they're the first stabilizing force - romantically at least - either one of them has ever had.

Nor so for Willow and Tara. I don't think the "gay now" line cheapens Willow and Oz's relationship at all or declares that she isn't bisexual. It's more like "hello, I have
a woman now, I don't need to patrol for guys"
kind of thing. It doesn't mean that she didn't love Oz or she didn't love Xander. She just doesn't anymore (well, romantically). Shippers may have a problem with this. And I still stand by my assertion that Willow/Oz ended on a good note, still
caring about each other but Willow admitting she had moved on and Oz accepting it.

I thought ITW was an episode of total manipulative crap and Xander's speech was the worst part of it. The sooner Buffy gets over Riley, the better, cuz the 'points' made about Buffy/Riley in that episode sounded totally false to me. And it doesn't help that I hated him and I never want him to
come back and I think Buffy's MUCH better off
without him. With all her troubles, a self-destructive boyfriend is the last thing she needs (it beats an evil ex-boyfriend that wants to kill you, but still . . . not good).
And I don't want any further manipulative points about this and that. It's over. Maybe
Buffy'll learn something. Maybe not. But either way she still has a little sister to protect and I'd much rather hear about THAT.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

[BBOvenGuy]

posted 01-10-2001 14:34 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugin:
I knew as soon as I saw that line that some folks on Brand X boards would try to interpret it as "Gay at this moment, but subject to change."

Well, phooey. It's like the folks who said things last year about "Well Joss considers all relationships on the show to be romantic, so when he says W and T are in a romantic relationship, it doesn't mean anything." It's grasping at straws. It's trying to parse what the definition of "is" is.

---

Exactly! Thank you Len for pointing this out.

I took "Hello, gay now" to be the equivalent of "Hello, not straight any more and therefore not a threat to you," but in a more concise and Willow-ish fashion. To microanalyze the word "now" into an implication that Willow will suddenly start liking guys again is simply annoying.

quote:

---

Willow is gay. The folks who can deal with that reality will do so, and they won't worry excessively about the word "now", or freak out if Willow actually finds some random guy vaguely cute or whatever. The folk who can't, can't, no matter how emphatically or elaborately it's explained to them.

---

I'm reminded of the AMC scene that was transcribed a few days ago (See? I pay attention to the non-W/T threads sometimes... ) - where Bianca was at the party and started to dance with that guy, but then stopped because she saw Erica looking at her and smiling. There are plenty of "Ericas" out there who will pounce on the slightest little thing that they can spin into implying that Willow might not "really" be gay. Fortunately, none of those people are in a position to control Joss Whedon, so we really don't have to worry about them.