thoughts on proposition 8?

[cammy]

it seems that once again same sexes have lost a major battle. me and my partner were married in california and are now saddened that we have had it taken away im wondering what the kittens think of the changes happening for same sexes

[The_Marinaford_report]

i think i will move to a different country!
somebody should go up to one of the supporters and just ask them if there happy now
at first i cried and now i think i am in a state of shock, I am angry, I am sad, and I am very disappointed, but at this moment I numb.
I am so very sorry for what they did to you and all the people in California who recently married, if i was you i don't what i would do besides throw up and faint again i am very sorry, and i would hope this will all change, and i hope that i and any one else who is numb right now will be able to feel again sometime soon

[Dorothy]

Do we seriously have to THINK about prop 8? it makes me sick, I don't wanna!

Anyone feel like sueing the state for discrimination? I'll be head cheerleader!

[thiswomanswork]

Here are some thoughts on Prop 8 from Keith Olbermann. I cried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

It's just beautiful. This man makes impassioned speeches regularly, mostly on US political matters. He's articulate, intelligent, perhaps one of the best speakers I've seen. And he very nearly chokes up at several points here. It's beautiful.

Heck, I'm considering making a top-level post just so folks who aren't watching this thread will see it too.

[Dorothy]

ow I love him! that's right, I love a man

I'd marry him if I were straight and old and sober

[Millerchip77]

Keith Olbermann is right - it is a question of love. I don't understand how people who claim to belong to a faith that is based upon love can hate us for loving and for wanting to demonstrate that love in the way that they, as fellow human beings, are able to.

I am British (worse luck, we haven't seen the sun in months ). This August my partner and I had a Civil Partnership, our equivalent to gay marriage. We were promised marriage by the Blair government but semantics, semantics, the Christian right kicked off about 'the rights of the child' etc and 'the sanctity of marriage' and we got the CP Act instead. This gives us equal rights in all but name to heterosexual married couples - and we got to have a fabulous party. The idea that that right could, or worse should be taken from me makes me more angry than I care to articulate.

A few weeks previous to our CP we took part in the London Pride parade - the Christian right held a counter demonstration as they do at most UK pride events. I have no problem with freedom of speech, in a democracy everyone should be allowed to speak - not just those with whom I agree.

What I can't stand is the position of moral superiority taken by people who claim to love but who have hate in their hearts. Another example, in 2006 the Equality Act was passed in the UK, making it illegal to deny the provision of goods and services to people based on the grounds of their religion. The following year the Act was extended to make it illegal to deny the provision of goods and servives to people on the grounds of their sexual oreintation. Who comes out of the woodwork to protest? The Christian right - stating that they 'should be allowed to refuse gay couples to stay in their guesthouses because it's against their religion'. So not only were they stating that the indignity suffered by gay couples who have been turned away from hotels etc is right (and I don't need to point out the irony in that one I'm sure) but that they should be granted a legal right to do so. Fortunately they lost and the law was passed.

This year the UK governemt passed a law making homophobic hate speech a crime - however the Christian right kicked off again, the government backed down this time and so 'criticising homosexual practice on the grounds of religion or urging people to refrain from such conduct will not, in itself, be a crime'.

What I want someone to explain to me is why they hate me for who I love and the way I choose to live my life. And this is why I feel that the anti-prop 8 movement is so vital. We need another Stonewall, another opportunity to demand that our democratic rights as citizens of a 'free nation' are met.

Sister Helen Prejean has said that, "If we say we love God and we're hating each other, it's a lie". It is a lie and this Saturday you will be in my heart - fight on!

[Zampsa1975]

Prop 8 is just another example of why there should be a universal ban of religion in politics...

[WebWarlock]

Look, like I have said before this does not effect me directly.

That doesn't mean I am not pissed off.

THANK YOU KITTEN MODS ONCE AGAIN!!!!
Thank you for linking to the Fight the Hate website above.

I am going to get back into activist mode here and it feels good.

Tim

[Dorothy]

Thank you very much for the support

[HC]

What I want someone to explain to me is why they hate me for who I love and the way I choose to live my life.

As far as I understand it, it's a form of closed-mindedness that comes primarily from monotheistic faiths. Essentially the mindset that takes hold is one that the persons own beliefs are unquestionably correct and anyone who thinks differently is dangerous. This comes about either through arrogance that one's interpretation of the scripture is the only correct one, or through unthinking obedience to such an arrogant leader.
The reason I single out monotheistic faiths above is because they all share the notion of a single god and that traditionally there is only one correct way to worship that deity as explained by scripture. Furthermore any deviation is a direct opposition to the faith, rather then simply a different way of doing things - in other words if you don't believe in the same god as me and worship him in the same way, then you must worship the devil by default.
With monotheism there is traditionally only two choices - either you are with us or against us, black and white, good and evil. Even the most brutal dictators see themselves as being good in their own way, such is the way with the religious groups we're talking about. They think themselfs good while everyone else as evil.
This generalised model basically covers all the groups facing persecution by religious groups - for instance all the catholic/protestant persecutions from history, witchhunts, Islamic Jihads, opposition to homosexualty and atheism and all the other countless examples. It's all a sypmtom of the same root cause.
Anyone even suspected of belonging to any of the out-groups or not being a part of the majority are labelled as being deviants, diabolical or dangerous, simply through non-conformity of mind, orientation or action, which (to them) uncomfortably challenges their narrow way of thinking.

[maudmac]

From http://graphjam.com/

[Millerchip77]

I love it!

[Guest]

Protest campaigns against gay marriage ... I find this form of group delusion in mankind quite amusing: the manner in which these protesters easily slide into anti-gay membership simply because they have been practising group bonding in families since childhood. But people of all sexual orientations are born into a family, whatever be its form. Gay marriage, including the ban on adoption and foster parenting must involve more than just a fight for the right to love if herd-thinkers find this form of union so abhorrent.

Separating what gay love means in opposition to how much families matter could maybe become an additional key for unlocking pro-gay rights in those very opponents. The major delusion on display seems to be relative to interference in a child's rights for a father and mother. Our moral values, as a family, are no different from others and matter equally but to what extent has lobbying on it been effective?

[Millerchip77]

Our moral values, as a family, are no different from others and matter equally but to what extent has lobbying on it been effective?

I can only speak for this country (UK) and say that lobbying has been an essential part of gay rights achieved over the ast 20 years. Demonstrations, writing letters, engaging in local, national and global politics is the only way to get legal changes made. It's a long hard slog and sometimes feels as though it's getting us nowhere but it will, it does. I remember my first gay pride march in London, not only were there many people along the route p who hated us but the Greater London Council actually put the gay community in danger by holding the festival part of the day in a park in a rough area of London where on our way to the park, the streets were literally lined with people shouting abuse at us. That was 15 years ago. This year I went again to London pride, the streets were lined with people cheering in support of us and the festival is now held in Trafalgar Square in the middle of the city. The government are largely now on our side - none of this could have been achieved without lobbying.

[Dorothy]

We Dutch people are some of the luckiest gays on earth
Times are getting rougher though and I think we too should start to be more visible in a positive way.
Prejudged people will never change their mind if they don't get the chance to make a second opinion for themselves.

People fear what they don't know and they also preasume (is that the right word?) that those who hide have something to hide. The last thing is kinda logical, I mean, if we seem ashamed of who we are, it must be something shamefull, musn't it?

You can't blame people for thinking that, even though they are very wrong in this case, it's natural to think that way. So we shouldn't be/act ashamed because there's nothing to be ashamed of, is there?

We should be visible, out and proud in every positive way we can imagine.



I've got a bright "Pink My Right!" bracelet that I never take off (the "livestrong" kinda wristband, only it's bright gay-pink)

[singgirl]

As much as I want to run and hide in a country that supports me and has similar ideals as I do, I feel the need to stay and work my butt off to make things the way they should be here. Prop 8 is just another hurdle. It's a big one, but the demographics show that there is a huge divide in the moral beliefs/standards in the age cohort I belong to versus the one that is in charge now. Given time, I do believe that the younger, more liberal/aware generation will be able to create the necessary changes to move towards a more equal quality of life. I am by no means an optomist, but as someone who is studying sociology, psychology and LGBT studies, I have the advantage of seeing a trend in "loosening up" and moving away from neovictorian denial. Prop 8 makes me sick, but I have confidence that with time, this, too shall be corrected.

[Guest]

While re-reading my post, I realised where I had been unclear in my opinion on lobbying. In designing an awareness raising project on the rights of all individuals to legal union, one of the aspects related to the latter that could be explored is mostly that of the family as opposed to a focus on love. This is because contextually, the underlying rejection lies in the creation of a family life that starts from a couple living together to a child's future. However, I find that a lot of campaigning is focused on a fight against discrimination relative to the right to love.

If society's attitude (in certain cultures) towards people of a gay orientation has changed, it is also true that gay people have made an effort to adapt to this society's authoritarian rules. By becoming out, loud, proud and visible, we have also been channelling ourselves through a normalisation process. We are like everybody. We, in our acceptance and pride towards our identity have made a major progress in this way but may from time to time forget that we are in fact a subculture. Society, on the other hand, places this in the limelight since it knows very well that a reform of patriarchy will not be possible. Hence, for the survival of this subculture, I think that lobbying factors that are based on an inclusion into heterosexual foundation may work better - that foundation being family life.

[Willowtree252]

Prince slams gay marriage?

11/20/2008 3:00 PM, Yahoo! Music
courtesy of NME.com

Prince has said that he does not believe that gay marriage is "right."

The singer told The New Yorkerthat he disagreed with a liberal "Democrat" view of life, pointing to gay marriage as something condoned by the party that he disagreed with because it clashed with the teachings of the Bible.

"God came to Earth and saw people sticking it wherever and doing it with whatever, and he just cleared it all out," he said. "He was, like, 'Enough.'

This is my thoughts on this for every one that says we cant be married we should tell them you cant either. There if you have a right to tell me what to do so do I ALL YOU STRIGHT PEOPLE YOU ARE NOT MARRIED SO LET IT BE WRITTEN SO LET IT BE DONE FUCK YOU!!! I am married and nothing or no one can tell me diffrent my heart feels it, my soul demands it Prince I liked you shame on you. You of all people.

[Dorothy]

ow don't worry about him, tiny men are easily stepped on, remember the nice little feardemon in fear itself? (6)

[maudmac]

You of all people, indeed.

It's pretty funny that Prince, who built an entire career on sex, has a problem with "people sticking it wherever and doing it with whatever." And if God really were to "clear it all out," I guess we could say goodbye to Prince's entire discography. What a hypocrite.

Oh well, he's been nothing without Wendy & Lisa anyway.

Do straight people even like Prince anyway?

[Millerchip77]

I just took the little shit off my iPod. And agreed maudmac - 'Purple Rain' and the other stuff he did with Wendy & Lisa was his best work.

What a wanker.

[Dorothy]

yeah and sticking it everywhere is really what usually happens when people get married

makes me think about a cool sign I saw once "Want to end gay sex? Legalize gay marriage!"

[Dorothy]

I found a woman with some good, straight talk LoL

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1IHdaJOZe7E

[pagnmickie]

What a hypocrite.

This is the new prince. He's like most of the other 'converts' out there. Once you 'find God' you put on that hypocrite hat right? Isn't that part of the ceremony?

-Mickie

[amazon]

The prop 8 musical:
http://www.whedon.info/Neil-Patrick-Har ... 8-Web.html

[Dorothy]

I laughed my ass off XD

[thiswomanswork]

I laughed my ass off XD

Seconded.

Also, the asian girl in the gay side of the chorus? So veryvery hot.

[Dorothy]

^
seconded

[jay/wt4evr]

Lol I lmaoed too

[Redsbird]

OMG that was hilarious! I'm gonna go watch that again.