Fan fic eBooks

[Foomatic]

Hey Kittens,

Recently I have been reading some free femslash eBooks I downloaded from the web onto my iPad, and it got me thinking about all the fabulous fic here in PENS, and how awesome it would be to be able to sit and read them without being tethered to the computer.

So I ask you kittens, would you be interested in reading all your favorite completed PENS fics in ebook format? We wanted to gauge people's interest in this before figuring out how to implement it into PENS. Also, for all our authors reading, would you be open to having your completed fics available for download?

[Zooeys_Bridge]

The options for this poll should be "no", "yes", or "fuck yes"

[BeMyDeputy]

I know that it's a lot easier to curl up with my iTouch than it is even with my laptop. I can only imagine having something bed-friendly but not in itty-bitty-eyestraino-vision. That would be cool. So as a reader, yes please.

As an author, totally. Not a question. I mean, since I already have software that converts things to and between electronic reader formats, I'm aware that anyone who wants an ebook version of anything I post can have it. So, if I didn't want that . . . well, the internet would be a crummy place to put things, then.

[Finey_McFine]

The options for this poll should be "no", "yes", or "fuck yes"

Agreed! Audio books would be nice too:)

[Foomatic]

The options for this poll should be "no", "yes", or "fuck yes"

Agreed! Audio books would be nice too:)

Nice, we can hold voice auditions. Have people submit mp3s of them reading their favorite W/T smut scene. Best sex line operator voice wins.

[Finey_McFine]

Nice, we can hold voice auditions. Have people submit mp3s of them reading their favorite W/T smut scene. Best sex line operator voice wins.

HA! Now that would be something. Hey, maybe we could get Amber to read a few??!! Hahahahaha!

[Ariel]

Hey!

I think that this is a GREAT IDEA!!!

Proudly cast my vote in the "Oh yes" category! I might actually buy one if KB fiction was available.

Ariel
How I Met Your Mother

[Laragh]

That's an awesome idea!

Count me firmly in the 'yes' camp for sure!

[Agilulfa]

After hours upon hours spent formatting fanfictions on word files may I be interested in an ebook version? Wait, let me think about it... DAMN YES!!!

[Candleshoe]

Nice, we can hold voice auditions. Have people submit mp3s of them reading their favorite W/T smut scene. Best sex line operator voice wins.

[jay/wt4evr]

I voted yes, but preferably once the fiction is finished, as to encourage feedback? Other than that, hell yeah.

[Grimm]

The options for this poll should be "no", "yes", or "fuck yes"

+1 For f#ck yes.

[Azirahael]

I'm definitely voting for "Fuck yes"

It would save me the bother, i already copy my favourite ones to Word Docs so's i can read them on my laptop.
This would be really cool.
Internet can be spotty in the wilds of New Zealand sometimes

Do it!

Please?

[Foomatic]

I voted yes, but preferably once the fiction is finished, as to encourage feedback? Other than that, hell yeah.

Hey Jay, this would only be for completed fics. I would hate to have to redo the books every time there's an update!

[BuffyFan4ever]

What a great idea!!!! It might just be worth getting an ipad. Can there also be a sub-website to read completed fics online without the feedback? It makes it easier to read multi-chapter stories.

[Foomatic]

What ebook formats would you guys be interested in?

[edob]

flag works well for ipad. i have downloaded fiction from laragh, leonhart, endiessdreamer and wingedraksha. great fiction from great authors:)
love the idea

[laienmauden]

epub would be awesome. pdf is fine too. I love the idea of fanfic ebooks...and regret the hours i spent copying over Sidestep Chronicle and other longass epic fics just a few weeks ago.

[Laragh]

Calibre is great, easy-to-use software for converting ebooks to whatever format you need as well if anyone ever needs a different format that isn't available.

[BeMyDeputy]

Calibre is great, easy-to-use software for converting ebooks to whatever format you need as well if anyone ever needs a different format that isn't available.

Yes--Calibre is what we use at my house for our ebook library.

Something Kajun mentioned to me this morning got me thinking about the problem of how feedback is an important part of these stories, but at the same time, there's also a joy in just reading through the story proper. I wonder if there's a way to compile the feedback into appendices, like one for each chapter? I don't want to be all "mods to more work." Just brainstorming. It would obviously be unfeasible for the feedback that's in HTML, given how much time goes into fixing those posts.

When I have some time, I'll look at Calibre and see if it has an easy way of making linked chapters or something. Unless someone already knows?

[Lady Callie]

I already use an app to send fic to my Kindle, or I compile long fics and convert them with Calibre. So my answer is a resounding YES.

[Foomatic]

I've been doing a lot of research on creating ebooks, and tried pasting the story into a word document then saving as HTML and converting with Calibre. It worked, but can use some tweaking. There's a Word template I found that is supposed to automatically create a TOC and code it for ebooks, but I haven't gotten it to work. Could be because I started in on my work PC and tried to complete it on my Mac.

As for the feedback . . . it's such an ingrained part of our culture at PENS that it would be sad to ignore it. On the flip side, fic feedback has a permanent residence here, so if one wants to read all the comments of a particular fic, they can read them in the original thread. eBooks were supposed to be a portable solution to reading completed fics in their entirety without the need of an Internet connection.

[Katharyn]

Once again I am the lone voice (though not in a wilderness right no!) and the only person currently voting no.

The basis for this is partly due to the refinement of the question that has come through the questions posed to the mods and the feedback issue that was answered by Foo. I'll elaborate only to prompt thought on it... it'll happen or not.

I remain of the opinion that feedback is a fundamental part of the community that is Pens. It's supportive to authors, helps them develop and lets you get to know the readers. I know that my looooong fics would not be what they were without the feedback occurring (more on this below).

I also feel that (for my fic at least) being able to read that feedback is essential to understanding both the fic and the writers mindset and intentions at the time. I can only imagine complex feedback in an e-reader format would be (or annoying if not complex) given all the smilies that end up in there... (Lord, they have whips some of them!)

Next, I hate to see anything that will decrease the amount of a feedback a writer receives and I don't just mean after completion, there are people (I know them) who will refuse to read something until it's on e-reader and there will be a FEW (very few) who fail to read a fic until it is completed and e-reader available (they loves their kindles!), probably depriving the writer of their regular feedback even if they bother to post at the very end. Not a huge number, but I am not a fan of anything that reduces activity on Pens either. We shouldn't have made it this far by any logical expectation.

Finally even if feedback were included I have personal opposition to losing control of my fics. I refuse to archive elsewhere (partly because of the reasons above) but once it's e-reader enabled that can be put anywhere and is harder for me to determine if that has been done, yeah it's all about me,me,me

Picky, I know. I don't give a stuff about the numbers of people who read it (or I'd have given up ages ago!), but I want them to read it the way it was intended to be read and I want them to come to Pens at least as often as it's updated. The ongoing activity on the board and the way that the story is read are very real concerns for me. I'd actually write differently - VERY differently - if I was writing a book or e-reader NOVEL rather than an episodic fanfic like this. That context is very important in judging the work.

That said, the numbers are clear and the convenience factor for people is clear. For those who like and want it, it'll be great I am sure and a great sign of the activism of the mods these days. I just won't be opting in to this one.

Katharyn

[EasierSaid]

Don't worry Kathryn, you aren't alone! It's just taken me a while to articulate my concerns. So, without further adieu, my main concerns with eBooks:

1) Feedback. Like Kathryn, I don't like the idea of feedback disappearing either. I know a lot of stories on the board have their chapters hyperlinked so that you can go through the story without bothering with the feedback, but I think that really should be the extent of it. I mean, if the FAQ is the heart of the board, the feedback is the soul. It's what sets this place apart from Artemis's site, Mystic Muse, etc. I'll admit, I don't always read FB, especially for a story I've read, oh, a dozen times (like Tempus Fugit), but I think it's important to have it and I can't imagine it not being an integral part of the stories here. Pens and the Completed Archives are forums. It's a two-way street, a conversation, and many, many of you can testify to how leaving a comment or getting feedback on a story you've posted makes you feel included, etc. I feel sad about the idea of someone new to the board heading straight to the eBooks, downloading them, reading through them and not understanding how important that fellowship is.

2) Pens/Completed Archives and Mods workload. I worry that the time spent converting fics to eBooks will be taken from the time spent converting the current crop of messed up fics to BBCode (and aren't there still fics on the old board that haven't even been ported over?). I mean, some of the most popular stories that come up time and time again in "most recommended" lists are still in the old code (W/T Season 3 is still not fixed last time I checked) and forget reading feedback in any old story—completed or active—it's impossible because of the wonky code.
eBooks are all fine and good, but what about the stories online? Shouldn't the mods energy be funneled into improving and maintaining the board and not creating things that will take traffic away from the board? The only way I can get around this idea is if authors that wanted their stories presented as eBooks self-submitted and they could upload with little to no mod help. Otherwise, I think it's a waste of the mods time to work on a project that doesn't improve the actual board. I'd so much rather people be able to hop, skip and jump around the board, finding one beautiful story after another than have a handful of eBooks available from a small community of mostly active authors to download. The board is more than just what's going on right now, it has "generations" of history that should get equal attention from the people charged with the boards' upkeep.

3) Distribution. Look, I'm not naive, I know it's completely easy to make anything posted online into an ebook, and I have no problem with people who tell me that they've saved Neverland to a Word file because I know they're using it for their own personal use and aren't likely to be posting it anywhere else, however, the idea of my work floating around in a nicely formatted eBook gives me a bit of the wiggins. I'm super selective about where I've posted—Pens and Artemis's site are the only two—and I'd hate to have people not even know about Pens because they got Neverland as an eBook from a friend. I want people here, reading, becoming part of the community. I think that's important and I'm not likely to want my work in eBook from because of that. I value the connection on Pens.

4) Authors. For the longest time, the vast majority of completed fics that are continually brought up as "most recommended" are by authors who are no longer active on the board. These are the stories that undoubtably will be requested in eBook form. Are mods going to actively try and get these people to opt in? How are mods going to handle the requests for these stories? And what of the active authors who decide against putting their works out in eBook from? I can imagine that getting awkward if readers were persistent.
Also, I know a lot of authors derive pleasure from seeing comments to their completed fics, or in seeing that the hit count is going up in things they did long ago. They'll never even know if people are reading their works with eBooks and it might discourage or dissuade some from posting new work.

5) Editing. If authors' works are converted to eBook form and they want to make a change to the work, either fix a typo or a story hole or whatever, how do they do that without having to reformat the whole thing? Again, worry about the work load, etc. for the mods.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I think eBooks are wonderful things, I enjoy the ones I have, but I don't know if they should be a priority for this board right now.

[BeMyDeputy]

As Kathryn highlighted, this needs to be an opt-in thing.

So, what would this look like? I imagine the easiest way to do it is to provide a) a location for people to upload and download the books, b) instructions and templates for converting fics and c) a thread, like beta pens, where authors who don't have the time/ability convert their own stories to find willing slaves, I mean, helpers.

As for the feedback, I think it is possible to attatch it as a series of appendicies. I'm working on a sample story doing that, and it really isn't hard. However, it's a brief story. For a story with a lot more feedback, I'd want to code something to fetch the comments for me.

One option, though I don't know how hard it is (not knowing the underlying infrastructure), would be to give each fic that was to be converted its own RSS feed; there are Calibre plugins that caread RSS feed. That would at least move the content over in total.

Of course, I've only been thinking about this for like a day, and I'm sure Foo's been on it for a tad longer.

(Foo, have youlooked into the fanfic downloader plugin for calibre? We could check if it could be made to work with PENS).

ETA:

Well, it seems that I was writing this on my phone and somehow missed Heather's post. But the idea I outlined for how this could work would address some of her concerns (again, I'm just talking here: I'm mod, this wasn't my idea, and to top it all off I'm still relatively new around here).

But it turns out that I like talking, so I'll think out loud about each of Heather's points.

Feedback: Here I just plain agree with Kathryn and Heather (Heather, I know I owe you two chapters worth of fb for Neverland, but I haven't forgotten). Feedback matters to a story. I mean, I know I have at least one short piece that's around 2,000 words that has 8,000 words of me replying to feedback, plus I don't know how much (because I never word counted) how much in feedback itself. I'm still working out a way to port feedback over in a manner that is both clean and efficient, but it's super easy--once you have the content in a text file of some sort--to keep the feedback with the stories.

Mod Workload: As I suggested above, I think that the onus should be on the author to provide the ebook. Certainly, setting the whole thing up will take mod time up front, and some to keep it going. But drastically less than if we ask them to do the conversions themselves. This also allows for crowdsourcing the workload while maintaining quality control: an author could ask for help porting stories into books, but would be responsible for applying a stamp of approval (preferably after at least glancing at the thing).

Distribution: From the start, the distribution thing gave me pause. Because yes, once you package it all up into a DRM-free ebook, it's much easier for it to spread without you having control of it. There are some things we can do, like put in the template links to the original story, as well as big fat notices of where it originally came from. In fact, depending on how you copy the information, each chapter can link back to it's original post. But you do lose some control; whether someone is willing to give up that control should be up to the author.

Authors: I think the only ebooks that the board hosts should be ones where the author actively opts in. Yes, a lot of the super-popular stories were written by people who aren't around anymore. And if we can't get in touch with them, we shouldn't host ebooks of their stuff. But since I think we should host instructions on how to take a word document and convert it into an ebook, that would help readers make their own books out of the favorite fics. Sure, it's a fine line, but so is the difference between fair use and copyright infringement, and we toe that every day.

As for new feedback for old stories, I think that it's legit to have a comment at the end of a story saying "Did you enjoy this story? Let the author know at ." If I ever finish . . . um . . . anything . . . I would totally put that at the end. Because I totally get warm fuzzies from feedback. I want more warm fuzzies from posting stuff as ebooks, not fewer.

Editing: Once you have a properly formatted word document, it's very easy to make it into an ebook. So, assuming it's the author that's doing the ebook creating, if the author needs to change the ebook, it can be presumed that she* already has a properly formatted word document. (*And yes, I know guys write, too, but dammit, I'll be damned if I write "they" to refer to one person.) Make the edits in there, and with fewer than five additional minutes, you have a corrected ebook. At that point, the mods just have to replace the old one. Sure, that means that the previous ebook editions aren't as up to date, but that's a consequence of a series of static documents instead of one dynamic one. And not too terribly much work for the mods, unless they plan to use some really weird system for document hosting.

So, those are my expanded thoughts.

[Katharyn]

Distribution: From the start, the distribution thing gave me pause. Because yes, once you package it all up into a DRM-free ebook, it's much easier for it to spread without you having control of it. There are some things we can do, like put in the template links to the original story, as well as big fat notices of where it originally came from. In fact, depending on how you copy the information, each chapter can link back to it's original post. But you do lose some control; whether someone is willing to give up that control should be up to the author.

Authors: I think the only ebooks that the board hosts should be ones where the author actively opts in. Yes, a lot of the super-popular stories were written by people who aren't around anymore. And if we can't get in touch with them, we shouldn't host ebooks of their stuff. But since I think we should host instructions on how to take a word document and convert it into an ebook, that would help readers make their own books out of the favorite fics. Sure, it's a fine line, but so is the difference between fair use and copyright infringement, and we toe that every day.

I've added my emphasis to the key parts of this in bold.

There's nothing stopping a person from using Google to figure out how to change a document to e-book now, they can do that for themselves (in fact some people have asked me for work docs to make that easier than taking it from the threads - which I refused for all reasons given previously.)

However I absolutely do not think that - in an 'opt-in' system where an Author chooses not to do so that the board itself should tell people how to do it anyway. The info is out there, let people go find it themselves if they are determined. I don't want it to be 'semi-official' by having the board saying 'if your fave author has declined to make this an e-book then here's how to do it anyway.' I'm sure that's not what you meant, but it is the logical conclusion of putting those instructions here and (I'm not saying this next part about you BMD) I would find it disrespectful of the authors choice if it did appear on the board in that way.

In fact it would make the choice utterly meaningless.

Katharyn

[EasierSaid]

However I absolutely do not think that - in an 'opt-in' system where an Author chooses not to do so that the board itself should tell people how to do it anyway.

Again, agreeing with Kathryn. It's not much of an opt-out if it's "recommended" by the powers that be. Very, "Sorry, that's not available as an eBook. *WINK*" Do we really need to tell people how to do this? I mean, if it's the boards position to show people how to create their own eBooks, why even bother uploading eBooks to download? Would be far less work at that point to make it into a de facto DIY situation, where readers eBook whatever they want and authors/mods have no say, which, of course, is the state of the world right now; anyone can make any fic into a Word doc/eBook, it's just not officially endorsed by the authors/Mods/xita. (Of course, I hope the board doesn't "officially endorse" because while I again don't mind people creating a Word file of my work for their own use, it weirds me out to think that an eBook version—replete with typos, etc.—could be floating around, posted who knows where, without my knowledge and that the one place where I post the story endorses that.)

BeMy, I like the idea of linking back to the story for commenting purposes, I just worry that some people—especially new people—won't understand how valuable that interaction is. Again, just my concern. I love this place and love the community aspect of it and just want to do everything possible to preserve and promote that part of the board. I mean, I can't tell you how many people have commented on Neverland saying, "I started reading over on Chris's site but then the lack of updates drove me over here and now I'm a commenting fool." (Okay, maybe not the fool part, but you get the general idea.) I often wonder how many of those people would have stayed lurkers if they weren't exposed to the FB as they read through the stories. I think seeing FB compels a lot of people to join in and I think that's great. The stories are awesome; the people are awesome-er. (And BeMy, no worries about the FB - I just hope you read the updates and liked them! )

[BeMyDeputy]

In fact it would make the choice utterly meaningless.

The reason that, to me, it doesn't make the choice meaningless is the notion of distribution versus personal use. If you opt-in and provide an ebook, the board distributes it, and that distribution is endorsed by the author. If you fail to opt-in, but the board has instructions on how to make an ebook, then people can make their own copies for their own use. Instructions that include a template that says all over it that the story is originally from this board and is part of this community. Any distribution at that point is not endorsed by the author. Maybe it says something about the fact that I grew up with a librarian for a parent, but that seems like all the difference in the world: one sounds like a library, and the other sounds like copyright infringement.

At the same time, I can see why you would feel like having complete, step-by-step instructions sitting a few clicks away from a fic you deliberately do not make available as an ebook would feel like disrespectful and demoralizing.

So, let's put the idea of including instructions on the board away for now. We just add a place for authors to put their own ebooks. The only endorsement the board offers is the conformation that yes, it was the original author who submitted the book. Authors can include distribution information right in the book that says that the story is only to be distributed via x, y, and z channels.

Does that sound better to those of you who would not opt in?

love this place and love the community aspect of it and just want to do everything possible to preserve and promote that part of the board. I mean, I can't tell you how many people have commented on Neverland saying, "I started reading over on Chris's site but then the lack of updates drove me over here and now I'm a commenting fool." (Okay, maybe not the fool part, but you get the general idea.)

To be fair, Neverland isn't done. When it is, will you put the full version on Artemis's site (the other place you said you post)? Because if you do, this impetus to come here will go away; people will be able to read the whole thing there. At least with an ebook, you can pull a Reading Rainbow and put "If you liked this, you should try PENS" at the end of the story.

Also to be fair, I, as mentioned, have never had anything of mine go to the magical land of completed fics; everything I've finished is a short piece and in an active thread. I have no experience with what happens in terms of feedback there, with how that feedback shapes a story and a relationship between the reader and the author. But somehow it doesn't feel like it could be the same sort of relationship as when the story is being written. Maybe it's my own inability to leave detailed feedback there; I know I gush . . . well, everywhere, really, about Waiting for Dani, but my actual feedback on the thread amounts to "if you really want to know what I think, I would need to comment the shit out of a word document for in-line annotations, and then I'd need to go on for a few thousand words . . . suffice it to say I really love this."

(And BeMy, no worries about the FB - I just hope you read the updates and liked them!)

This? This here? This is exactly why I would opt-in. I want people to read what I write. I want to give them every opportunity to let me know what they think, but to me, control of where it goes is less important than people actually reading it. Maybe it's a symptom of me being newish to the board, and maybe it's because I haven't finished anything yet, and maybe it's some consequence of me not being nearly as big a gun as Kathryn and Heather are, but it's how I feel. As I was reminded via email today, I certainly have friends--dear friends--because of feedback on my writing. And that's a big part of why I'll keep writing here. But I'll still put QoH into an ebook when it's done, even if I can't distribute it here.


Foo, I hope I'm not making you go all with all this. I just really like to talk.

Kate

[Foomatic]

ETA: Kate I didn't see your post, so I didn't address it.

Heather and Kathryn, thank you for your input.  This idea will not work without authors’ approval, so I appreciate you taking the time and providing your opinions.
 
My thought process for adding ebooks was:
 
1.        Permission was needed from the author before any ebook was made available for download on the KB.  The responsibility for gaining permission would be placed on the person requesting the fic.  They would need to contact the author, then have the author contact one of the mods by PM or email giving their blessings.  This gets complicated if the author can’t be contacted; which honestly, I can’t come up with a better solution than not making an ebook since there’s no permission.
2.       Once permission was given, the mods would take it from there.  If the requested fic happened to be one that needed to be fixed, then we’d go in, take out the HTML, then create the ebook; essentially killing two birds with one stone.  The final product would be linked in the original thread in the PENS archive (since we’re only doing completed fics), not on a separate forum or ebook thread, that way there is still a chance a has the option to read it on PENS as well.

 
Initially, that’s what I had in my head.  If an author doesn’t want their work available in ebook, then it would not be made available on the KB.   I honestly thought it would be that simple, but valid concerns have been brought up.
 
1.       Feedback– That’s a tough one.  I respect its importance, how it has shaped our community, and how it truly sets us apart from any other fan fic forum.  However, I just don’t see it being part of an ebook.  It’s still available in the forums and the original threads, and can be referenced by a link in the ebook itself if someone would like to read it.  Now, that’s just my opinion, but if there was an unobtrusive way of incorporating feedback into the ebooks, I would be open to that, but I imagine it would make the relative ease of converting the fic into an ebook a bit more complicated, which would require more mod time.
2.        Mod Workload – Kajun has been an absolute trooper in converting old fics.  She’s done the bulk of them, and should receive the all the credit.  As far as I can see, she has been diligently keeping up with the fic fixing.  Me on the other hand?  I’ll readily admit that I should be more active presence here, because I love this place, but it can’t always be my first – even second - obligation.  I can, however, make more of an effort.  There are only three of us, with a large workload, so any changes that need to be made to the board are done by request only.  There hasn’t been a real sense of urgency to get everything fixed instantly (unless I’m reading everyone wrong?).  We do try to address issues in a timely manner and we appreciate everyone’s patience when something can’t be addressed immediately.  This would be by request only, and only if the requestor manages to secure permission from the author.
3.       eBook conversion – In no way was this thread intended to discuss the actual ebook conversion, but it just kinda happened.  Conversion should be done by the mods, for quality control.  If we are making them available here, we should be responsible for converting them into ebooks, that way we can maintain the integrity of the fics.  Anyone who can Google can figure out how to make an ebook, but that’s something we should not be advertising here, nor should we accept ebook files from outside sources.

 
The bottom line is that if authors don’t want their fics as eBooks, then we don’t make them available as eBooks.  This wasn’t going to be a free-for-all-convert-everything-under-the-sun-into-an-ebook type deal.  I can’t speak to people doing it on their own, but you can be sure you won’t find them here on the KB if that is your wish.  The majority of this board is built on the wonderful stories our authors have contributed,  and I don’t want to jeopardize what we have by taking something that isn’t mine and changing it into something the author didn’t want.  

[BeMyDeputy]

2.       Once permission was given, the mods would take it from there. 

Well, scrap . . . huge chunks of what I said. I mean, if the onus is on the mods to make these, then there's no reason to have instructions at all.

nor should we accept ebook files from outside sources

Do you consider the original author an "outside source"? Because I don't expect the mods to include feedback, but I would go to the trouble of collecting it for my own stories. I'm not saying you'd have to host it, of course. But I'd offer. And it wouldn't be the tipping point for whether or not I okayed the ebook; I'd say yes either way. I might look at you funny if you turned down the one I made, but that's about it. And you're like, eight hours north of me, so it's not like you'd be able to see that, anyways.